All this craziness... again guys. Get infinate life, or 100 or whatever on modo, discard your Emmy to phantasmorogon... draw deck and remove 3 SSG to cast and flashback conflag = win. That plan runs 1 conflagerate.
Run 1 manamorphose to be able to do the same except you remove 2 SSG manamorphose a black and a red to cast another reanimate. Bring back Emmy and swing for 22.... both win a whole lot faster than all this gutshot, predicting cards in deck, flashing back looting, splashing cuts and anglers or whatever else silliness y'all or suggesting. Just win. It's not hard with infinate card draw, infinate, life, and infinate library manipulations.
I think the concern is not having an instant speed win. Maybe on Modo you have no choice, but in IRL, you would want a better way to beat control I think. But I see what you're saying.
I will never understand PLAYERS who want to keep the Reserved List. Investors sure, but investors who don't play....hose them, by all means. the game doesn't need them. it's not about demanding things dirt cheap, it's about wanting access. Look at Imperial Recruiter, the original dropped what, $20? I don't need ABU duals, Power, etc. Would it be nice? sure! but if they were reprinted, if anything the originals would gain value because more people would come play Legacy if fetches and duals were about the same price, and some would want the classics. Look, Karn Liberated is the most expensive card i own, i have my Tron playset. I would LOVE to see him in Standard again. I would love to see KL as a $15 card, because not only could I get one more for EDH, but the 3 people at my LGS trying budget substitutes for him that leave them with no chance would be able to roll with me. I'd love to see the Elfball player be able to afford Karn, I love the Tron mirror, I'd love to see more people running it. I'm never selling my set, I don't CARE what TCG says it's worth, I pick up cards to play the game.
I bet you that the people that made the game and a lot of people close to them have a lot of original product and that is why the reserve list will never be rescinded. There would be nothing in it for them really.
Can somebody explain to me, how the Gutshot kill works? As far as I have understood it you need to have a Griselbrand in play and being in your endstep and than abusing the clean up step by ditching Emmi and thus getting priority again (reshuffle into redraw). Is this correct?
Just as a note: Your deck must be dividable by 7, don't forget the cards which are in play (aka lands and a Griselbrand most likely). This changes the math slightly for how many cards you need to ditch to continue the clean-up loop.
Regarding the Soul Spike kill, a Soul Spike + 2 Noxious Revival mean max of 12 damage in one iteration (post infinite life and redraw of the deck). Doesn't this kill, as long as you want to be able to do it with instant speed, requires a Emrakul reshuffle (with again redraws) which needs a MD Lightning Axe to be able to do so (along the SSG)? Otherwise you will be stranded at max 12 damage. Also, isn't there a problem with the first iteration (first redraw), that you cannot actually "use" the two Revivals due to the problem of actually drawing Soul Spike with Griselbrand (aka decking yourself)? This would need a Lightning Axe into ditch Phantasmo to begin with, so that you can actually "redraw" the Soul Spike twice using the Revivals (I would just set-up the loop again and instead of dredging once put the Soul Spike with the Revival on top of the bib). This would also mean, that Griselbrand takes (in worst case when the opp has no creatures) 5 damage but you can still set-up the same loop again (to deal overall 24 damage by ditching 12 B cards), however, this is he max possible damage without losing Griselbrand.
Pro: Only needs 2 R to actually win the game (which is not a problem realistically)
Con: Relative clunky to execute since you cannot show a loop (like with Gutshot) but you have to execute it through, which might result into mistakes. Also needs a Lightning Axe MD
Regarding Lightning Storm:
Pro: Only one loop to set-up (ditch Phantasmo, set up the Infinite Life combo again and ditch Salvage to Lightning Storm for Infinite damage)
Con: Needs 4 Mana and thus with no land drops it might result into problems (noticed it a couple of times when goldfishing the deck) and needs a MD Lightning Axe
Regarding Gutshot:
Pro: You can set-up a loop to win AND stuff like Angel's Grace cannot do anything against it (since you abuse the Clean-up step for this)
Con: You need your endstep and the Griselbrand in there, which is a problem when you want to reanimate earlier to be able to attack. Also not doable with Footsteps, since Grisel dies at the EoT step.
NOTE: Might have missed here a set-up which allows to win with Gutshot without abusing Emmi triggers and the Clean-up step.
So, anything I have missed?
Greetings,
Kathal
Ok, as I understand it you
1) Goryo's Griselbrand on your end step.
2) Perform the infinite gain life combo by dredging your whole library and every time you dredge a SINGLE card Blightsteel Colossus IMMEDIATELY reshuffles back into your library so you never deck yourself. (Because, unlike Emrakul's trigger Blightsteel's reshuffle is a replacement effect, not a trigger.
3) Now, you move to discard, you discard a bunch of cards (including Emrakul) which puts Emrakul's trigger on the stack.
4) Before Emrakul's trigger resolves, you need to make sure that both your library + graveyard = a number divisible by 7. You can control this number by simply using Phantasmagorian to discard extra cards (So that your hand is less than 7 cards) (For example, if your library and graveyard equal 44 cards, just discard from your hand which is in excess of 7 down to 2 cards in hand, then your library and graveyard will equal 49!)(You can also obviously exile spirit guides and lootings prior to the end step)
5) Emrakul's trigger resolves and you have a library that is divisible by 7. Now you can draw your library a an arbitrarily large number of times, and each time you do, you Gut Shot your opponent.
Shadowgripper explains how this works during the cleanup step here using the official rules:
"To process is as follows:
1) Gain infinite life using the "Initial state" combo
2) Move to the cleanup step (discard down to handsize, trigger Emrakul, reshuffle graveyard into deck)
3) Spend life to draw deck
4) Spend life to cast Gut Shot 5) Pass priority, which takes you back to step 2. Repeat ad nauseam.See green rules text below
This works because of Comprehensive Rule 514.3a
At this point, the game checks to see if any state-based actions would be performed and/or any triggered abilities are waiting to be put onto the stack (including those that trigger “at the beginning of the next cleanup step”). If so, those state-based actions are performed, then those triggered abilities are put on the stack, then the active player gets priority. Players may cast spells and activate abilities. Once the stack is empty and all players pass in succession, another cleanup step begins. "
Ok, basically if we have 4 cards exiled (A combination of Simian Spirit Guides and Faithless Looting flashbacks) then we will inevitably have 7 cards in hand and exactly 49 cards left in our libraries and at that point you could demonstrate an infinite Gut Shot loop I think. But you have to make sure 4 things are exiled before going to your end step.
Unless, according to the rules, like Ktkenshinx says, you cannot demonstrate a loop that involves a "shuffle" in it? Is this because it by definition is randomization?
You don't even have to do that, you simply can control the number of reshuffled cards in your library using phantasmagorian:
Exemple: You discard your hand down to 7, you discard emrakul AND phantasmagorian at least. Let's assume you have 43 cards in library before the shuffling (exemple) so you must arrive at 49
You respond to emrakul trigger by discarding 3 cards to phantasmagorian (Now 46 cards in library), resolve, 45 cards in library, do it two times and here we go 49 cards, resolve the emmy trigger, you can draw a multiple of 7.
As long as the loop creates a deterministic game state, it's fine. 4 SSG can be exiled to ensure the 56 card library+GY is divisible by 7. At that point, you are simply drawing 49 cards every loop (activating Griselbrand 7 times), discarding 48 cards on cleanup, casting Gut Shot (card #49) with Emrakul trigger on stack, and then restarting the loop.
This loop stops working when your library+GY is not divisible by 7. It also doesn't work until you have infinite life and/or if Emrakul is in the deck, because the dredging might hit an Emrakul which likely forces you to reshuffle, creating a non-deterministic game state. Once you draw Emrakul you should be fine. Drawing Blighsteel doesn't matter either because you can use Phantasmagorian to discard them later. This still makes the combo really hard to execute in a tournament, and basically impossible to execute on MTGO because none of the loops are actually loopable.
Considering this, I wouldn't mind a couple Relic of Progenitus in the main. This makes those Gemstone Caverns more appealing as well. Maybe a one of Sickening Shoal or Murderous Cut even. I also didn't consider cards in play.. at least 2 lands and Griselbrand. So with that in mind, you might have to "exile down to" 49 cards.
Ok, basically if we have 4 cards exiled (A combination of Simian Spirit Guides and Faithless Looting flashbacks) then we will inevitably have 7 cards in hand and exactly 49 cards left in our libraries and at that point you could demonstrate an infinite Gut Shot loop I think. But you have to make sure 4 things are exiled before going to your end step.
Unless, according to the rules, like Ktkenshinx says, you cannot demonstrate a loop that involves a "shuffle" in it? Is this because it by definition is randomization?
So, gave the deck a few goldfishes and some reps and gosh it feels either clunky or very smooth.
Though, I ran into a problem to actually finish the game, after I enabled the loop. Sure, I was at infinite life, but casting a Lightning Storm or any finisher in this regard proved kinda hard, due to:
- Mana (didn't have enough SSG a couple of times where I needed them to cast Lootings, so that I continue having dredgers in the graveyard)
- Not having the actual win con (aka not having a deck which is dividable by 7 sucks)
- Not having enough resources for the kill (e.g Lands for Lightning Storm)
So then i must respond to that, first, about the "clunky" part i must say i disagree with you, i played the deck along with a classic grishoalbrand and to me it's way less clunky, it's really rare to not combo at all after the turn 5 with this deck, contrary to grishoalbrand.
About the finish, two things:
1: In the vast majority of situations, you can wait for one turn to kill, infinite life allow you do to that. Either the emrakul kill, either the gutshot/soul spike kill.
2: I would prefer the gutshot kill over nearly any others, except maybe the soul spike one in a version playing at least two noxious revival. (wich makes the deck a paper version only, it's true, the online version is just too clunky to me, i see no interest in developping it)
So before we find another idea, the two best are these ones.
EDIT: Well i'm not quite honest because there is other solutions i came up with but i found them complicated:
With a pyretic ritual and at least one noxious revival you can go infinite mana R and cast 2 blightsteel and emrakul.
With 2 mox amber and at least two noxious revival you can go infinite mana B and either cast 2 blightsteel/emrakul/grisel or kill with collective brutality. (with only one noxous you can chain collective brutality infinitely)
I have a concern for the paper version. Once we gain infinite life and allow the Emrakul trigger to resolve, shuffling our graveyard back into our library, how do we demonstrate an infinite loop with another set of Griselbrand draws (gutshoting our opponent every time we draw our deck) since Griselbrand draws in batches of seven? Do we have to manually do this 20 times for the kill or can a loop be demonstrated according to the rules?
EDIT: I guess the opponent would basically be forced to concede that game because we have infinite life and can't be decked? That is unless they have another win condition like infect or UB mill or something right?
I play it online so I don't try to win turn 2 because its impossible to achieve infinite life in decent time.
The idea is to dredge your deck to your graveyard, not to your hand. You have to keep counting how many dredgers you have and how many cards you should draw so that you can keep looping Phantasmagorian+Dredgers.
You cannot blindly draw/dredge without knowing what cards are in your GY and library. You have to count it. That's why Noxious Revival is there. To make sure you can put in your hand the card you need to combo out.
Once you do, you make sure that the last two cards you have left in library are Blightsteel Colossus. If you happen to have them in hand, don't sweat, discard them with Phantasmagorian. Rinse repeat.
If you're playing it IRL, I suggest you use Seary's wincon which is Soul Spike. You get infinite life, draw your deck, remove black cards from hand, Soul Spike opponent. Again, rinse repeat.
This is why I say this deck is probably an IRL deck only. Depending on the matchup, in a paper game, you can just combo off and say "I gain infinite life" (Or 100 billion or whatever). Then you have the luxury of passing the turn if you have a mana constraint for your win con and you can probably sit back and develop your mana/hand to combo off for the actual win turn.
Also, maybe a ritual of some sort would help too. Desperate Ritual as a one-of would allow a win with only 2 mana monkeys and Lightning Storm. Or maybe an Infernal Plunge?
How do you get to the point to be able to start looping? Realistically you would need to draw around 21 cards to be at the desired set-up (due to dredgers and co), but realistically you only get 2 draws off (speaking as an Griselbrand player). You only get the third draw, if you are attacking OR are already in a semi loop, where you dredge with Brownscale already (to gain the additional live).
Note: While I really want to play the deck sometime,I need to get the last cards first (I'm missing basically only Blightsteel and that's it).
Greetings,
Kathal
I didn't understand it at first either, but basically you are replacing each and every single card drawn with Griselbrand with a dredge (whether it be a dredge 5, 2, etc...) So that with one Griselbrand activation you can basically mill like half your deck. Then when you dredge Golgari Brownscales (however many you milled) you gain 2 life per Brownscale.
Once you get your whole deck milled, you replace each drawn card with Griselbrand with a "dredge 2" replacement effect. Since you have 2 Blightsteel Colossus, they keep shuffling back into your deck in between each drawn card with Grsielbrand allowing you to go infinite. (This works because the Blighsteel effect is NOT a triggered ability, it is a replacement effect. Its basically a rules hack)
Can you use anything with a reshuffle trigger instead of Blightsteel Colossus? For instance, Worldspine Wurm?
Not exactly because Blightsteel Colossus never hits the graveyeard and Worldspine Wurm does, which means it can be removed from GY before its trigger resolves. At least thats how I see it.
Ok, yeah. I did a little more research on rules and it appears Worldspine is a "Triggered" ability while Blightsteel is a "Replacement" effect and I think that is a necessary difference for the combo loop? Can someone confirm?
Haha, yeah, I saw your post in the Desecrated Tomb thread and figured this is what you had in mind. Would it just be a good sideboard kill to fight through hate games 2 & 3 maybe? (In paper, I mean)
Can you use anything with a reshuffle trigger instead of Blightsteel Colossus? For instance, Worldspine Wurm?
Not exactly because Blightsteel Colossus never hits the graveyeard and Worldspine Wurm does, which means it can be removed from GY before its trigger resolves. At least thats how I see it.
Ok, yeah. I did a little more research on rules and it appears Worldspine is a "Triggered" ability while Blightsteel is a "Replacement" effect and I think that is a necessary difference for the combo loop? Can someone confirm?
I have another option I am considering for the Humans/Death and Taxes matchups. Vengeful Pharaoh. It doesn't matter if they discard it. Freebooter can't take it. They can't Meddling Mage it and we have plenty of ways to discard it. Obviously we would still want a couple wraths so they can't play around it and just build up a sufficiently big board. Any thoughts?
I think the concern is not having an instant speed win. Maybe on Modo you have no choice, but in IRL, you would want a better way to beat control I think. But I see what you're saying.
I bet you that the people that made the game and a lot of people close to them have a lot of original product and that is why the reserve list will never be rescinded. There would be nothing in it for them really.
Ok, as I understand it you
1) Goryo's Griselbrand on your end step.
2) Perform the infinite gain life combo by dredging your whole library and every time you dredge a SINGLE card Blightsteel Colossus IMMEDIATELY reshuffles back into your library so you never deck yourself. (Because, unlike Emrakul's trigger Blightsteel's reshuffle is a replacement effect, not a trigger.
3) Now, you move to discard, you discard a bunch of cards (including Emrakul) which puts Emrakul's trigger on the stack.
4) Before Emrakul's trigger resolves, you need to make sure that both your library + graveyard = a number divisible by 7. You can control this number by simply using Phantasmagorian to discard extra cards (So that your hand is less than 7 cards) (For example, if your library and graveyard equal 44 cards, just discard from your hand which is in excess of 7 down to 2 cards in hand, then your library and graveyard will equal 49!)(You can also obviously exile spirit guides and lootings prior to the end step)
5) Emrakul's trigger resolves and you have a library that is divisible by 7. Now you can draw your library a an arbitrarily large number of times, and each time you do, you Gut Shot your opponent.
Shadowgripper explains how this works during the cleanup step here using the official rules:
"To process is as follows:
1) Gain infinite life using the "Initial state" combo
2) Move to the cleanup step (discard down to handsize, trigger Emrakul, reshuffle graveyard into deck)
3) Spend life to draw deck
4) Spend life to cast Gut Shot
5) Pass priority, which takes you back to step 2. Repeat ad nauseam. See green rules text below
This works because of Comprehensive Rule 514.3a
At this point, the game checks to see if any state-based actions would be performed and/or any triggered abilities are waiting to be put onto the stack (including those that trigger “at the beginning of the next cleanup step”). If so, those state-based actions are performed, then those triggered abilities are put on the stack, then the active player gets priority. Players may cast spells and activate abilities. Once the stack is empty and all players pass in succession, another cleanup step begins.
"
Considering this, I wouldn't mind a couple Relic of Progenitus in the main. This makes those Gemstone Caverns more appealing as well. Maybe a one of Sickening Shoal or Murderous Cut even. I also didn't consider cards in play.. at least 2 lands and Griselbrand. So with that in mind, you might have to "exile down to" 49 cards.
Unless, according to the rules, like Ktkenshinx says, you cannot demonstrate a loop that involves a "shuffle" in it? Is this because it by definition is randomization?
I have a concern for the paper version. Once we gain infinite life and allow the Emrakul trigger to resolve, shuffling our graveyard back into our library, how do we demonstrate an infinite loop with another set of Griselbrand draws (gutshoting our opponent every time we draw our deck) since Griselbrand draws in batches of seven? Do we have to manually do this 20 times for the kill or can a loop be demonstrated according to the rules?
EDIT: I guess the opponent would basically be forced to concede that game because we have infinite life and can't be decked? That is unless they have another win condition like infect or UB mill or something right?
This is why I say this deck is probably an IRL deck only. Depending on the matchup, in a paper game, you can just combo off and say "I gain infinite life" (Or 100 billion or whatever). Then you have the luxury of passing the turn if you have a mana constraint for your win con and you can probably sit back and develop your mana/hand to combo off for the actual win turn.
Also, maybe a ritual of some sort would help too. Desperate Ritual as a one-of would allow a win with only 2 mana monkeys and Lightning Storm. Or maybe an Infernal Plunge?
I will try out Lightning Storm and see how that is.
I didn't understand it at first either, but basically you are replacing each and every single card drawn with Griselbrand with a dredge (whether it be a dredge 5, 2, etc...) So that with one Griselbrand activation you can basically mill like half your deck. Then when you dredge Golgari Brownscales (however many you milled) you gain 2 life per Brownscale.
Once you get your whole deck milled, you replace each drawn card with Griselbrand with a "dredge 2" replacement effect. Since you have 2 Blightsteel Colossus, they keep shuffling back into your deck in between each drawn card with Grsielbrand allowing you to go infinite. (This works because the Blighsteel effect is NOT a triggered ability, it is a replacement effect. Its basically a rules hack)
Haha, yeah, I saw your post in the Desecrated Tomb thread and figured this is what you had in mind. Would it just be a good sideboard kill to fight through hate games 2 & 3 maybe? (In paper, I mean)
Ok, yeah. I did a little more research on rules and it appears Worldspine is a "Triggered" ability while Blightsteel is a "Replacement" effect and I think that is a necessary difference for the combo loop? Can someone confirm?