I've also recently started testing the prophetic flamespeaker version. Scuze has not felt optimal. I can't find the triple green to cast him, and then get him out of bolt range. In the situations he was supposed to be good he just felt too slow. Its quite probable I'm playing the card wrong. I would like to cut him, but I have no idea what I would cut him for. Perhaps a third terminate would be good, but I want 14 threats.
It varies on the matchup, but as a general rule of thumb, pretty much always lead with delver. I can't think of very many situations where I have the option of turn one-ing delver, and choose not to.
Probe is good as a 2-3 of, and allows for nigh perfect information. It also makes your geese really easy to turn on. Thought scour is just there as a cycling goose accelerator. I like it as a one of more than I like probe as a one of.
Running ghost quarter just seems bad. Theoretically yes it is a strip mine, but what if they're running basics, and don't show you them game one?
Running the deck without wastelands also seems poor. Leveraging wasteland is one of the things this deck does best.
I tested BURG for a bit. Tarmogoyf was simply just better. In addition to this the mana proved very poor. There's probably a brew with young pyro, and deathrite, but i don't think the tempo decks have the cards to run all the core cards, and then enable pyro with probe.
There was a grixis deck that cut pierce and ran 15 win cons, but the deck looked too threat heavy, and counterspell light.
The problem with adding probe is that while it is more card draw, which plays very well with the rest of the deck, what do you cut? You could cut some pierce, but pierce is solid. You could cut ponder, but ponder is also one of the best cards in the deck.
you cut good cards for bad cards to enable other cards that are only really good with that other card. There is no reason to cut down on quality cards for them.
I suppose you could make an argument for going -2 ponder, -1 pierce, +3 probe, but I'd still rather have the ponder's and pierce.
That was my first thought too, but goose is one of the reasons this deck has a late game, which is also cheap. I also started out by cutting some, but I'm pretty sure you have to run 4. I've ran over enough people due to his shroud that he is worth it. The problem with running pyro over goyf is that late game pyro is pretty terrible. Drawing nothing but goyfs late game, most of the time, is everything you could really hope for.
The main issue with running pyro is that you want to cast him before you cast any other spells. Often times you need to hold up those spells to stop progression of your opponent's game. Casting pyro to get value off the spells means you tap out for a turn.On turn two spending a mana for a goose, or delver, and leaving up stifle or pierce is solid. Often times goyf can't be cast because of the 1 mana spells. Pyro is similarly hard to cast unless you have daze or force.
Its worked out pretty well so far. Sometimes i get threat flooded though, so I've been considering going up to 4 pierce, and just 1 pyro. Every time I've untapped with him he's taken over the game.
The biggest problem with counterbalance is that delver doesn't use top efficiently because top wants a ton of mana. Also from drew levin's primer, which i agree with, "it turns your 75% match ups to 98% match ups.
for that matter in referencing old builds is everyone still sure stifle is the way to go?
for those who have tried it how has the main deck spell snares worked out? I want to find room for two in the main, but am not sure what to cut, or even if its pertinent. I kind of want to go -1 spell pierce, and am not sure what the other cut should be.
I cut a spell pierce, a daze, and 2 mongoose to add 4 deathrite. the flex slots became 2 abrupt decay. Still 18 lands just run 7 fetches, and 2 underground, 2 volcanic, 2 trop, 1 taiga.
I'm not sold on the decay either. Its relatively generic removal at this point. I may swap it out for the pierces, and daze, but i haven't given the list enough testing. its likely a 4th counterspell, probably daze, and a chain lightning are just better in this slot.
Deathrite giving more mana, and a direct way to interact with their life total though is quite relevant. It gives another way to end games that have gone longer without needing to attack. Mongoose in my experience has also been hard to turn on without thought scour in a build with thought scour.
Notion thief IMO isn't even worth worrying about. Theoretically you can gotcha people with it, but at 4 mana and the opponent having to cast brainstorm it doesn't seem worth it to run anywhere. Its better to simply run the jace.
Yes deed is too slow. Maelstrom pulse is in my experience quite good. I still don't see how Gerry's list is solid except for in a meta without combo. It looks like it needs more 1 mana discard. I however also don't like ancestral, as it felt like it was too much durdling. currently I'm running 3 shardless, and 2 snapcaster, and I've really liked that split. the snapcaster's have proven quite good, as well as relevent even as a 2/1 off of shardless.
Has anybody tried sylvan library? The card seems solid in a list that isn't using ancestral visions. for that matter I've never seen multiples. The card seems as powerful as top, and is able to deal with multiples quite readily. Anybody know why i never see more than two?
If it sounds interesting to you then go for it. The deck is competitive. A lot of its power comes from its redundancy, and its ability to launch off multiple therapies late game to effectively win. The only really transferable skill is how to play cabal therapy.
I just recently bought a dredge deck(sans leds because of budget), but i'd been looking at the deck for a couple years now. Tweaking builds and learning the basics of goldfishing it.
4 Dark confidant
4 Prophetic Flamespeaker
2 scavenging ooze
4 lightning bolt
2 terminate
3 abrupt decay
3 jund charm
2 thoughtseize
4 inquisition of kozilezk
1 batterskull
2 EE
2 golgari charm
1 sword of light and shadow
2 thrun
2 thoughtseize
4 fulminator mage
1 abrupt decay
Probe is good as a 2-3 of, and allows for nigh perfect information. It also makes your geese really easy to turn on. Thought scour is just there as a cycling goose accelerator. I like it as a one of more than I like probe as a one of.
Running the deck without wastelands also seems poor. Leveraging wasteland is one of the things this deck does best.
I tested BURG for a bit. Tarmogoyf was simply just better. In addition to this the mana proved very poor. There's probably a brew with young pyro, and deathrite, but i don't think the tempo decks have the cards to run all the core cards, and then enable pyro with probe.
There was a grixis deck that cut pierce and ran 15 win cons, but the deck looked too threat heavy, and counterspell light.
you cut good cards for bad cards to enable other cards that are only really good with that other card. There is no reason to cut down on quality cards for them.
I suppose you could make an argument for going -2 ponder, -1 pierce, +3 probe, but I'd still rather have the ponder's and pierce.
The main issue with running pyro is that you want to cast him before you cast any other spells. Often times you need to hold up those spells to stop progression of your opponent's game. Casting pyro to get value off the spells means you tap out for a turn.On turn two spending a mana for a goose, or delver, and leaving up stifle or pierce is solid. Often times goyf can't be cast because of the 1 mana spells. Pyro is similarly hard to cast unless you have daze or force.
4 Delver of secrets
4 nimble mongoose
2 young pyromancer
3 spell pierce
4 daze
4 force of will
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 stifle
1 chain lightning
4 scalding tarn
4 misty rainforest
3 tropical island
3 volcanic island
4 wasteland
Its worked out pretty well so far. Sometimes i get threat flooded though, so I've been considering going up to 4 pierce, and just 1 pyro. Every time I've untapped with him he's taken over the game.
for that matter in referencing old builds is everyone still sure stifle is the way to go?
for those who have tried it how has the main deck spell snares worked out? I want to find room for two in the main, but am not sure what to cut, or even if its pertinent. I kind of want to go -1 spell pierce, and am not sure what the other cut should be.
I'm not sold on the decay either. Its relatively generic removal at this point. I may swap it out for the pierces, and daze, but i haven't given the list enough testing. its likely a 4th counterspell, probably daze, and a chain lightning are just better in this slot.
Deathrite giving more mana, and a direct way to interact with their life total though is quite relevant. It gives another way to end games that have gone longer without needing to attack. Mongoose in my experience has also been hard to turn on without thought scour in a build with thought scour.
in a side note: why don't i see more basics?
prospective list:
4 tarmogoyf
4 shardless agent
2 snapcaster mage
1 vendillion clique
4 cabal therapy
4 brainstorm
4 abrupt decay
1 maelstrom pulse
4 force of will
3 jace, the mind sculptor
2 sylvan library
4 wasteland
1 creeping tar pit
1 island
1 forest
1 swamp
2 tropical island
1 bayou
1 underground sea
4 polluted delta
3 verdant catacombs
3 misty rainforest
I just recently bought a dredge deck(sans leds because of budget), but i'd been looking at the deck for a couple years now. Tweaking builds and learning the basics of goldfishing it.