MTG Salvation

No Cost
Arcbound Ravager - Classic artifact
Atog - Classic
extruder - artifact
greater gargadon
KRARK-CLAN IRONWORKS - artifact itself, and godly
Piston Sledge - sorcery speed artifact
rusted slasher - artifact
sarcatog
Slobad,Goblin Tinkerer
Thermal Navigator - artifact

One Shot
Artillerize
forge armor
reprocess - sorcery
salvage titan
Shrapnel Blast

Taps
Barrage Ogre
Etherium Astrolabe
Grinding station - artifact
Phyrexia's Core - simply cuz lands rock
Priest of Yawgmoth
sage of lat-nam
Throne of Geth - artifact

Under the lands, Chisei, Heart of Oceans I think is supposed to be Mikokoro, Center of the Sea. Especially as Chisei doesn't look too shiny...

I am totally now going to build a Chisei deck!

It has the word "Ascention" in it. That means you had better win rather quickly after dropping it, because you now have a full table against you.

The biggest part of the spinner in my book is that it can get the web out of the GY. This lets you re-use it when necessary, and also lets you toss it onto monstrous creatures that you would rather not let attack each turn. It also shuts down abilities.

The issue I have with ooze garden is the sorcery speed. Still good for Pact/etc, but doesn't serve as a reactionary role.

Quote from TobyornotToby

I have a Ramirez DePietro pirates theme deck (see sig) but here's the thing: you don't have to play every pirate. Pirates are all about stealing and that is a very strong ability. You can stuff your deck with stealing/copying cards and include just 5 worthless-but-cool pirate cards, and you'll end up with a deck that FEELS very pirate-like through play, but doesn't have to suck.

I was going to point out the same thing. I'm making a Ramirez deck as well (Darn you Potentially Toby!), and you have to keep in mind that pirate crews are a very varied lot of individuals; sure they're all pirates, but you have people from everywhere so you don't need to nail down to only "pirate" cards. There are also plenty of looters, pillagers, and suchlike. You can also add a variety of ships (most of which have been errata'd to pirate) and especially a nice selection of cannons.

Also, every pirate likes to bog themselves down with more weapons than arms, so a heavy equipment theme is in order. Add onto this the clepto package, (especially Carry Away) and you start to have a nice outline. If you're willing to spend a bit of cash, picking up a copy of piracy is just full of flavor.

Also on the piracy theme, any kind of kraken, or the drowned, etc, fits on topic as well.

Quote from Shishizaru

EDIT: Does anybody still play Mystic Snake and Glen Elendra Archmage? Those dudes are slow even in a normal deck.

My Edric deck is noticably slower; I built from scratch off of every unblockable guy I could find. This thread has been an absolute house of knowledge and I am loving the deck lists.

Even in my deck, Mystic snake is just an expensive counterspell. I have cut it. I like Glen Elendra in my current deck, as it is 2 counters in one, and has its own evasion; but after reading these lists, I honestly think she'll end up being cut as too expensive.

As far as equipment goes, it has been a power in my deck. Swords of various types are good, fire/ice is the least powerful for edric, as an extra card is meh, blue/red removal is meh. The powerhouse for me so far (and for most of commander decks) has been SoLaS. The life is typically more useful in other decks, but in edric, every creature you return is compounded return in cards. White and Black have the most targetted removal that you can deny, and also are two colors that tend to have cheap problem flyers (serra ascendant anyone?). A threatening piece of equipment that has worked well for me has been Empyrial Plate. I can only imagine as the mana curve drops, and you get more dorks drawing cards, its power will only increase; it also makes edric a quick threat from general damage.

As far as shroudy equipment goes, I would run Cloak and Dagger over the new boots (if competing for a slot, id run both if possible). Edric is a Rogue, and gets a free equip. I know typically you don't want to slow your opening, but with the other rogues in the deck, its never a dead draw for a free equip and always gives a nice +2. If edric ever does need to be re-cast, immediate protection.

I also run Asceticism to protect Edric, but as I mentioned my deck still has a higher mana curve currently. I have no doubt this will be cut as well as I incorporate much of your decklists.

EDIT: Sweet! I actually spelled Asceticism correctly on the first try! Score!

temple bell
howling mine
Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
etc...?

Quote from Bhaelfur

I was about to call you out on how that doesn't work, but it does work, and it's awesome. I love being enlightened.

He won't get anything new, but unless they have a shikari, they're going to have a fun time getting their stuff back. Vanishing would work as well.

A similar idea is Ogre Geargrabber.


He's also fun with Murderous Spoils.

Quote from NoDestiny

I found that Vulshok Battlemaster is a VERY fun card to play when everybody and their dog seems to run equipment any more! Ended up with 3 of my own, plus 2 from one player and another 1 from another... swung for 15 that turn, along with some sword effect, life gain, etc. Definitely a great card in any equipment-heavy play group!

This is a gem in my Sedris deck. I run teferi's veil so he phases post combat...

As other people have said, you are asking 3 different questions. Clearly your goal is to convey that prime/sphinx are more likely to be stolen by another player, and are thereby worse than Kokusho, and either stuff needs banned/unbanned.

The problem is that if you are asking about stealing something, or reanimating something once, yeah, kokusho is at the bottom of the list of all 3. For 1, he has to go to the GY (path, swords); for 2 he has a limited one shot benefit to you, which also generates a lot of hate. The problem is this view is wrong.

Kokusho is the most degenerate out of the three, because the deck gets built around him. For other people, he is a mediocre steal/copy at best; for the kokusho deck, he is an easy instant/quick win. Black has the easiest/most plentiful tutors, and black has an absurd amount of sac, reanimate, put stuff in my GY. Kokusho is a one man combo in that color.

So, to answer which is the most degenerate: Kokusho. Which I would want to steal: Prime Time, of the three he is the guy that complements any strategy best, and is the most powerful on a single card basis. If I'm playing green and get the option to steal something, it'll be the sphinx, for the same reason. Blue/Black have the card draw, but need ramp; green has the ramp, but wants cards, even there Prime Time would do lots of good things.

Even so, neither Prime or Sphinx is degenerate on its own. Both are absurdly powerful, but both of them are only enablers. You need something else to win you the game. Kokusho just wins.

Quote from Ogrefoot

Has anyone who plays Sedris kind of decided "screw it" and just pummel people with Unearthed creatures and quit trying to circumvent the drawback?

The problem with this is that u/b/r doesn't ramp very well, so typically you cheat the cards into your grave, and paying 2b to hit someone with something big once... isn't very profitable for you, and you run out of steam rather fast. Also, if you spend all your mana flinging your creatures from the grave, you tend to not have much left in the way of defense.

Quote from TheBigGamer

If by combo I can mean beat someone to death:

Turn 1: R/G scars land, birds
Turn 2: W/G scars land, darksteel ingot
Turn 3: U/B scars land, Horde of Notions, swing
Turn 4: basic land, runes of the Deus, swing, game

I completely fail to see this...
1) you can get horde out faster than that. (Coalition Relic>birds+ingot, for starters)
2) there are better ways to give doublestrike than runes
2.5) bear umbra > runes.
3) 5+7+7 still fails to be 21 general damage
4) you have failed to account for any form of creature removal, or blockers
5) turn 4 is rather slow.



Ill have to add +1 for the hermit druid though.

Every person arguing for the unbanning of a card is presenting each card as it would be used, face value in a standard deck. Please read up on how they were abused first. None of them were banned because you were playing across the kitchen table with your brother in fun decks of 100 rares you had lying around that dont fit into other decks.

Staff of Domination is a massive enabler. Whenever a combo goes out of control, its usually not the win condition that is the problem, it is whatever enables that win condition to reach unprecedented heights. Staff of Domination is simply a combo piece that can fit into so many combos too easily. It was practically a way to reduce the number of cards needed in many combos by 1. On top of that, but the card is also ridiculously good on its own.

Kokusho, the Evening Star was abused with recurring nightmare effects. Nightmare has since been banned, but similar one hit kills still exist (hell's caretaker + thornbite staff). Alone, this doesn't make kokusho any better or worse than any other instant win combo, Caretaker + Staff can be done with Highway Robber by example. However, Kokusho is far more reliable than his mortal counterpart... he hits every player, for 1/8th of their life. Even less quick, non-infinite combo's work well with him. Black has a rather strong ability to return dead creatures for cheap, and an even easier method to kill them off. Again, perhaps no longer stronger than any other combo deck... However Kokusho can be your general, and THERE is the big difference. When one part of your combo cannot be easily removed, does not need to be tutored, and the rest is so plentiful in black that you do not even need to have tutors to get it... its a bit of a power problem. I could see that without Nightmare, the argument that Kokusho should only be banned as a general, though I still fear its power level. Black has no issue with tutoring, putting stuff into graveyards, or discarding stuff from hand, that a good deck built around this card can still lay down a lot of hurt.

Protean Hulk (you really brought this up?) is easily abused. The number of 0/0 creatures you can get for free (clones?) is insane. The turn 0 kill deck was built around this guy. I'll give you a second to go google it. A deck that could kill your opponent before they ever drew a card, and that wasn't even the most reliable/best version of the deck. The number of combos this guy can pull out in a one shot tutor is ridiculous, and the number of effects to be able to cheat him into play in a manner that he dies is staggering. You could basically turn any creature search effect (which green, I am sure is short of) into a "tutor every piece of your infinite combo for free."

Quote from LowFr3eq

Momir Vig, Zur, Sharuum, Niv Mizzet.

Blue ones usually.

Did you really just name four of the biggest combo generals out there who blow up into an instant "I win?" On top of that, 3 of which tutor aggressively (and are then either a) evil, b) annoying, or c) waste time).

Heck, whenever I play Nemata, Grove Guardian I get hated almost immediately, but that's because the deck does one of 2 things. 1) Mana Ramp, 2) overrun. I can't blame them for gunning for me, because even I know that my deck is about 30 seconds from explosion, and nothing is even hidden.

4 generals that have easily tutorable, "Oh look, I win" cards/combos have every reason to draw instant hate.