How is it good for Wizards to spend money supporting a format that doesn't require their product? Hell, they intentionally killed a format (Extended) and that was probably the best move they ever made for the tournament scene, making room for Modern.
I in know way have said that proxies, or playtest cards as they put them, are the answer, but why wouldn't they put more product out that people are willing to spend money on to buy? That sounds like a win win when you make a vast majority of your customers happy and make money on it at the same time giving them what they want. Even SCG wants the List gone and they would be #1 in losing money on everything they have, because selling a $50 card is a hell of a lot easier than a $200 one and they would make money with better attendance in Legacy and Vintage tournaments.
It would require them to spend money supporting a format that is dying anyways, and does not require things that they make money on. How is that a good business model?
But it would make them money, and by not doing it is only stopping a line of cash flow they could be getting. They choose not to make any money on those formats right now when they easily could.
This isn't about the reserved list. But whyw ould anyone buy the reprints if they could play a proxy? The same people already feel entitled to play the cards without paying for them.
Are you saying that if the cards were cheaper people still wouldn't buy them and instead keep making proxies? No one is asking for fully proxy decks.
So the prices are going down anyways? Then go buy cards I guess.
But then the format(s) wouldn't be there, which is a good chunk as to why they would like them, ultimately making them less "needed" and less wanted. If the format they wanted to use them in is gone what's the point of "needing" them. That just sounds disappointing.
Yeah, Black lotus should be in every pack.
*Sigh* Yeah, 'cause that's what I said.
Legacy and Vintage have always been fringe formats.
So was Commander, but look at it now, it is the product that probably has the most anticipation every year at this point. It got support and it is incredibly popular now, so wouldn't that same thing happen with Legacy and Vintage? Even 2HG is fringe and we have a new set coming out that is having a prerelease made with it in mind specifically and a mechanic for it,
Because they aren't very popular as is.
Because they choose not to support the formats and coupled with the cost is what makes them this way, but support could change that and help them thrive then they wouldn't be so fringe or unpopular.
A promise is a promise. I for one would rather buy products from a trustworthy company than blame that company for my financial problems.
Who said I blamed Wizards for my financial problems? In fact, even if the prices of all reserved list cards were cut in half I still couldn't afford them, but this isn't about my money issues, it is about wanting to see the game do better and Wizards do better. I would much rather have thousands more people play in these formats than me get into them, because this is a game I love and I want to see it succeed and last as long as possible. I believe that helping these two formats will strengthen the game as a whole, which is the only reason for having this discussion.
How is it good for Wizards to spend money supporting a format that doesn't require their product? Hell, they intentionally killed a format (Extended) and that was probably the best move they ever made for the tournament scene, making room for Modern.
Seriously? How is it not good for them? They would make gangbusters if they put out practically anything on the reserved list that sees any use in any format.You can't tell me they wouldn't make an enormous amount of money from reprinting these cards. But then again this is Wizards we are talking about where even the cards that are played in Legacy and Vintage that are NOT on the reserved list don't even see reprint....oh wait no they reprint Force of Will and Wasteland, but only in the smallest amounts possible and as promos, and in Wastelands case 3 times in a row.
For some reason you choose to want to see a part of the game die and you have yet to show why these parts should die, and then the price of those cards are going down anyways, which is what reprinting would do as well, but I guess it is better to watch something die than thrive. Extended died off because they replaced the format with something better, especially after they made Extended worse by just making it Standard+, but Legacy and Vintage won't be replaced with anything except for laughter that WoTC decided to not save it because of some 20 year old semi-promise because of all those guys that bought a Black Lotus for $20 and didn't want to see it drop to $10.
I sometimes think about Extended, the format that Modern took out back and shot like a dog, and wondered what decks would probably be around today. Now I am talking more about the 7 year Extended, and not the 4 year version it became later in life, although that would be interesting to talk about still. I never got to play the format so I think it would be pretty interesting to look at what could be right now.
If I'm correct, and I sure hope I am else this looks incredibly stupid. 7 year Extended looks like this BFZ, Tarkir, Theros, RTR, Innistrad, SoM, and Zendikar, while also including Origins, M15, 14, 13, 12, and 11 with core set. 4 year would end at RTR and.
So what are your thoughts on this? What would you build, is there a top tier deck you could think of right now? Let's say that the previous banlist and all cards that would be part of the format right now still stand, so Stoneforge Mystic, Mental Misstep, and Jace 2.0 would be banned. Is Cawblade running rampant with different cards? Does Valakut still blow its top over the competition? Does Mono Black Devotion get crazier with Geralf's Messanger? Does flip Jace no longer have it's crazy presence right now?
What do you think Extended would look like right now?
I love the attitude of the pro proxy people. "I know what is good for you, Wizards, so let me use things that aren't your products in the tournaments that you spend money to support." It is ridiculous. How often can you pull things like that in other avenues of life. "Hey, Boss, I know we're supposed to be in at 9AM, but I don't get my best work done until 11AM, so in your best interest, I am not going to show up until 11. Also, still pay me." "Hey, I know you said not in a million years, but I think you would really enjoy a date with me, so huff this chloroform and get in my trunk." or even "Hey, I know you didn't ask for help, but I really think your Baghdad could use more bomb craters, so prepare to be America'd."
You may think you know what is best for their game, but they support the tournaments. Why you think you know better than them, but also think that $2000 is a lot of money baffles me. If your life is in a direction where $2000 is too much money, but you think you have time for an intensive hobby, your judgment is probably a bit skewed.
First that analogy you have up there is just awful. Secondly, are you saying you have enough money that $2000 means so little to you that you can just go out and buy a Vintage/Legacy deck right now with no issue at all? Because if you can than this discussion isn't for you and even so why would you want to pay $2000 rather than wanting it cheaper? Thirdly, even with all of your entitled rhetoric and crazy analogies and comparisons you still haven't shown why it is a good thing that Wizards is just letting two formats die out when they could do something for it that would be better for the game as a whole. Why is wanting to see the game do better such a problem for you?
Honestly if we were going to get a new Modern Event Deck we probably would have gotten in for MM2, or gotten one a year at least. If we do get one I am sure they would go with something really easy, like Merfolk or Affinity. Something that you get about 70% of so that way you have to go out and buy Modern Masters to get the rest of. I would personally like Merfolk or RDW, or even the new Eldrazi deck would be fun. Oh and it shouldn't cost $70 to buy, the last one could easily have been $50 MSRP.
Chances of us getting a new one are probably at their highest when a new Modern Masters comes out. While they want to support Modern as a format we all know that they are terrible at supporting anything that isn't Limited, Standard, or Commander and even the final format on that list could be a tad better.
I don't agree alot with jturphy in general but he's right on eternal formats.
They don't really support Modern, Legacy or Vintage. The fact that MM comes once in 2 years says it all.
You can literally put it in their mouths. "We support Modern once every 2 years."
But that statement only applies because there's no such thing as the reserved list for Modern, and they're "unfortunately obligated" to reprint them. If they had their way Standard, Block, and Limited will be the flagbearers of competitive Magic.
Isn't Block more or less gone at this point? I don't remember seeing much about it for some time.
I am reading through as I am bored. I could not find the replay button to reply to #157 by Hipster Mike.
But I do not think it is that hard to release more cards to support Vintage and Legacy. WOTC should just make those cards prizes.
Standard tournaments gets modern prizes, modern gets legacy, legacy gets vintage. Those that do not play a particular format can sell the cards. I personally think legacy should be an "earned" format anyways.
What is your reasoning on Legacy being an "earned" format?
Ultimately WoTC has only a few options. Either get rid of the reserved list and finally get rid of the worst decision they have ever made, ban all the cards on the reserved list for non-Commander constructed formats, or just straight kill Legacy and Vintage by just coming out and saying it finally, like they did Extended, which would still drop the prices of all of those cards because no one wants them for much of anything. No matter what something needs to be done, damn near anything would be better than the current situation at this point.
It is so strange to me that they will let these formats die off and let part of that money that people would pay to get just fly away because of some 20 year old semi-promise for people who didn't want to see their $20 cards lose value back then. They would easily make back any money they would lose from a suit, if they lost, from just selling Alpha duals in anything. They could reprint the entirety of the Homelands set and put them in and they would still make out like bandits.
If Wizards truly wants to just kill a couple formats they could come out and say it already, although I'm not quite sure who exactly would narc (my choice of words) on the store having a proxy tournament, but you know there is someone out there that would either out of joy or being a douche canoe.
I find it a little odd they would make new scions, but they do look interesting, although I do like my Eldrazi shrimp token. After that the new zombie token is great because we don't have to see the one they printed like 10 times, and the 3/1 elemental is definitely better than the others. I'm surprised the 0/1 plant token doesn't have new art though.
Considering how bad Cohort and Support are, I imagine the returning mechanics will be: Banding, Legendary Plainswalk, Phasing, Splice onto Arcane and Rampage.
To be fair Splice onto Arcane would have been fine, if it didn't have "onto Arcane" tacked onto it and was just Splice with "onto <non-permanent spell>". The Arcane part of it is what makes it unplayable.
Well, Lou, if you're making an Ally deck, you're going to naturally include as many allies as possible to get the most from the Rally triggers and from cards such as March from the Tomb, most tribal decks use as many creatures from the tribe as possible.
Difference being Cohort isn't even good with allies, having to tap two creatures of the same type and barely getting anything out of it is not a great mechanic.
I think the card I like the most is Pulse of Murasa. That is a lot of stuff you can do with a common, between EDH politics, helping teammate in 2HG, and being a way to get your 4th land drop and 6 life. After that there isn't much to write home about, some pretty cool art, but not much else.
There is a *lot* of good Countermagic here!
Anyone hoping for a Snapcaster Mage reprint in SOI is in for disappointment, methinks.
Best we can hope for is it being reprinted at rare in MM3.
Geez, for the price it is now, people should just pick up a Modern Event Deck.
Funny thing is, at this moment you can't find a copy for less than $30 with combined shipping. Guess it is a good thing I have an unopened Modern Event Deck.
I think the card I like the most is Pulse of Murasa. That is a lot of stuff you can do with a common, between EDH politics, helping teammate in 2HG, and being a way to get your 4th land drop and 6 life. After that there isn't much to write home about, some pretty cool art, but not much else.
I understand that it needed to be bad so people who wanted to play colorless in draft could do it, but can you tell me why it isn't at least 0/2? Right now it's absolutely useless as a creature. Not even chump block worthy with all the scions in this set.
Only reason I can figure why it isn't an 0/2 is because it would block Scion tokens all day, or some such other nonsense like that. This definitely should have been a 1/1.
I in know way have said that proxies, or playtest cards as they put them, are the answer, but why wouldn't they put more product out that people are willing to spend money on to buy? That sounds like a win win when you make a vast majority of your customers happy and make money on it at the same time giving them what they want. Even SCG wants the List gone and they would be #1 in losing money on everything they have, because selling a $50 card is a hell of a lot easier than a $200 one and they would make money with better attendance in Legacy and Vintage tournaments.
But it would make them money, and by not doing it is only stopping a line of cash flow they could be getting. They choose not to make any money on those formats right now when they easily could.
Are you saying that if the cards were cheaper people still wouldn't buy them and instead keep making proxies? No one is asking for fully proxy decks.
But then the format(s) wouldn't be there, which is a good chunk as to why they would like them, ultimately making them less "needed" and less wanted. If the format they wanted to use them in is gone what's the point of "needing" them. That just sounds disappointing.
*Sigh* Yeah, 'cause that's what I said.
So was Commander, but look at it now, it is the product that probably has the most anticipation every year at this point. It got support and it is incredibly popular now, so wouldn't that same thing happen with Legacy and Vintage? Even 2HG is fringe and we have a new set coming out that is having a prerelease made with it in mind specifically and a mechanic for it,
Because they choose not to support the formats and coupled with the cost is what makes them this way, but support could change that and help them thrive then they wouldn't be so fringe or unpopular.
Who said I blamed Wizards for my financial problems? In fact, even if the prices of all reserved list cards were cut in half I still couldn't afford them, but this isn't about my money issues, it is about wanting to see the game do better and Wizards do better. I would much rather have thousands more people play in these formats than me get into them, because this is a game I love and I want to see it succeed and last as long as possible. I believe that helping these two formats will strengthen the game as a whole, which is the only reason for having this discussion.
Rather than the turns for non combo decks which can be the same frequently?
Seriously? How is it not good for them? They would make gangbusters if they put out practically anything on the reserved list that sees any use in any format.You can't tell me they wouldn't make an enormous amount of money from reprinting these cards. But then again this is Wizards we are talking about where even the cards that are played in Legacy and Vintage that are NOT on the reserved list don't even see reprint....oh wait no they reprint Force of Will and Wasteland, but only in the smallest amounts possible and as promos, and in Wastelands case 3 times in a row.
For some reason you choose to want to see a part of the game die and you have yet to show why these parts should die, and then the price of those cards are going down anyways, which is what reprinting would do as well, but I guess it is better to watch something die than thrive. Extended died off because they replaced the format with something better, especially after they made Extended worse by just making it Standard+, but Legacy and Vintage won't be replaced with anything except for laughter that WoTC decided to not save it because of some 20 year old semi-promise because of all those guys that bought a Black Lotus for $20 and didn't want to see it drop to $10.
If I'm correct, and I sure hope I am else this looks incredibly stupid. 7 year Extended looks like this BFZ, Tarkir, Theros, RTR, Innistrad, SoM, and Zendikar, while also including Origins, M15, 14, 13, 12, and 11 with core set. 4 year would end at RTR and.
So what are your thoughts on this? What would you build, is there a top tier deck you could think of right now? Let's say that the previous banlist and all cards that would be part of the format right now still stand, so Stoneforge Mystic, Mental Misstep, and Jace 2.0 would be banned. Is Cawblade running rampant with different cards? Does Valakut still blow its top over the competition? Does Mono Black Devotion get crazier with Geralf's Messanger? Does flip Jace no longer have it's crazy presence right now?
What do you think Extended would look like right now?
First that analogy you have up there is just awful. Secondly, are you saying you have enough money that $2000 means so little to you that you can just go out and buy a Vintage/Legacy deck right now with no issue at all? Because if you can than this discussion isn't for you and even so why would you want to pay $2000 rather than wanting it cheaper? Thirdly, even with all of your entitled rhetoric and crazy analogies and comparisons you still haven't shown why it is a good thing that Wizards is just letting two formats die out when they could do something for it that would be better for the game as a whole. Why is wanting to see the game do better such a problem for you?
Chances of us getting a new one are probably at their highest when a new Modern Masters comes out. While they want to support Modern as a format we all know that they are terrible at supporting anything that isn't Limited, Standard, or Commander and even the final format on that list could be a tad better.
Isn't Block more or less gone at this point? I don't remember seeing much about it for some time.
What is your reasoning on Legacy being an "earned" format?
Ultimately WoTC has only a few options. Either get rid of the reserved list and finally get rid of the worst decision they have ever made, ban all the cards on the reserved list for non-Commander constructed formats, or just straight kill Legacy and Vintage by just coming out and saying it finally, like they did Extended, which would still drop the prices of all of those cards because no one wants them for much of anything. No matter what something needs to be done, damn near anything would be better than the current situation at this point.
It is so strange to me that they will let these formats die off and let part of that money that people would pay to get just fly away because of some 20 year old semi-promise for people who didn't want to see their $20 cards lose value back then. They would easily make back any money they would lose from a suit, if they lost, from just selling Alpha duals in anything. They could reprint the entirety of the Homelands set and put them in and they would still make out like bandits.
To be fair Splice onto Arcane would have been fine, if it didn't have "onto Arcane" tacked onto it and was just Splice with "onto <non-permanent spell>". The Arcane part of it is what makes it unplayable.
Difference being Cohort isn't even good with allies, having to tap two creatures of the same type and barely getting anything out of it is not a great mechanic.
Funny thing is, at this moment you can't find a copy for less than $30 with combined shipping. Guess it is a good thing I have an unopened Modern Event Deck.
Nothing like $20 uncommons.
Best we can hope for is it being reprinted at rare in MM3.
Only reason I can figure why it isn't an 0/2 is because it would block Scion tokens all day, or some such other nonsense like that. This definitely should have been a 1/1.