My todays testings proved that SFM and Confidant are a super tech in the deck. Out knights have the strong bodys and protection and the CA of SFM and Confi speeds us up and wins the games.
The problem with metamorph in the SB: We need 4 Gravehate slots (Leyline) and 7-8 Combo hate cards. So there are 4 slots open. 2 for the new swords and at least 2 serenity vs random stuff like enchantress.
I have been concerned about diluting the knights theme with 4x Bob and 4x SFM. But i have to agree with you these 2 creatures are really massive and one of the best around. The CA from this 2 cards can also be very overwhelming. Somemore you are also playing Phyrexian Metamorph which can copy them for more degenerate card drawing. I'll try out your list myself to see how it works.
Don't forget metamorph in the sideboard is good against NO Progenitus or Show & Tell decks, i have some regulars in my meta piloting them so it might be applicable for me but i also have Retribution of the Meek.
If your not going to include Skullclamp your gonna need some other kind of draw, I'd recommend using both Sylvan Library (in conjunction with some deck shuffling) and Harmonize.
I'm not keen to include Skullclamp but Sylvan Library is good. Just that i have problems getting the card at the moment.
Werebear is pretty garbage if your not gonna play Skullclamp, lose it. Your deck as currently constructed is never gonna hit threshold early and you need to be dependent on the Muraganda Petroglyphs, plus you need room for draw, removal, and Door of Destinies.
Well, Werebear happens to be a bear, and i wanted some Mana ramp. That is the reason why i play Lotus Petal also. Right now my main concern is the lack of removals. Over the weekend i'll test it out. I still think splashing white will solve most of the problems.
I also think akrasan squire got too high of a rating, exalted just doesn't work with soldier decks. Battle cry on the other hand is exactly what soldier decks need
edit: tribal deck = mutavault auto include
2nd edit: Flagstones is a lot better than it appears to be, it allows you to thin the deck because it is legendary =)
I agree here on the Akrasan Squire. It might looks good on paper but the exalted is not effective enough. Even with the exalted i find my soldiers unable to attack during the earlier turns as opponents usually will have creatures bigger than me.
I played him in my Soldiers deck and playtested both him and Icatian Javalineers. The Javalineers were strictly better.
I've played against a really strong Bear deck before on MWS. The thing it had that yours doesn't mainly is Skullclamp. Other things it had that yours doesn't is Steely Resolve and Door of Destinies.
Steely Resolve looks really good. Maybe i should really splash White and mainboard Enlightened Tutor. With that i can reduce my Enchantments to 2-3 each since they are now tutorable.
Skullclamp is out as i don't wish to include banned Legacy cards.
The Jury is still out on Lotus Petal, i'll know after this weekend if it's worth it's place in Bears.
I made it a little smaller than the Hakai Banner (because of arrangement) but i think it's still decent. Hope you like it!
Hi Bornnover, thanks for your earlier efforts in creating the banner,
Can i check would it be possible to:
Switch the Black knight to facing the same direction as Haakon?
Also, are you still working on:
"I'm thinking would it be possible for the Haakon Art to be much larger, Exemplar to be slightly larger, Black and White knight both in the background(feel free to resize the creatures in the banner)
Wrath without Exemplar is still solid, but I agree that all copies can be moved to the sideboard, as I expect a lot of combo and RDW-type-decks. The problem with Hero of Bladehold and Kinsbaile Cavalier is that they just offer too little at a cmc of 4. I typically want to vial things out, and keep my creature cost down, plus both of those are underwhelming for the cost (Hero is fine in Standard, but just doesn't have an impact here). I'd rather toss in another Elspeth or another equipment to fill the void of Wraths. I also agree on more Ghost Quarter and less total land...I just kind of put up a generic number of land to start, but we need 4x Ghost Quarter to deal with any early copies of Valakut (in case we don't out-aggro them before it hits). I would probably now go with something like:
I'm trying FoD now, because I really think we need another 1-drop for Vial, and this gives me something to do with mana at the end of turn. It could also be Phyrexian Metamorph, but I don't want another 3-drop. I'm also playing around with various Puresteel Paladin decks in all formats, but that takes it in a pretty different direction.
I tend to agree with you on Hero of Bladehold being slow. I never tested it in legacy but even in Standard at times it seems a bit too slow.
However Kinsbaile Cavalier is different, the ability gaining first-strikes kicks in straight away which makes a key difference. It may turn a losing board position around immediately unlike Hero which needs to attack next turn and may not guarantee an impact.
I saw your list having both 4x Figure of Destiny, 4x Student of Warfare. Both set of creatures are very mana-intensive leveling creatures, i thought playing 8 in total is too many. You also need to use mana to cast/drop equipments or equip therefore i'm concerned you may not have the opportunity to level those creatures. Having too many of them in the opening hand is also bad as leveling one usually mean the other is a vanilla 1/1. Maybe playing a combination of 6 of them is a better number.
I think Phyrexian Metamorph versatility is its strongest point. If i have space i'll drop at least one in. It may be your answer to removal against legendary permanents/another sword or copying your own key creatures.
The deck is never to slow. Look at the current meta, the only fast decks at the moment are the combos/ichorids. All of them are a preboard-autoloss. So here our SB is very important and the fact that our hate have to be free (Leylines, Surg. Extr, etc) so that we can still expand our boardposition.
All other decks are not so fast.
I will put SoBaM and SoWaP in my sideboard. Against some decks they are an autowin.
I guess my meta might be faster than yours. Even Vindicate is too slow for me, which i why i'm not playing it in my BW lists.
You are correct about Knights being an auto-loss to combo and dredge, there is no way we can win by turn 4 and those decks can win even before that. I usually play only 4 hate cards against Combo and Dredge respectively because that is the most i can afford at the moment.
I already have SoBM in my sideboard. I'm still considering SoWP though.
Together with SFM and Batterskull Dark Confidant is our best removalcatcher. They eat every single removal. So nearly every Mirran or Exemplar hits the board and stays there!
My current problem is the missing of metamorph cause he is so a versatile card, but I need the CA of Confidant:( There is simply so space for them.
With all the equipment (4) Puresteel Paladine is still not good enough. Just wanted to say that;)
Dark Confidant is a magnet for removal. Period. Killing Bob is akin to breaking a Standstill as soon as you see it (that is how i look at it anyway).
Perhaps you can keep Phyrexian Metamorph in the sideboard? And i like the fact we can bypass counters by putting Metamorph into play via Aether Vial.
Yes i also agree Puresteel is not good enough. It doesn't belongs to Knights at the moment. A measly card advantage(i'm being optimistic) is not justification for playing him here.
oh, but the art is depicting Tigers...anyway thanks for the suggestion.
Let me decktest over the weekend and see if it is feasible to attack with enough cuddly bears to reach 7 counters. If it does then this card certainly belongs here.
I think lead the stampede may replace brass herald. At 6cc I'm not if I'll be able to get to cast it. I wasn't keen to use Harmonized because i didn't want another 4cc spell. I'll attempt the original decklist and see how it performs first.
Adaptive automation also could belong here, replacing brass herald and 1 bear?
I love this idea. The only cards that I might add are Door of Destinies and something to refill your hand like Harmonize.
Nice suggestions, i also thought of Harmonize, but felt it was too slow and i will probably just get more 2/2 bears so i ended up with striped bears.
Didnt really thought of Door of Destinies, nice alternative pump card.
I actually think splashing white for Swords to Plowshares and Enlightened Tutor would solve my deck problem against creatures/artifacts and enchantments but it will make the Bear deck intimidating and it won't be so cute anymore
Thought of forming a fun deck which will make my mates fall off the chair....secretly i also hope it'll be competitive despite the name and nature of the deck.
Please offer some advice on ways to make it stronger.
Nothing beats whipping their ass with a deck which they probably don't take seriously!
i already have the NO toolbox, so i can sideboard this and make my friends fall off the chair again..when i cast NO, sacrificing one of Richel's Bear. No more bear for you.
I figured out since i don't have one drop, why not play a few Khalni Garden?
Kitesail is there because i do not want to fold to a 1/1 flyer cast on the first turn...
I know there is a lot of weak cards, but i'm basically building the deck based on some fringe cards available. What i'm worried about the deck is a lack of removals.
By the way if you are wondering who/what is Richel? She is my baby niece who loves Bears so i dedicate this decklist to her.
Bad performance:
Sword of War and Peace: Changes nothing at the boardposition. Life is irrelevant cause you can often kill with one crusader hit. Never searched for it with mystics. 5 Equipments are too much, 4 for the toolbox are enough.
Good performance:
Batterskull: I tutored it a lot. When you cast mystic turn two and reveal your batterskull it reads like: Opponent please use your removal and kill me as quick as possible or will smash your face. It’s like a free removal discard spell, which protects our more important knights (mirran, student, exemplar) from death. I feel it deserves one spot. If you find it in the middle or lategame and equip it it’s gg like Elspeth.
Metamorph again was a house. Copying Jitte, Batterskull, Obliterator, etc.
Personally I have been so much in favor of Jitte, SoFI & SoLS to the extent that I’m not willing to consider any other Swords or equipment. I still find them as the best maindeck equipments at the moment. However I feel SoWP might replace SoBM if you are already running multiple copies of Mirran Crusader or if your meta is full of RDW and Zoo decks. I also agree with you that 5 equipments is overkill here. Too many equipments makes the deck very chunky.
Important for me is the fact that we can’t create CA. I think here your Haakons Confidant-List is the key to your future. I will try to get a playset of confidants in the new list. So maybe the amazing metamorphes have to go (beside SoWaP). Then I add 4 confis which will lead to a 61 card list;)
He will be a great addition and create some CA. What do you think?
Knights really struggle for Card advantage. Dark Confidant is a massive card advantage tool which when vial in during EOT enable us to get at least 1 card before it is removed subsequently. Against better players, Bob is always a magnet for removal which allows my Knight Exemplar or Haakon to hang around longer. Most times i'll even bait a removal with Knight Exemplar in order to ensure Bob goes through. I usually play Knights of Meadowgrain to counter against loss of life from Bob but you already have SoWP, SoLS and Batterskull so I think the life loss issue is pretty much covered.
Although Bob is very good, but i feel playing 4 Bobs and 4 SFM is detriment to the deck identity. We are looking at eight non-knights 2 drops which effectively means no more spaces for other 2 drop knights. Exemplar or Haakon would seem less useful and redundant here and we might be better off with the deadguy deck instead of forcing a knights theme. This is also why i have two BW knights build in my primer - Haakon's Swords and Haakon's Confidant.
I notice you have a relatively high mana curve with many 3 drops, do you have any issues with the deck moving too slowly?
Now we also have Grand Abolisher from M12, which looks like a card that belongs to any W sideboard. It's tough taking out cards at the moment and i don't usually practise much with sideboard so i'm not sure what i can do with this card at the moment.
Moving on, I'm going to update my Primer with these 3 new cards with some comments:
Sure, thanks for helping, i'm not a very artistic or creative person and i guess you know what makes a better design, however i was hoping the banner will have more focus on the Haakon and Exemplar, with Black and white knights more like sidekicks in the background, seeing a bit of their horses might be good but like you say it might not look nice.
In any case, thanks again and i very much appreciate your attention. cheers!
I'm thinking would it be possible for the Haakon Art to be much larger, Exemplar to be slightly larger, and both Black and White knight both retaining the same size and acting as the backdrop(hopefully can see their horse as well). (feel free to resize the creatures in the banner)
I have been concerned about diluting the knights theme with 4x Bob and 4x SFM. But i have to agree with you these 2 creatures are really massive and one of the best around. The CA from this 2 cards can also be very overwhelming. Somemore you are also playing Phyrexian Metamorph which can copy them for more degenerate card drawing. I'll try out your list myself to see how it works.
Don't forget metamorph in the sideboard is good against NO Progenitus or Show & Tell decks, i have some regulars in my meta piloting them so it might be applicable for me but i also have Retribution of the Meek.
Hey, i saw your list and have already replied your PM with some of my thoughts on the list. Looks good and ready to RUMBLE!
Most importantly, GOOD LUCK & ALL THE BEST to you!
I'm not keen to include Skullclamp but Sylvan Library is good. Just that i have problems getting the card at the moment.
Caller of the Claw looks more like a sideboard card to me. Correct me if i'm wrong but it seems only good against decks playing boardwipe etc.
Well, Werebear happens to be a bear, and i wanted some Mana ramp. That is the reason why i play Lotus Petal also. Right now my main concern is the lack of removals. Over the weekend i'll test it out. I still think splashing white will solve most of the problems.
I agree here on the Akrasan Squire. It might looks good on paper but the exalted is not effective enough. Even with the exalted i find my soldiers unable to attack during the earlier turns as opponents usually will have creatures bigger than me.
I played him in my Soldiers deck and playtested both him and Icatian Javalineers. The Javalineers were strictly better.
Sure, nice to hear someone here also appreciate the bears
Did the Bear deck play both Muraganda Petroglyphs and Door of Destinies?
Steely Resolve looks really good. Maybe i should really splash White and mainboard Enlightened Tutor. With that i can reduce my Enchantments to 2-3 each since they are now tutorable.
Skullclamp is out as i don't wish to include banned Legacy cards.
The Jury is still out on Lotus Petal, i'll know after this weekend if it's worth it's place in Bears.
Hi Bornnover, thanks for your earlier efforts in creating the banner,
Can i check would it be possible to:
Switch the Black knight to facing the same direction as Haakon?
Also, are you still working on:
"I'm thinking would it be possible for the Haakon Art to be much larger, Exemplar to be slightly larger, Black and White knight both in the background(feel free to resize the creatures in the banner)
Overall increase the size of the banner as well?"
Thanks again!
I tend to agree with you on Hero of Bladehold being slow. I never tested it in legacy but even in Standard at times it seems a bit too slow.
However Kinsbaile Cavalier is different, the ability gaining first-strikes kicks in straight away which makes a key difference. It may turn a losing board position around immediately unlike Hero which needs to attack next turn and may not guarantee an impact.
I saw your list having both 4x Figure of Destiny, 4x Student of Warfare. Both set of creatures are very mana-intensive leveling creatures, i thought playing 8 in total is too many. You also need to use mana to cast/drop equipments or equip therefore i'm concerned you may not have the opportunity to level those creatures. Having too many of them in the opening hand is also bad as leveling one usually mean the other is a vanilla 1/1. Maybe playing a combination of 6 of them is a better number.
I think Phyrexian Metamorph versatility is its strongest point. If i have space i'll drop at least one in. It may be your answer to removal against legendary permanents/another sword or copying your own key creatures.
Puresteel Paladin doesnt seems to belong here at the moment IMO.
My favorite version of Legacy Knights was GW, and i feel the best cards splashing G could bring in was Qasali Pridemage, Knight of the Reliquary , Horizon Canopy and Krosan Grip.
I'll add a GW decklist shortly.
I guess my meta might be faster than yours. Even Vindicate is too slow for me, which i why i'm not playing it in my BW lists.
You are correct about Knights being an auto-loss to combo and dredge, there is no way we can win by turn 4 and those decks can win even before that. I usually play only 4 hate cards against Combo and Dredge respectively because that is the most i can afford at the moment.
I already have SoBM in my sideboard. I'm still considering SoWP though.
Dark Confidant is a magnet for removal. Period. Killing Bob is akin to breaking a Standstill as soon as you see it (that is how i look at it anyway).
Perhaps you can keep Phyrexian Metamorph in the sideboard? And i like the fact we can bypass counters by putting Metamorph into play via Aether Vial.
Yes i also agree Puresteel is not good enough. It doesn't belongs to Knights at the moment. A measly card advantage(i'm being optimistic) is not justification for playing him here.
oh, but the art is depicting Tigers...anyway thanks for the suggestion.
Let me decktest over the weekend and see if it is feasible to attack with enough cuddly bears to reach 7 counters. If it does then this card certainly belongs here.
Adaptive automation also could belong here, replacing brass herald and 1 bear?
Feels like Return of the Bears or Bear planet lol
Anyway i already have 4x Muraganda Petroglyphs & 4x Words of Wilding so i don't wish to drop any more bears for these cards...
Btw i also considered both Shared Triumph and Gaea's Anthem but eventually settle on only playing 8 Enchantments which is more than enough i guess.
Nice suggestions, i also thought of Harmonize, but felt it was too slow and i will probably just get more 2/2 bears so i ended up with striped bears.
Didnt really thought of Door of Destinies, nice alternative pump card.
I actually think splashing white for Swords to Plowshares and Enlightened Tutor would solve my deck problem against creatures/artifacts and enchantments but it will make the Bear deck intimidating and it won't be so cute anymore
Amazing banner done by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios . Very Highly Recommended!
Hi Guys,
Thought of forming a fun deck which will make my mates fall off the chair....secretly i also hope it'll be competitive despite the name and nature of the deck.
Please offer some advice on ways to make it stronger.
Nothing beats whipping their ass with a deck which they probably don't take seriously!
Here goes:
4 Balduvian Bears
4 Bear Cub
2 Brass Herald
4 Forest Bear
2 Golden Bear
4 Grizzly Bears
3 Striped Bears
4 Werebear
4 Muraganda Petroglyphs
1 Seal of Primordium
4 Words of Wilding
Artifacts [7]
3 Kitesail
4 Lotus Petal
14 Forest
3 Khalni Garden
This is Sideboard Number One
i already have the NO toolbox, so i can sideboard this and make my friends fall off the chair again..when i cast NO, sacrificing one of Richel's Bear. No more bear for you.
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Krosan Grip
4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
4 Summoning Trap
Sideboard 2:
Imagine how your opponents feel when they lose to a bunch of enlightened Bears?
The maindeck should have 4 Sunpetal Grove instead of Khalni Garden.
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Gravity Well
1 Null Rod
1 Phyrexian Metaphor
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Seal of Primordium
I figured out since i don't have one drop, why not play a few Khalni Garden?
Kitesail is there because i do not want to fold to a 1/1 flyer cast on the first turn...
I know there is a lot of weak cards, but i'm basically building the deck based on some fringe cards available. What i'm worried about the deck is a lack of removals.
By the way if you are wondering who/what is Richel? She is my baby niece who loves Bears so i dedicate this decklist to her.
Nice, good to hear about your experiences with Phyrexian Metamorph, Sword of War and Peace and Batterskull. I also added deck tags for the decklist.
Personally I have been so much in favor of Jitte, SoFI & SoLS to the extent that I’m not willing to consider any other Swords or equipment. I still find them as the best maindeck equipments at the moment. However I feel SoWP might replace SoBM if you are already running multiple copies of Mirran Crusader or if your meta is full of RDW and Zoo decks. I also agree with you that 5 equipments is overkill here. Too many equipments makes the deck very chunky.
Knights really struggle for Card advantage. Dark Confidant is a massive card advantage tool which when vial in during EOT enable us to get at least 1 card before it is removed subsequently. Against better players, Bob is always a magnet for removal which allows my Knight Exemplar or Haakon to hang around longer. Most times i'll even bait a removal with Knight Exemplar in order to ensure Bob goes through. I usually play Knights of Meadowgrain to counter against loss of life from Bob but you already have SoWP, SoLS and Batterskull so I think the life loss issue is pretty much covered.
Although Bob is very good, but i feel playing 4 Bobs and 4 SFM is detriment to the deck identity. We are looking at eight non-knights 2 drops which effectively means no more spaces for other 2 drop knights. Exemplar or Haakon would seem less useful and redundant here and we might be better off with the deadguy deck instead of forcing a knights theme. This is also why i have two BW knights build in my primer - Haakon's Swords and Haakon's Confidant.
I notice you have a relatively high mana curve with many 3 drops, do you have any issues with the deck moving too slowly?
Now we also have Grand Abolisher from M12, which looks like a card that belongs to any W sideboard. It's tough taking out cards at the moment and i don't usually practise much with sideboard so i'm not sure what i can do with this card at the moment.
Moving on, I'm going to update my Primer with these 3 new cards with some comments:
Phyrexian Metamorph
Grand Abolisher
Batterskull
In any case, thanks again and i very much appreciate your attention. cheers!
It looks great, i like it very much and i have added it into my thread:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=6715557#post6715557
I'm thinking would it be possible for the Haakon Art to be much larger, Exemplar to be slightly larger, and both Black and White knight both retaining the same size and acting as the backdrop(hopefully can see their horse as well). (feel free to resize the creatures in the banner)
Overall increase the size of the banner as well?
Thanks again for the great banner!