Gitaxian Probe is definitely a viable choice. For me it is more of an issue of fitting it in, and also since I run 4 Apostle's Blessing, 4 Mutagenic Growth and 2 Dismember(with 2 in the side), I am not keen on running any more cards that require phyrexian mana. I could put it in the side, but there is not much room there either.
I think there are many viable Infect builds, and there is a lot of choice there to build a deck that suits your preferences and playing style.
Edit: One thing I will add though, is that Apostle's Blessing should be a 4 of in any Infect deck that runs 4 Inkmoth Nexus, with the exception of a deck that is running 4 Phyrexian Crusader as it has protection from white. Apostle's Blessing is so important because it can be cast with Inkmoth Nexus, and when mana is tight that can be the difference between winning or getting blown out.
Congrats on winning the tournament! Blade Splicer is seeing play in Kiki Pod, but particularly you will see them in Death and Taxes (which was probably the cloudshift deck you played) and the similar Hate Bear decks. I usually bring in all my Dismembers for those match-ups. Against Death and Taxes, when they do their flicker tricks with Restoration Angel and Cloudshift, remember in an emergency you can use Vines of Vastwood to stop them from targeting their own creature.
Accumulating land buffs is just so good in those long control match-ups. It is hard to see it when you are just looking at a deck list, but when you experience a win after turn 10 on the back of those land buffs, I am sure you agree it is quite amazing. Cruel Control can be very hard to beat without Cathedral.
@Drinkard
Yeah Sylvan Scrying is just the bomb. I have become more and more convinced that Inkmoth Nexus is the most important creature for Infect, and the more you can run the better!
What are you boarding out against Pod? And what do you take out against Affinity? I feel like everything in the main is good in that matchup. Aside from Living End and Gyoro's Vengence decks, when would you board in Tormod's Crypt?
Usually Mutagenic Growth gets removed first, unless there is a reason to keep it in such as Electrolyze or Pyroclasm. Mutagenic Growth is great game 1 when you are trying to throw everything at them and they have not yet boarded in all their removal and hate. Also the 2 Dismember can come out if not needed or if being replaced by something that does a similar job such as Nature's Claim. I don't usually remove Rancor because I view it as pseudo card advantage which is something infect lacks. I also rarely remove Groundswell, because I view the card as a major win condition of the deck.
So against Pod I board out 4 Mutagenic Growth for 2 Nature's Claim and 2 Dismember as there are already 2 Dismember in the main deck. I am toying around with the idea of removing 2 Groundswell for the last 2 Nature's Claim. I don't really want to remove anything else but ensuring the deck can deal with Spellskite and Birthing Pod seems extremely important. This is the worst deck for compromising our game plan, but the amount of hate they have for us requires a severe sideboard plan.
The list I'm planning on running is basically Ultra Magnus's 75, but I'm curious as to why Might of Old Krosa gets cut over Groundswell for Giant Growth. I get that Giant Growth is probably necessary if burn is a prevalent removal method in the meta, but in a deck that doesn't run fetches it would seem to me that Groundswell is less likely to reach +4/+4 over the course of a longer game, whereas Might of Old Krosa will always have that option available should you choose to use it as such.
It is more to do with the fact that Groundswell can be cast for maximum value after blocks. In a deck with limited evasion, you may need to pump the guy that got through. Also with decks like Splinter Twin and UWR Control, you constantly find yourself with no idea if they are going to cast Cryptic Command, Deceiver Exarch or Pestermite before you even attack. Throw in there any creature with flash like Snapcaster Mage, Restoration Angel, Aven Mindcensor or Vendilion Clique and casting Might of Old Krosa during your main phase starts to look a little risky. Being able to attack first and wait until after blocks just seems to make sense in a deck that isn't running Blighted Agent. Quite often with Groundswell you get the chance to use it early when you have been playing your land anyway, or if the game goes long you just hang on to an extra land until you are ready.
Infect had a few results to report last week. I managed to Top 8 a Premier event again, this time finishing 2nd. All 3 of my Top 8 matches were against BG which was a little unfair, but I took out 2 of them before losing in the final.
Looks like he went for the 2-2 split between Might of Old Krosa and Giant Growth as Omni suggested was an option. Also only 2 Rancor main deck, with 2 in the side which is interesting, opting to go for 2 Ranger's Guile instead.
The next list by shufflerpwned went 4-0 in a daily and is quite different from what we have been seeing. I am wondering if it was one of you guys, because there has been some discussion here about some of the choices.
Wow, it has a GW mana base, but the only white card it runs is 3 Qasali Pridemage out of the side. It is a mainly green deck with Noble Hierarch, fetch lands and Gitaxian Probe, all some of the ideas that have been talked about recently. Hunt the Hunter in the side looks cool, which is why the deck is running Blight Mamba.
Inkmoth Nexus is the only money card in MonoG, and is currently just under 5 tickets each. The whole deck will cost about 40 tickets, unless you run something like Spellskite, which makes it more expensive.
Burn used to be a good matchup. Well, not anymore. Eidolon of great reveal is basically game. If a burn player has that card in the deck the matchup has become atrocious since is basically RR, infect player loses the game.
I was having this same issue with Eidolon of the Great Revel until I realized that it is an enchantment creature. So if I saw it game 1, then I sided in Nature's Claim to kill it. Obviously Dismember is bad against burn, so I didn't want to use that. Nature's Claim can also double as emergency life gain for us in this match-up, since you can remove your own Rancor or artifact creature and gain 4 life. The main reason though is to kill the Eidolon or even Blood Moon if they happen to side it in.
I find that if I draw Apostle's Blessing I quite often just win the game, I give my guy protection from Artifacts and swing for the win. I bring in 4 Nature's Claim, which I hold for cards like Cranial Plating and Spellskite, or just to slow down a crazy fast start. I also bring in 1 Creeping Corrosion which has been great to turn a lost game around. It is very satisfying to watch their whole board blow up!
For that reason I will walk off Monogreen infect for a while.
Come on Waterd, you just went 5-0 in a premier event. Having some bad days is just Magic, if anything you have had an amazing run with Infect! Don't let a few bad results discourage you from playing the best deck in Modern
Looks like it came 1st in the rounds then ended up 5th in the top 8 after losing to Affinity. Really amazing going undefeated in the rounds! Is that you again Watered? How many accounts do you have lol.
In the MonoG list 4 Apostle's Blessing are essential because of running 8 colorless land. I used to run Gitaxian Probe in my UG list and it certainly was helpful at times, but eventually was replaced with more pump/protection. I think the card is still good though, it is just hard to fit in. Dropping to 20 land seems risky since green mana sources are very limited already or if you cut down on the number of Cathedral of War, you might as well go UG instead. Looks like you could still fit 2 probes in the MonoG list though, in the flex slots you mentioned.
slaughter horn can be countered! it can have the target switched! and it is not a good card for the deck. Neither is ghor clan or whatever standard trash you're trying to jam into a half baked infect deck to lower the price of a t2 deck
Technically the bloodrush ability of Slaughterhorn can be countered by something like Trickbind or Squelch, because they counter activated abilities. However it can't be countered by cards like Mana Leak and Remand, because Slaughterhorn itself does not go on the stack, just the bloodrush ability. Also Spellskite can't successfully redirect the bloodrush ability, because Spellskite is not attacking and the card states that the target must be an attacking creature. That is why the card is appealing, but it is just very difficult to fit in with all the other great 1 mana pump spells we have access to.
I think it is good that Mono Green Cathedral has surfaced as something new in the infect universe and prompted discussions. I look at MonoG, UGx and BG as all viable competitive options. There is no doubt though that UGx does have some serious raw power
For me the exalted trigger's are a bonus to what else the card can do, not the sole reason to run a card, i run hierarch over birds because she has the exalted trigger but to me that's a nice bonus to her ability to produce the 3 colors
Yeah, UGx Infect is far more explosive and any exalted triggers compliment the main pump spells, where as MonoG has traded some of that explosiveness for accumulating hard to remove land buffs over the course of the game, which gives it this strange end game where your infect guy can be quite big every time it swings without using any cards in hand. As such the deck has this different feel about it, compared with the Infect decks I am used to piloting.
My main issue is how many spellskites have started showing up in my meta, every deck is either running them MD or bringing them in for G2 except for burn.
Opposing main deck Spellskites have basically made main deck hate for it a must. I am running 2 Dismember main deck for it and Melira, Sylvok Outcast. With MonoG, accumulating land buffs over the course of the game can help win against an opposing Spellskite, especially when you have managed to get a few poison in early before the kite hit the table. I would so like to fit Slaughterhorn in the list somehow too, since it can't be redirected by Spellskite or countered, but I have never been able to fit it in. Although it would be hilarious winning against an opposing kite with Slaughterhorn and a pile of exalted triggers!
Magnus, excellent write-up. My next question to you or really anyone else involves spellskites. I sorta went half-in on the skite plan and currently have two in my board. They've over-performed to be honest. What are your thoughts on this card (and wild defiance) against certain decks.
Spellskite is a great card in terms of the role it has played for Infect and other combo decks since it was first printed. The main reason that I don't run it is because it costs 2 mana and is not reactive, if it is in your hand it is not doing anything. That is not to say that it can't work in an Infect deck, but since there are so many options that are reactive such as Vines of Vastwood, Apostle's Blessing, Guttural Response, and Ranger's Guile (and Dispel / Spell Pierce for blue), I have found it difficult to fit into the list. The same is true with Wild Defiance, again it is not reactive, but once on the battlefield it can certainly have a positive impact. I can't say these cards are wrong, but I tend to favor reactive cards.
@Ultra_Magnus
Excellent report, and I appreciated hearing from someone who switched to mono-green for non-budgetary reasons. An oft repeated mantra of people who have a lot of experience playing the deck has been that it has a long game/is not simply a "glass cannon" (debates about exactly what glass cannon means aside)
This has also been my experience, playing with the U/G version, with notable exception of the combo mirror vs storm or similar.
I have been playing Infect religiously since day one of Scars, and during that time there have been 2 Infect myths that have come up over and over again:
1) You have to win quickly with Infect or you can't win at all.
This is just false. Although it is true that all green based Infect decks will win quickly at times, the deck is more than capable of winning at any stage of the game, and this is certainly not limited to the MonoG version.
2) It takes no skill to pilot an Infect Deck.
It takes very little skill to win on turn 2 or 3 when it is handed to you on a plate, and during the course of a long tournament the deck will have some of these quick wins. The real skill is in how to play the long game, and the only way to achieve the consistency you need to make a big top 8, is by mastering this 'long game' that apparently Infect doesn't have. The deck takes an incredible amount of skill to pilot effectively, with consistency over the course of a tournament. What is easy to do with Infect is to make a mess of it. The deck can fall apart so easily with just one incorrect decision. As such, Infect is a deck that requires precise and correct decision making with harsh consequences for any mistakes.
I hope to get your opinion on why the mono-green list you piloted cannot be improved by the addition of fetchlands/hierarch/more colors.
I think that running 4 Cathedral of War makes it more suited to a MonoG list, since the deck is running 8 land that tap for colorless. In a way, Cathedral is taking the place of Noble Hierarch in this list. Hierarch is more susceptible to removal, but Cathedral rarely gets removed. This makes accumulating exalted triggers over the course of a long game more reliable.
Instead of looking at MonoG Cathedral as a mono deck, it is probably more useful to look at it as a 2 color deck, green and colorless. The cards that don't require green mana are extremely important for the consistency of the deck, such as Ichorclaw Myr, Necropede, Apostle's Blessing, and Mutagenic Growth. Trying to replace any of these cards with cards that require colored mana could prove problematic for the mana base.
All this is not to say that you couldn't run a UG list with 4 Cathedral of War, but it does seem that MonoG is the most suited choice for such a deck. Even running a few fetch lands in a MonoG deck has it's positives and negatives, but could work. I would be most interested to hear how any of these experiments go.
I am a big fan of all flavors of green based Infect, and rather than thinking that MonoG Cathedral is currently the best, I look at it as a new viable version that has surfaced along with the UG, BUG and BG versions of the deck that have already proven themselves. I think MonoG Cathedral is doing well at the moment for 2 reasons, it copes well in a blue heavy meta, which is where we find ourselves since the banning of Deathrite Shaman, and it doesn't break the budget.
Some time ago Wizards stopped reporting all daily results online. Now they only report 1 daily event per day, per format. Unfortunately this means that the smaller archetypes such as Infect, get less information and less encouragement. All Premier events still get reported though, and thus have become a regular, reliable and competitive source for meta data, including smaller archetypes.
After Deathrite Shaman was banned in early February Infect did seem to drop off the face of the earth, until at the end of March when MonoG Cathedral made the top 8 of a couple of Modern Premier events. Waterd then picked up the deck and piloted it to 5 Premier top 8s in 3 weeks, including winning 1 of them: http://www.mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=196&meta=51&f=MO
That was enough for me to take notice, I mean a few players sneaking through to the top 8 with Infect is one thing, but the same player hitting 5 Premier top 8s in 3 weeks ... There was something going on here worth taking notice of.
So I shelved my fetches and forked out 0.10 tickets for 4 Cathedral of War and started playing what appeared to be a much weaker version of Infect, compared with what I had been playing. I have to say that when I first started playing it, the deck did seem like a pile of fluff. Slowly though I began to adjust my playing style to not just focus on going for the combo win, but to realizing that the deck had another mode, the long control game. Of course you could still go for the combo when the opportunity presented itself, but as we have been talking about in this thread, against certain match ups and in certain situations, you could let Cathedral of War and Pendelhaven do most of the work, while sitting back on your pumps and protection spells to counter your opponent when they tried to interfere with you. The land buffs meant that you didn't necessarily have to take the initiative in a pump vs. removal war, your opponent did.
It also meant that your Infect guys could take down blockers without wasting pump spells. For example, in a recent Premier game I played against UWR control, I had 2 Cathedral of War and 1 Pendelhaven along with a couple of forests and an Inkmoth Nexus on the board. My opponent was forced to chump block the Inkmoth with a Celestial Colonnade, and without even casting a pump spell the Inkmoth killed the Colonnade and survived, because with the land buffs it was a 4/5.
Taking what I have learned about playing this deck I managed to top 8 a Premier event on the weekend, finishing 4th with this list:
I decided to go with 4 Giant Growth instead of Might of Old Krosa, so that I could get maximum damage after blocks, but more importantly inline with the idea of the long control game, I wanted to have more cards that would keep my guys alive, especially against Lightning Bolt. I think Might of Old Krosa is more suited to decks running Blighted Agent and Plague Stinger, where you know you can get through, and are trying to win more explosively.
I chose to only run 1 Pendelhaven, because green mana is so valuable in a deck with 8 lands that tap for colorless, and drawing a 2nd Pendelhaven can compromise that.
In the Sideboard, I ran 2 Guttural Response, which was absolutely gold against the URx match ups (Twin, Delver and Control). For Infect decks that don't run blue, I cannot recommend this card enough.
Against BG The Rock, along with the 2 Sylvan Scrying, I have been boarding in all 4 Dismembers, to remove their threats and buy time. It is especially good to remove a Dark Confidant with either Dismember or Necropede, because that is their main card draw engine. I beat a BG deck in the rounds (2-0) with this plan, and lost to the same guy in the top 4 (1-2), who then went on to win the tournament.
Creeping Corrosion from the side, rescued a game for me against Affinity. Even though we run artifact creatures too, it is easy enough to play around and provides a much needed safety valve, in combination with the 4 Nature's Claim from the side.
I am really enjoying playing this deck, but it does take a shift in the usual way Infect is played. It is still fast, but has this long control game we keep talking about.
Come on Darth, MonoG Cathedral is the real deal now
The big issue with MonoG is that it runs 8 colorless lands, which is why 4 Apostle's Blessing is essential, because you can cast it for colorless to keep your guy alive or to provide a way through blockers. Also I think it really is a good idea to run 2 Dismember in the main deck, because of all the main deck Spellskites and Melira, Sylvok Outcasts that are in popular decks at the moment. Again it can be cast for colorless and provide a way through the one blocker they left untapped.
I do like the idea of Gitaxian Probe though, card draw and information are certainly beneficial to the plan of the deck. I just can't figure out where to fit it in.
I think branching out is a great idea but not because of one card in standard. I also really don't see any other Hexproof deck besides Naya and Selesnya being competitive in larger tourneys.
Sure, I see where you are coming from. I am going to try Bant out anyway and see how it goes, as I like the idea of being able to respond to sacrifice and enchantment removal with cheap counters. Also I think if I construct the deck very similar to a Selesnya build, with the addition of Aqueous Form and some counter spells in the side board, then it can't really be much worse than Selesnya and should benefit from having more evasion and some additional answers.
It seems alright, but a bit fragile. If it wasn't an enchantment creature it would be more useful, since game 2 and 3 they will probably side out creature removal in favor of enchantment removal.
I think there are many viable Infect builds, and there is a lot of choice there to build a deck that suits your preferences and playing style.
Edit: One thing I will add though, is that Apostle's Blessing should be a 4 of in any Infect deck that runs 4 Inkmoth Nexus, with the exception of a deck that is running 4 Phyrexian Crusader as it has protection from white. Apostle's Blessing is so important because it can be cast with Inkmoth Nexus, and when mana is tight that can be the difference between winning or getting blown out.
http://www.wizards.com/magic/digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/7143419
With a couple of 4-0 results for MonoG Cathedral and a 3-1 for the UG Æther Vial version that Izzetmage reported a few posts back.
Congrats on winning the tournament! Blade Splicer is seeing play in Kiki Pod, but particularly you will see them in Death and Taxes (which was probably the cloudshift deck you played) and the similar Hate Bear decks. I usually bring in all my Dismembers for those match-ups. Against Death and Taxes, when they do their flicker tricks with Restoration Angel and Cloudshift, remember in an emergency you can use Vines of Vastwood to stop them from targeting their own creature.
Accumulating land buffs is just so good in those long control match-ups. It is hard to see it when you are just looking at a deck list, but when you experience a win after turn 10 on the back of those land buffs, I am sure you agree it is quite amazing. Cruel Control can be very hard to beat without Cathedral.
@Drinkard
Yeah Sylvan Scrying is just the bomb. I have become more and more convinced that Inkmoth Nexus is the most important creature for Infect, and the more you can run the better!
I was running Autumn's Veil originally as an answer to counter spells, but I started running Guttural Response because of Cryptic Command, Electrolyze (You can stop the card draw), and Gifts Ungiven, along with any of the usual counter spells.
So against Pod I board out 4 Mutagenic Growth for 2 Nature's Claim and 2 Dismember as there are already 2 Dismember in the main deck. I am toying around with the idea of removing 2 Groundswell for the last 2 Nature's Claim. I don't really want to remove anything else but ensuring the deck can deal with Spellskite and Birthing Pod seems extremely important. This is the worst deck for compromising our game plan, but the amount of hate they have for us requires a severe sideboard plan.
Against Affinity I board out 2 Dismember and 3 Mutagenic Growth for 4 Nature's Claim and 1 Creeping Corrosion. Dismember is generally bad against aggro decks so it comes out.
As you mentioned 4 Tormod's Crypt comes in against Living End and Goryo's Vengeance. It also comes in against Storm and is used when they cast Past in Flames, or sometimes to slow down Pyromancer Ascension. It can also come in against Gifts Ungiven and Dredge Vengevine.
Edit: I just noticed the new art for Nature's Claim from Conspiracy. Much more colorful than the original, I might have to upgrade.
It is more to do with the fact that Groundswell can be cast for maximum value after blocks. In a deck with limited evasion, you may need to pump the guy that got through. Also with decks like Splinter Twin and UWR Control, you constantly find yourself with no idea if they are going to cast Cryptic Command, Deceiver Exarch or Pestermite before you even attack. Throw in there any creature with flash like Snapcaster Mage, Restoration Angel, Aven Mindcensor or Vendilion Clique and casting Might of Old Krosa during your main phase starts to look a little risky. Being able to attack first and wait until after blocks just seems to make sense in a deck that isn't running Blighted Agent. Quite often with Groundswell you get the chance to use it early when you have been playing your land anyway, or if the game goes long you just hang on to an extra land until you are ready.
Infect had a few results to report last week. I managed to Top 8 a Premier event again, this time finishing 2nd. All 3 of my Top 8 matches were against BG which was a little unfair, but I took out 2 of them before losing in the final.
http://www.wizards.com/magic/digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/7143337
13 Forest
4 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Pendelhaven
4 Glistener Elf
4 Ichorclaw Myr
4 Necropede
2 Dismember
4 Giant Growth
4 Groundswell
4 Mutagenic Growth
4 Rancor
4 Vines of Vastwood
1 Creeping Corrosion
2 Dismember
2 Guttural Response
4 Nature's Claim
2 Sylvan Scrying
4 Tormod's Crypt
Sylvan Scrying out of the side was again great against BG and UWR Control, to help find more Inkmoth Nexus. Against BG I sided out 4 Mutagenic Growth, and sided in 2 Dismember and 2 Sylvan Scrying. Against UWR Control I sided out 2 Dismember and 2 Ichorclaw Myr, and sided in 2 Guttural Response and 2 Sylvan Scrying.
Great_Lexx went 4-0 in a daily (is that any of you guys?), with the following list:
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/7143279
12 Forest
4 Inkmoth Nexus
2 Pendelhaven
4 Glistener Elf
4 Ichorclaw Myr
4 Necropede
4 Apostle's Blessing
2 Dismember
2 Giant Growth
4 Groundswell
2 Might of Old Krosa
4 Mutagenic Growth
2 Rancor
2 Ranger's Guile
4 Vines of Vastwood
2 Dismember
4 Nature's Claim
2 Rancor
2 Spellskite
4 Tormod's Crypt
1 Viridian Corrupter
Looks like he went for the 2-2 split between Might of Old Krosa and Giant Growth as Omni suggested was an option. Also only 2 Rancor main deck, with 2 in the side which is interesting, opting to go for 2 Ranger's Guile instead.
The next list by shufflerpwned went 4-0 in a daily and is quite different from what we have been seeing. I am wondering if it was one of you guys, because there has been some discussion here about some of the choices.
http://www.wizards.com/magic/digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/7143345
4 Inkmoth Nexus
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Pendelhaven
4 Razorverge Thicket
2 Temple Garden
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Blight Mamba
4 Glistener Elf
4 Ichorclaw Myr
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Groundswell
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Mutagenic Growth
4 Rancor
4 Vines of Vastwood
2 Wild Defiance
2 Dismember
2 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Hunt the Hunter
2 Pithing Needle
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Viridian Corrupter
Wow, it has a GW mana base, but the only white card it runs is 3 Qasali Pridemage out of the side. It is a mainly green deck with Noble Hierarch, fetch lands and Gitaxian Probe, all some of the ideas that have been talked about recently. Hunt the Hunter in the side looks cool, which is why the deck is running Blight Mamba.
Inkmoth Nexus is the only money card in MonoG, and is currently just under 5 tickets each. The whole deck will cost about 40 tickets, unless you run something like Spellskite, which makes it more expensive.
I find that if I draw Apostle's Blessing I quite often just win the game, I give my guy protection from Artifacts and swing for the win. I bring in 4 Nature's Claim, which I hold for cards like Cranial Plating and Spellskite, or just to slow down a crazy fast start. I also bring in 1 Creeping Corrosion which has been great to turn a lost game around. It is very satisfying to watch their whole board blow up!
Come on Waterd, you just went 5-0 in a premier event. Having some bad days is just Magic, if anything you have had an amazing run with Infect! Don't let a few bad results discourage you from playing the best deck in Modern
Looks like it came 1st in the rounds then ended up 5th in the top 8 after losing to Affinity. Really amazing going undefeated in the rounds! Is that you again Watered? How many accounts do you have lol.
In the MonoG list 4 Apostle's Blessing are essential because of running 8 colorless land. I used to run Gitaxian Probe in my UG list and it certainly was helpful at times, but eventually was replaced with more pump/protection. I think the card is still good though, it is just hard to fit in. Dropping to 20 land seems risky since green mana sources are very limited already or if you cut down on the number of Cathedral of War, you might as well go UG instead. Looks like you could still fit 2 probes in the MonoG list though, in the flex slots you mentioned.
I think it is good that Mono Green Cathedral has surfaced as something new in the infect universe and prompted discussions. I look at MonoG, UGx and BG as all viable competitive options. There is no doubt though that UGx does have some serious raw power
Yeah, UGx Infect is far more explosive and any exalted triggers compliment the main pump spells, where as MonoG has traded some of that explosiveness for accumulating hard to remove land buffs over the course of the game, which gives it this strange end game where your infect guy can be quite big every time it swings without using any cards in hand. As such the deck has this different feel about it, compared with the Infect decks I am used to piloting.
Opposing main deck Spellskites have basically made main deck hate for it a must. I am running 2 Dismember main deck for it and Melira, Sylvok Outcast. With MonoG, accumulating land buffs over the course of the game can help win against an opposing Spellskite, especially when you have managed to get a few poison in early before the kite hit the table. I would so like to fit Slaughterhorn in the list somehow too, since it can't be redirected by Spellskite or countered, but I have never been able to fit it in. Although it would be hilarious winning against an opposing kite with Slaughterhorn and a pile of exalted triggers!
Spellskite is a great card in terms of the role it has played for Infect and other combo decks since it was first printed. The main reason that I don't run it is because it costs 2 mana and is not reactive, if it is in your hand it is not doing anything. That is not to say that it can't work in an Infect deck, but since there are so many options that are reactive such as Vines of Vastwood, Apostle's Blessing, Guttural Response, and Ranger's Guile (and Dispel / Spell Pierce for blue), I have found it difficult to fit into the list. The same is true with Wild Defiance, again it is not reactive, but once on the battlefield it can certainly have a positive impact. I can't say these cards are wrong, but I tend to favor reactive cards.
I have been playing Infect religiously since day one of Scars, and during that time there have been 2 Infect myths that have come up over and over again:
1) You have to win quickly with Infect or you can't win at all.
This is just false. Although it is true that all green based Infect decks will win quickly at times, the deck is more than capable of winning at any stage of the game, and this is certainly not limited to the MonoG version.
2) It takes no skill to pilot an Infect Deck.
It takes very little skill to win on turn 2 or 3 when it is handed to you on a plate, and during the course of a long tournament the deck will have some of these quick wins. The real skill is in how to play the long game, and the only way to achieve the consistency you need to make a big top 8, is by mastering this 'long game' that apparently Infect doesn't have. The deck takes an incredible amount of skill to pilot effectively, with consistency over the course of a tournament. What is easy to do with Infect is to make a mess of it. The deck can fall apart so easily with just one incorrect decision. As such, Infect is a deck that requires precise and correct decision making with harsh consequences for any mistakes.
I think that running 4 Cathedral of War makes it more suited to a MonoG list, since the deck is running 8 land that tap for colorless. In a way, Cathedral is taking the place of Noble Hierarch in this list. Hierarch is more susceptible to removal, but Cathedral rarely gets removed. This makes accumulating exalted triggers over the course of a long game more reliable.
Instead of looking at MonoG Cathedral as a mono deck, it is probably more useful to look at it as a 2 color deck, green and colorless. The cards that don't require green mana are extremely important for the consistency of the deck, such as Ichorclaw Myr, Necropede, Apostle's Blessing, and Mutagenic Growth. Trying to replace any of these cards with cards that require colored mana could prove problematic for the mana base.
Then there is the consideration of non-basic/fetch land hate such as Blood Moon, Shadow of Doubt, Leonin Arbiter, Aven Mindcensor and Suppression Field. The MonoG list has certain advantages here against these cards, not to mention taking zero damage from the mana base.
All this is not to say that you couldn't run a UG list with 4 Cathedral of War, but it does seem that MonoG is the most suited choice for such a deck. Even running a few fetch lands in a MonoG deck has it's positives and negatives, but could work. I would be most interested to hear how any of these experiments go.
I am a big fan of all flavors of green based Infect, and rather than thinking that MonoG Cathedral is currently the best, I look at it as a new viable version that has surfaced along with the UG, BUG and BG versions of the deck that have already proven themselves. I think MonoG Cathedral is doing well at the moment for 2 reasons, it copes well in a blue heavy meta, which is where we find ourselves since the banning of Deathrite Shaman, and it doesn't break the budget.
Some time ago Wizards stopped reporting all daily results online. Now they only report 1 daily event per day, per format. Unfortunately this means that the smaller archetypes such as Infect, get less information and less encouragement. All Premier events still get reported though, and thus have become a regular, reliable and competitive source for meta data, including smaller archetypes.
That was enough for me to take notice, I mean a few players sneaking through to the top 8 with Infect is one thing, but the same player hitting 5 Premier top 8s in 3 weeks ... There was something going on here worth taking notice of.
So I shelved my fetches and forked out 0.10 tickets for 4 Cathedral of War and started playing what appeared to be a much weaker version of Infect, compared with what I had been playing. I have to say that when I first started playing it, the deck did seem like a pile of fluff. Slowly though I began to adjust my playing style to not just focus on going for the combo win, but to realizing that the deck had another mode, the long control game. Of course you could still go for the combo when the opportunity presented itself, but as we have been talking about in this thread, against certain match ups and in certain situations, you could let Cathedral of War and Pendelhaven do most of the work, while sitting back on your pumps and protection spells to counter your opponent when they tried to interfere with you. The land buffs meant that you didn't necessarily have to take the initiative in a pump vs. removal war, your opponent did.
It also meant that your Infect guys could take down blockers without wasting pump spells. For example, in a recent Premier game I played against UWR control, I had 2 Cathedral of War and 1 Pendelhaven along with a couple of forests and an Inkmoth Nexus on the board. My opponent was forced to chump block the Inkmoth with a Celestial Colonnade, and without even casting a pump spell the Inkmoth killed the Colonnade and survived, because with the land buffs it was a 4/5.
Taking what I have learned about playing this deck I managed to top 8 a Premier event on the weekend, finishing 4th with this list:
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/7095543
1 Pendelhaven
4 Cathedral of War
4 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Glistener Elf
4 Ichorclaw Myr
4 Necropede
4 Mutagenic Growth
4 Giant Growth
4 Groundswell
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 Apostle's Blessing
2 Dismember
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Nature's Claim
2 Sylvan Scrying
2 Guttural Response
2 Dismember
1 Creeping Corrosion
I decided to go with 4 Giant Growth instead of Might of Old Krosa, so that I could get maximum damage after blocks, but more importantly inline with the idea of the long control game, I wanted to have more cards that would keep my guys alive, especially against Lightning Bolt. I think Might of Old Krosa is more suited to decks running Blighted Agent and Plague Stinger, where you know you can get through, and are trying to win more explosively.
I chose to only run 1 Pendelhaven, because green mana is so valuable in a deck with 8 lands that tap for colorless, and drawing a 2nd Pendelhaven can compromise that.
In the Sideboard, I ran 2 Guttural Response, which was absolutely gold against the URx match ups (Twin, Delver and Control). For Infect decks that don't run blue, I cannot recommend this card enough.
I also ran 2 Sylvan Scrying in the side for finding Inkmoth Nexus and sometimes Pendelhaven. This came in against Control or BG The Rock, where Inkmoth is your main win condition. In these match ups, I sided out 2 Ichorclaw Myr for it. Previously I was siding out 2 Necropede, but the pede is just so good against these removal heavy decks because it kills their guys when they remove it, including Snapcaster Mage, Vendilion Clique, Young Pyromancer, Pestermite, Grim Lavamancer and Dark Confidant.
Against BG The Rock, along with the 2 Sylvan Scrying, I have been boarding in all 4 Dismembers, to remove their threats and buy time. It is especially good to remove a Dark Confidant with either Dismember or Necropede, because that is their main card draw engine. I beat a BG deck in the rounds (2-0) with this plan, and lost to the same guy in the top 4 (1-2), who then went on to win the tournament.
Creeping Corrosion from the side, rescued a game for me against Affinity. Even though we run artifact creatures too, it is easy enough to play around and provides a much needed safety valve, in combination with the 4 Nature's Claim from the side.
I am really enjoying playing this deck, but it does take a shift in the usual way Infect is played. It is still fast, but has this long control game we keep talking about.
The big issue with MonoG is that it runs 8 colorless lands, which is why 4 Apostle's Blessing is essential, because you can cast it for colorless to keep your guy alive or to provide a way through blockers. Also I think it really is a good idea to run 2 Dismember in the main deck, because of all the main deck Spellskites and Melira, Sylvok Outcasts that are in popular decks at the moment. Again it can be cast for colorless and provide a way through the one blocker they left untapped.
I do like the idea of Gitaxian Probe though, card draw and information are certainly beneficial to the plan of the deck. I just can't figure out where to fit it in.
Sure, I see where you are coming from. I am going to try Bant out anyway and see how it goes, as I like the idea of being able to respond to sacrifice and enchantment removal with cheap counters. Also I think if I construct the deck very similar to a Selesnya build, with the addition of Aqueous Form and some counter spells in the side board, then it can't really be much worse than Selesnya
Seems like the sort of card I am looking for, something that can stop enchantment removal, thanks.
It seems alright, but a bit fragile. If it wasn't an enchantment creature it would be more useful, since game 2 and 3 they will probably side out creature removal in favor of enchantment removal.