I've been trying a bunch of lists and this is the best one I came up with so far. Postmortem Lunge does very similar things as Traverse the Ulvenwald in my experience but doesn't have the same deck building restraint. This opens some slots for the Kuldotha Rebirth package. When the card is good, it is amazing and the zero drop creatures let you cast a Blood Moon on turn 1 when paired with Infernal Plunge. I think an alternate win condition is pretty necessary to win through ensnaring bridge/chalice of the void. Right now Grapeshot is my choice since I can mow down a bunch of creatures if I draw it early. Siege-Gang Commander and Zulaport Cutthroat are also considerations that I haven't tried. I've tried the aggro switch in the sideboard and it hasn't been very good for me, so I'm trying this sideboard configuration out.
Overall the combo seems too easy to disrupt in the current configuration, though the aggro plan B is pretty solid. I'm not sure where to go with the deck, but it still feels like it's missing something.
what is the use for DRS? i think you can replace it with another mana dork, that would work best, Birds of paradise might be better.
Yeah DRS can definitely be inconsistent for making mana, but it was actually added to slow down SCM decks and combo decks. In this role DRS is actually awesome and just has an added bonus of making extra mana.
i just created this account to comment. I just started play testing the deck and I am sometimes having trouble running out of cards too quickly due to the looting effects. Do you have any play tips to help with this or does is this just something that happens?
Hey I'm glad you're having fun playing the deck! Thanks for checking it out. One thing i have found with the deck is that you often want to wait until turn 2 to start using looting effects. This not only saves life but allows you to see one card deeper and have more cards to discard. The reasoning is similar to doing main phase brainstorm in legacy rather than end of turn. If you aren't looking for combo pieces however then go nuts and start setting up the kill as early as you can
This is an awesome combo deck. I'm not sure what else to add perhaps something with transmute so you can get that thing right in your hand?
Which thing are you referring to? I already have Dimir Machinations to transmute for one of the pieces. For Protean Hulk I am using Jarad's Orders to search for the Hulk and put him into the graveyard. If you think there are other cards to consider in these slots please link them since I definitely do not know every option.
With the release of Khans of Tarkhir, I am finally updating this post. Before KTK, this deck could be ridiculously fast, but would often just do nothing and simply die. Now however, I believe a Protean Hulk deck finally has the consistency to be a contender in the metagame. If you are unfamiliar with the combo, the core of the deck consists of
Have Body Double copy the recently deceased Protean Hulk and then sacrifice it to Viscera Seer, this time finding Reveillark and Mogg Fanatic. (If you think your opponent has removal for Viscera Seer repeat step 1 to get an extra copy into play.)
Now we should have a Viscera Seer (or two), a Mogg Fanatic, and a Reveillark in play. Ping with your Mogg Fanatic and then sacrifice your Reveillark with your Viscera Seer bringing back Body Double and Mogg Fanatic.
Have Body Double copy Reveillark. Then ping with your Mogg Fanatic and sacrifice your Body Double to Viscera Seer. Use the trigger from Body Double to bring back your Body Double and your Mogg Fanatic. Finally we repeat this final step until your opponent is dead.
This is the preferred combo since it takes up the fewest slots in the deck.
To start the combo, we use various looting effects and filtering like Faithless Looting, Izzet Charm, and Dig Through Time to discard Protean Hulk and get Footsteps of the Goryo into our hand. From there simply casting Footsteps targeting Protean Hulk will trigger our combo (hopefully on turn 3). Additionally Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek help us slow our opponents plan and protect our combo from counterspells and removal (especially Path to Exile since it exiles Protean Hulk).
Without further ado, here is the list I am currently on:
Sultai Charm is a newer addition and is worse than the other two cards in terms of actual looting. However, it has some distinct advantages in that it is not card disadvantage and can kill most of the hate cards people bring in against us (Rest in Peace, Relic of Progenitus, Linvala, Keeper of Silence, etc).
Filtering Dig Through Time has been an absolute all-star in my limited testing so far. It is extremely easy to turn on delve because of all our looting effects (just make sure not to remove the combo!), and going 7 cards deep will almost always win you the game next turn. This card by itself has added so much consistency to the deck it is unreal. Before this card was printed, this deck had trouble playing longer games because you would run out of gas due to the card disadvantage of your looting. I would not recommend any version of this deck without this card as a 4-of.
Serum Visions also helps us find what we need and put the extra cards on the bottom. Since I have put this in the deck I have never been unhappy to see it.
Though it doesn't actually filter, Gitaxian Probe cycles and lets us see if we need to play around any disruption. Additionally it helps fill the yard in order to delve.
Disruption
There are not many cards we care about that Thoughtseize hits that Inquisition of Kozilek does not hit. However, in a pinch we can target ourselves with Thoughtseize and discard a Protean Hulk. In my experience, discard is going to be much more helpful than any sort of counter magic in this deck. It is simply too hard to get into a position where we can go for the win and hold up the mana to protect ourselves. Instead, I think going after your opponents hand will slow down the fast decks enough and will strip the counters from the control player.
Lands
I am still trying to find the optimal mana base for this deck but the current list seems to be holding up decently. If you fear Blood Moon, then you need to try to fetch a basic swamp or a forest as soon as possible. If we have a swamp we can win through Blood Moon, and if we have a forest then we can usually find a way to kill it. The current list has two islands so I can't be disrupted off Dig Through Time mana and so far that hasn't been too much of a problem.
Playing your lands with this deck can be a little tricky since by turn three we usually want to have access to , , , and maybe even ! So keep that in mind when cracking your fetches.
Sideboard Options
I do not have a solid sideboard for this deck at the moment and am constantly moving stuff around to see what works. When sideboarding it is important to not sideboard more than maybe 4 cards from the deck, because we simply cannot dilute our deck that much. Some cards that might go into your sideboard include:
Abrupt Decay which is a nice catch-all against the graveyard hate that people board in. Additionally it can slow down a fast Delver of Secrets draw, or kill a Pestermite. I think this is one of our better, more flexible options.
Some more anti-hate cards we can bring in are Nature's Claim, Ancient Grudge, Krosan Grip, and Echoing Truth. They all have their own merits and you can mix-and-match any number of these in your sideboard. Ancient Grudge doubles as a potential sideboard option against affinity and sometimes tron, while Krosan Grip punishes people who try to sit on a Relic of Progenitus. Currently I am using more Nature's Claims and Echoing Truth because I am behind on the meta and they will answering most of the problems.
Some other options I like are Pact of Negation, Torpor Orb, Pyroclasm, Combust, and Slaughter Pact. Torpor Orb is funny because people try to bring it in against our deck and the only thing it shuts off is the evoke on Reveillark. Combust is nice because it hits Linvala, keeper of Silence and stops u/r twin. Slaughter Pact is also nice tech if you think you're going to be seeing Path to Exiles since you can respond by killing your own Hulk.
I have seen people boarding Hurkyl's Recall, Rakdos Charm, and Spellskites and they all seem to have their place, but I haven't tried any of them yet. I have tried Shadow of Doubt and though I like the effect, I never found a reason to dilute my deck by boarding it in.
Other Options
I choose to splash green in my version of the deck since it gives us much better sideboard options, however a straight grixis list could definitely work as well.
Running Gifts Ungiven seems like it could be very strong (especially in grixis), but I haven't looked into it enough. (It's hard for me to find a version that wouldn't be better as a different gifts deck.)
Tormenting Voice easily replaces Wild Guess in lists that ran it, and could be potentially be better than Sultai Charm since it gives another option for the turn 3 kill. Choosing this option helps fix the mana base at the cost of the flexibility of Sultai Charm. It is definitely a consideration, but currently I am liking the Sulati Charm.
Another option is to load up on some fast mana like Simian Spirit Guide, Seething Song, and Pentad Prism and try to cast Through the Breach. This list is very all-in and has a very tough time rebuilding after one counterspell. Additionally, having both Footsteps of the Goryo and Breach in the same deck felt very awkward at times. However, winning on turn 2 is pretty delightful. This version of the deck often runs Peer Through Depths to help dig quickly.
Thanks for reading and be sure to post your comments/improvements on the deck. I'll try to get some match-up information for this deck at some point but I haven't been able to play much modern lately.
This is my current modern brew. It uses the generic Protean Hulk combo kill and looting effects to try to kill on turn 3.
To win on turn 3, the deck will optimally play looting effects turn 1 and 2 to discard a Protean Hulk, and then reanimate the Hulk on turn 3 with Footsteps of the Goryo. At the end of the turn, when you sacrifice the hulk you find Viscera Seer and Body Double copying Protean Hulk. Then you sacrifice the Body Double with the Viscera Seer to find Mogg Fanatic and Reveillark. Finally you sacrifice Mogg Fanatic do deal 1 damage to your opponent, sacrifice Reveillark with Viscera Seer bring back Mogg Fanatic and Body Double copying Reveillark. From here you simply sacrifice the Mogg Fanatic to deal 1 damage and the Body Double to bring back the Body Double and the Mogg Fanatic and you have infinite damage.
If things do not go optimally, Thoughtseize can buy some time and the other modes of Izzet Charm can slow the game down enough to find your missing combo pieces. Dimir Machinations plays the role of Footsteps 5-7 as well as sometimes grabbing sideboard cards, and Jarad's Orders can put a Hulk into the graveyard as well as sometimes finding a Viscera Seer to play around Path to Exile, or a Body Double or Lark to hard cast next turn.
Sideboarding for this deck can be pretty difficult because it is important to not dilute the deck too much while still beating the hate that your opponent is likely to bring in.
-Against most decks it is correct to bring in some artifact or enchantment hate in anticipation of Relic of Progenitus and the like. Krosan Grip is the real all-star here since it kills enchantments and stops opponents from activating Relic in response, but Ancient Grudge and Abrupt Decay both fill this role as well.
-Against fast aggressive decks, Pyroclasm, Firespout and Abrupt Decay all can kill their creatures and slow them down.
-Inquisition of Kozilek mainly comes in against tempo decks and combo decks to strip them of resources.
-Boseiju, Who Shelters All is obviously there to get around decks with counterspells. This spot was once filled with Pact of Negations but since the inclusion of Grisly Salvage the Boseiju's have been much better for me.
-The Shadow of Doubt is still untested, and most likely should be something else but I want to see what they can do.
The deck's worst enemy is usually itself. Since there is no source of card advantage, the deck sometimes needs to rely heavily on the top decks to finish off games. Additionally, Faithless Looting and the like make mulliganning feel terrible. Tempo decks with heavy disruption can also be a problem since they are able to disrupt you and put pressure on you at the same time. Very fast aggro (or aggro combo) decks like RG aggro, affinity, or bogle, which pressure the life total can also be difficult on the draw because our lands can do a lot of damage to us.
However, this deck wins on turn 3 more than any other deck I have seen. Additionally, discard, especially non-targeted discard, is usually not too big of a problem and can even help you assemble the combo by discarding a Hulk. Against any deck that is just trying to ramp or play mid-range without counter backup, the deck feels very favored.
Any suggestions for improving the mana would be awesome and replacing the Shadow of Doubt from the sideboard would be nice as well. If anyone is able to somehow add card advantage that would be amazing. I might try some Desperate Ravings and see how they play but discarding spells randomly doesn't sound that fun.
All suggestions and critiques of the deck are welcome. Thanks for reading and if you have any questions on how something works or why something is in the deck please ask them!
I have been playing this deck all day online with a few small changes. I changed 1 Blood Crypt for another Mountain, I moved 1 Slaughter Pact to the sideboard for a third Harbinger, and replaced some Thoughtseizes with Inquistions since I'm poor.
I've found that against any combo deck I feel very favored both pre-board and post. Against Jund you feel very lucky to steal even a game. Besides combo and Jund everything else felt even or slightly favored (though Pod decks might have an advantage on you).
I ran into one mirror today and he had Death's Shadows in games 2 and 3 that successfully won my opponent those two games. Perhaps they could be considered in the 75 as another way to increase threat density.
Playing this deck is very different than what I had expected. You need to mulligan aggressively since without a creature you don't do much, and you need to be precise in your play since this deck can be extremely unforgiving at times (at other times you can attack with a 17/18 double striker on turn 2).
As Gaka said, the deck does not need to kill in one swing. In fact putting early pressure on them with 3/4 or 5/6 Nivmagus's is not uncommon. Also you can usually sneak in some early damage against Gofys and Wall of Roots, etc since your opponent won't want to risk throwing away a card.
I do have a few questions though:
What is the Faithless Looting for and when does that come in?
What are you taking out for the Clout and how effective has it been for you since it has been a little lackluster for me?
Is there anyway we could make sideboard space for some amount of Death's Shadow (perhaps -1 Looting, -1 Pyroclasm)?
Should we try to make the Jund match-up better or should we just worry about other things?
Force Spike just seems really bad to me. Since we're running the full set of dazes, good players will play around daze and will therefore be playing around force spike as well, even if they haven't seen it.
Hey I just stumbled across this deck and I think it's super interesting.
Just wondering what you guys think is an optimal number of turn 1 plays eg Signal Pest, Zephyr Sprite, Ornithopter? Also between Zephyr Sprite and Ornithopter which one has been better for you? Ornithopter can be played while still holding up Spell Snare, etc and can be replayed for free after ninjitsu, but Zephyr Sprite is blue for Force of Will, is a Faerie for Spellstutter Sprite, and can charge a Jitte by itself... Right now I'm leaning more towards the Zephyr Sprite but the more 1 mana counterspells I run the more I like Ornithopter.
Also how important is Cloud of Faeries to the deck (if not running Aether Vial)? Sometimes it can be worse than having a 1drop since it can't ninjitsu until turn 3. I haven't actually played the deck yet so I'm just theorizing at the moment but I would love to hear what you think.
How many 1 CMC counters are you running? I'm thinking three (2x Spell Snare, 1x Spell Pierce) is a good number but maybe you've had better luck with something else.
Finally what do your sideboards look like? This has been the hardest part for me to theorize about (as is usually the case). Right now my sideboard might be this
Yes, if I don't have an early Hedron Crab then it is a lot more difficult to assemble the combo but the way the deck has been working in practice is that the combo is more of a secondary win-con where if the board stalls I can usually take the game. I would like to fit more combo in so it will be more reliable but the problem I have with them is that I feel that they are just a little weak on their own. With the numbers I have now a Hedron Crab and a couple land drops (especially fetches) usually gets me the entire combo or just missing one piece. However, if they bolt the Crab early then I usually have a much harder time getting the combo to work.
I agree about the lack of card draw but I don't really know where it fits. What are you running in your list to help that problem? In an older list I had preordain which was always welcome when I drew it was never amazing.
The turn 3 win will almost never happen in practice but it is T1 forest BoP, T2 Cobra Island Renegade Doppleganger, T3 Crab Fetch (mill combo pieces or 4x vengevine) Myr Welder.
And in practice I have been seeing it more as a turn 5-8ish win but it loses if they burn my crabs and fauna shamans. I wish there was a way to make it more resilient and I might go back to adding black.
@JackMahone54
UG is perfectly acceptable and some people add either black or red as well. I think the black splash is a little stronger than the red one but I'm still not sure if the deck needs black.
You should read through the rest of the topic, some of these ideas have been gone through before.
The Ooze works better if you're running Fauna Shamans as well. This deck needs to move fast, and with all the milling, Fauna Shamans are amazing to get us combo pieces that we need. With Ooze, we can also work with a Shaman in the graveyard, as well as having it have the Masticore abilities or any other creature abilities you may be running (some are running Golem Artisans fairly well). Since you are milling so much, this can be useful, as you don't need those actual cards, just a Ooze. Also, it gains any abilities in the opponent's graveyard, which can only be beneficial. I don't personally run Oozes, but they are definitely something to consider, especially since we go be splashing black already anyways.
I think it is important to not clog up your deck with a lot of things that are getting in the way. A second win-con is a necessity, but I think it should be simpler and still fit with the general deck idea (Masticores, for example).
Was this directed at me? I was saying that the Oozes weren't very good in his deck and if you looked at that list you would notice that there were no Fauna Shamans in the deck... I agree that Ooze can be decent as Fauna Shaman 5-8 and isn't a bad body especially with Masticore in the graveyard.
However, as you said our second win-con should be simple and still fit with the plan of the deck and I don't think that Ooze is really good enough to make the list. I have been testing with Vengevines lately and they have been very good. A 4/3 haste on turn 2 that can just come back if they kill it is pretty hard to deal with.
Has anyone tried using Bonehoard as another threat? If you are running Hedron Crabs then it seems like it could get huge very quickly. It also leaves you less vulnerable to wraths and makes any creature a big threat.
Thanks for the write-up That Guy. What are your thoughts on the expensive permanents? It seems that with only 23 lands it could be hard to actually cast those spells when you want (like in game 3 against U/B).
Also Necrotic Ooze does next to nothing in this deck since it can't make infinite mana and it doesn't get the static ability on Myr Welder. All the Ooze does is use Masticore's ability sometimes.
Hellkite seems like it could be interesting on the Welder before you have the combo to blow up their side of the board. How often do you think you could get in with the Welder though? It seems fairly hard to set up since you need to tap the Welder to exile Hellkite and then the turn after attack. It just seems a little slow and too easily chumped.
I might start trying out the revoker because if they spend counters or removal on him then that means there are fewer for the welders.
Rule 607.2a:
"If an object has an activated or triggered ability printed on it that instructs a player to exile one or more cards and an ability printed on it that refers either to 'the exiled cards' or to cards 'exiled with ,' these abilities are linked. The second ability refers only to cards in the exile zone that were put there as a result of an instruction to exile them in the first ability."
So unfortunately we don't get the abilities from cards exiled with Masticore's ability.
As you can see my list is quite budgeted. My meta is rampant with aggro builds so my personal build has proven too slow.
Grand Architect: While it does speed it up slightly, and puts more poison counters with the nexsus, I'm doubting its validity.
Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas: I used to use his +1 ability all the time, now since I added the Nexsus, I find myself going for the poison kill rather than fetching the combo.
I haven't actually tested Tezzeret or Grand Architect but your list doesn't really have that many artifacts so you'll miss with Tezz a lot and you want combo pieces in your graveyard not your hand or in play (besides Welder).
With that being said I'm not sure about the inkmoth nexus. It is a nice blocker against agro and it works well with tezz if they don't have a response, but Masticore can't remove it and the colorless mana could be a little awkward if it's in your opening hand. All in all it seems okay but maybe not optimal.
As you said Horrifying Revelation isn't very good. I really like Enclave Cryptologist since it doesn't cause card disadvantage and still let's you discard combo pieces. You could possibly try Duress as it let's you hit their hand and discards either Lux Cannon or Khalni Gem.
And I still have a problem with spell finishers as you really don't want them in your graveyard as you have no way to get them back and they can be countered by a negate or something and there isn't anything you can really do about it. I would at least recommend dropping the Red Sun's Zenith since as then your mana just becomes better that way. The Blue Sun's Zenith might have a place since it can be just simple card draw if you aren't trying to combo yet but it seems hard to get enough mana to actually make it worthwhile.
I would recommend adding another Masticore or Golem Artisan (get's around Leyline as well but means you might run into condemn). Also Grim Discovery is very good if you go a more creature heavy route as it let's you return a milled Welder and a fetch so the crabs can do overtime.
Black Sun's Zenith: Kills aggro, but also kills the welder. I'm on the fence about its effectiveness in a deck that wants its creature out of bolt range.
Exsanguinate: Purely for the White Leyline. as it doesn't target the opponent.
I've always been a fan of Memoricide and it seems that it could be good. How has it been working in practice? Do you feel that it has enough of an impact to side out the cards that make the combo work better?
Revoker seems fine
As for Black Sun's Zenith I agree that it might be dangerous since leaves Welder in Bolt range but if you untap with Welder you probably already won anyways as you most likely won't play him before the rest of the combo is set up. So the draw back on it doesn't actually seem too bad. If you are worried though and you still want to keep the red, you could try slagstorm or pyroclasm as replacements since they won't permanently weaken the Welder.
If you have a singleton exanguinate won't it be much more likely to end up in the graveyard or still in the library when you need it? As I said earlier a Golem Artisan accomplishes a very similar goal but can actually be in either the graveyard or your hand when you go off.
Negate and Shimmer Myr seem fine.
Myr Reservoir does much the same thing that Grim Discovery does. Probably not much difference there.
Cards I'm considering:
Fauna Shaman: Seems to be working for everyone else Necrotic Ooze: Plan B Gigantomancer: Only if the Ooze package is included Kuldotha Phoenix: Its not often that I have Three artifacts in play, so I doubt it. Myr Galvanizer: Buff the welder Abuna Alcolyte: only for the Ooze package Augury Owl: I do need a better way to filter through the deck. Chimeric Mass: after you board wipe with the lux cannon, put a large ammount of counters on the welder and swing. Make it larger with the Mass's ability. Contagion Clasp / Contagion Engine: As I said, my meta is rampant with aggro, so it could work. Or could get them to lethal poison. Corrupted Conscience: Strictly sideboard. Glimmerpost / Golden Urn: Ugh, Ive died to quickly, the Urn is a more likely choice. Grindclock: Extra mill, i believe its infinite with the welder and galvanizer Reinforced Bulwark: Meh Steel Hellkite : Meh again Tangle Hulk: Alternative regeneration for the welder, instead of the masticore. BUDGET ONLY, the masticore should be played above this. Also works with the ooze package Tumble Magnet: Pretty good Thrummingbird: Synergy with Grand Architect, and puts counters on things. Poison too.
Haven't tried a lot of these but Fauna Shaman is really good at discarding your Soliton/Masticore and searching up your Welder. It does make you play green though.
Ooze doesn't really do much since it can't use Khalni Gem's ability.
Clasp and Engine seem interesting especially if you leave in the inkmoth nexus since proliferate doesn't target.
Grindclock could be okay but it seems too slow.
Tumble Magnet could be good to tap down sworded hawks (though getting hit with either sword really isn't that bad) or an early primeval titan from Valakut.
The rest seem pretty lackluster but who knows maybe they work better than I think.
I think that to make this deck more competitive it needs to be faster or it needs to be more resilient. To make it faster Birds of Paradise, Lotus Cobra and Renegade Doppelganger all help. And to make it more resilient Vengevine gives an alternative win condition that fits with the theme of the deck. Unfortunately I do not have access to Lotus Cobras or Vengevines but if I did I would make a deck that looked something like this.
This looks more like a dredgevine deck than the previous incarnations but it still has the ability to pull off an infinite combo with myr welder fairly easily. I dropped the Grim Discoveries in this deck because although they are very good at reclaiming milled welders, they slow the deck down and as long as we can win without the welders then they seem unnecessary.
The deck runs only 22 lands and I would like to be able to fit another land in there somewhere. Also a 4th Lotus Cobra and a singleton Golem Artisan could be good as well. If you haven't tried artisan in this deck then you really should cause it can win games that Masticore can't (ie not enough creatures in your graveyard).
No sideboard because I can't test this list but it could include spell pierce, nature's claim, turn aside, unified will, dispell, mana leak, wall of tanglecord, overgrown battlement. I don't think ratchet bomb would be very good because more often than not it will kill too many of your own things but there might be a case for it.
Well tell me what you guys think but I think that this deck could actually be competitive since there is almost no graveyard hate right now and if people are busy dealing with vengevines then myr welder can find you the win. It also seems very fast with a possible turn 3 win and probably a pretty consistent turn 4-6 win.
Overall the combo seems too easy to disrupt in the current configuration, though the aggro plan B is pretty solid. I'm not sure where to go with the deck, but it still feels like it's missing something.
4 Skirk Prospector
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Bushwhacker
3 Wild Cantor
4 Memnite
2 Ornithopter
Enchantment
4 Fecundity
Sorcery
3 Commune with the Gods
4 Empty the Warrens
4 Infernal Plunge
3 Kuldotha Rebirth
2 Postmortem Lunge
1 Faithless Looting
1 Grapeshot
3 Mountain
1 Forest
2 Copperline Gorge
3 Stomping Ground
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Blood Moon
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Nature's Claim
2 Spellskite
1 Sweltering Sun's
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Blood Crypt
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Breeding Pool
2 Island
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
4 Dig Through Time
4 Izzet Charm
2 Sultai Charm
4 Faithless Looting
4 Footsteps of the Goryo
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Serum Visions
3 Thoughtseize
2 Body Double
1 Mogg Fanatic
4 Protean Hulk
1 Reveillark
2 Viscera Seer
I updated the main post with a bunch new information so please check it out.
Yeah DRS can definitely be inconsistent for making mana, but it was actually added to slow down SCM decks and combo decks. In this role DRS is actually awesome and just has an added bonus of making extra mana.
Hey I'm glad you're having fun playing the deck! Thanks for checking it out. One thing i have found with the deck is that you often want to wait until turn 2 to start using looting effects. This not only saves life but allows you to see one card deeper and have more cards to discard. The reasoning is similar to doing main phase brainstorm in legacy rather than end of turn. If you aren't looking for combo pieces however then go nuts and start setting up the kill as early as you can
Which thing are you referring to? I already have Dimir Machinations to transmute for one of the pieces. For Protean Hulk I am using Jarad's Orders to search for the Hulk and put him into the graveyard. If you think there are other cards to consider in these slots please link them since I definitely do not know every option.
With the release of Khans of Tarkhir, I am finally updating this post. Before KTK, this deck could be ridiculously fast, but would often just do nothing and simply die. Now however, I believe a Protean Hulk deck finally has the consistency to be a contender in the metagame. If you are unfamiliar with the combo, the core of the deck consists of
To complete the combo you follow these steps,
- Have a Protean Hulk die, allowing you to find a Body Double and a Viscera Seer.
- Have Body Double copy the recently deceased Protean Hulk and then sacrifice it to Viscera Seer, this time finding Reveillark and Mogg Fanatic. (If you think your opponent has removal for Viscera Seer repeat step 1 to get an extra copy into play.)
- Now we should have a Viscera Seer (or two), a Mogg Fanatic, and a Reveillark in play. Ping with your Mogg Fanatic and then sacrifice your Reveillark with your Viscera Seer bringing back Body Double and Mogg Fanatic.
- Have Body Double copy Reveillark. Then ping with your Mogg Fanatic and sacrifice your Body Double to Viscera Seer. Use the trigger from Body Double to bring back your Body Double and your Mogg Fanatic. Finally we repeat this final step until your opponent is dead.
This is the preferred combo since it takes up the fewest slots in the deck.To start the combo, we use various looting effects and filtering like Faithless Looting, Izzet Charm, and Dig Through Time to discard Protean Hulk and get Footsteps of the Goryo into our hand. From there simply casting Footsteps targeting Protean Hulk will trigger our combo (hopefully on turn 3). Additionally Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek help us slow our opponents plan and protect our combo from counterspells and removal (especially Path to Exile since it exiles Protean Hulk).
Without further ado, here is the list I am currently on:
1 Blood Crypt
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Breeding Pool
2 Island
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
4 Dig Through Time
4 Izzet Charm
2 Sultai Charm
4 Faithless Looting
4 Footsteps of the Goryo
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Serum Visions
3 Thoughtseize
2 Body Double
1 Mogg Fanatic
4 Protean Hulk
1 Reveillark
2 Viscera Seer
Looting Effects
Faithless Looting and Izzet Charm are both fantastic in this deck and let you cheaply bin your creatures while digging for Footsteps of the Goryo.
Sultai Charm is a newer addition and is worse than the other two cards in terms of actual looting. However, it has some distinct advantages in that it is not card disadvantage and can kill most of the hate cards people bring in against us (Rest in Peace, Relic of Progenitus, Linvala, Keeper of Silence, etc).
Filtering
Dig Through Time has been an absolute all-star in my limited testing so far. It is extremely easy to turn on delve because of all our looting effects (just make sure not to remove the combo!), and going 7 cards deep will almost always win you the game next turn. This card by itself has added so much consistency to the deck it is unreal. Before this card was printed, this deck had trouble playing longer games because you would run out of gas due to the card disadvantage of your looting. I would not recommend any version of this deck without this card as a 4-of.
Serum Visions also helps us find what we need and put the extra cards on the bottom. Since I have put this in the deck I have never been unhappy to see it.
Though it doesn't actually filter, Gitaxian Probe cycles and lets us see if we need to play around any disruption. Additionally it helps fill the yard in order to delve.
Disruption
There are not many cards we care about that Thoughtseize hits that Inquisition of Kozilek does not hit. However, in a pinch we can target ourselves with Thoughtseize and discard a Protean Hulk. In my experience, discard is going to be much more helpful than any sort of counter magic in this deck. It is simply too hard to get into a position where we can go for the win and hold up the mana to protect ourselves. Instead, I think going after your opponents hand will slow down the fast decks enough and will strip the counters from the control player.
Lands
I am still trying to find the optimal mana base for this deck but the current list seems to be holding up decently. If you fear Blood Moon, then you need to try to fetch a basic swamp or a forest as soon as possible. If we have a swamp we can win through Blood Moon, and if we have a forest then we can usually find a way to kill it. The current list has two islands so I can't be disrupted off Dig Through Time mana and so far that hasn't been too much of a problem.
Playing your lands with this deck can be a little tricky since by turn three we usually want to have access to
Sideboard Options
I do not have a solid sideboard for this deck at the moment and am constantly moving stuff around to see what works. When sideboarding it is important to not sideboard more than maybe 4 cards from the deck, because we simply cannot dilute our deck that much. Some cards that might go into your sideboard include:
Abrupt Decay which is a nice catch-all against the graveyard hate that people board in. Additionally it can slow down a fast Delver of Secrets draw, or kill a Pestermite. I think this is one of our better, more flexible options.
Some more anti-hate cards we can bring in are Nature's Claim, Ancient Grudge, Krosan Grip, and Echoing Truth. They all have their own merits and you can mix-and-match any number of these in your sideboard. Ancient Grudge doubles as a potential sideboard option against affinity and sometimes tron, while Krosan Grip punishes people who try to sit on a Relic of Progenitus. Currently I am using more Nature's Claims and Echoing Truth because I am behind on the meta and they will answering most of the problems.
Some other options I like are Pact of Negation, Torpor Orb, Pyroclasm, Combust, and Slaughter Pact. Torpor Orb is funny because people try to bring it in against our deck and the only thing it shuts off is the evoke on Reveillark. Combust is nice because it hits Linvala, keeper of Silence and stops u/r twin. Slaughter Pact is also nice tech if you think you're going to be seeing Path to Exiles since you can respond by killing your own Hulk.
I have seen people boarding Hurkyl's Recall, Rakdos Charm, and Spellskites and they all seem to have their place, but I haven't tried any of them yet. I have tried Shadow of Doubt and though I like the effect, I never found a reason to dilute my deck by boarding it in.
Other Options
I choose to splash green in my version of the deck since it gives us much better sideboard options, however a straight grixis list could definitely work as well.
Running Gifts Ungiven seems like it could be very strong (especially in grixis), but I haven't looked into it enough. (It's hard for me to find a version that wouldn't be better as a different gifts deck.)
Ideas Unbound and Grisly Salvage I think have become obsoleted by Dig Through Time, but maybe there is still room for them in some list.
Tormenting Voice easily replaces Wild Guess in lists that ran it, and could be potentially be better than Sultai Charm since it gives another option for the turn 3 kill. Choosing this option helps fix the mana base at the cost of the flexibility of Sultai Charm. It is definitely a consideration, but currently I am liking the Sulati Charm.
Another option is to load up on some fast mana like Simian Spirit Guide, Seething Song, and Pentad Prism and try to cast Through the Breach. This list is very all-in and has a very tough time rebuilding after one counterspell. Additionally, having both Footsteps of the Goryo and Breach in the same deck felt very awkward at times. However, winning on turn 2 is pretty delightful. This version of the deck often runs Peer Through Depths to help dig quickly.
Thanks for reading and be sure to post your comments/improvements on the deck. I'll try to get some match-up information for this deck at some point but I haven't been able to play much modern lately.
2 Blood Crypt
1 Breeding Pool
4 City of Brass
1 Forest
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Stomping Ground
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
Creatures:
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Viscera Seer
1 Mogg Fanatic
2 Body Double
2 Reveillark
4 Protean Hulk
4 Izzet Charm
4 Grisly Salvage
2 Thoughtseize
4 Faithless Looting
3 Dimir Machinations
2 Jarad's Orders
4 Footsteps of the Goryo
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Pyroclasm
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Krosan Grip
2 Firespout
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
2 Shadow of Doubt
To win on turn 3, the deck will optimally play looting effects turn 1 and 2 to discard a Protean Hulk, and then reanimate the Hulk on turn 3 with Footsteps of the Goryo. At the end of the turn, when you sacrifice the hulk you find Viscera Seer and Body Double copying Protean Hulk. Then you sacrifice the Body Double with the Viscera Seer to find Mogg Fanatic and Reveillark. Finally you sacrifice Mogg Fanatic do deal 1 damage to your opponent, sacrifice Reveillark with Viscera Seer bring back Mogg Fanatic and Body Double copying Reveillark. From here you simply sacrifice the Mogg Fanatic to deal 1 damage and the Body Double to bring back the Body Double and the Mogg Fanatic and you have infinite damage.
If things do not go optimally, Thoughtseize can buy some time and the other modes of Izzet Charm can slow the game down enough to find your missing combo pieces. Dimir Machinations plays the role of Footsteps 5-7 as well as sometimes grabbing sideboard cards, and Jarad's Orders can put a Hulk into the graveyard as well as sometimes finding a Viscera Seer to play around Path to Exile, or a Body Double or Lark to hard cast next turn.
Sideboarding for this deck can be pretty difficult because it is important to not dilute the deck too much while still beating the hate that your opponent is likely to bring in.
-Against most decks it is correct to bring in some artifact or enchantment hate in anticipation of Relic of Progenitus and the like. Krosan Grip is the real all-star here since it kills enchantments and stops opponents from activating Relic in response, but Ancient Grudge and Abrupt Decay both fill this role as well.
-Against fast aggressive decks, Pyroclasm, Firespout and Abrupt Decay all can kill their creatures and slow them down.
-Inquisition of Kozilek mainly comes in against tempo decks and combo decks to strip them of resources.
-Boseiju, Who Shelters All is obviously there to get around decks with counterspells. This spot was once filled with Pact of Negations but since the inclusion of Grisly Salvage the Boseiju's have been much better for me.
-The Shadow of Doubt is still untested, and most likely should be something else but I want to see what they can do.
The deck's worst enemy is usually itself. Since there is no source of card advantage, the deck sometimes needs to rely heavily on the top decks to finish off games. Additionally, Faithless Looting and the like make mulliganning feel terrible. Tempo decks with heavy disruption can also be a problem since they are able to disrupt you and put pressure on you at the same time. Very fast aggro (or aggro combo) decks like RG aggro, affinity, or bogle, which pressure the life total can also be difficult on the draw because our lands can do a lot of damage to us.
However, this deck wins on turn 3 more than any other deck I have seen. Additionally, discard, especially non-targeted discard, is usually not too big of a problem and can even help you assemble the combo by discarding a Hulk. Against any deck that is just trying to ramp or play mid-range without counter backup, the deck feels very favored.
Any suggestions for improving the mana would be awesome and replacing the Shadow of Doubt from the sideboard would be nice as well. If anyone is able to somehow add card advantage that would be amazing. I might try some Desperate Ravings and see how they play but discarding spells randomly doesn't sound that fun.
All suggestions and critiques of the deck are welcome. Thanks for reading and if you have any questions on how something works or why something is in the deck please ask them!
I've found that against any combo deck I feel very favored both pre-board and post. Against Jund you feel very lucky to steal even a game. Besides combo and Jund everything else felt even or slightly favored (though Pod decks might have an advantage on you).
I ran into one mirror today and he had Death's Shadows in games 2 and 3 that successfully won my opponent those two games. Perhaps they could be considered in the 75 as another way to increase threat density.
Playing this deck is very different than what I had expected. You need to mulligan aggressively since without a creature you don't do much, and you need to be precise in your play since this deck can be extremely unforgiving at times (at other times you can attack with a 17/18 double striker on turn 2).
As Gaka said, the deck does not need to kill in one swing. In fact putting early pressure on them with 3/4 or 5/6 Nivmagus's is not uncommon. Also you can usually sneak in some early damage against Gofys and Wall of Roots, etc since your opponent won't want to risk throwing away a card.
I do have a few questions though:
What is the Faithless Looting for and when does that come in?
What are you taking out for the Clout and how effective has it been for you since it has been a little lackluster for me?
Is there anyway we could make sideboard space for some amount of Death's Shadow (perhaps -1 Looting, -1 Pyroclasm)?
Should we try to make the Jund match-up better or should we just worry about other things?
Just wondering what you guys think is an optimal number of turn 1 plays eg Signal Pest, Zephyr Sprite, Ornithopter? Also between Zephyr Sprite and Ornithopter which one has been better for you? Ornithopter can be played while still holding up Spell Snare, etc and can be replayed for free after ninjitsu, but Zephyr Sprite is blue for Force of Will, is a Faerie for Spellstutter Sprite, and can charge a Jitte by itself... Right now I'm leaning more towards the Zephyr Sprite but the more 1 mana counterspells I run the more I like Ornithopter.
Also how important is Cloud of Faeries to the deck (if not running Aether Vial)? Sometimes it can be worse than having a 1drop since it can't ninjitsu until turn 3. I haven't actually played the deck yet so I'm just theorizing at the moment but I would love to hear what you think.
How many 1 CMC counters are you running? I'm thinking three (2x Spell Snare, 1x Spell Pierce) is a good number but maybe you've had better luck with something else.
Finally what do your sideboards look like? This has been the hardest part for me to theorize about (as is usually the case). Right now my sideboard might be this
1x Spell Pierce
2x Blue Elemental Blast
3x Back to Basics
3x Submerge
4x Relic of Progenitus
I agree about the lack of card draw but I don't really know where it fits. What are you running in your list to help that problem? In an older list I had preordain which was always welcome when I drew it was never amazing.
The turn 3 win will almost never happen in practice but it is T1 forest BoP, T2 Cobra Island Renegade Doppleganger, T3 Crab Fetch (mill combo pieces or 4x vengevine) Myr Welder.
And in practice I have been seeing it more as a turn 5-8ish win but it loses if they burn my crabs and fauna shamans. I wish there was a way to make it more resilient and I might go back to adding black.
@JackMahone54
UG is perfectly acceptable and some people add either black or red as well. I think the black splash is a little stronger than the red one but I'm still not sure if the deck needs black.
Was this directed at me? I was saying that the Oozes weren't very good in his deck and if you looked at that list you would notice that there were no Fauna Shamans in the deck... I agree that Ooze can be decent as Fauna Shaman 5-8 and isn't a bad body especially with Masticore in the graveyard.
However, as you said our second win-con should be simple and still fit with the plan of the deck and I don't think that Ooze is really good enough to make the list. I have been testing with Vengevines lately and they have been very good. A 4/3 haste on turn 2 that can just come back if they kill it is pretty hard to deal with.
Has anyone tried using Bonehoard as another threat? If you are running Hedron Crabs then it seems like it could get huge very quickly. It also leaves you less vulnerable to wraths and makes any creature a big threat.
Also Necrotic Ooze does next to nothing in this deck since it can't make infinite mana and it doesn't get the static ability on Myr Welder. All the Ooze does is use Masticore's ability sometimes.
Hellkite seems like it could be interesting on the Welder before you have the combo to blow up their side of the board. How often do you think you could get in with the Welder though? It seems fairly hard to set up since you need to tap the Welder to exile Hellkite and then the turn after attack. It just seems a little slow and too easily chumped.
I might start trying out the revoker because if they spend counters or removal on him then that means there are fewer for the welders.
Rule 607.2a:
"If an object has an activated or triggered ability printed on it that instructs a player to exile one or more cards and an ability printed on it that refers either to 'the exiled cards' or to cards 'exiled with ,' these abilities are linked. The second ability refers only to cards in the exile zone that were put there as a result of an instruction to exile them in the first ability."
So unfortunately we don't get the abilities from cards exiled with Masticore's ability.
I haven't actually tested Tezzeret or Grand Architect but your list doesn't really have that many artifacts so you'll miss with Tezz a lot and you want combo pieces in your graveyard not your hand or in play (besides Welder).
With that being said I'm not sure about the inkmoth nexus. It is a nice blocker against agro and it works well with tezz if they don't have a response, but Masticore can't remove it and the colorless mana could be a little awkward if it's in your opening hand. All in all it seems okay but maybe not optimal.
As you said Horrifying Revelation isn't very good. I really like Enclave Cryptologist since it doesn't cause card disadvantage and still let's you discard combo pieces. You could possibly try Duress as it let's you hit their hand and discards either Lux Cannon or Khalni Gem.
And I still have a problem with spell finishers as you really don't want them in your graveyard as you have no way to get them back and they can be countered by a negate or something and there isn't anything you can really do about it. I would at least recommend dropping the Red Sun's Zenith since as then your mana just becomes better that way. The Blue Sun's Zenith might have a place since it can be just simple card draw if you aren't trying to combo yet but it seems hard to get enough mana to actually make it worthwhile.
I would recommend adding another Masticore or Golem Artisan (get's around Leyline as well but means you might run into condemn). Also Grim Discovery is very good if you go a more creature heavy route as it let's you return a milled Welder and a fetch so the crabs can do overtime.
I've always been a fan of Memoricide and it seems that it could be good. How has it been working in practice? Do you feel that it has enough of an impact to side out the cards that make the combo work better?
Revoker seems fine
As for Black Sun's Zenith I agree that it might be dangerous since leaves Welder in Bolt range but if you untap with Welder you probably already won anyways as you most likely won't play him before the rest of the combo is set up. So the draw back on it doesn't actually seem too bad. If you are worried though and you still want to keep the red, you could try slagstorm or pyroclasm as replacements since they won't permanently weaken the Welder.
If you have a singleton exanguinate won't it be much more likely to end up in the graveyard or still in the library when you need it? As I said earlier a Golem Artisan accomplishes a very similar goal but can actually be in either the graveyard or your hand when you go off.
Negate and Shimmer Myr seem fine.
Myr Reservoir does much the same thing that Grim Discovery does. Probably not much difference there.
Haven't tried a lot of these but Fauna Shaman is really good at discarding your Soliton/Masticore and searching up your Welder. It does make you play green though.
Ooze doesn't really do much since it can't use Khalni Gem's ability.
Clasp and Engine seem interesting especially if you leave in the inkmoth nexus since proliferate doesn't target.
Grindclock could be okay but it seems too slow.
Tumble Magnet could be good to tap down sworded hawks (though getting hit with either sword really isn't that bad) or an early primeval titan from Valakut.
The rest seem pretty lackluster but who knows maybe they work better than I think.
7 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Enclave Cryptologist
4 Hedron Crab
4 Fauna Shaman
3 Lotus Cobra
4 Renegade Doppelganger
4 Myr Welder
4 Vengevine
2 Molten-Tail Masticore
2 Soliton
This looks more like a dredgevine deck than the previous incarnations but it still has the ability to pull off an infinite combo with myr welder fairly easily. I dropped the Grim Discoveries in this deck because although they are very good at reclaiming milled welders, they slow the deck down and as long as we can win without the welders then they seem unnecessary.
The deck runs only 22 lands and I would like to be able to fit another land in there somewhere. Also a 4th Lotus Cobra and a singleton Golem Artisan could be good as well. If you haven't tried artisan in this deck then you really should cause it can win games that Masticore can't (ie not enough creatures in your graveyard).
No sideboard because I can't test this list but it could include spell pierce, nature's claim, turn aside, unified will, dispell, mana leak, wall of tanglecord, overgrown battlement. I don't think ratchet bomb would be very good because more often than not it will kill too many of your own things but there might be a case for it.
Well tell me what you guys think but I think that this deck could actually be competitive since there is almost no graveyard hate right now and if people are busy dealing with vengevines then myr welder can find you the win. It also seems very fast with a possible turn 3 win and probably a pretty consistent turn 4-6 win.