Achilles // Menin RRR
Legendary Creature - Human
Indestructible
Whenever another legendary creature you control dies, flip Achilles.
3/3
Begin the tale of godlike Achilles - a warrior with no peer
Menin
Legendary Enchantment Creature - God
Indestructible
Whenever Menin attacks, destroy target creature.
Sacrifice the creature you control with the greatest power, flip Menin. Any player may activate this ability.
Sing, Goddess, Achilles' rage, Black and murderous
5/1
IIW: Guild cards that subvert their general stereotype (EX: Dimir Robin Hood, Boros Coward)
Land base seems super weird to me. 4 Llanowar and 2 Pendlehaven both seem risky, and going up to 21 lands when you already removed staying power from the deck seems... questionable? Maybe I'm missing something.
I'm very interested in the base idea of ditching the value for more aggro, but why not + 1 Mimic -1 Throne? Mimic seems pretty vital here to blitz out things fast if that's the plan (Maybe his idea is just to drop everything that get 1 for 1'd?). A lot of decks nowadays are good at removing overseer, and also weaker to faster board states, so I'm on board with at least testing it.
Y'all,
How do we beat Whir prison? I need help with good sideboard options and optimal lines of play.
Also, Pheonix is a pretty bad matchup...Thoughts here too?
Best,
Tasigurl
OK so it's honestly really hard, but there are a couple ways to actually kill them:
1. Skip around bridge with an Inkmoth Nexus, a Walking Ballista, or even a Spellskite postboard. [Doesn't work if they spyglass ravager]
2. Use Animation Module to proliferate their chalices to 3/4 if possible.
3. Get a lucky Nature's Claim that lets you get through.
4. Side out cards that are slow// cards that don't get around their nonsense. So - Steel Overseer, - Welding Jar, -throne of geth
Side note: What do we think of decks cutting Evolutionary Leap for 4th Welding Jar?
Utopian Diplomacy 4GW
Enchantment
When Utopian Diplomacy enters the battlefield, gain control of target creature as long as Utopian Diplomacy remains in play.
Thirty gold just to talk.
Medicine for my wife to lay down my sword.
A house for my family to pick it back up.
IIW: Competitive linchpin card for an underused tribe.
Party Pooper Speech:
It's certainly a cool idea (I may steal it for casual), but unfortunately, I don't think you'll find much success with this in modern. There are two principle problems here:
1. The cards in the deck are very bad without high alert
2. You don't have a good way to either stall out, or find high alert quickly
3. Your main game plan isn't even necessarily stronger on a card for card basis when it is working. Spirits or Rock or Humans all present bigger creatures than 4/4's, which your wizards require high alert to morph in to.
Zur is too slow at 4 mana, and that's assuming he actually gets to attack. High alert won't be present all the time, and even when it is, it'll only start really threatening people on turn 5 or so (after you've dropped more wizards on turn 4).
Compare this to popular budget decks like 8-whack or No-Fetches storm, and you see a clear plan that presents game ending threats by turn 4 or 5.
Actual Ideas
If you want to stick with the High Alert theme, I'd strongly consider ditching the wizards theme for a set of cards which is strong by itself. If not, at least consider maybe going bant for Assault formation as well for a more stable game plan, and leaving Zur out of it. For example, these cards have high toughness but are nevertheless useful on their own to varying degrees:
I'm not sure if it would be busted, but it would be played in some sort of dredge variant + bridge. Basically, this gives you another 4 hits that are "immediate" for prized amalgam, that also dont require a land like bloodghast does.
You can adjust the deck by adding more sticher's suppliers and maybe a sac outlet like viscera seer to increase black density. It seems pretty dooable?
See weirdly I'd be quite on-board with Deathrite if only it cost (G) and was a 1/1. Like it's stupid powerful, fine, but honestly it seems like it'd be nice as a regulating force in modern. The main problem I have with it is that every black deck also plays it.
I reiterate, I want to see containment priest and leovold, emissary of trest.
Also, dredge would 1000% play ichorid. The list would just look a bit different. (Think closer to bridgevine, but now it can also grind you out and is faster)
Has Gokurou ever asserted that modern is the best it's ever been in relation to the current phoenix meta? I keep seeing Renegade Rallier mention it over and over in response to posts that don't contain the statement.
Anyway, I'm probably a bit biased because I am very fond of Vengevine, but I'd actually prefer targeted bans at each of the "problem" decks even though it's "messier". For example, I'd very much prefer bans on Phoenix, Creeping Chill to bans on manamorphose or faithless looting. I don't like causing huge amounts of splash damage, and without the payoffs, the meta seems like it would shift back to the humans one, which most people were fine with.
Also, i don't think Hardened Scales gets dominant in the new meta. The matchup against control is so miserable that it might actually be worse.
The only thing I find a bit odd is that it seems like the meta before Izzet Phoenix was somehow pretty good? I might be misremembering, but UW and UWR were both top 8. I think spirits was the best deck [kci was maybe the "real" best though], and BG was top 8 as well. Dredge was around 3rd. Hardened scales and Burn also hanging out. Storm//Titan//Valakut randomly winning tournies
It doesn't seem immediately obvious to me why UR phoenix has forced all the more interactive decks out of the metagame. If anything, the UW matchup looks pretty good for UW? I've only played like 8 total games in that matchup recently though.
There was only 1 burn deck in the top 32? How is that possible? and look at the top cards played right now...
Looks like the Steel overseer has "won" over Mimic and Llanowar Reborn is "better" than Ruins of Oran-Rief which I still don't understand
edit: How can WOTC not reprint Surgical Extraction and Manamorphose in some stupid from the vault: Spells set? These ******* prices...
Yeah, and overseer is honestly nearly as fast as mimic in many cases, especially if there is no HS resolved. In games where you are rushing down, it's just way better in general.
The reason that Llanowar Reborn is better than Ruins of Oran-Rief is threefold:
1. Green - this is actually really important. We're cutting so much green for Darksteels and Inkmoths that those last few land slots are relatively precious.
2. Mana Efficient - You don't have to pay for the graft counter, which is actually kind of huge because of how Modern be right now (Top Deck Phoenix, 2nd Deck Dredge). Oran Rief is something that isn't likely to contribute more than llanowar did to the board state by turn 4-5, which is honestly around when games are usually decided.
EX: turn 3 llanowar -> grafted ballista (4/4) -> turn 4 casting 2, 2drops -> turn 5 casting something
turn 3 ruins -> non-grafted ballista (2/2) -> turn 4 casting 2, 2 drops -> turn 5 using oran rief for the first time
3. Redundancy - The time when Oran Rief is really good is when you're in top deck mode. However, the problem here is that the deck does either remarkably well in equivalent topdeck wars with decks like GB or even Grixis now, and remarkably terribly in topdeck wars against decks like UW or Prison. So it ends up being redundant or not useful where it's supposed to be great.
Soooo how's this deck doing? Just recently got into it again after not playing for a couple of months, hope it's not a flash in the pan lol.It isn't dead but there's not much discussion for the new stock lists in the current meta.
What's the consensus on new stock lists and the some oddball stuff on the recent top 8 lists like:
Llanowar reborn
Gemstone Caverns
Mimic vs Overseer
Llanowar reborn is such a headscratcher because new lists run 2-3 and it's seems awfully slow but a lot of people swear by it, how good is G: graft 1 really?
The thing about this deck is that it's actually super mana inefficient a lot of the time. Most of the stuff you want to play is 2 drops, and a lot of the time you end up leaving one land untapped anyway. So playing llanowar + ballista on turn 3 might not be so bad. Overall I think that it seems like a reasonable addition to the deck.
Honestly I think Gavony is pretty shady, we already cut a lot of forests as it is, access to white is questionable, and we don't exactly run a lot of mana. I guess when it works it's nice, but the other fringe colorless options seem more relevant (Phyrexia's Core, More Blinkmoths)
Overall the deck is doing better now than it has been before chiefly because:
1. GDS cut their K-commands to the side, and even then they cut down on the side K-commands
2. KCI disappeared and took a lot of stonies with it
3. UW is getting beat down by the top decks atm.
I'd say it's definitely a top 8 deck, but probably not top4
Free / 1 cmc general counters seem way to strong though. That just tilts the axis the other way honestly. They might be ok if they force card disadvantage though? (I actually might not mind Force of Will... though that may be a stretch).
Normal counterspell I don't even see having a major effect on the format. Maybe UW goes up to like 5% or something.
Maybe a reprint on common "fair police" creatures in legacy could help? I'd like to see what Containment Priest or Leovold, Emissary of Trest might do for the meta. Both seem fairly innocuous to be honest, just strengthening creature decks' ability to fight phoenix/dredge/company and cantrip/faithless looting/manamorphose chains respectively.
Also personally Sultai is my favorite wedge and BW is my favorite guild, so maybe i'll get new pet decks.
Hey all, how are you playing against Amulet Titan? It's all over my store right now, and I'm trying to think of something to put in to go with the Damping Spheres lol.
Not gonna get super deep into it, but I enjoy modern right now, mostly because I'm fine with linear decks. Big tournaments have ever been a gamble, and I actually prefer playing a linear strategy when I attend one regardless. For those who don't enjoy linear strategy, it's not like Death's Shadow, Rock, or UW are non-viable.
However, I do concede that it does seem like linear strategy tends to win in modern more than anything else. It's inarguable that the other eternal format, Legacy, is more interactive, given the dominance that blue enjoys there. Some people like that more, and that's fine.
Bear in mind while you keep making disparaging remarks up there on your high horse that those users are the ones who still care enough about the Modern format to make their opinions known. There are many others like me who simply don't care to post anymore.
On the flipside, most users who have positive things to say about modern aren't going to bother posting in these discussions when it's not around B/R list time. People come to this thread to argue, not to hold hands and sing. Again, not saying their gripes are without merit, just that sometimes the atmosphere in this thread does get kinda negative.
Legendary Creature - Human
Indestructible
Whenever another legendary creature you control dies, flip Achilles.
3/3
Begin the tale of godlike Achilles - a warrior with no peer
Menin
Legendary Enchantment Creature - God
Indestructible
Whenever Menin attacks, destroy target creature.
Sacrifice the creature you control with the greatest power, flip Menin. Any player may activate this ability.
Sing, Goddess, Achilles' rage, Black and murderous
5/1
IIW: Guild cards that subvert their general stereotype (EX: Dimir Robin Hood, Boros Coward)
I'm very interested in the base idea of ditching the value for more aggro, but why not + 1 Mimic -1 Throne? Mimic seems pretty vital here to blitz out things fast if that's the plan (Maybe his idea is just to drop everything that get 1 for 1'd?). A lot of decks nowadays are good at removing overseer, and also weaker to faster board states, so I'm on board with at least testing it.
OK so it's honestly really hard, but there are a couple ways to actually kill them:
1. Skip around bridge with an Inkmoth Nexus, a Walking Ballista, or even a Spellskite postboard. [Doesn't work if they spyglass ravager]
2. Use Animation Module to proliferate their chalices to 3/4 if possible.
3. Get a lucky Nature's Claim that lets you get through.
4. Side out cards that are slow// cards that don't get around their nonsense. So - Steel Overseer, - Welding Jar, -throne of geth
Side note: What do we think of decks cutting Evolutionary Leap for 4th Welding Jar?
Enchantment
When Utopian Diplomacy enters the battlefield, gain control of target creature as long as Utopian Diplomacy remains in play.
Thirty gold just to talk.
Medicine for my wife to lay down my sword.
A house for my family to pick it back up.
IIW: Competitive linchpin card for an underused tribe.
U
Instant
Target creature is unblockable this turn
Shinderu
BB
Instant
Aftermath - If an opponent was dealt damage this turn, that player sacrifices target creature.
NANI?!
iiw: make a lynchpin card for an unused tribe.
It's certainly a cool idea (I may steal it for casual), but unfortunately, I don't think you'll find much success with this in modern. There are two principle problems here:
1. The cards in the deck are very bad without high alert
2. You don't have a good way to either stall out, or find high alert quickly
3. Your main game plan isn't even necessarily stronger on a card for card basis when it is working. Spirits or Rock or Humans all present bigger creatures than 4/4's, which your wizards require high alert to morph in to.
Zur is too slow at 4 mana, and that's assuming he actually gets to attack. High alert won't be present all the time, and even when it is, it'll only start really threatening people on turn 5 or so (after you've dropped more wizards on turn 4).
Compare this to popular budget decks like 8-whack or No-Fetches storm, and you see a clear plan that presents game ending threats by turn 4 or 5.
Actual Ideas
If you want to stick with the High Alert theme, I'd strongly consider ditching the wizards theme for a set of cards which is strong by itself. If not, at least consider maybe going bant for Assault formation as well for a more stable game plan, and leaving Zur out of it. For example, these cards have high toughness but are nevertheless useful on their own to varying degrees:
By adding Assault Formation, you could build a bant list with these could be quite nice.
You can also consider classical deck choices which may be strong enough to slot in like:
Collected Company
Scavenging Ooze
Tarmogoyf
etc.
You can adjust the deck by adding more sticher's suppliers and maybe a sac outlet like viscera seer to increase black density. It seems pretty dooable?
I reiterate, I want to see containment priest and leovold, emissary of trest.
Also, dredge would 1000% play ichorid. The list would just look a bit different. (Think closer to bridgevine, but now it can also grind you out and is faster)
Anyway, I'm probably a bit biased because I am very fond of Vengevine, but I'd actually prefer targeted bans at each of the "problem" decks even though it's "messier". For example, I'd very much prefer bans on Phoenix, Creeping Chill to bans on manamorphose or faithless looting. I don't like causing huge amounts of splash damage, and without the payoffs, the meta seems like it would shift back to the humans one, which most people were fine with.
Also, i don't think Hardened Scales gets dominant in the new meta. The matchup against control is so miserable that it might actually be worse.
It doesn't seem immediately obvious to me why UR phoenix has forced all the more interactive decks out of the metagame. If anything, the UW matchup looks pretty good for UW? I've only played like 8 total games in that matchup recently though.
Yeah, and overseer is honestly nearly as fast as mimic in many cases, especially if there is no HS resolved. In games where you are rushing down, it's just way better in general.
The reason that Llanowar Reborn is better than Ruins of Oran-Rief is threefold:
1. Green - this is actually really important. We're cutting so much green for Darksteels and Inkmoths that those last few land slots are relatively precious.
2. Mana Efficient - You don't have to pay for the graft counter, which is actually kind of huge because of how Modern be right now (Top Deck Phoenix, 2nd Deck Dredge). Oran Rief is something that isn't likely to contribute more than llanowar did to the board state by turn 4-5, which is honestly around when games are usually decided.
EX: turn 3 llanowar -> grafted ballista (4/4) -> turn 4 casting 2, 2drops -> turn 5 casting something
turn 3 ruins -> non-grafted ballista (2/2) -> turn 4 casting 2, 2 drops -> turn 5 using oran rief for the first time
3. Redundancy - The time when Oran Rief is really good is when you're in top deck mode. However, the problem here is that the deck does either remarkably well in equivalent topdeck wars with decks like GB or even Grixis now, and remarkably terribly in topdeck wars against decks like UW or Prison. So it ends up being redundant or not useful where it's supposed to be great.
Sub-question, if it's not flipped, and I flicker it, does it have 4 counters.
The thing about this deck is that it's actually super mana inefficient a lot of the time. Most of the stuff you want to play is 2 drops, and a lot of the time you end up leaving one land untapped anyway. So playing llanowar + ballista on turn 3 might not be so bad. Overall I think that it seems like a reasonable addition to the deck.
Honestly I think Gavony is pretty shady, we already cut a lot of forests as it is, access to white is questionable, and we don't exactly run a lot of mana. I guess when it works it's nice, but the other fringe colorless options seem more relevant (Phyrexia's Core, More Blinkmoths)
Overall the deck is doing better now than it has been before chiefly because:
1. GDS cut their K-commands to the side, and even then they cut down on the side K-commands
2. KCI disappeared and took a lot of stonies with it
3. UW is getting beat down by the top decks atm.
I'd say it's definitely a top 8 deck, but probably not top4
Normal counterspell I don't even see having a major effect on the format. Maybe UW goes up to like 5% or something.
Maybe a reprint on common "fair police" creatures in legacy could help? I'd like to see what Containment Priest or Leovold, Emissary of Trest might do for the meta. Both seem fairly innocuous to be honest, just strengthening creature decks' ability to fight phoenix/dredge/company and cantrip/faithless looting/manamorphose chains respectively.
Also personally Sultai is my favorite wedge and BW is my favorite guild, so maybe i'll get new pet decks.
However, I do concede that it does seem like linear strategy tends to win in modern more than anything else. It's inarguable that the other eternal format, Legacy, is more interactive, given the dominance that blue enjoys there. Some people like that more, and that's fine.
On the flipside, most users who have positive things to say about modern aren't going to bother posting in these discussions when it's not around B/R list time. People come to this thread to argue, not to hold hands and sing. Again, not saying their gripes are without merit, just that sometimes the atmosphere in this thread does get kinda negative.