Hey y'all. I picked up Elves and played it for the first time at GP Indy this weekend. For a subpar player like me this was obviously a pretty awful idea, but I ended up going 5-3 with it (was 5-1 at one point!), feeling like the deck is in a great position right now and would probably have day 2'd if the pilot had been better. Really excited to get some reps in with the deck and make it my baby instead of switching decks for every big tournament. My list is pretty typical GW:
My memory of the day is kind of foggy. As far as the deck goes, I would say the choices served me very well except my added 'tech' of Fiend Hunter, which I only brought in occasionally but never used.
My first match was against W/R Prison or Sun and Moon, so I was already glad that I brought a deck that didn't fold to Blood Moon. I remember losing the first game basically to a Blood Moon anyway, by happening to only draw lands that were dead to it and being unable to blow it up. I won the next two games pretty handily though, by being unhampered by Blood Moon AND blowing it up, and recovering after sweepers in one game and negating them with board protectors in the other.
I don't remember who I played in round two, even though it was at table 1(!). I won though!
In match three I was against Affinity. Game one I just rolled him. Game two he played a Ghitapur Aether Grid, but was only able to use it that turn to ping one Elf to death. On my turn I played Fracturing Gust because I simply had to get rid of it. I don't remember if I also had a Chord in hand; I think I did but wanted to save it for Kataki. In hindsight I should have used that instead for Rec Sage, so that he would commit to the board more to make Fracturing Gust the blowout it deserves to be. Instead, he played a Ravager next turn and I greedily Chorded for a Rec Sage to blow it up (Kataki would not have done much here), and he ended up winning off of a Plating on an Inkmoth. I felt simply terrible after losing that game with so much hate, but game 3 went my way pretty easily once I Chorded up Kataki pretty quickly.
Round four was a heartbreaking loss to Valakut. I honestly don't know if he ran Scapeshift or TTB, as all I ever saw were hardcast Prime Times to get the Valakuts. Game one he just rolled me after I played into his sweepers, but game two I pulled out by being able to Chord up an Ezuri in response to a sweeper and pump the team out of its range. Seriously, there are a lot of silver bullets in the sideboard but you almost always want Ezuri anyway! Game three was the worst. I naturally drew my Aven Mindcensor, which completely turns off a bunch of his deck (Prime Time, Summoner's Pact, fetches, etc), and was trying to decide every turn whether to play it or wait to catch him with his pants down, and whether or not to tap out for threats in the meantime. Turned out I played it perfectly, and on his fifth turn or so with five lands in play (hadn't used his land drop yet) he says I'll fetch for a Mountain and cast Primeval Titan. I get ahead of myself and flash in the Mindcensor, so he says "well let's see if I get the sixth land for Titan then." At this point because he short-cutted, I feel I have the option to choose whether it's in response to the fetch or the Titan, and I stupidly let him fetch. So he plays the Titan into the Mindcensor then, and what does he find in the top four cards of his library? TWO VALAKUTS. Of course. Even with the mistake, I go from essentially a guaranteed win to an immediate loss, as he plays Mountain for the turn for two triggers, blowing up the bird and easily killing me from there.
I didn't recognize the mistake until later, and I actually still felt good about the day at this point, as I've won two hard-fought matches and should've won three with a completely new deck. And it has been fun as hell. Round five I'm against a rogue green red deck with Blood Moon, sweepers, and weird-ass threats like Hellrider, Boggart Ram-Gang and Giant Solifuge. Game one I am somehow dead to Blood Moon AGAIN and get beat down by the odd baddies. I am convinced my tournament is over and that R/G Hellrider is the next Death's Shadow, but games 2 and 3 I win pretty handily by being more resilient to Blood Moon and sweepers and Ezuri pumps.
Round six is against Merfolk, and the way it plays out I felt like I could never lose to that deck. Game one I can't find Ezuri or Chord but I end up with three Archdruids in play and just overpower his guys. Game two he gets out a decent Master of Waves, which I feel like is the only way we lose to Merfolk. I never find a Path (couldn't find one all day), but I wait until he taps out, CoCo at the end of his turn, and Chord on my turn. I planned to get Fiend Hunter to deal with the Elemental tokens, but I sat and did some math for a second and had way beyond lethal with just getting Ezuri. So, I deed it.
Amazingly I'm at 5-1 after missing approximately 9,001 Nettle Sentinel triggers, but the wheels start to fall off the wagon here. Round seven I have absolutely no chance against what was ultimately the 15th place deck, G/R Ponza (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=111993). Game one I don't have an answer for his first sweeper and he plays an Inferno Titan, taking out two x/1s and pinging me. TIL that Inferno Titan's three damage can be split three ways! FML. Game two I actually get a head of steam going as he had to mull to five. Because of his mull and how bad the matchup seems, I don't play around sweepers and he doesn't seem to have them. Two or possibly even one turn away from me killing him, he topdecks Bonfire of the Damned and has me feeling like Brian Kibler. My board is wiped, and I've been on one land the entire game until he finally Stone Rains my Forest. I never see another land, and he wins what was actually a close game with me having zero permanents on the board.
At this point, my only losses are to incredibly bad luck and an incredibly bad matchup. The Ponza deck ran 1 Magma Jet main with its 3 Bonfires, and had 3 Sudden Shock and 2 Anger of the Gods out of the sideboard. Not to mention Inferno Titans. Rather than cry about it, I am on to round seven, my first of two must-wins for day two, but unfortunately it doesn't happen. I even got to play against Merfolk again! And in game one he has no chance as I easily Chord for Ezuri for the win. Game two I probably make a critical error, and with an Archdruid out pumping my team I run some Elves into his board. He blocks and everything trades, and I am left with I believe two elves to his empty board. But in the end I think this was a mistake, as I could've waited until the next turn, used the additional elves to produce additional mana off of Archdruid and Chord for a lethal Ezuri. Instead, he rebuilds and draws straight gas while I end up with 6 land on the table and another one in hand. Still, our boards are about even, but the turn before I kill him he drops Spreading Seas for the win. I was able to Chord in response to his attack, but I had STUPIDLY sided out my Reclamation Sage (and it didn't even occur to me at the time that Sage would've given me the win here), so I lost. Game three was more land flooding for me, and he overpowered me with Elemental tokens after I failed to ever see a Path.
So, that was my short but ultimately very fun journey. I look forward to playing and maybe even actually getting good at the deck. I do want to try Shaman of the Pack, but I also didn't feel like I ever really NEEDED them, as when my board was built up I was able to win by attacking. Also I was thankful to have the white cards out of the sideboard, which felt like a HUGE advantage throughout the day, and I was also happy that my mana was resilient to Blood Moon, which I haven't figured out how to achieve with an Abzan build yet.
I super duper incredibly regret not running Copperhorn Scouts instead of Nettle Sentinels like I learned to do here, but that is mainly due to my own missing of the Sentinel triggers, lol. Anyway, hope you made it through all this, and I'd love to answer questions or take feedback.
The main gist is that right now Modern is a little sturdier and less explosive, so you probably want Silhana Ledgewalker over Kor Spiritwalker. I think if you go with 4 Ledgewalker, it has an implication on sideboard Glistener Elfs as well. On the one hand, you may not need them to race because you might dodge non-interactive combo altogether. But on the other hand, in game 1 you have ZERO creatures that can be Path'd, Bolted, or Fatally Pushed, so opponents may be more likely to side those out, making the Infectious Elf a good option. I'm still on the fence.
I'm also on the fence as to whether this deck will be a good pick for SCG Indy. Thoughts? Cards that make me nervous are Liliana of the Veil, Blessed Alliance, Blood Moon, and Engineered Explosives. Leyline answers Liliana, but I don't think we would bring it in against a deck that ran Blessed Alliance. Against Blood Moon we're stuck with Seal of Primordium, or we can try the plan I saw once of running 4 Noble Hierarchs and 4 Natural State. Hierarchs are a decent hedge against sacrifice cards and Blood Moon, actually. Explosives will pretty much wreck our day I think, just have to hold stuff back and play smart.
Not sure the formatting is right, but it's pretty typical other than the Silhana/Spiritwalker 2/2 split. I always have a hard time choosing between those but maybe the split is right. Spiritwalker is just so powerful though. The main craziness appears in that new sideboard tech of 4 Glistener Elf. Not sure what matchup that shores up though, but it would seem to give you a pretty damn fast kill. Anyway, I'm wondering if a list like this would be good for SCG Indy this weekend, as I think the deck would be in a decent spot right now in this meta, or if the build should be altered somewhat to adjust for the new Death's Shadow meta that is sure to be upon us.
Back to the question:
At what point do we intentionally draw the game? Do we wait for a state where our opponents seem likely to win, or do we use an early opportunity for a 7 card mulligan.
Somewhere in the middle, imo. Not too early because a counterspell or creature removal sends you packing, and especially in game one, you really want to win the pre-sideboarded game.
But if you're running Dig Through Times like I'm positing and you go off without a win con but with one of those in your hand, there's nothing wrong with trying to win but risking a draw.
In the event that you don't have the gas and are going for the draw, usually you'd wait it out to try and find the win-con, but if you're dead on the board you obviously shoot for the draw. You might also do this if you like had to mulligan to 5 or 4 or something, in order to restart at 7 cards.
What I can't figure out today is, what advantage does Worldgorger.dec have over Tin Fins? They both use Entomb, up to 8 copies of a 2-mana reanimation spell, and Tin Fins wins right there with Griselbrand, whereas Worldgorger requires another card in hand (or graveyard) to either be the win-con or find it.
I think you just answered your own question. That said, Johnny's everywhere are rejoicing. Let them have their day in the sun.
Haha, this is ultimately true, but as you can see above, my inner Johnny came out a little bit. If there's any possible advantage, I think it's that you have room for 4x Careful Study and 4x Worldgorger in the Dragon.dec, which you don't really have room for in Tin Fins, leaving you more reliant on Entomb. But I was probably right the first time about their not being any real advantage.
I did a TON of goldfishing on this yesterday with two types of lists, Reanimator inspired lists and Tin Fins inspired lists. I'd encourage everyone sharing lists here to goldfish them a lot and see how you feel. For me, the results were that I could find no advantage over traditional Reanimator lists by going with the Worldgorger version. You're essentially wasting deck space by making Worldgorger your non-Gris win con over the stuff they normally play, like Tidespout Tyrant. This ultimately means that you either have to shave combo pieces, or shave permission, which makes Griselbrand a worse play. It is nice to have more of an instant win to the deck, but it simply isn't worth it IMO.
I did end up coming up with a hybrid-ish version that might have some advantages over each.
This way, you get the speed advantage over traditional reanimator (which is the only reason I can come up with to run Worldgorger), and your advantage over Tin Fins is that less of the overall deck is actually dedicated to going off, so you can run 4 Worldgorger and 4 Careful Study and not rely solely on Entomb as an enabler. This is crucially important too because with this set up, you usually need an Entomb for Oona to win once you're going off. This allows the deck to dedicate only one card to the win-con, not wasting spots on X spells, and I think adds a lot to the consistency.
4x Dig Through Time is an adoption from Omniscience decks. I'm not sure it's better than having some number of Intuitions. Intuition is better mid-combo because you can generally guarantee a win, whereas I've whiffed a few times with DTT mid-combo. But DTT has been a little bit better pre-combo due to its cheaper cost, and being a lot better when you're missing both pieces of the combo. I think that the better pre-combo card is the one to include, since you can always combo out for the draw, whereas if you can't combo off at all you lose.
Another thing I want to test is including maybe a couple of Griselbrands, which make the Careful Studies better. It's hard to fit them in though, since I'm already running less lands than I'd ideally want to (it's not so bad with the Probes though).
I'm planning on going to Indy and would LOVE some feedback on this build. Any feedback is appreciated, but if someone wants to test it or has tested other builds I would really appreciate hearing about it.
What I can't figure out today is, what advantage does Worldgorger.dec have over Tin Fins? They both use Entomb, up to 8 copies of a 2-mana reanimation spell, and Tin Fins wins right there with Griselbrand, whereas Worldgorger requires another card in hand (or graveyard) to either be the win-con or find it.
That is the original list of timo who took down GP ghent. I prefer the list with burning wish. Provides more outs in game 1 against deck with hatebears cause they play pyroclasm.
Thanks. Not having a Grim Tutor, is there any Wish target that would be a decent enabler for the combo? Often I end up Infernal Tutoring for a Ritual or LED or something; are there any cards that would allow Wish to function like that?
Tombstalker and Dark Confidant are almost total opposites of sorts. Tombstalker is a card that kills your opponent. Dark Confidant plays completely different in that it pulls you ahead from a neutral position that you have brought about.
I understand that many players are hesitant to play Dark Confidant with Force of Will, Jace, Tombstalker, and so forth. I don't suggest playing Tombstalker with Dark Confidant because it offers a different game plan than Dark Confidant and I see them as conflicting. The decision not to play both has very little to do with the damage from the Confidant trigger.
I see your point here, however I could see a deck that would want both. Bob wants to see cheap spells and Tombstalker would like you to have a full graveyard, which cheap spells are conducive to. I get that Tombstalker is often a finisher in a creature-light deck, whereas Bob is often in aggro so you can win before the damage kills you, but Tombstalker could also serve an aggro function in a faster creature deck. Just a thought.
For those who don't want to click it's essentially Prosak's list but -4 Preordain +3 Burning Wish +1 discard spell and a Wish board. I like it because it's sort of half way between ANT and TES and gives you another way to find a Tendrils off of an Ad Naus. In goldfish testing I still often fizzle with Prosak's list after casting Ad Naus because you need to find the Tendrils itself or Tutor+LED (or go off with an LED in play, which sometimes backfires if you lack an initial mana source post-Ad Naus).
Just adding Burning Wishes and the Wish board adds so many more lines of play to the deck, for better and worse. I often fizzle due to user error but with practice it's getting better.
In a reasonably sized tournament several months ago I was dead with no hope playing UW Control when my Bob-wielding opponent flipped his only 2 Tombstalkers on consecutive turns to lose on the spot. That may have been game 3 of our win-and-in round, not sure.
I would imagine the situational improbability argument no longer persuades him
I guess it might not if he doesn't understand statistics. I also once lost in a top 8 of a local tournament to a player who used Engineered Plague on Wizard to kill his own Bob when he had lethal on the table but would've died to a Tombstalker reveal. Guess what his next card was? So, if you're going to win anyway you can also kill your own Bob to avoid the potential flip. But for the most part, if it's statistically unlikely, anecdotes don't change that.
However, if you're taking the deck to an SCG or something and have nine matches coming up, so might get smacked by it a couple of times.
I agree with the "if you have the turn 1 just go for it" and this is how I play regular old Tin Fins as well. Even if it leaves me with zero cards in hand. With this build that will obviously come up more often, so I think a lot of it is just a matter of preference. I'd prefer my deck not put me in that position as much (I'd rather use a discard spell first turn and do that turn 2), but if I have the opportunity to combo off I almost always do. Game one people generally don't mull to Force, and game two people will often mull to a Relic of Progenitus or something and it won't matter.
Wow, that's a big catch. I had realized you can't do that with Goryo's vengeance, but forgot that Shallow grave didn't target. This is 100% correct however and makes a huge difference.
I tried to point this out in my last post too but I guess it got lost in the noise. #CreditWh*re
The Rock is an old deck that evolved into many different things, and I think that Nic Fit and Junk are two of them. As such, it is kind of an odd thread to have, but it seems that for the most part Junk comes up here so it works. But yeah, Nic Fit and even 4c Loam are Rock decks, which are just very versatile midrange decks with green and black cards.
I like the Tin Fins deck, but I'm not remotely tempted to switch to it. I consistently beat it with my Reanimator deck when I playtest against my friend's Tin Fin deck. I'll gladly sacrifice a turn or two of pure speed for consistency and Force of Will.
I'm not sure using Petals requires a full switch to Tin Fin, but with how tight the build of Reanimator is, I think you have to be careful how much consistency you sacrifice before you might as well switch.
Deck A beating Deck B is not really a good reason to pick A over B, unless the meta is all Deck B. Otherwise you just pick what's best against the field.
As far as what is too far, it's not the Petals themselves that necessitate a switch or anything. But it's just that, if you're not going to have the space for disruption to either protect your combo or screw up your opponent's, why not just try to win the turn Griz comes into play?
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
4 Heritage Druid
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Collected Company
8 Forest
4 Razorverge Thicket
4 Horizon Canopy
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Pendelhaven
2 Fracturing Gust
1 Chameleon Colossus
1 Spellskite
1 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Path to Exile
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Eternal Witness
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
My memory of the day is kind of foggy. As far as the deck goes, I would say the choices served me very well except my added 'tech' of Fiend Hunter, which I only brought in occasionally but never used.
My first match was against W/R Prison or Sun and Moon, so I was already glad that I brought a deck that didn't fold to Blood Moon. I remember losing the first game basically to a Blood Moon anyway, by happening to only draw lands that were dead to it and being unable to blow it up. I won the next two games pretty handily though, by being unhampered by Blood Moon AND blowing it up, and recovering after sweepers in one game and negating them with board protectors in the other.
I don't remember who I played in round two, even though it was at table 1(!). I won though!
In match three I was against Affinity. Game one I just rolled him. Game two he played a Ghitapur Aether Grid, but was only able to use it that turn to ping one Elf to death. On my turn I played Fracturing Gust because I simply had to get rid of it. I don't remember if I also had a Chord in hand; I think I did but wanted to save it for Kataki. In hindsight I should have used that instead for Rec Sage, so that he would commit to the board more to make Fracturing Gust the blowout it deserves to be. Instead, he played a Ravager next turn and I greedily Chorded for a Rec Sage to blow it up (Kataki would not have done much here), and he ended up winning off of a Plating on an Inkmoth. I felt simply terrible after losing that game with so much hate, but game 3 went my way pretty easily once I Chorded up Kataki pretty quickly.
Round four was a heartbreaking loss to Valakut. I honestly don't know if he ran Scapeshift or TTB, as all I ever saw were hardcast Prime Times to get the Valakuts. Game one he just rolled me after I played into his sweepers, but game two I pulled out by being able to Chord up an Ezuri in response to a sweeper and pump the team out of its range. Seriously, there are a lot of silver bullets in the sideboard but you almost always want Ezuri anyway! Game three was the worst. I naturally drew my Aven Mindcensor, which completely turns off a bunch of his deck (Prime Time, Summoner's Pact, fetches, etc), and was trying to decide every turn whether to play it or wait to catch him with his pants down, and whether or not to tap out for threats in the meantime. Turned out I played it perfectly, and on his fifth turn or so with five lands in play (hadn't used his land drop yet) he says I'll fetch for a Mountain and cast Primeval Titan. I get ahead of myself and flash in the Mindcensor, so he says "well let's see if I get the sixth land for Titan then." At this point because he short-cutted, I feel I have the option to choose whether it's in response to the fetch or the Titan, and I stupidly let him fetch. So he plays the Titan into the Mindcensor then, and what does he find in the top four cards of his library? TWO VALAKUTS. Of course. Even with the mistake, I go from essentially a guaranteed win to an immediate loss, as he plays Mountain for the turn for two triggers, blowing up the bird and easily killing me from there.
I didn't recognize the mistake until later, and I actually still felt good about the day at this point, as I've won two hard-fought matches and should've won three with a completely new deck. And it has been fun as hell. Round five I'm against a rogue green red deck with Blood Moon, sweepers, and weird-ass threats like Hellrider, Boggart Ram-Gang and Giant Solifuge. Game one I am somehow dead to Blood Moon AGAIN and get beat down by the odd baddies. I am convinced my tournament is over and that R/G Hellrider is the next Death's Shadow, but games 2 and 3 I win pretty handily by being more resilient to Blood Moon and sweepers and Ezuri pumps.
Round six is against Merfolk, and the way it plays out I felt like I could never lose to that deck. Game one I can't find Ezuri or Chord but I end up with three Archdruids in play and just overpower his guys. Game two he gets out a decent Master of Waves, which I feel like is the only way we lose to Merfolk. I never find a Path (couldn't find one all day), but I wait until he taps out, CoCo at the end of his turn, and Chord on my turn. I planned to get Fiend Hunter to deal with the Elemental tokens, but I sat and did some math for a second and had way beyond lethal with just getting Ezuri. So, I deed it.
Amazingly I'm at 5-1 after missing approximately 9,001 Nettle Sentinel triggers, but the wheels start to fall off the wagon here. Round seven I have absolutely no chance against what was ultimately the 15th place deck, G/R Ponza (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=111993). Game one I don't have an answer for his first sweeper and he plays an Inferno Titan, taking out two x/1s and pinging me. TIL that Inferno Titan's three damage can be split three ways! FML. Game two I actually get a head of steam going as he had to mull to five. Because of his mull and how bad the matchup seems, I don't play around sweepers and he doesn't seem to have them. Two or possibly even one turn away from me killing him, he topdecks Bonfire of the Damned and has me feeling like Brian Kibler. My board is wiped, and I've been on one land the entire game until he finally Stone Rains my Forest. I never see another land, and he wins what was actually a close game with me having zero permanents on the board.
At this point, my only losses are to incredibly bad luck and an incredibly bad matchup. The Ponza deck ran 1 Magma Jet main with its 3 Bonfires, and had 3 Sudden Shock and 2 Anger of the Gods out of the sideboard. Not to mention Inferno Titans. Rather than cry about it, I am on to round seven, my first of two must-wins for day two, but unfortunately it doesn't happen. I even got to play against Merfolk again! And in game one he has no chance as I easily Chord for Ezuri for the win. Game two I probably make a critical error, and with an Archdruid out pumping my team I run some Elves into his board. He blocks and everything trades, and I am left with I believe two elves to his empty board. But in the end I think this was a mistake, as I could've waited until the next turn, used the additional elves to produce additional mana off of Archdruid and Chord for a lethal Ezuri. Instead, he rebuilds and draws straight gas while I end up with 6 land on the table and another one in hand. Still, our boards are about even, but the turn before I kill him he drops Spreading Seas for the win. I was able to Chord in response to his attack, but I had STUPIDLY sided out my Reclamation Sage (and it didn't even occur to me at the time that Sage would've given me the win here), so I lost. Game three was more land flooding for me, and he overpowered me with Elemental tokens after I failed to ever see a Path.
So, that was my short but ultimately very fun journey. I look forward to playing and maybe even actually getting good at the deck. I do want to try Shaman of the Pack, but I also didn't feel like I ever really NEEDED them, as when my board was built up I was able to win by attacking. Also I was thankful to have the white cards out of the sideboard, which felt like a HUGE advantage throughout the day, and I was also happy that my mana was resilient to Blood Moon, which I haven't figured out how to achieve with an Abzan build yet.
I super duper incredibly regret not running Copperhorn Scouts instead of Nettle Sentinels like I learned to do here, but that is mainly due to my own missing of the Sentinel triggers, lol. Anyway, hope you made it through all this, and I'd love to answer questions or take feedback.
The main gist is that right now Modern is a little sturdier and less explosive, so you probably want Silhana Ledgewalker over Kor Spiritwalker. I think if you go with 4 Ledgewalker, it has an implication on sideboard Glistener Elfs as well. On the one hand, you may not need them to race because you might dodge non-interactive combo altogether. But on the other hand, in game 1 you have ZERO creatures that can be Path'd, Bolted, or Fatally Pushed, so opponents may be more likely to side those out, making the Infectious Elf a good option. I'm still on the fence.
I'm also on the fence as to whether this deck will be a good pick for SCG Indy. Thoughts? Cards that make me nervous are Liliana of the Veil, Blessed Alliance, Blood Moon, and Engineered Explosives. Leyline answers Liliana, but I don't think we would bring it in against a deck that ran Blessed Alliance. Against Blood Moon we're stuck with Seal of Primordium, or we can try the plan I saw once of running 4 Noble Hierarchs and 4 Natural State. Hierarchs are a decent hedge against sacrifice cards and Blood Moon, actually. Explosives will pretty much wreck our day I think, just have to hold stuff back and play smart.
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Silhana Ledgewalker
2 Kor Spiritdancer
4 Gladecover Scout
4 Slippery Bogle
Spells(4)
1 Open the Armory
3 Path to Exile
Enchantments (24)
4 Rancor
2 Gryff's Boon
1 Spirit Link
4 Spider Umbra
4 Hyena Umbra
1 Spirit Mantle
4 Ethereal Armor
4 Daybreak Coronet
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Razorverge Thicket
4 Horizon Canopy
1 Plains
1 Forest
3 Temple Garden
1 Path to Exile
1 Spirit Link
4 Glistener Elf
2 Suppression Field
3 Stony Silence
4 Leyline of Sanctity
Not sure the formatting is right, but it's pretty typical other than the Silhana/Spiritwalker 2/2 split. I always have a hard time choosing between those but maybe the split is right. Spiritwalker is just so powerful though. The main craziness appears in that new sideboard tech of 4 Glistener Elf. Not sure what matchup that shores up though, but it would seem to give you a pretty damn fast kill. Anyway, I'm wondering if a list like this would be good for SCG Indy this weekend, as I think the deck would be in a decent spot right now in this meta, or if the build should be altered somewhat to adjust for the new Death's Shadow meta that is sure to be upon us.
Somewhere in the middle, imo. Not too early because a counterspell or creature removal sends you packing, and especially in game one, you really want to win the pre-sideboarded game.
But if you're running Dig Through Times like I'm positing and you go off without a win con but with one of those in your hand, there's nothing wrong with trying to win but risking a draw.
In the event that you don't have the gas and are going for the draw, usually you'd wait it out to try and find the win-con, but if you're dead on the board you obviously shoot for the draw. You might also do this if you like had to mulligan to 5 or 4 or something, in order to restart at 7 cards.
Haha, this is ultimately true, but as you can see above, my inner Johnny came out a little bit. If there's any possible advantage, I think it's that you have room for 4x Careful Study and 4x Worldgorger in the Dragon.dec, which you don't really have room for in Tin Fins, leaving you more reliant on Entomb. But I was probably right the first time about their not being any real advantage.
I did end up coming up with a hybrid-ish version that might have some advantages over each.
4x Worldgorger Dragon
1x Oona, Queen of the Fae
Instants: 15
4x Brainstorm
4x Dig Through Time
4x Entomb
4x Dark Ritual
4x Careful Study
4x Ponder
4x Thoughtseize
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Cabal Therapy
Enchantments: 8
4x Animate Dead
4x Dance of the Dead
4x Polluted Delta
2x Scalding Tarn
2x Marsh Flats
4x Underground Sea
1x Island
1x Swamp
This way, you get the speed advantage over traditional reanimator (which is the only reason I can come up with to run Worldgorger), and your advantage over Tin Fins is that less of the overall deck is actually dedicated to going off, so you can run 4 Worldgorger and 4 Careful Study and not rely solely on Entomb as an enabler. This is crucially important too because with this set up, you usually need an Entomb for Oona to win once you're going off. This allows the deck to dedicate only one card to the win-con, not wasting spots on X spells, and I think adds a lot to the consistency.
4x Dig Through Time is an adoption from Omniscience decks. I'm not sure it's better than having some number of Intuitions. Intuition is better mid-combo because you can generally guarantee a win, whereas I've whiffed a few times with DTT mid-combo. But DTT has been a little bit better pre-combo due to its cheaper cost, and being a lot better when you're missing both pieces of the combo. I think that the better pre-combo card is the one to include, since you can always combo out for the draw, whereas if you can't combo off at all you lose.
Another thing I want to test is including maybe a couple of Griselbrands, which make the Careful Studies better. It's hard to fit them in though, since I'm already running less lands than I'd ideally want to (it's not so bad with the Probes though).
I'm planning on going to Indy and would LOVE some feedback on this build. Any feedback is appreciated, but if someone wants to test it or has tested other builds I would really appreciate hearing about it.
Thanks. Not having a Grim Tutor, is there any Wish target that would be a decent enabler for the combo? Often I end up Infernal Tutoring for a Ritual or LED or something; are there any cards that would allow Wish to function like that?
I see your point here, however I could see a deck that would want both. Bob wants to see cheap spells and Tombstalker would like you to have a full graveyard, which cheap spells are conducive to. I get that Tombstalker is often a finisher in a creature-light deck, whereas Bob is often in aggro so you can win before the damage kills you, but Tombstalker could also serve an aggro function in a faster creature deck. Just a thought.
For those who don't want to click it's essentially Prosak's list but -4 Preordain +3 Burning Wish +1 discard spell and a Wish board. I like it because it's sort of half way between ANT and TES and gives you another way to find a Tendrils off of an Ad Naus. In goldfish testing I still often fizzle with Prosak's list after casting Ad Naus because you need to find the Tendrils itself or Tutor+LED (or go off with an LED in play, which sometimes backfires if you lack an initial mana source post-Ad Naus).
Just adding Burning Wishes and the Wish board adds so many more lines of play to the deck, for better and worse. I often fizzle due to user error but with practice it's getting better.
I guess it might not if he doesn't understand statistics. I also once lost in a top 8 of a local tournament to a player who used Engineered Plague on Wizard to kill his own Bob when he had lethal on the table but would've died to a Tombstalker reveal. Guess what his next card was? So, if you're going to win anyway you can also kill your own Bob to avoid the potential flip. But for the most part, if it's statistically unlikely, anecdotes don't change that.
However, if you're taking the deck to an SCG or something and have nine matches coming up, so might get smacked by it a couple of times.
I tried to point this out in my last post too but I guess it got lost in the noise. #CreditWh*re
Deck A beating Deck B is not really a good reason to pick A over B, unless the meta is all Deck B. Otherwise you just pick what's best against the field.
As far as what is too far, it's not the Petals themselves that necessitate a switch or anything. But it's just that, if you're not going to have the space for disruption to either protect your combo or screw up your opponent's, why not just try to win the turn Griz comes into play?