But something is ticking me, can't you create a shortcut in MTGO? So you just have to do it once and repeat? How do the others infinite type combo decks work then?
Unfortunately, there is not such an option, to give you an example of how much of a problem this is, most people used to play more Pestermite than Deceiver Exarch on MODO when playing Splinter Twin as it would consume half of the time to combo, IRL on the other hand prioritized Deceiver Exarch as you can shortcut so it takes the same time while passing the Lightning Bolt test. It's nonsense that you have to weaken your combo in order to have enough time to do it and combos like this one are mostly unplayable online because of this, it would take too much time to go off so if the opponent doesn't concede you might lose a game you already had won.
I can't tell for sure as it isn't my decklist but I imagine he is trying to be more proactive on early turns (more discard + Spreading Seas), he also plays Tasigur, the Golden Fang so maybe he prefers to clear the way with discard spells and then drop a menacing permanent such as Tasigur or a Liliana. I will ask him next time I see him
In case anyone is interested, one of the players who usually comes to play the monthly Modern Open at my LGS has brought UB Control a couple of times and he did a great job finishing in 3rd position the second time, every game I watched it was amazing and the deck felt very good, maybe you want to check it out:
The Grim Lavamancer instead of Tasigur, the Godlen Fang in the mainboard has helped me a lot to fight creature decks G1, Squee, Goblin Nabob has been good almost every game I drew it, not insane as it only nets 1 card/turn at max but the card advantage it provides is very valuable against any midrange or control deck, I didn't have any situation yet where I drew it and wished it was my 3rd Blood Crypt. I think the deck runs perfectly fine with 17 lands and after all this games I still believe so.
Regarding your deck, I like the 1 of Become Immense as it forces them to play around it once they've seen it but I think maybe you could move 1 Grim Lavamancer to the sideboard and make room for the second Hooting Mandrills.
I love Noose Constrictor and is a creature for Vengevine so I would definitely play those instead of Burning Inquiry, if you take that route it might make sense to increase the Number of Flamewake Phoenix as you would have more cards to trigger it, to make some room you might want to move Lightning Bolt to the sideboard as Grim Lavamancer already fills the role of throwing damage in small chunks wherever you need.
During my testing on MODO I got excellent results with a 80% winrate after 5 competitive leagues so I sleeved it up for GP Barcelona instead of my usual RG HollowVine (which is more fun but less consistent), unfortunately the GP didn't go that well, I guess I will have to work my way for some byes next time. I finished 5-3 and registered to the Sunday PTQ where I went 4-2 after starting 4-0, on round 5 we got a deckcheck that gave my opponent a game loss (I thought I was going to win after that happened but then discovered that my opponent played Martyr Proc, which feels like an impossible to win matchup and he crushed me hard with lifegain + Path to Exile into T4 Wrath of God both games.
Since there are many results here (39), I will attach screenshots of the excel where I record my results (there are some comments in there anyway), feel free to ask about anything:
Conclusions: I feel like go-wide decks like Merfolks or Elves (even Slivers) are very difficult and similar to Humans, also that Martyr Proc seemed just unbeatable, if this deck starts getting popular we could theorize about bringing some Rain of Gore in our sideboards but hopefully such a thing won't be necessary. Overall, the deck felt good, I missed the fun Vengevine openers but the deck felt very strong.
Overall winrate is 29/39 (74%), if you remove the game I didn't even get to play from MODO it's 28/38 (73%), still very good
I agree that the decklist doesn't seem quite refined, I would like it to have the 4th Street Wraith and I think Memnite is quite useless as its only use is to trigger a Vengevine, I'd rather play Flameblade Adept instead as it has a lot of synergy with everything else.
I love Lotleth Troll but I feel like Noose Constrictor is better here since you can discard any card to it so I would probably change from 4-2 to 2-4 or something like that. Noose also allows some insane openers where you play it, discard 3 cards, including at least 1 Vengevine and then cast Hollow One, it can also be quite deadly alongside Flameblade Adept as its ability pumps both of them and it can pump itself to bring back those Flamewake Phoenix, I feel like it's the most synergistic card.
Prized Amalgam is quite bad IMO, same goes for Scourge Devil, they are cute cards but unless you are doing degenerate things like Dredge, they are not that impressive.
From the cards you mentioned:
I like Ghor-Clan Rampager a lot as a 1x since it has synergy while adding some reach to finish those games where the board is clogged or where you just need some trample damage to kill them. Gurmag Angler is very good but as you mentioned, it might be difficult to fit many since they exile cards from graveyard, if you play Goblin Lore I think it becomes much more liable. Collective Brutality is a very versatile cards so you could make some room for a couple copies.
I think Goblin Lore should have a place in here, you don't really care that much about what you discard and it's the best Hollow One enabler, so I would definitely play that, and I think it's way better than Cathartic Reunion since drawing before discarding helps a lot when it comes to graveyard recursion.
If you are playng delve creatures such as Gurmag Angler, I think you should play more fetchlands and less fastlands, that extra card in graveyard could make the difference.
The deck is quite light on black mana requirements that you have to cast(Could count Bloodghast but you really want to discard them), the only black card in the maindeck you want to cast is Lotleth Troll, so if you prioritize Noose Constrictor as I do, you might want to give up on black completely and be pure RG. IMO, the real reason to play black should be Gurmag Angler, not Prized Amalgam, Bloodghast nor Lotleth Troll
A card I love playing in this style of deck and don't see many people do is Squee, Goblin Nabob, it makes all discard effects better(it would actually make Lotleth Troll better) and can be a recurring chumpblock against large creature such as Tarmogoyf or Death Shadow
Keeping Jund colors, I would build something like this in the maindeck:
I've played with Noose Constrictor which seems great on paper but it's not that great in reality: what usually happens is that you discard your big guys with the snake to get them back from their Living End and then they remove those with Faerie Macabre. The best way to deal with it is exiling their whole graveyard, we have 4 options for this: Tormod's Crypt Nihil Spellbomb Ravenous Trap Leyline of the Void
I've played with all of those and I believe Leyline is the way to go although Tormod is quite good as well since it doesn't cost you a single mana, Ravenous is a card I love but is the more niche of them all so not really that great unless you expect a lot of storm (they can't do anything about it while the can bounce your permanents).
It's more a preference thing but I would say Tormod and Leyline are the best options
It isn't and it actually stops the combo: the thopters are blue, so they get pumped by Architect and Sword is unable to come back as it doesn't see any 1/1 entering the battlefield
How crazy would it be to play Street Wraith to draw on our opponent's turn without spending mana? It seems counterintuitive but it would allow going T2 Serum Visions and setup Terminus for when our opponent attacks on their T3, I guess only lists playing Timely Reinforcements could afford the life loss.
Hi, I will playing an RPTQ next weekend with 2 friends and although we have pretty much clear what we are going to play, we are wondering that although Red decks with Goblin Chainwhirler are defining the format, only 1 player is allowed to play them in this tournament so maybe some decks that get wrecked by it might be not so bad here. Do you know any deck like this that could be dangerous? WB knights and BG Saprolings come to mind but I am probably missing some more strategies, maybe Combat Celebrant + God-Pharaoh's Gift combo decks might be strong here.
We are probably going to stick with our choices but it would be good to know what decks we should expect besides current 1v1 metagame
That being said; a scry is worth probably 90% of a draw in this deck. Serum Visions is basically U for "draw ~2.8 cards". You're proposing playing a card that draws 3 for UU. How awkward is it when you ideas into Tezz and don't have the mana ( or colored mana ) to cast it? I just don't see why I'd pay an extra blue for another .2 cards and have the awkward discard 3 at EOT.
I think you overestimate the Scry effect, I agree that Serum Visions is a more desirable effect than Ideas Unbound because of card selection and the fact that you don't get card disadvantage. You could say it's almost as a Draw 3 when you scry both on the bottom but when you keep one on top that you were already going to draw you don't get that much value IMO (yeah, I know that if you want it on top you are doing well but it's still not a draw)
Hi, I've always liked the Thopter Foundry combo but couldn't find the right home for it, after reading some posts here, I think Tezzerator is the right place to go, this is the list I am playing now:
As you can see, I am giving up on Mox Opal and many other cheap artifacts and try to focus on ramping into the 4-mana planeswalkers, I've found Karn, Scion of Urza to be a great tool for this deck, it nets you cards in the long games and creates huge creatures whenever you need a clock or defence against aggro decks.
I might try the Mox Opal version but it doesn't look that much better so it's not very appealing for me as it forces you to play cards like Mishra's Bauble. What do you think of Karn? Yesterday I was playing on MODO and he helped me push fast against a Storm deck, forced him to chumpblock with Baral and he couldn't combo next turn but I guess it's not that likely that you can force them to chump. Let me know what you think
Barrage of Boulders is quite interesting against any deck that might block your attacks with efficient blockers such as Gurmag Angler or by just filling the board of creatures (Humans or Elves). I have played 1 copy in my sideboard for quite some time and it has given me some wins in situations where any other card in my deck wouldn't
In Miracles he is a must-have and you should probably play 4 of them although some people prefer to play 3 copies.
Non-miracles lists seem to play less copies since it won't help them set up a Miracle spell to stabilize against aggresive decks like Humans or Hollow One, but you will still like to have 1 or 2 copies against interactive decks.
Unfortunately, there is not such an option, to give you an example of how much of a problem this is, most people used to play more Pestermite than Deceiver Exarch on MODO when playing Splinter Twin as it would consume half of the time to combo, IRL on the other hand prioritized Deceiver Exarch as you can shortcut so it takes the same time while passing the Lightning Bolt test. It's nonsense that you have to weaken your combo in order to have enough time to do it and combos like this one are mostly unplayable online because of this, it would take too much time to go off so if the opponent doesn't concede you might lose a game you already had won.
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Creatures (6)
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Snapcaster Mage
Other Spells (25)
1 Go for the Throat
2 Cryptic Command
2 Damnation
2 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thought Scour
4 Fatal Push
4 Serum Visions
4 Spreading Seas
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Swamp
3 Watery Grave
3 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Field of Ruin
3 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Darkslick Shores
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Murderous Cut
1 Logic Knot
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Dispel
1 Collective Brutality
1 Go for the Throat
1 Damnation
Regarding your deck, I like the 1 of Become Immense as it forces them to play around it once they've seen it but I think maybe you could move 1 Grim Lavamancer to the sideboard and make room for the second Hooting Mandrills.
I love Noose Constrictor and is a creature for Vengevine so I would definitely play those instead of Burning Inquiry, if you take that route it might make sense to increase the Number of Flamewake Phoenix as you would have more cards to trigger it, to make some room you might want to move Lightning Bolt to the sideboard as Grim Lavamancer already fills the role of throwing damage in small chunks wherever you need.
1 Grim Lavamancer
4 Flameblade Adept
4 Bloodghast
4 Flamewake Phoenix
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Hollow One
4 Street Wraith
3 Gurmag Angler
Spells (18)
4 Faithless Looting
4 Burning Inquiry
4 Goblin Lore
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Collective Brutality
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Thoughtseize
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Fatal Push
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Ancient Grudge
4 Leyline of the Void
As you can see, the only changes I made are:
Maindeck: -1 Blood Crypt -1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang +1 Squee, Goblin Nabob + 1 Grim Lavamancer
Sideboard: -1 Grim Lavamancer +1 Leyline of the Void
During my testing on MODO I got excellent results with a 80% winrate after 5 competitive leagues so I sleeved it up for GP Barcelona instead of my usual RG HollowVine (which is more fun but less consistent), unfortunately the GP didn't go that well, I guess I will have to work my way for some byes next time. I finished 5-3 and registered to the Sunday PTQ where I went 4-2 after starting 4-0, on round 5 we got a deckcheck that gave my opponent a game loss (I thought I was going to win after that happened but then discovered that my opponent played Martyr Proc, which feels like an impossible to win matchup and he crushed me hard with lifegain + Path to Exile into T4 Wrath of God both games.
Since there are many results here (39), I will attach screenshots of the excel where I record my results (there are some comments in there anyway), feel free to ask about anything:
Conclusions: I feel like go-wide decks like Merfolks or Elves (even Slivers) are very difficult and similar to Humans, also that Martyr Proc seemed just unbeatable, if this deck starts getting popular we could theorize about bringing some Rain of Gore in our sideboards but hopefully such a thing won't be necessary. Overall, the deck felt good, I missed the fun Vengevine openers but the deck felt very strong.
Overall winrate is 29/39 (74%), if you remove the game I didn't even get to play from MODO it's 28/38 (73%), still very good
Let me know what do you think.
I love Lotleth Troll but I feel like Noose Constrictor is better here since you can discard any card to it so I would probably change from 4-2 to 2-4 or something like that. Noose also allows some insane openers where you play it, discard 3 cards, including at least 1 Vengevine and then cast Hollow One, it can also be quite deadly alongside Flameblade Adept as its ability pumps both of them and it can pump itself to bring back those Flamewake Phoenix, I feel like it's the most synergistic card.
Prized Amalgam is quite bad IMO, same goes for Scourge Devil, they are cute cards but unless you are doing degenerate things like Dredge, they are not that impressive.
From the cards you mentioned:
I like Ghor-Clan Rampager a lot as a 1x since it has synergy while adding some reach to finish those games where the board is clogged or where you just need some trample damage to kill them.
Gurmag Angler is very good but as you mentioned, it might be difficult to fit many since they exile cards from graveyard, if you play Goblin Lore I think it becomes much more liable.
Collective Brutality is a very versatile cards so you could make some room for a couple copies.
I think Goblin Lore should have a place in here, you don't really care that much about what you discard and it's the best Hollow One enabler, so I would definitely play that, and I think it's way better than Cathartic Reunion since drawing before discarding helps a lot when it comes to graveyard recursion.
Usually you have to choose between Bloodghast and Vengevine, I like that this list tries to go for both but I feel like it left out some good cards just to help trigger Vengevine and Prized Amalgam, Flameblade Adept and Goblin Lore are too good to not play them.
If you are playng delve creatures such as Gurmag Angler, I think you should play more fetchlands and less fastlands, that extra card in graveyard could make the difference.
The deck is quite light on black mana requirements that you have to cast(Could count Bloodghast but you really want to discard them), the only black card in the maindeck you want to cast is Lotleth Troll, so if you prioritize Noose Constrictor as I do, you might want to give up on black completely and be pure RG. IMO, the real reason to play black should be Gurmag Angler, not Prized Amalgam, Bloodghast nor Lotleth Troll
A card I love playing in this style of deck and don't see many people do is Squee, Goblin Nabob, it makes all discard effects better(it would actually make Lotleth Troll better) and can be a recurring chumpblock against large creature such as Tarmogoyf or Death Shadow
Keeping Jund colors, I would build something like this in the maindeck:
4 Bloodghast
4 Vengevine
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Hollow One
4 Noose Constrictor
2 Lotleth Troll
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Street Wraith
4 Flamewake Phoenix
2 Gurmag Angler
4 Faithless Looting
4 Goblin Lore
2 Collective Brutality
Lands (17)
1 Forest
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Mountain
1 Blood Crypt
2 Stomping Ground
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
Tormod's Crypt
Nihil Spellbomb
Ravenous Trap
Leyline of the Void
I've played with all of those and I believe Leyline is the way to go although Tormod is quite good as well since it doesn't cost you a single mana, Ravenous is a card I love but is the more niche of them all so not really that great unless you expect a lot of storm (they can't do anything about it while the can bounce your permanents).
It's more a preference thing but I would say Tormod and Leyline are the best options
We are probably going to stick with our choices but it would be good to know what decks we should expect besides current 1v1 metagame
Thanks,
I think you overestimate the Scry effect, I agree that Serum Visions is a more desirable effect than Ideas Unbound because of card selection and the fact that you don't get card disadvantage. You could say it's almost as a Draw 3 when you scry both on the bottom but when you keep one on top that you were already going to draw you don't get that much value IMO (yeah, I know that if you want it on top you are doing well but it's still not a draw)
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Inventors' Fair
1 Academy Ruins
4 Polluted Delta
4 Darkslick Shores
1 Breeding Pool
3 Watery Grave
3 Island
1 Swamp
3 Field of Ruin
Spells
3 Thoughtseize
4 Serum Visions
1 Pithing Needle
3 Sword of the Meek
4 Thopter Foundry
4 Talisman of Dominance
2 Talisman of Progress
2 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Whir of Invention
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Karn, Scion of Urza
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2 Damnation
1 Welding Jar
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Damping Sphere
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Time Sieve
1 Spellskite
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Padeem, Consul of Innovation
As you can see, I am giving up on Mox Opal and many other cheap artifacts and try to focus on ramping into the 4-mana planeswalkers, I've found Karn, Scion of Urza to be a great tool for this deck, it nets you cards in the long games and creates huge creatures whenever you need a clock or defence against aggro decks.
I might try the Mox Opal version but it doesn't look that much better so it's not very appealing for me as it forces you to play cards like Mishra's Bauble. What do you think of Karn? Yesterday I was playing on MODO and he helped me push fast against a Storm deck, forced him to chumpblock with Baral and he couldn't combo next turn but I guess it's not that likely that you can force them to chump. Let me know what you think
Non-miracles lists seem to play less copies since it won't help them set up a Miracle spell to stabilize against aggresive decks like Humans or Hollow One, but you will still like to have 1 or 2 copies against interactive decks.
So, yes, if you buy it I think you would like to play it. Regarding the price tag, I have no idea if it's going to go up or down and I feel like this is not the right thread to discuss that but rather use the Official Modern Prices one: https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/554992-modern-prices-discussion