I like both, but prefer short, 1 match videos. You can always put all 5 matches of a league in a playlist but much easier to digest in shorter 20-45 min videos.
Edit: I appreciate both sides of the Dictate/As Foretold debate. They are two different types/styles of deck though. Is there a hybrid lurking somewhere in there? I believe so, but not sure exactly what/where it is.
I do want to try both versions and try to land on a single "hybrid" that has JtMS, Search, As Foretold, Dictate, "the usual suspects" and probably AV.
I'm also thinking that with Jace, we probably want to prioritize Gigadrowse and Remand because the line could be (worst case on the draw):
T1: island, go
T2: island, go, on your upkeep giga your two lands
T3: island, either exhaustion or go
T4: land, Jace, maybe set up miracle
T5: miracle, land, dictate or as foretold or go..
You can probably see where I'm getting at, and it may have been mentioned in one of the 50+ comments since THE GREAT UNBANNING announcement, but we want 4x Gigadrowse in one style of the new deck.
Edit2: Just browsing MTGGoldfish and came upon a 5-0 deck list piloted by Klump (not sure if we've been graced with their presence in here yet). Here's the list:
They were clearly hedging against a burn meta and not affinity. Also probably expected something like choke or boil with the 2 different non-basic U sources. I feel like we will be seeing more of those hate cards along with Guttural Response
It's funny you posted this because I saw on twitter a few hours back that @Truckis123 (convo snap attached) ran the deck I posted at the top of page 68 and said "Turns turned out fantastic with Jace." I inquired as to the As Foretold's replacing dictate and the lack of gigadrowse to which he responded:
"dictate is a valid option but I like the utility from As Foretold. Tolaria west for living end is bonkers. Gigadrowse is not really needed. It's card-advantage and just a fog most of the time. You don't have to tap out blue to go off with this build."
My response to this, and a question I pose to you as well is: is the primary win-con now Jace? Removing PtW and only having 2x snappy seems highly risky against cards like Surgical Extraction or Pithing Needle/Sorcerous Spyglass. Maybe it's just that controlling that you're not worried about these cards?
I'm really liking the inclusion of 3-4 Field of Ruin (although I missed the boat on cheap(er) foils) to take care of the random creature lands, tron lands and other splash duals.
Edit: Seeing as it's been mentioned exactly 1 time, almost exactly 1 year ago to the day (Feb 16, 2017 @ 8:00am CST), what do we think about Mindbreak Trap in the board vs storm, Ad Nauseam, Grishoalbrand and others?
Edit 2: @Truckis123 responded to my question about Jace being the only win-con and whether it would be good to include some number of PtW; he said:
"Nope, I don't need another type of wincon, but I did add a third snapcaster now to be more aggressive "
1. I'm pretty sure that Notion Thief is the worst offender vs Jace.
2. That being said, I'm not very worried about mostly blue decks.
3a. I think Ancestral Vision builds of Turns will be more successful if the metagame is full of discard spells..
3b. That being said, BBE into Kolaghan's Command is still a backbreaker.
4. On the topic of Leylines: I hate them.
1. Total agree. Notion Thief is going to pop up now because it's good vs the brainstorm effect from Jace along with the cascaded/or free cast AV, along with other card draw spells or engines.
2. You're right about that. Our normal match up vs a U control deck is pretty solid, except when it's got low CMC creatures like Death's Shadow or Tasigur.
3a. Again, you're totally correct about this. A turn 1 suspended AV, or even a turn 4+ will really help to keep us ahead in the card advantage game. Or it will be a good target for their discard spell. If they IoK or Thoughtseize you on the play turn 1 and see AV and Dictate or SV, I feel like they'd take the AV. Maybe I'm wrong.
3b. BBE is going to be pretty solid against us. Seeing more K-Commands will likely make me drop Howling Mine entirely now. It still makes us discard a card and probably shocks us (since we've been unlikely to get a creature in their yard.)
4. Was simply a question. Maybe the W splash could get away with playing 2-3 Sanctity main, but mono U and the UB versions are unlikely to want them main.
Watching Saffron Olive play the UW Miracles deck on the Team Modern Super League stream last night and go 3-0 vs Lantern, Burn and G-Tron made me really consider slotting Remand back in somewhere. The tempo it can provide is insane and maybe I'm just bitter because it never seemed to work well for me in the past (very results oriented thinking (ROTy)).
FWIW: I've seen a LOT of (obvious) chatter about JtMS working really well with miracle cards, mostly Terminus and Entreat but also Temporal Mastery. With these genius lightbulbs going off, it seems to reason that there will start to be more undesired hate against us. Thinking Jace's Defeat, Invasive Surgery and more Negate's. There will also be more hand disruption spells out there to rip Jace out of the opening hands. This is bad news for us because we FOLD to Thoughtseize & IoK.
The bogles deck that won GP Toronto last weekend was running main deck Leyline of Sanctity; do we consider this an option when not splashing W?
Yes, it was only 32 TOTAL games, probably half or so are on the draw. So say it's 20 of the 32 games are on the draw (since he won a lot 😉) 4 times is less improbable, yet still seemingly 'unlucky'?
HAH! Yes that's pretty true, although it feels like my most common openers are all 3 turns cards.. I've literally had 4 turns & 3 lands, basically a mull-to-3
Lucksacked the Gemstone CavernsFOUR TIMES in 13 rounds played (32 games, not sure how many were on the draw). That is a hell of a lot of luck dude! Good finish, solid report. Lets keep taking those turns
I also want to say how amazing the turns forum is for activity! Since the announcement 25 hours ago, we've had 48 comments, mostly of constructive nature! That's fantastic
Also, I would like make something clear: don't be hellbent in the whole turn4 Jace thing. No one would ever do that in a game if it means you instantly lose the game.
Please don't make a bad play and put the blame on the card.
You make a great point. Shaheen Soorani was on the First Strike podcast last night and said basically that. When this is played in a U/W control shell, you're not looking to slam him down on turn 4; more likely turn 8+ after you've taken control of the game. HOWEVER, we are a different style control deck and usually don't have 2UU lying around. I do feel that if we have the ability to drop Jace on turn 4 when we can brainstorm a Temporal Mastery back to the top to miracle next turn, we kind-of don't care if he dies. It's almost like our plan becomes:
Set up miracle
Absorb some damage
Proceed to "go off"
Also, about the number of Jace. Probably looking to run 2-3 in the turns deck. He does not replace Dictate, maybe Mine/Search (although I'm high on Search right now because of the "ramp" nature of the card). I really want 4 Opt now, to increase the chance to miracle on their turn. Are we still looking to splash for removal/disruption (B) or good sideboard cards (W)? Seems like the "Jace" version wants to be mono-U so we can maximize on Gigadrowse.
These numbers are obviously a starting point, and should be tweaked. Lands would likely be 1x each Inkmoth, Mikokoro, maybe Gemstone Caverns(??) and the rest Islands; Hell, maybe even 1-3 Field of Ruin is right for a more controlling build. More or less opt, snapcaster, PtW, JtMS, Search, Cryptic are just fine. Including something else like commandeer, remand, howling mine, etc is totally fine! Tune to your meta, that's what its all about.
I really think opt should be considered as a 4-of in the JtMS decks. Just for the increased chances to temporal mastery on their EoT. It's clunky, I know, but feels just a fraction better than miracling on your turn
Edit: are we going to start including Flashfreeze in our SB to combat the early choke & boil along with other garbage red/green killers, say BBE 🤷♂️
I think with Jaces you will want to up the fetchland count to at least 6 and up the Temporal Mastery to 4, @timewalkinonsunshine.
And what are all our thoughts on dropping the number of non-basic lands to minimize the targets for Field of Ruin? Seems like we don't want to get our perfectly placed top deck shuffled away because we have a valid target. Just sayin..
ALSO: so much for having an all foiled out deck! At least until the M25 copies come way down in price. The Eternal Masters versions were $115-$120 yesterday, and I missed the boat by minutes this morning. Would probably pay that again for a foil..I know, unlikely now.
Another Edit:
@Truckis123 just posted this decklist on twitter.
with the unban of Jace, are we looking at a completely different playstyle of the deck? It certainly feels like you don't just run it out on turn 4, unprotected, correct? with that in mind, if we're playing Jace, would we shift to a more creature-centric strategy utilizing cheap CMC, high toughness creatures to aid in keeping Jace alive? Thinking main deck: TitI Spellskite Wall of Frost (lol) Sidisi's Faithful Deceiver Exarch Calcite Snapper (which I've used as a "win-con" before, and shroud is solid in a world FULL of fatal push)
I know this is all speculation (discussion?) at this point, but probably worth bringing up because windmill slamming a turn 4 Jace onto a developed board is not what we want to do. Maybe the turns deck doesnt even want Jace, and we just stick it out with Riverwise Augur (which has been bonkers every time I've cast it).
At Toronto, was in round 1 'time warp' match after the main feature ended. Cannot confirm, but I think another was on day 2.
Day 1, Scott Ho starting point. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/227608922?t=5372s
Edit: I appreciate both sides of the Dictate/As Foretold debate. They are two different types/styles of deck though. Is there a hybrid lurking somewhere in there? I believe so, but not sure exactly what/where it is.
I do want to try both versions and try to land on a single "hybrid" that has JtMS, Search, As Foretold, Dictate, "the usual suspects" and probably AV.
I'm also thinking that with Jace, we probably want to prioritize Gigadrowse and Remand because the line could be (worst case on the draw):
T1: island, go
T2: island, go, on your upkeep giga your two lands
T3: island, either exhaustion or go
T4: land, Jace, maybe set up miracle
T5: miracle, land, dictate or as foretold or go..
You can probably see where I'm getting at, and it may have been mentioned in one of the 50+ comments since THE GREAT UNBANNING announcement, but we want 4x Gigadrowse in one style of the new deck.
Edit2: Just browsing MTGGoldfish and came upon a 5-0 deck list piloted by Klump (not sure if we've been graced with their presence in here yet). Here's the list:
4x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Gigadrowse
4x Serum Visions
3x Remand
2x Exhaustion
2x Cryptic Command
4x Time Warp
2x Part the Waterveil
1x Walk the Aeons
4x Temporal Mastery
4x Dictate of Kruphix
19x Island
1x Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1x Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
2x Radiant Fountain
3x Dispel
1x Gigadrowse
4x Dragon's Claw
1x Negate
1x Remand
1x Spreading Seas
3x Sun Droplet
1x Laboratory Maniac
They were clearly hedging against a burn meta and not affinity. Also probably expected something like choke or boil with the 2 different non-basic U sources. I feel like we will be seeing more of those hate cards along with Guttural Response
"dictate is a valid option but I like the utility from As Foretold. Tolaria west for living end is bonkers. Gigadrowse is not really needed. It's card-advantage and just a fog most of the time. You don't have to tap out blue to go off with this build."
My response to this, and a question I pose to you as well is: is the primary win-con now Jace? Removing PtW and only having 2x snappy seems highly risky against cards like Surgical Extraction or Pithing Needle/Sorcerous Spyglass. Maybe it's just that controlling that you're not worried about these cards?
I'm really liking the inclusion of 3-4 Field of Ruin (although I missed the boat on cheap(er) foils) to take care of the random creature lands, tron lands and other splash duals.
Why do you run both Day's Undoing AND Wheel of Fate? Feels like you really only need one-or-the-other.
Edit: Seeing as it's been mentioned exactly 1 time, almost exactly 1 year ago to the day (Feb 16, 2017 @ 8:00am CST), what do we think about Mindbreak Trap in the board vs storm, Ad Nauseam, Grishoalbrand and others?
Edit 2: @Truckis123 responded to my question about Jace being the only win-con and whether it would be good to include some number of PtW; he said:
"Nope, I don't need another type of wincon, but I did add a third snapcaster now to be more aggressive "
2. You're right about that. Our normal match up vs a U control deck is pretty solid, except when it's got low CMC creatures like Death's Shadow or Tasigur.
3a. Again, you're totally correct about this. A turn 1 suspended AV, or even a turn 4+ will really help to keep us ahead in the card advantage game. Or it will be a good target for their discard spell. If they IoK or Thoughtseize you on the play turn 1 and see AV and Dictate or SV, I feel like they'd take the AV. Maybe I'm wrong.
3b. BBE is going to be pretty solid against us. Seeing more K-Commands will likely make me drop Howling Mine entirely now. It still makes us discard a card and probably shocks us (since we've been unlikely to get a creature in their yard.)
4. Was simply a question. Maybe the W splash could get away with playing 2-3 Sanctity main, but mono U and the UB versions are unlikely to want them main.
Watching Saffron Olive play the UW Miracles deck on the Team Modern Super League stream last night and go 3-0 vs Lantern, Burn and G-Tron made me really consider slotting Remand back in somewhere. The tempo it can provide is insane and maybe I'm just bitter because it never seemed to work well for me in the past (very results oriented thinking (ROTy)).
The bogles deck that won GP Toronto last weekend was running main deck Leyline of Sanctity; do we consider this an option when not splashing W?
HOWEVER, we are a different style control deck and usually don't have 2UU lying around. I do feel that if we have the ability to drop Jace on turn 4 when we can brainstorm a Temporal Mastery back to the top to miracle next turn, we kind-of don't care if he dies. It's almost like our plan becomes:
Also, about the number of Jace. Probably looking to run 2-3 in the turns deck. He does not replace Dictate, maybe Mine/Search (although I'm high on Search right now because of the "ramp" nature of the card). I really want 4 Opt now, to increase the chance to miracle on their turn. Are we still looking to splash for removal/disruption (B) or good sideboard cards (W)? Seems like the "Jace" version wants to be mono-U so we can maximize on Gigadrowse.
List thoughts/outline:
4x Opt
4x Serum Visions
4x Gigadrowse
4x Exhaustion
4x Dictate of Kruphix
4x Time Warp
4x Temporal Mastery
3x Part the Waterveil
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Search for Azcanta
2x Cryptic Command
These numbers are obviously a starting point, and should be tweaked. Lands would likely be 1x each Inkmoth, Mikokoro, maybe Gemstone Caverns(??) and the rest Islands; Hell, maybe even 1-3 Field of Ruin is right for a more controlling build. More or less opt, snapcaster, PtW, JtMS, Search, Cryptic are just fine. Including something else like commandeer, remand, howling mine, etc is totally fine! Tune to your meta, that's what its all about.
Edit: are we going to start including Flashfreeze in our SB to combat the early choke & boil along with other garbage red/green killers, say BBE 🤷♂️
ALSO: so much for having an all foiled out deck! At least until the M25 copies come way down in price. The Eternal Masters versions were $115-$120 yesterday, and I missed the boat by minutes this morning. Would probably pay that again for a foil..I know, unlikely now.
Another Edit:
@Truckis123 just posted this decklist on twitter.
4x Ancestral Vision
1x Living End
4x Opt
4x Serum Visions
1x Search for Azcanta
4x As Foretold
4x Exhaustion
1x Day's Undoing
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Cryptic Command
4x Time Warp
4x Temporal Mastery
2x Flooded Strand
1x Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
2x Polluted Delta
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Steam Vents
3x Tolaria West
9x Island
2x Ceremonious Rejection
2x Dispel
2x Spell Pierce
2x Hurkyl's Recall
3x Thing in the Ice
2x Disrupting Shoal
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Relic of Progenitus
TitI
Spellskite
Wall of Frost (lol)
Sidisi's Faithful
Deceiver Exarch
Calcite Snapper (which I've used as a "win-con" before, and shroud is solid in a world FULL of fatal push)
I know this is all speculation (discussion?) at this point, but probably worth bringing up because windmill slamming a turn 4 Jace onto a developed board is not what we want to do. Maybe the turns deck doesnt even want Jace, and we just stick it out with Riverwise Augur (which has been bonkers every time I've cast it).
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/february-12-2018-banned-and-restricted-announcement-2018-02-12
Day 1, Scott Ho starting point.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/227608922?t=5372s
Day 2, Davies Clarke, was on a strange Walk the Aeons/Ancestral Vision build.
vs 5-color humans.. can probably figure out the result from that
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/227979044?t=00h15m55s