I am having a very close look at Tel-Jilad Justice too, in addition to Nature's Claim. Basically I am thinking about running 2 Viridian Corrupters main, and siding how ever many Tel-Jilad Justice I can fit in. As you say the scry seems great at the end of their turn before you go for it. It might also help dig out a Blighted Agent when you need it too.
Casting an instant at the end of their turn, then untapping and swinging for the win, seems better. With Seal they know the Chalice is about to get zapped, which might change what they do in their turn. If you are going to run a 2 mana answer, an instant just seems better for that kind of situation. If you can do it all in the same turn then it doesn't matter.
As a +2 in the SB, in a UG list, thinking about Chalice of the Void, which would you all recommend over Nature's Claim OR in addition to Nature's Claim:
I would think that if you are going to play a 2 mana answer to Chalice of the Void you would want it to be an instant so I don't really like Seal of Primordium. I am also thinking that Blood Moon is more popular than ever so enchantment removal is important too. I mention the enchantment removal if you are planning to replace some Nature's Claims. If they are in addition to claim then it seems less important.
I still think Viridian Corrupter and Wild Defiance are the main answers to a Chalice on 1, but there does seem to be some merit to a 2 mana answer also.
Can someone explain me why everybody is cutting down on Groundswells? Cant we control Landfall with the fetches or whats the thing I am missing?
I have always been a fan of 4 x Groundswell, but the numbers seem to vary from list to list. Perhaps if we really want to win quickly against the Eldrazi decks, the plan should be something like 4 x Mutagenic Growth, 4 x Groundswell, 4 x Might of Old Krosa and 2 x Become Immense.
I agree. I've always used 4 mutagenic growths and I think they'll play a larger role in the new meta. If we drop the spell pierce would we replace it with more Nature's Claim or hurkyl's recall
Hurkyl's Recall looks good, since they usually set Chalice of the Void to 1. Play it at the end of their turn, then untap and swing for the win. And it is great against affinity and lantern.
Some thoughts about Infect now that the dust has settled from the Pro Tour.
Aside from the ridiculous amount of land hate that is around now weakening Inkmoth Nexus, I think the scariest development is that 3 of the Eldrazi top 8 decks were running 4 x Chalice of the Void main.
Chalice of the Void requires answers, and the best that we have are Viridian Corrupter and Wild Defiance. I will be running 2 of both main. There is also the possibility of a big hit with Become Immense, if you don't run into Relic of Progenitus. I suppose Spell Pierce out of the side is something to consider also, but it does feel like it is going to be a dead card some of the time.
The inclusion of Gut Shot in the sideboard of these Eldrazi decks makes me want to run 4 x Mutagenic Growth. Not only is it the perfect defense against Gut Shot, it combines well with Wild Defiance, and also can really help win the game early. Winning the game early seems more important than it has ever been!
Does Tom gives his opinion about Grisly Salvage ? I used to play 3 to help keeping borderline hands (two lands and no creatures) and fill the graveyard for Becomme Immense.
He doesn't mention Grisly Salvage, but he does mention Funeral Charm in the comments, so perhaps the charm will make an appearance in Cincinnati.
An interesting thing he did mention was about Vampiric Link, which is kind of cool because if you cast it on an opponent's creature, you are the one that gains the life, which is particularly interesting if you put it on Eidolon of the Great Revel, as you will gain life every time you or your opponent takes damage from it.
Can someone please post Tom Ross's GB Infect List so we can see his starting point. I have only seen the version from the MOCS.
Here it is. He does stress that the deck will evolve before he plays it in SCG Cin. In the comments Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth was discussed and Tom thought it was a good idea to run 1, possibly to replace 1 of the Twilight Mires. Chris Fennell ran 4 Groundswell and Tom has opted for 4 Might of Old Krosa instead. It seems to me that Groundswell is definitely better in a deck that isn't running Blighted Agent, where casting pumps as late as possible becomes more important.
I am very excited to see Phyrexian Crusader get some decent attention, as I have believed for a long time that GB Infect is a genuine option. It has popped up from time to time over the years, but now it's really going to get a good work over
Has anyone considered a single life from the loam anywhere in the 75? Recurring lands, fueling become immense and buying back inkmoths seems like big game.
It is interesting that the mana base is essentially green, mainly relying on fetching Canopy Vista for white mana. I guess that solves the problem with double green for Avatar of the Resolute.
I like distortion strike better than Rancor too because it's just straight up unblockable. Inkmoth can't get the rebound effect from this though can it?
In the case of Distortion Strike, the rebound ability has a triggered ability (ie. At the beginning of your next upkeep, you may cast this card from exile without paying its mana cost.), so you can actually respond to that triggered ability and activate Inkmoth Nexus in time to cast Distortion Strike targeting Inkmoth Nexus.
On the topic of Rancor vs. Distortion Strike, I think they are both solid choices. Rancor is great because it has a habit of hanging around for the whole game, providing you with evasion whenever you need it. It is also better with Blighted Agent because it is a reasonable pump spell. If you are running any Ichorclaw Myr Rancor works well their too. Of course Distortion Strike allows for genuine unblockability, and also triggers Wild Defiance. So I think they are both really good, and it is a matter of play style, personal preference and the particular build of the deck, as to which one is better.
It's a good point that Hangarback Walker doesn't help with Self-Inflicted Wound. I'm not really that enthusiastic about the Walkers in heroic, at least in a fast version of the deck.
I stopped playing heroic, but then I started running into Red Aggro and GR Devotion everywhere, and much less UBx control. I really like Logan Mize's UW build with 4 main Ordeal of Heliod. Seems very good against Red Aggro, especially with a turn 1 Loganna-band Trailblazer into turn 2 Ordeal. We will see how it goes!
Ok, so as mentioned Hangarback Walker is being included in the lists that are doing well. They seem good against sacrifice/edict effects. Also the Ordeals work well with them, they crack faster than on a normal (non-heroic) creature, and they add extra counters to the Walker. Dromoka's Command can give them an extra counter too. They also give us some sort of recovery plan after a successful board wipe or removal spell, for getting in those last few points of damage with flying thopters.
Is that it? Have I missed anything about the Walkers in this deck?
I notice that Logan Mize's latest list has 4 Walkers in the sideboard:
I am assuming they come in against anything controlling, such as Abzan or UBx, to help cope with edict effects, board wipes and removal. What do we side out for them, Seeker of the Way and/or Lagonna-Band Trailblazer? Should they be main deck as with other lists?
There is also Deglamer and Unravel the Æther which on occasion can be useful for getting rid of a Wurmcoil Engine, without leaving behind any tokens.
I still think Viridian Corrupter and Wild Defiance are the main answers to a Chalice on 1, but there does seem to be some merit to a 2 mana answer also.
Hurkyl's Recall looks good, since they usually set Chalice of the Void to 1. Play it at the end of their turn, then untap and swing for the win. And it is great against affinity and lantern.
Aside from the ridiculous amount of land hate that is around now weakening Inkmoth Nexus, I think the scariest development is that 3 of the Eldrazi top 8 decks were running 4 x Chalice of the Void main.
Chalice of the Void requires answers, and the best that we have are Viridian Corrupter and Wild Defiance. I will be running 2 of both main. There is also the possibility of a big hit with Become Immense, if you don't run into Relic of Progenitus. I suppose Spell Pierce out of the side is something to consider also, but it does feel like it is going to be a dead card some of the time.
The inclusion of Gut Shot in the sideboard of these Eldrazi decks makes me want to run 4 x Mutagenic Growth. Not only is it the perfect defense against Gut Shot, it combines well with Wild Defiance, and also can really help win the game early. Winning the game early seems more important than it has ever been!
He doesn't mention Grisly Salvage, but he does mention Funeral Charm in the comments, so perhaps the charm will make an appearance in Cincinnati.
An interesting thing he did mention was about Vampiric Link, which is kind of cool because if you cast it on an opponent's creature, you are the one that gains the life, which is particularly interesting if you put it on Eidolon of the Great Revel, as you will gain life every time you or your opponent takes damage from it.
4 Glistener Elf
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Phyrexian Crusader
4 Plague Stinger
1 Dryad Arbor
Lands (21)
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Overgrown Tomb
2 Twilight Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Pendelhaven
3 Rancor
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Become Immense
1 Dismember
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Spellskite
2 Viridian Corrupter
1 Illness in the Ranks
1 Vampiric Link
1 Carrion Call
1 Disfigure
4 Nature's Claim
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
I am very excited to see Phyrexian Crusader get some decent attention, as I have believed for a long time that GB Infect is a genuine option. It has popped up from time to time over the years, but now it's really going to get a good work over
8 Forest
1 Plains
4 Canopy Vista
1 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
Creatures 22
4 Hangarback Walker
2 Abzan Falconer
4 Avatar of the Resolute
4 Den Protector
4 Managorger Hydra
4 Servant of the Scale
4 Hardened Scales
4 Dromoka's Command
3 Feat of Resistance
1 Inspiring Call
4 Valorous Stance
3 Arashin Cleric
1 Hidden Dragonslayer
1 Evolutionary Leap
1 Feat of Resistance
2 Inspiring Call
2 Plummet
2 Surge of Righteousness
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Flooded Strand
It is interesting that the mana base is essentially green, mainly relying on fetching Canopy Vista for white mana. I guess that solves the problem with double green for Avatar of the Resolute.
On the topic of Rancor vs. Distortion Strike, I think they are both solid choices. Rancor is great because it has a habit of hanging around for the whole game, providing you with evasion whenever you need it. It is also better with Blighted Agent because it is a reasonable pump spell. If you are running any Ichorclaw Myr Rancor works well their too. Of course Distortion Strike allows for genuine unblockability, and also triggers Wild Defiance. So I think they are both really good, and it is a matter of play style, personal preference and the particular build of the deck, as to which one is better.
I stopped playing heroic, but then I started running into Red Aggro and GR Devotion everywhere, and much less UBx control. I really like Logan Mize's UW build with 4 main Ordeal of Heliod. Seems very good against Red Aggro, especially with a turn 1 Loganna-band Trailblazer into turn 2 Ordeal. We will see how it goes!
Is that it? Have I missed anything about the Walkers in this deck?
I notice that Logan Mize's latest list has 4 Walkers in the sideboard:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=89387
I am assuming they come in against anything controlling, such as Abzan or UBx, to help cope with edict effects, board wipes and removal. What do we side out for them, Seeker of the Way and/or Lagonna-Band Trailblazer? Should they be main deck as with other lists?