MTG Salvation

Forget the examples. That post took 15 seconds to write. (If you want to argue semantics, yes it took more.)
The point was that the two card combo slots into different shells which have different options so it make sense that a final 75 hasn't been settled upon. It probably never will as it fits into multiple decks where people will continually jam it. The deck has also been posting top 8 results in its infancy without a set deck list like infect etc. Tier two is competitive, not tier 1. All things considered it doesn't seem too unreasonable.

What's better; Smiter or Geist?

In a meta with lots of Liliana, Smiter wins.
In a meta with lots of Jeskai Control, Geist might be better.

It's obviously not that simple, but the deck can also choose from Finks, Clique, Rhox War Monk ... Just in the 3 drop.

After that, if Smiter is good, then so is Wilt-Leaf Liege as opposed to maybe Elspeth in the 4 drop.

Is Lightning Bolt better than CoCo? The deck changes.

This makes it very hard to determine a proper 75. The constant is the Knightfall combo.

Then think about play style .... The fact is that Knightfall as a two card combo validates a few different archetypes. Doesn't mean it's not tier 2.

Quote from user_me »

@Kryxo's Deck I can only assume a hollowed foundry is a Hallowed Fountain? or a Sacred Foundry

Haha! Yes, it is Hallowed Fountain. What an awesome typo.

I didn't see my pridemages in those games. They would help a bit vs. the sunburst rock and lotus bloom. They would help a lot vs. Phyrexian Unlife too. I was hoping to hit them off CoCo for that reason. They can still win with Angel's Grace too though. That player did have his 1-of Slaughter Pact vs my T3 combo on the play. That saved him one match!

Just finished some testing. LGS said that 7 players wasn't enough to have a proper tourney, after one of the players pulled out coz player 8 was 10 mins late -.-.

Played against Grixis Prowess, running Abbot and Swiftspear in place of twin, basically. Discard, removal, snappy, lilli. It was really one sided. We played 3 games pre-board and 5+ post board and I won them all pretty convincingly. Twice via combo.

Also tested against Ad Nauseum. It was brutal in the other direction. Only played 2 matches though, (2-1, 2-1). Even with T1 Noble into T2 Geist and T3 Coco he was able to Angel's Grace and Phyrexian Unlife until the combo was assembled. Any thoughts on this matchup? Probably not common enough to warrant dedicated SB slots, but splash hate would be OK.

MVPs were Voice, Thalia (might move to 3 SB) and the combo. Here's the list I played.

Planning on running this at MNM tonight. Going the beatdown route with CoCo and friends. * = cards I'm borrowing. I know there are at least two affinity players which is why I've got 4 dedicated SB slots. Played last week and a few people didn't know Steppe was a card, so I want to try that out. Also Want to make room for Scooze but don't know where. Any suggestions on the above or anything else would be great.

I went 2-2 with this list at the LGS last night.

R1: vs. Affinity [0-2]
Game one I kept Voice, Knight, Qasali and lands. I couldn't draw anything important as his t1 and t2 etched champions closed out the game.
Game two I kept 2 dorks, Goyf and stony silence. His T1 etched champion made me cry. Stoney Silence landed, a few turns later another champion hit the table and it was a grindy painful loss.
My opponent asked to see the list and believed he was lucky to get there vs Skites, Stoney Silence, EE and a deck that could have really pushed harder on the attack.
I need SB answers to champion. The rest of his deck was very beatable.

R2: vs. Yuya Watanabe's UW creature/ sun Titan/ Emeria deck. [2-0]
Game 1 I got there with an Elspeth pumped Goyf over a few turns.
Game two he verdicted my Noble Hierarch, Voice and Knight. Next turn I played Thrun. The rest of my hand was 2 Mana Leak and Negate. His Ojutai's Commands would have been good otherwise but GG.

Round 3: vs Grixis Twin [1-2]
This match wasn't real magic a lot of the time. T1 birds got bolted. T2 voice was met by Kolaghan's Command 2 dmg and discard. I dropped Smiter into play and swung for 6. Added Goyf to the board with path open and went to game 2.
Game two I was stuck on ghost quarter forest hallowed fountain for the entire game. I hung in for a while with counterspells on the pestermites and deceiver but he eventually just got there.
The 3rd game was just one of those ones where his answers lined up with my plays. He had combo in hand all game so I played it slow, but eventually had to act due to snap beats. I must say at this stage that my mana base didn't work well against twin. Negate and Dispell are not effective with only one blue source that can get tapped by exarch and co. Opponent said that he was afraid of CoCo the whole match. Might need to find a set.

Round 4: vs. Burn. [2-1]
Won game 1 on the back of the combo on my turn 3. He was stuck on 1 land on the play and I was at 7 life. I pumped knight to an 11/11 staying at a high life total based on a possible two mana representing 6 damage.
Game two he got me with a couple goblin guides, searing blaze, Boros charm ... The norm. My hand had birds, elephant and voice but awkward lands. I took 4 from lands which was not good. [flooded strand, ghost quarter].
Game three was pretty sweet. I played Heirarch, followed by tapped stomping ground and voice. Blocked guide, played voice and attacked for 4 with an exalted token. Then his rift bolt came off suspend, I prevented the damage and fought my 3/3 token against his 2/3 Swiftspear. The intent was he would have to use another spell to pump the spear and then I could block to trade, soaking up his cards and killing the Swiftspear. He only had two mountains and couldn't cast his Boros charms, so lost his 2/3 to the token. Then in his main phase he sighed and played a bloodstained mire. Poor sequencing cost him.

Overall it was fun to play. I think I will attempt CoCo next week and remove leaks and goyfs. I am very much on the no-Goyf-in-Bant school of though after testing him today. Voice on the other hand was great. Wolf run was also bad as I kept drawing it and straining the mana of my spells in hand. I used it to pump for 2 dmg once ...

Definitely room for improvement in this list!

Apologies for poor writing an. It's midnight on the train home and I'm typing on my iPhone 4!

Hi all, I'm planning on playing local modern weekly tomorrow and would love some feedback on a bant knight fall list.



I don't own CCs so can't swap to accommodate them. I do own Coursers and most other discussed cards from the thread. It's intended to have decent angles of attack and matchups across the board. This is the 1st time I've sleeves up in a while so I was wondering what cards over perform or underperform in a list like this.

Thanks in advance!

Hi all, long time lover of UWR midrange here. I haven't played UWR since it dropped out of favour to Grixis but wanted to reignite the flame with a different perspective on the game plan and what White has to offer.

I wrote this for the UWR midrange thread before I stumbled across the jeskai prowess. A lot has been discussed in here already but my list is definately crossing into midrange/ control more than the more tempo/ all-in prowess lists.



Consider:
Vapour Snag
- Return blocker or Mentor to hand.
Azorious Charm
- Prowess + life link, top a blocker.
Serum Visions
- Cantrip, prowess, smooth draws.
Think Twice
- End of turn play to hit more gas, prowess trigger, land drops later game.

This is theory-craft ATM, but I'm excited by the way the list has shaped up and wanted to share it with the community.

The obvious strategy is to use early disruption, drop a threat [with protection] and then quickly turn the tide. A pet idea of mine for the moment is Emerged Unscathed as a response to removal on Monastery Mentor which then pumps the team and creates an unblockable attacker next turn. It also can just double unblockable Geist for 1 mana. I realise multiple different coloured blockers stops this, but we have enough removal that I think it's feasible. That said, Emerge Unscathed could easily be more PtE or Vapor Snag. For now it fits the THEORY of what I'm trying to accomplish and is hence why it consumes two slots.

Gitaxian Probe is intended to be used BEFORE dropping a threat, but once a threat is on board it can also just be cycled through for prowess and finding relevant spells on the cheap.

Otherwise standard stuff, can swap to control very easily and close out games with burn, SCM and Collonade.

The intention is also to have a list which can a) win relatively fast via tempo and a high damage ceiling vs combo and control and b) play control vs other aggro lists - at least in theory leaving it with fewer weak matchups which is important in a format as diverse as modern.

Most cards are powerful by themselves and work very well in unison.

Any ideas and thoughts would be greatly appreciated, as long as they are in line with what I'm trying to achieve with the list.

Cheers in advance!

Traditionally Jund's removal and mid game creatures tend to beat Zoo lists. It follows the old paradigm of aggro loses to midrange loses to control loses to aggro. Although this is overly simplified and ignores combo [*cough amulet *cough] it's still something I consider when deck building. Hence midrange would like to be aggressive enough or resilient enough to beat control, whilst still blocking aggro. Cards like Geist for speed and Smiter for resilience and blocking etc work here. They are also obviously great vs Jund. Vs Bloom you could side out durdley cards like Coursers if you run them, in favour of disruption and aggression. Don't have much experience with zoo, so can only talk from a more midrange game style.

Great vids Lantern. Would love to watch some more from yourself and other testers. I watched them all and had to cringe quite a few times! You even called out the right plays then misclicked haha.

In game play CoCo was as hit and miss as expected (1 Hierarch vs Geist, Goyf and double Scooze.) This really makes CC a card I don't want to rely on to push ahead in a game or catch up. If you're already ahead, you likely want to hold it it hand in case of a sweeper etc. Overall it probably under performed, even just putting Geist in play with one in hand too.

Given the meta of that competition lightning bolt was also sub-par. Even having to make the decision to either wolf-run or bolt felt weird. The best 'Red' additional was easily Nacatl.

Shame retreat never really made a showing, although you did side it out a lot. Thalia was good from the board, as were the negates. Dromoka's would have been ok in all those matchups had it shown up too.

I think after watching that video I'm no closer to deciding on Bant vs Naya(u). All I know is that Geist should probably be included either way.

Keep it up!

Shouldn't need to force a tribal spell to pump Goyf. Has the potential to get big with Hangarback, Courser and Elspeth in midrange and is big enough at 4/5 in zoo. It also means playing a worse card that still pumps opposing Goyfs too.

Was brainstorming another flex slot, looking at 5 drops. I know Kola's Command wrecks Batterskull but with Academy Ruins maybe it's runnable. Wurmcoil same boat.

Another newish idea was Ajani, Mentor of Heroes. 3 1/1 counters on Hangarback, resetting finks post wipe, making a massive Geist vs. digging for Knight (gain 800 life lol). It's at least not bad! Also little Ajani, Caller of the Pride with 1/1 but a bit more aggro based.

Just brainstorming!

I see your point with Stubborn Denial. I played Spell Pierce in previous Bant lists for the same purpose; it doesn't slow you down and it's punishing if you're up to nasty business.

Spellskite can, in my experience, push hands into durdle mode given your list. For example, Voice, Skite, Courser, Hangarback and Lands. A hand with all good cards that could just do nothing for far too long. I don't have time to test though ATM so I'll have to take your word that it's performing alongside Ruins.

The Geist/ Hero suggestion wasn't to change the list, but add another angle of attack, in case the combo or control was giving the list problems. Smiter also fits the bill.

People seem to be overvaluing 'value' cards and the notion of a 2for1. You can also play cards that are resilient to 1for1s such as Smiter which ignores burn and counters, or the age-old finks. How many cards are needed to get rid of Sigarda?
Affinity plays 0 value cards, maybe thoughtcast, it just depends on what you're trying to do. It's a strength of the elves coco list, maybe our strength needs to be resilience instead. Or the ability to go over the top in the end game.

However a potential 2(+)for1 that is being overlooked ATM are sweepers. Between voice/ Hangarback / (finks) and follow up plays like Goyf, sweepers like supreme verdict may warrant testing against fair decks and fish. It could also act as a stall to try and dig for combo.

I'm just theory-crafting ATM for the sake of discussion. Happy to admit I'm wrong on every count as long as it can be explained to me why!

@Pokken I'm a fan of the approach you've taken and particularly interested in Hangarback as another reasonable card that we have the potential to abuse with RTC or Dromoka's Command etc.

What decks are you losing to?

From your list I think I'd cut 2 Courser and 2 Spellskite. But I would want the cards to address the weak spots. Maybe Geist to help combat combo and control. Also the Stubborn Denial seems forced given you only really have Goyf and KoTR to activate it, both of which are situational.

Also for those looking for 5-6 drops I do vouch for Sigarda. Play with her before judging ... 5/5 flying hexproof that avoids edicts is unsurprisingly hard to deal with. Another option at 4 is Hero of Bladehold. Can take over a game when your tapping blockers and avoids bolt/ decay. May not be the deck for it but I've run her in the past (with Lightning Greaves and Geist in Bant & BW Tokens) and she's a game ending curve topper.

Blind Research
1U Instant Uncommon
Draw two cards, then put two cards on top of your library in any order.
-One does not need sight in order to have a vision, although it does help.-


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