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  • posted a message on [Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
    Quote from Gallimar
    Here is my Mono White update on Mommy's Knights

    I added 2 more land and took out the hawks for Mirran Crusader

    I also took out sword of feast and famine and added a basilisk collar, to many 3cc equipments make them to exspensive to get out on to the table

    In a matchup against Zoo it was just to rough, I need to work on that and will hopefully report some findings soon. Maybe i got unlucky as i didnt draw into any PtE or StP. My hand just wasnt as quick as what it sometimes is - any way that was just one match against Zoo. I need more than 1 before i make any deep analysis.

    Mom is a key card. She protects your Knights from removal and makes them immune to damage when blocking until they are made indestructable. When this happens she then gives them protection from the opposing blockers making sure they get through. Just add equipment for even more control


    I think by now it has been established which of the knights are the usual "suspects". Good to hear Mom is working well in your deck. I just brought a set of Moms and will try them too.

    I feel the matchup against Zoo is unfavourable as they simply have way too many removals than us. Their creatures is cheaper and bigger as well. In most games my Zoo opponent does not even bother to remove the equipments as they can simply kill all my creatures. To make it worse, even a typical knight equipped with SoFI & SoLS is not big enough to kill Tarmogoyf. They probably have 10 removal spells or more for my Knight Exemplar so dont count on it sticking around for even a few turns. Mirran Crusader suffers the same fate with Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Path to Exile and Swords to Plowshares all over the place.

    Some of the best ways to play Zoo will be to resolve a Jitte or Elspeth to stall the board PLUS killing their first turn Nacatl. I always kill the cat whenever i sees it. Never allow Nacatl to deal early damage as Zoo can easily finish you off before you can set up your board. Zoo is also fast in clearing their hand and relying on topdeck mode unlike our deck which tend to have more "gas" thanks to the Stoneforge toolbox & Elspeth.

    Sideboarding Retribution of the Meek will be key in removing their biggies. Your StP and PtE will be sufficient in taking out their Wild Nacatl and Grim Lavamancer. From there you should have more "gas" to finish off your Zoo opponent.

    Quote from Gallimar
    sidebaord cards considered for vial knights

    GY hate or mill protection - Wheel of Sun and Moon

    This could be nasty Privileged Position



    I think Relic of Progenitus and Tormod's Crypt are better graveyard hate. They are cheaper to put into play and can be sacrifice in response to bounce or removal spells unlike Wheel of Sun and Moon.

    Privileged Position has a nasty ability but at 5cc it is too expensive so i dont know how i can utilise it. It is too expensive as a maindeck card and i'm not sure how i can sideboard him. I dont think i'll ever use him. At 5cc i want a bomb, and this is not a bomb. This is probably a card which will enhance an already winning board. Take note that the card is useless if you dont have a strong board. It doesnt do anything if you are struggling in a game and is looking for a solution.

    Thanks for suggesting this 2 cards, however as per my analysis i wont be adding it into the primer. Please let me know if my opinions on them needs to be corrected. I'm more than keen to find deserving cards to add into the primer.
    Posted in: Developing (Legacy)
  • posted a message on [Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
    Quote from Gallimar


    Sword of Feast and famine allows you to do all of this so my answer is 2 and 3

    but that also depends on what options are avaliable to you - In short, - The more choices the better.



    I'm not sure but i usually won't look for a Sword of F&F although it has good synergy with Student of Warfare. The sword is not even in my maindeck. But since you are playing Hawks i guess that's the right choice.

    Quote from Gallimar


    Matchup to U.G.W. (2-1) Knights Win - Fight for board - The Indestructible Knights obsorbed the Tarmogoyfs / Mothers and equipped Hawks obsorbed the swords to plowshares and the equipment presence abosorbed Qasali Pridemage - But in the end, constant Indestructible Knights backed with Plowshares and Path to Exile wins - My blockers stop his aggro until I get aggro control and life link Knights on the table - its a long game, and control and board presence is key here.



    It seems Mother of Runes was key in stalling the board which eventually gave you the time to setup the board effectively with indestructable knights. I have been tempted to try Mom but having 12 one drops (including Student & Vial) will tend to make the deck quite lightweight. That said i might still play Mom when i form my Mono-white.

    Quote from VenomMoth
    Pretty well, I haven't run into problems. Flagstones origins started back when I was running Buried Alive to lower the amount of lands I drew into after filling my yard and to get closer to changeling/misc cards (Marsh Flats wasn't around back then when I first built my knight deck either :P). They're good for hitting both colors in a pinch. IMO, I feel they help more than hurt as the thinning and fixing out weigh losing the one mana drop. The build that I use has such a low mana curve it shouldn't hurt to much as almost every card (10 cards excluded) in the deck can be played on turn two. Mileage may vary but I'd still recommend them even for a higher cmc deck.


    I'll probably play only 2-3 flagstones as the potential early mana-drop lost did happened to me a few times when i was running 4 of them. Getting 2 of them in your first 10 cards is a very real possibility and the mana-drop lost was crucial to my game-plan. It was too much to sacrifice for the extra bit of thinning it does for the deck.

    Quote from EnemyWithin

    The Puresteel Paladin deck idea didn't really work out as planned, so I changed it back closer to the original build. Here's what I have now:



    Good try on the Puresteel Paladin, i guess you know better than us it wasnt going to work but you just had to go for it? I haven't build my mono-white yet but i'm still quite reluctant to try puresteel at the moment. If he wasn't a knight i wouldnt be so torn over him...

    Anyway i noticed you had 4 Knight of Meadowgrain maindeck. What is your take on them over White or Silver Knight? I would like to think it is personal preference but i'm starting to lean towards Meadowgrain after i playtest them in my B/W knight deck.

    Below is my B/W deck which i playtested against a Tier One U/W Counterbalance Thorpter deck and a Casual Faerie deck.

    Kindly let me know what you guys think about it. I removed Vindicate before knowing which decks i was playing against. Leonin Relic-Warder was added because i felt i had too many 3 casting cost spells and it feels cool to be able to Vial in artifact/enchantment removal.


    Black & White Legacy Knights, Haakon's Confidant


    Matchup
    Counter-Thropter W 5-1
    Managed to beat Counter-throper very easily, the only game i lost was when i was struck with 1 Plains & 1 Swamps for a few turns which was sufficient for him to setup his combo and lock. For that game Haakon was in my graveyard ready to be cast into play but it was too late.
    During our games my opponent was not impressed with Haakon saying he could Swords to Plowshares him, i promptly told him to keep his Plowshares for Haakon then.
    Most of the games were a breeze for me because Leonin Relic-Warder was able to smash him combo to pieces. A first turn Vial will also be a very easy win for me. Stillmoon & Student was a huge source of damage against his deck which often draw his removal before i cast Leonin Relic-Warder.

    Faerie-Curiosity W 4-1
    Lost the only game because i was land-screwed again. The other games were also a breeze as I mostly use Vial to bypass his Spellsutter combo. The trick against this deck is to remove his Faerie early which is quite easy when i have 7 removals maindecked. Knight of Meadowgrain was also able to provide me with enough life-gain to overcome early damage from the flyers.

    Posted in: Developing (Legacy)
  • posted a message on [Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
    This decklist is definitely much stronger than your previous list with the stoneforge toolbox, as the deck now has a more consistent win-con and better firepower to win the game.

    I have been tempted to play Mother of Runes as it is a good stall board. And i agree with Mother being a magnet for removal will at least enable your other creatures to hang around for a longer time. Long enough to setup the 2x Knight Exemplar combo. There were many games when at least 2 of my Knight Exemplar were removed soon after the other.

    However i think you will find yourself spoiled with choices in the early turns on how best to utilise your mana, there may be some turns whereby the possibilities is endless:
    1) Cast Squadron Hawk to fill up the hand
    2) Cast a Stoneforge Mystic

    3) Drop an equipment into play
    4) Equip an Equipment

    5) Pump a Student of Warfare

    My experiences from my type 2 build, out of the 5 options it seems Squadron Hawk is the worst card to play most of the time.

    Maybe you can also try:
    +2 Elpseth, the Knight Errant
    -1 Knight of Meadowgrain
    -1 Squadron Hawk

    When you get board wiped or locked by counter-balance or Jace T2 etc, this may be key to recovering from such a matchup.
    Alternatively, it is better playing Elspeth rather than a bunch of weenies when the game stalls..
    Posted in: Developing (Legacy)
  • posted a message on [Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
    Quote from Gallimar


    So why is Mother of Runes and squadron hawk in here?

    Well squadron hawk gives you card draw and thins your deck and provides some creatures to play

    Mother of Runes is a good 1 drop to get the party started and is good early and late game

    fetch lands also thin your deck - So getting this deck to flow right without running out of gas is vital

    Pariah + Any Knight + Knight Exemplar

    against mono coloured decks - Pariah + Mother of Runes (doesnt work well against red unless you got 2xMother of Runes defending one another each turn

    Pariah is preference, you can trade it in for Armored Ascension for more beats or more equip swords and Stoneforge Mystic

    Pariah is also fun when enchanting someone elses Indestructable creature and serves as creature removal is a way.

    Honor of the Pure is also preference, again you can trade it in for Armored Ascension for more beats or more equip swords and Stoneforge Mystic - sometimes pulling out equip swords and messing around with Mystics can be beaten just by beefing up your Squadron Hawks with an Honor of the Pure out and a couple of swords of plowshares at the ready

    Against other swords decks I just go creature hate by delving into my sideboard

    Knights can beat people fairly fast, but if theres no gas in your draws or disruption, this deck features the indestructable combo you can aim for until you are able to do something about it

    The sideboard allows you to go artifact/enchantment hate or creature hate\



    I think your deck might be a bit too slow with the 4 Squadron Hawks. Tapping 2 mana for a 1/1 flyer is also too underwhelming compared to other popular legacy creatures. Those turns casting the Hawks will just allow your opponent to set up the board easily. Crawblade is not even competitive in legacy.

    By playing Mother of Runes do you think you have too many 1-drop? In total there is 12 1-drop here. I'll give the Pariah/Knight exemplar a miss because no one plays enchant creatures anymore and this mini-combo is too reliant on having a Knight Exemplar and another Knight creature for it to work. Besides he can easily kill your Knight Exemplar to mess up the combo.

    Since there isn't any fourth drop, maybe you can consider replacing the 3 Honor of the pure for Ajani Goldman. Always around when you have no creatures, never around when you have plently of creatures. Most of the time you will prefer to have another creature,removal or DOJ. Reason enough to exclude it.

    This play style for this deck list actually looks quite similar to my Type 2 Mono-White Build.



    Quote from Gallimar
    [deck]
    Knights can beat people fairly fast, but if theres no gas in your draws or disruption, this deck features the indestructable combo you can aim for until you are able to do something about it


    Unfortunately i think with this decklist if you cant swarm opponents for the win during the early turns your "gas" is not big or strong enough to kill off your opponent.
    Posted in: Developing (Legacy)
  • posted a message on [Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
    Casual Legacy Knights Deck

    Contents:

    1) Introduction
    2) Decklist

    1) Introduction

    I always had a soft touch for knights, so when i saw the shards block had so many different knights i went out to collect them all despite knowing they might not see serious play. As such i decided to form a casual Knight deck here.

    Knight of Reliquary would be a bomb here, however lets keep this card for the competitive knights thread.

    I'm aware Aether Vial is not cheap but every tribal deck should play it. the rest of the creatures should not cost more than $5-6 each. If it does, than it doesnt belong here.

    Stoneforge Mystic is too pricey to be considered casual, and i'm not used to playing equipments without her. However i might add in Sword of Vengeance at a later stage after playtesting.

    I'm also looking at using the cheaper Planeswalkers but it seems there is only Garruk Wildspeaker or Ajani Goldmane available at the moment.




    2) Decklist



    For the really budget conscious, we can take out the 4 Vials and replace them with Elvish Pioneer or other mana accelerant.

    Posted in: Budget (Legacy)
  • posted a message on [Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
    Quote from Rith-Shadowbane
    For BW Knights, how about a nice Phyrexian Tower. Sure, you don't want many colorless cards, but it'll help keep things going to the graveyard as well for being a sometimes-help sac`ing off a blocked critter to pump a knight or cast an Inversion off from one land.


    Phyrexian Tower looks reasonable here with some decent applications. It can be used when we are unable to get the 2 black to cast Haakon, or like you mention the additional mana it provides might enable us to pump a knight/equip and attack same turn or cast planeswalker one turn earlier etc.
    However being quite conservative i would still prefer to stick to basic lands.

    Quote from VenomMoth
    Between Flagstones, Flats, White Orchid, Entomb and Bob I've had a good amount of speed and fixing to help setup. Vindicate and Wastelands for added control. Everything else is pretty much old hat. I'm pretty happy with its performance so far. You can tear it apart if you like, our builds are going to come down to personal preference I think at this point.


    How is the Flagstones working for you? Early on when you have a Flagstone in play i realised we temporarily lose one mana drop because we cannot tap the second Flagstone for mana when put into play. When this happens during the 3rd or 4th turn it really messes up our tempo.

    Yeah, you are absolutely right here, at this point it is mostly personal preference and meta call.

    Quote from EnemyWithin
    I don't mind at all, I'd be happy to have my deck as part of the primer. And I'm hoping for another knight lord or some more knight synergy cards in either M12 or Innistrad. 8 lords might actually put us on the competitive map.

    If I were to go back to that, I think I might switch out Silver Knight for something else, either Knight of Meadowgrain or Sigiled Paladin, and then switch out Sword of Light and Shadow for Sword of War and Peace.


    Thanks, i have added your decklist into the Primer.

    I also hope we'll get some worthly knights in the new expansions. Puresteel is so weak it didnt even had first strike!

    I'm not sure if Sigiled Paladin is good enough, exalted is good but protection from colors are better. The knights deck usually need to stall in the early turns and exalted does not aid this purpose at all.

    Quote from Gallimar
    very useful primer, will be using it for my new white project


    I'm very glad you find it useful. That is the very intention of this primer. Cheers.
    Posted in: Developing (Legacy)
  • posted a message on [Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
    Quote from EnemyWithin
    @Nabbydian: You have some very valid concerns on the Puresteel Paladin deck, concerns that I also have. I haven't really gotten the chance to test it out yet (I'm also working on Tezzeret Affinity), and this is kind of an experimental build. I know I have only 5 equipments, but I'm hoping the 4 Mystics will make up for that, since they can tutor equipment, and using Mystic to put equipment into play still triggers Paladin's draw ability. I want to at least try out a build based on the Paladin, and if it doesn't work out then I will go back to the old build. My old build was a lot different, and ran 3X Elspeth and more lands. I'll post my original non-Paladin list later. I don't run Elspeth in the current Paladin build because I don't think I have enough mana sources to support 4-drops, especially considering Ancient Den's vulnerability to Wasteland, and Elspeth can't be vialed in like my creatures can.


    It is always nice to explore different variants or engage knights from a different angle. I suspect WoTC created Puresteel Paladin for Quest or Equipment decks rather than for Knights Tribal. Anyway the best way to know how a deck or concept perform is through decktesting. I'll look forward to your results once you play it although i think eventually i'll also give it a shot considering i already have all the cards.

    Actually i can still remember most of your Mono-White(Seven Kingdoms) deck. It looks the strongest it can be, so if you dont mind i'll add your Mono-White decklist into my primer in the first post and credit you as the original creator. To be honest I doubt my mono-white creation will be much different from your list when i comes round to it after i finish my other decklists.

    we only have those few knights and the Stoneforge toolbox to play with...
    Posted in: Developing (Legacy)
  • posted a message on [Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
    Quote from VenomMoth

    Even if it takes a little bit longer to Vial Haakon in if you can't Entomb, you might not have anything worth while in the grave to play by turn 3-4.


    From my playtesting on the other builds, usually whenever the window opens for Haakon to come in via Vial or hard-cast through Entomb, we should have at least 1-3 creatures in the graveyard from removal or combat. I also increased the creature count to reduce the occurances of this scenario. I also think if you know Haakon is going to come into play soon, you might be more receptive to losing creatures through combat attrition.

    Quote from VenomMoth

    Like I said it is still a great card, don't get me wrong but there are going to be times when you want/need to use 3 mana for casting the bulk of your cards and that is when they start to compete with each other. 3 mana for Exemplar, 3 for Haakon, and then you need to pay 3 for Crusader, pay 3 for Stillmoon and 3 if you choose to level up Student. You'll end up with hands where all you will have is cmc 3, it will really slow you down. Also, Exemplar and Haakon become priority targets which forces you to re-cast them more often. Being able to level up the Student is like the cherry on top as she comes in for one mana.


    yeah you are right, i totally forgot about the mana curve of the deck when changing the 2 black/white knights lists, thus missing out on the huge increase in the number of 3 drops. The deck also requires mana on the equipping of swords,Jitte etc.

    This is the reason why i try to play as little non-basic lands(lesser wasteland targets) and Wasteland as it will affect our tempo more in most cases.

    I have since changed some of the creature choices.Thanks for pointing it out and feel free to critique on the updated list...
    Posted in: Developing (Legacy)
  • posted a message on [Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
    Quote from EnemyWithin
    I can see your point on Buried Alive, but I still would recommend taking out Dark Ritual. Those are spots you could devote to something else much more useful. And by the way, you made a very nice primer for the knights archetype, and I actually think this thread should replace my thread as the main thread for tribal knights, and maybe just link my thread in the first post if you didn't already. There are some good discussions in that thread, but yours has a detailed primer with several different builds, and discussion is already taking off.

    Since you don't have a mono white list, I'll post mine, which is centered (but not dependant) on Puresteel Paladin. Honestly, I'm not sure how mono white knights stacks up to multicolored knights. There are some pros and cons, I know.



    Neurok Hoversail is in there for Moat. Without Hoversail, I auto scoop to it. My sideboard, which is a work in progress, is mainly dedicated to the control and combo matchups, and has answers to Moat, but I'd rather my first game not be an auto-loss. This build is a little heavier on equipment and lighter on lands, since ideally you get to metalcraft and the Paladin allows you to equip for free. You should also be able to draw at least 1 or 2 cards off of the Paladin's first ability. However, even in the absence or death of Paladin, 20 lands should be enough with Aether Vial, KO2, Divining Top, and PtE (which you can use on your own creatures in desperate times).


    Thanks for the feedback & recommendations, i'll add a link to your thread at the beginning of my post shortly. Over the weekend while decktesting R/W knights & following the discussion here on B/W knights I realised Aether Vial is too important to left out even in other knight variants. Thus i realised this thread will eventually be all about Vial knights although i didnt set out to do so.

    I think in a mono-white knights vs Multi colored knights matchup, the first deck to get a equipment/exemplar will gain a massive board-swing so it is pretty much luck-based. However Multi-colored should have the slight advantage due to its maindeck artifact/enchantment removal such as Qasali Pridgemage/Duergar Hedge-Mage etc. Have you considered playing Leonin Relic-Warder as a solution against Moat/ Ensnaring Bridge?

    The key benefit on playing Mono-White Knights is the stable land base, therefore being centered on Puresteel paladin would have diluted this advantage. I saw you had included 3 Darksteel Citadel for metalcraft and to negate the wasteland thread which is very appropriate here. The deck has a nice mana curve but i think at the moment it is too reliant on equipments to win the game. There is no 4th drop so maybe i will take out one Mirran Crusader/Knight of the White Orchid for the Planeswalker Elspeth, Knight-Errant, since you will have another option if you need evasion. He can also be your mid-late game bomb if the equipments are destroyed or creatures are stalled.

    Additionally i think the deck is not equipment heavy enough to utilise Puresteel Paladin sufficiently. There is a total of 5 equipments here, while realistically you might only draw 2-3 with Puresteel in play, and i'm being optimistic here. Dedicating so many cards on Puresteel to potentially draw a few cards does not seem worthwhile to me.

    Puresteel Paladin is also like a prop in this deck as you will not want to attack with him nor block with him since a 2/2 without first strike is unlikely to survive combat damage and you need him around to draw cards. I think maybe metacraft for free equip is not so important here, as this looks like a mid-range deck so you should have plenty of mana available/the equip costs are low also. Perhaps you might want to remove artifact lands and add in more fetchlands so as to work with Sensei better.

    I think Neurok Hoversail is really relevant here, evasion is very important for example to get our SoFI and SoLS through to the player because many popular legacy creatures are still bigger than an equipped knight.

    Thanks for the decklist/feedback, i'll add Neurok Hoversail and Puresteel Paladin into my Primer.

    Please feel free to comment if you think there is anything wrong with my analysis on the cards in the Primer so i can make changes.

    Quote from nudnic
    What about poor mans equipment tutors like Quest for the Holy Reilc and Steelshaper's gift? These might be good here, if you don't have access to a Mystic. W search your library for a Sword on turn one might be a good play, if you don't have a Vial or a Student. Or on another turn when you can make good use of mana spend the extra to tutor.

    I'm guessing Steelshaper's Gift is probably better than Quest.


    Unfortunately Quest for the Holy Reilc and Steelshaper's gift are not good enough here, Stoneforge Mystic is a must as it can be played via Aether Vial thus uncounterable, is a 3 in 1 here(a body for blocking & equip, search equip, cheat equip into play)

    Quest for the Holy Reilc is too slow and is barely good even on the first turn for this deck, and knights dont come down as on a conveyer belt...

    There is a total of eight 1 drops with 4x Student & 4 Vial and you would play them anytime over Steelshaper's Gift.

    I appreciate your feedback but as the thread is focused on competitive knights there is no space for the card at all. I'll bear in mind your recommendations when i make another Primer on Casual Knights(more for the budget players) in future, which i intend to do so once this Primer is completed.
    Posted in: Developing (Legacy)
  • posted a message on [Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
    Quote from pqrqcf

    First Entomb, get Haakon. Second, gets Nameless Inversion. Extras get Glory for a late game push. (You need an Entomb in your opening hand, so you have to run four, but I didn't want it to be a dead topdeck late game. If anyone can think of something better in the Glory slot, let me know. ...that sounds kind of dirty. Then again, it's possible that Knight Exemplar is the best late game Entomb target. Hmmmmmmmm.)

    Cataclysm has the potential to kill in this deck, and gives you a hell of an advantage with Haakon and a Flagstones in play when you cast it. Cataclysm also means you can play less spot removal like Vindicate. Flagstones has some interaction, too, with Knight of the White Orchid, with Aether Vial set at 2.

    Cabal Therapy seems to me like the best discard for the deck. You can use it early game on your opponent. Flashback it to discard your Haakon, play Haakon, and then replay the creature you sacrificed. Inquisition of Kolizek could be played instead.

    Nameless Inversion for recurring removal, and StP backup. 3-3 split seems like the best choice to me. Knights' lack of evasion means creatures are going to be your biggest problem, so again Vindicate is outclassed by cheaper removal.

    I play DnT with a tutor board and it's pretty solid. You can board out SFM most of the time because Enlightened Tutor will take its place. It's great to have 5x copies of a the card that you need and then the next time you draw it, it can be a relevant piece of your deck instead. The Extra Haakon is to bring in vs removal that exiles. Extra Revokers to name things like Relic, Crypt, Nihil Spellbomb, Faerie Macabre, etc, to protect our graveyard G2.



    I think using Glory as the mid-game/end-game threat is effective way to break any stalemate. Moreover, we should have spare mana lying around to use the effect a few times? Entomb/Buried alive will have another relevant target later in the game.

    I'm not keen on Cataclysm as it won't be effective if your army of knights is stopped single-handily by an Ensnaring Bridge or the opponent has a Progenitus - it just doesnt destroy the intended target which is posting you problems unlike Vindicate.

    Cabal Therapy sounds good when there is 3 or 4 Haakon maindeck, the interaction with Haakon is very useful, thanks for pointing it out. And i also like your Tutor Sideboard due to its versatility against lots of different decks. The Enlightened Tutor x4 to search for solution through artifacts and enchantments reminds me very much about Mighty Quinn Deck which i have play extensively.

    On your decklist land base, i have played knights extensively and there is no way we can afford to have colorless mana over colored mana. The deck needs 4 to 5 mana to operate effectively therefore wasting an opponent's land will usually set us back more than them.

    Overall there is 15 creatures in the list(exclude Glory), so i'm not sure if there is enough creatures overall although we can recur them vial Haakon, we also may not have enough creature spells to utilise Vial to the maximum.

    That said, I have to admit your decklist seems much better than my current list, really appreciate your help and advice in the B/W build.

    Quote from VenomMoth
    Comments on the original post for the BW Build;
    It has been my experience that you want more speed with this deck.

    4 Æther Vial
    4 Entomb
    4 Student of Warfare

    * Æther Vial (This is big player to get out fast knights and get Haakon out of your hand. Another added bonus is to kill your Haakon with a second copy when targeted by RFG effects.)

    * Entomb (This card is superior to Buried Alive as it can be laid down turn one, doesn't eat up 3 man which could be a Knight drop or a vindicate, doesn't require Dark Ritual to speed it up, and can dump Nameless Inversion and/or Crib Swap. You really only need to dump Haakon or a changeling card. You're knights will be vialed in or played from your hand where they will be safe from grave hate, besides it doesn't really matter where everything but Haakon are played from as there really is no added advantaged of being in your hand or grave. Lastly, without Buried Alive you won't need Dark Ritual which doesn't support most of the cards we are using opening up 4 spots in the deck.)

    * Student of Warfare (This should be your one of your strongest Knights. Comes down turn one, after a board wipe Haakon can fill your board with a bunch of these guys to regain tempo, and with Exemplar not only does she become your beefiest knight but her level up cost profits from indestructibility.)

    * Nameless Inversion is really important IMO when using Haakon. You get to kill everything your opponent throws at you, you can even use it to kill your own guys to dodge RFG removal, and when you have a knight with toughness 4 or more (thanks to Exemplar) it can act a Giant Growth of sorts. Crib Swap should probably be sideboarded, no more than 2 main board as for 1 mana more it is better to Nameless Inversion twice than cast one Swap (most of the time).

    * Vindicate and Wasteland should be a 4 of each. Vindicate is going to be your go to card to handle what Nameless Inversion and Crib Swap do not. You'll want to knock out rival Vials, Swords, Lands, etc. While, the colorless mana of Wasteland should not hurt you much if at all since your lowest cmc is 3 even with WW/BB costs (You'll have Vials now and a bunch of one drop plays to help). You're going to want to destroy lands.

    Stillmoon Cavalier, Whether you love or hate this card is up to personal opinion. It has been my experience that this card "was" an MVP for the BW build prior to the release of Exemplar and to a lesser extent Student of Warfare. Don't get me wrong it is still a great card with protection from two colors, flying, first strike, fire breathing, and excellent casting cost. However, it seems to fall short as it competes for your 3 drop with Exemplar and Haakon. I personally always seem to find myself wanting or needing to cast/vial them over the Cavalier and any remaining mana goes into casting multiple Nameless Inversion, White Orchid, or Student of Warfare. You want to have a couple of guys on the field rather than waiting until turn 3 to drop cards. If you aren't playing both Haakon or Exemplar than it is probably worth keeping.

    Phyrexian Crusader same as above, competes for the 3 drop and doesn't really offer much to deserve a spot over other knights.

    Finally, consider Dark Confidant. While it is true that Haakon damage can stack up the most damage done in a turn would be three and you can easily negate the damage with a +1/+1 Meadowgrain. Also, while Bob isn't a knight getting to draw 2 cards a turn is going to be helpful. You can even shut Bob off with your Nameless Inversion.


    Comments on Vial - wait till the fourth turn before Haakon can comes into play? i'll still play it as i did a decktest on the Red/White Knight deck recently and tried removed 4 vials for 4 lightning bolts. The results were mainly negative and it confirmed my humble opinion that every tribal deck needs Aether Vial.

    Comments on Entomb - thanks to all for your opinions on the Entomb/Buried Alive, based on the feedback/analysis i think Entomb got the nod here. too bad i dont have the card yet, i only have 4 Buried Alive...

    Comments on Student - Previously my decklist ran Damnation/Haakon/Phyrexian Crusader which are black mana intensive spells thus i doubt i had the mana to use leveled up Student effectively. However with the removal of both Damnation/Phyrexian Crusader, Student will be look upon favourably here.

    Comments on Stillmoon Cavalier - I will run 4 here, and as it is a hybrid B/W, the same mana to pump him can be use to level up Student as well, thus I may also play Student as a result of choosing Stillmoon over Phyrexian.

    Comments on Dark Confidant - I think over here, we can either play 4x Dark Confidant and Stoneforge Toolbox. I choose Knight of the Meadowgrain as the B/W deck is quite slow and may need the additional life to setup Haakon.
    i'll decktest both combinations and post my update here.


    Quote from Rith-Shadowbane
    Not thanks to Exemplar. Inversion takes away their types, so it'll revert to a +3/-3'd nothing, which should be killing all your creatures you're playing. It hurts to have this pointed out by an opponent when you didn't mean to just off a suddenly non-Knight by mistake.



    Thanks for pointing out on "Inversion taking away the creature types", i wasn't aware although the text was written very clearly, totally overlooked it...opps...

    Quote from Cougrrr
    I actually like the idea behind Vial knights and I've been toying with some concepts online, and while I appreciate the post and the effort I think (for a permanent primer) your decks need to be far more fleshed out.

    The one of Disenchant in the board makes almost no sense to me, what was the reasoning behind it?

    Also, with the Student of Warfare in Legacy... I just don't see it getting there. You're theoretically spending full mana for your first two turns to even make him viable against something like Zoo, and he's then one mana of their's away from smoked. What you're doing then is Draw go, Draw go; seems bad.


    Thanks for the kind words. At the moment i'm still working on most decklists, with the exception of the G/W and U/W, the other 2 are still far from complete especially on the B/W which i'm short of a number of cards so i can't decktest yet.

    Disenchant will be removed soon, i playtest the U/W knights without sideboard, so i just added the card as a filler.

    Student of Warfare is good against many decks, except against Zoo or Burn when he is a sitting duck. Otherwise he is very good defense or source of early damage as a 3/3 First Strike when cast early, and is not a bad topdeck when drawn late.
    Posted in: Developing (Legacy)
  • posted a message on [Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
    Quote from pqrqcf
    Knight of the White Orchid is good with Path, but you want to play Orchid defensively to gain tempo, not as a ramp play bigger spells earlier. If you use Path, you're also helping the opponent out, and there's a good chance his late game spells are better than your late game spells.

    The opponent's life gain is less relevant if we can Nameless Inversion out more creatures than they can play (Because of wasting a lot of their land, and especially if you play Cataclysm w/Flagstones, which looks really appealing to me, considering Haakon's graveyard recursion).


    Yeah, that's right. You managed to put it across accurately on choosing Swords over Path. I realised often that the extra land given to the opponent tend to enhance their game plan thus i would rather they get extra life.

    I'm still not keen on wasteland as it is more disadvantageous for us to disrupt their land base due to the mana curve of the deck and many cards being 2cc and 3cc sorcery speed.
    Posted in: Developing (Legacy)
  • posted a message on [Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
    Good point, and thanks for pointing out the contradiction, i played StP becoz I could use it on my own creatures for much needed life. During decktesting I realized the game is usually won with very few life left due to e fetches and early damage I received while setting up e knights n stoneforge offense. The G/W & B/W decklist is not tuned to win early therefore I may need prolong my life before I can set up sufficient board position. I also do not really mind giving opponents extra life points as once I can easily overcome that once my defense n board position is set.
    Posted in: Developing (Legacy)
  • posted a message on [Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
    Quote from pqrqcf

    In your Haakon build, why not play [card[Nameless Inversion[/card]? It's a Knight card and Haakon lets you play it from the grave ad infinitum. It's probably better than Damnation in the deck.

    A lot of other card choices seem sub par. Why only run one Wasteland in the GW build? Why not run four? Why not run four in ALL of your builds? Why does the RW version run Bonesplitters instead of the Sword package? I could continue, but I think the point's been made.

    Like I said, maybe you should discuss things in the established Knights thread. =)


    Actually I didn’t know better, it didn’t occur to me I could recur him from the graveyard with Haakon in play until you pointed it out. In that case I’ll certainly play the card. I’ll probably have a combination of StP and Nameless Inversion in the BW built. Nameless Inversion other benefit would be to cast on Haakon in response to an exile spell. I’ll probably take out damnation as a result since there aren’t enough slots for so many removals.

    Because of the WW or BB in most knights’ casting cost, we cannot afford to have colorless sources of mana thus only one wasteland. We also need sufficient mana to utilize the Stoneforge toolbox thus I wouldn’t be keen to waste opponent lands unnecessary.

    I’m still testing out on the RW version and will update my findings shortly. Bonesplitter is chosen because of the speed it provides. I can frequently cast and equip on the same turn, and still have the mana to kill opponents’ Tarmogoyf via Lightning Helix with an attacking knight.


    Quote from Silex Flint
    Why does the black version not run some urborg, tomb of yawgmoth for black fixing


    I’m not keen to use any unnecessary non-basic land but what is the reason for running urborg? There are enough black mana sources with 4 Scrubland/Marsh Flats and Godless shrine while Urborg will slow our game down considerably.

    Quote from dondee
    how about hero of bladehold? he is one of the most powerful knight ever printed. IMO

    phyrexian crusader does not belong to any knight decks. because it has infect.


    Hero of bladehold only looks good on paper, and at 4cc we have other better options.

    I’m still not sure on the Phyrexian Crusader, just felt the protection from red/white it offers is very useful. Like you i agree the infect is pretty useless over here. Maybe playing more Stillmoon Cavalier is better. I'll need to playtest more to determine this.

    Quote from EnemyWithin
    In your black and white build, have you considered Entomb? I know you have Buried Alive, but Entomb costs one instead of three, and is a bit faster. Plus, you really only need to get Haakon in the graveyard, and Entomb gets that job done at 1/3 the cost Maybe you could put it in for Dark Ritual, since I'm not really sure that belongs there. You've got too many white cards for dark ritual to be useful. Also, you mentioned in the primer that you're exploring Mono White Knights in addition to multicolored knight decks, can you post your mono white decklist? That's the one I'm most interested in, since that's the deck I play.


    Yeah I thought about entomb. I’m deliberating on both and eventually settled on Buried alive as for example we could put Haakon, Stillmoon, Phyrexian etc in the graveyard via a single card. Once Haakon comes into play we can cast knights from graveyard via Haakon’s effect thus ensuring a steady supply of creatures from both hand and graveyard. This is the reason why I also play dark ritual as we can cast Stillmoon/Phyrexian in response to Haakon been removed during our turn. If opponent is playing StP/PtE we can also put 2 Haakons in the graveyard. There is decent card advantage IMO using buried alive over entomb.

    That said, I’m still not sure on dark rituals as there aren’t sufficient good black knight cards around.

    Frankly speaking I made a mistake here, what I had previously was a Mono-White Soldier deck, not the knight version which I recalled wrongly. But I’ll definitely explore the mono-white built once I completed the current decklists.

    My apologies also for creating a new thread which was somewhat similar to your Vial Knight thread which I have been following it since last year. And thank you for your feedback in this new thread.
    Posted in: Developing (Legacy)
  • posted a message on [Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
    thanks for the feedback, yeah i did mentioned i knew about the Vial Knights thread,

    My intention was to have a consolidated thread on all the possible combinations of Knight deck in all different colors rather than just having a vial knights deck, thus starting the thread. I also intend to write up a primer on the knights which was missing in the established thread.

    maybe this thread wasnt a good idea afterall.
    Posted in: Developing (Legacy)
  • posted a message on [Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
    Legacy Knights Primer/Deck



    Special thanks to Syndarion from Aeternal Studios for this awesome banner!

    [Contents]
    1) Introduction
    2) Knight-Analysis
    3) Companions/Sidekicks
    4) Artifacts/Equipments
    5) Spells
    6) Mana Base
    7) Sideboard
    8) Decklists



    1) Introduction

    Forming a Knight deck is reasonably affordable compared to other Tier one decks, efficient, and for anyone who likes Tribal knights. Knights as a tribe although lacking in synergies are better individually. There are few instances whereby you need to overcommit your board. Knights is essentially a defensive aggro deck.

    Knights casting cost is relatively cheap, and with first strike and various protection from colors this could make it a real handful to deal with. Coupled with the emergence of Stoneforge mystic, the effectiveness of the equipment swords which were formally too slow for the format has been greatly enhanced. Now with NPH we have all 5 swords with various protection, giving the typical knight protection from 3 colors. It is not a difficult combo to pull off as well, and can be a stroll to victory once a single knight has been equipped with the right color hoser.

    At the moment i have a few different built, and i'm aware there is another thread on Vial knights. This primer was created without focusing on using Vial in the deck but rather emphasied on building a reasonably-competitive deck with Knights as the main creatures and their various sidekicks as supporting cast. However upon more decktesting and discussion in the thread, my conclusion is Vial is a definite shoo-in for any Tribal decks which are creature intensive.

    Below is a link to the previous thread created by EnemyWithin which has some really good and useful discussion, you can also see how knights have evolved since Knight Exemplar was first released.
    EnemyWithin's Vial Knights Thread


    Here i'll be exploring several different versions of knight decks.

    DECKLISTS AVAILABLE:
    GW Vial Knights
    UW Vial Knights
    RW Lightning Knights
    BW Haakon's Confidant
    BW HaakonForge's Swords
    Mono-W Knights: (By EnemyWithin)
    Mono-W Mox Knights
    GW Mox Knights



    This is a surprising solid legacy deck which can win at least 50% of the games, and like other tribal decks there is potential to be even stronger with the addition of more and newer knights.


    2) Maindeck Knight-Analysis

    With so many knight creature cards in the game, as of last count at 159(before M12), i have grouped them into different categories:
    Namely:
    2.1) Elite Knights. the cream of the crop in the contingent - if you are splashing the right color this will be an auto-include
    2.2) Other Possible Maindeck Knights
    2.3) Remaining of Honorable Knights - knights who have retired and joined the hall of fame
    2.4) Playable knights who failed to make the cut into competitive

    2.1 Elite Knights the best knights in the game which should always be the choice in all Tribal knight lists




    Knight Exemplar
    The only Knight Lord. She boasts your own knights, makes them indestructable, survives Day of Judgement, Engineered Explosives, Pernicious Deed, Nevinyrral's Disk etc. Indestructability also allows us to stall board and build our forces with equipments or more knights. A pair of them means indestructability therefore a no-brainer here to include 4 in the deck.
    On the downside, she usually only make cameo appearances and is also a good magnet for opponents removal. It goes to show how good they are. Can also be use as a bait before you cast other bombs.

    Student of Warfare
    The best one-drop knight around in Legacy. A four-of is a must because there is no other better knights around in term of casting cost and ability. Good when he is in your the opening hand, decent if drawn during early game and absolutely massive when drawn during the late game.

    Knight of the White Orchid
    A 2/2 with first strike for 2cc. Being on the draw/combined with fetchlands will allow us ensure we don't miss land drop or even play an additional land for the turn. How many games have you lost because you fail to lay the third land? KotWO allows you to get out of such situations. It can also be used as a mana fixer by tutoring for dual lands which can be use straightaway for mana.

    Knight of the Reliquary
    Usually enter play as a 3/3 creature or bigger at 3cc. The land fetching will trim the deck resulting in better draws during later parts of the game and it can be a tutor for lands such as Karakas/Wasteland/Maze of Ith/Bojuka Bog. It can also tutor for Sejiri Steppe in response to save a creature from imminent destruction. She is the only potentially powerful knight as the rest are mostly considered weenies. Most importantly it is able to hold its own without the aid of equipments during mid/late game unlike the other knights.

    White Knight/ Silver Knight / Black Knight / Blood Knight
    A cheap and effective knight with built in first strike and protection from a color. Protection is especially useful when paired with one of the equipment swords. Fits the Mana curve/vial counter prefectly as a 2 drop. Should try to play 4 of them unless you are playing Knight of the White Orchid as well. Which one to use will depend on the meta, my preference is White knight due to the number of black-based removal spells in my meta.

    2.2) Other Possible Maindeck Knights Not always first choice, but usually good enough to join the contingent

    Knight of Meadowgrain
    Early lifegain from this creature might be critical against certain matchups. As a 2cc, it might draw removal from some decks thus allowing more powerful 3cc to go through later on. Lifelink also has good synergy with Knight Exemplar.

    Mirran Crusader
    Everyone plays Tarmogoyf nowadays while Black is also a very popular removal colour. Therefore protection from Black/Green is very relevant here.
    The double strike ability also trigger two times over here which means 4 Jitte counters or two cards/4 damage via SoFI and other Swords etc.

    Stillmoon Cavalier
    Protection from White and Black means many of legacy most popular removal spells are useless againt him. Has flying for evasion so he is able to bring your Swords over for direct damage. However when you have no mana available he is very weak at 2/1 and may prove to be a liability to pump him when you can put your mana to better use. Not so good when drawn early against Non-white/black opponents.



    Court Hussar
    The ponder effect is usually very timely and it works surprisingly well in stalling with a stronger toughness of 3, when equipped it can provide both defence & attack with its vigilance. One of the very few card advantage we can get from a knight.

    Haakon, Stromgald Scourge
    It has an effect allowing us to play Knight cards from the graveyard when it is in play, and as a result it also has a lot of synergy with changeling cards such as Nameless Inversion & Crib Swap since you can also play them when Haakon is in play.
    I'm still skeptical on this card because of so many white exile spells in my meta(StP & PtE), finding a way to put him into graveyard and casting him again only to be exiled from the game via a cheap spell from the opponent is a massive loss in tempo.

    Kinsbaile Cavalier
    The global effect this knight brings along is very useful and can often win the game via a single attack or swing board advantage back to your side. The fact that an opponent has a dilemma over removing Kinsbaile or Knight exemplar when both are in play is compliment on the potential of this card.
    However the downside is its 4cc, which will render our vial useless. When there is no other knight around, it is just an overcost knight.


    2.3) Rest of the best of Honorable Knights - Good maindeck knights which has seen better days...

    Knight of Stromgald/Order of Leitbur/Order of the Ebon Hand/Order of the White Shield
    Each offer either protection from black or white. But in Legacy there is usually no time nor mana for you to pump them sufficiently big enough against the likes of Tarmogoyf & Tombstalker. Their base power/toughness is not strong enough to stall the ground or set up defense. Black Knight and White Knight are now better 2cc creatures as a result of their built-in first strike.

    Stromgald Crusader/White Shield Crusader
    Both also offer either protection from black or white, but compared to the 4 knights above, these Crusaders can also fly. But again the opportunity cost of spending mana to pump them usually does not give you equal amount of benefits. It's lack of first strike and 1 toughness means it will die to almost any kind of attack/defence.

    Paladin en-Vec
    This Knight from en-Vec was formerly one of the best around, the fact that he is "retired" is testament to the improvement of the knight tribe as a whole. Anyway he has been trumped by Mirran Crusader double-strike ability all else equal. Unless your meta is red-dominant, its Mirran over en-Vec kingdom anytime.


    2.4) Playable knights who failed to make the cut into competitive



    Mirrodin Beseiged & New Phyrexia Knights

    Hero of Bladehold
    At 4cc i would rather cast Kinsbaile Cavalier, Wilt leaf Liege or Elpseth Knight Errant. It loses out as you can only use it's benefit during next turn attack phase while Kinsbaile/Wilt leaf and Elspeth are able to make an immediate impact once they hit the battlefield.
    Simply not as good as the other knights around.

    Hero of Oxid Ridge
    Knights does not attack by swarm, this card is only good when attacking in hordes. Also at 4cc, suffers the same fate as the Hero who comes from Bladehold.

    Puresteel Paladin
    This is a Knight with a rare built-in card advantage ability. However it is more suitable for equipments heavy deck which would eventually dilute the knights theme. This knight has to be played as a 4 of to maximise it's effectiveness, and typically drawing one or two extra cards per game does not justify its presence here. Because of this, at the moment he doesnt really belong to a Knight deck.

    White

    Knight of Dawn
    With enough mana available, this knight is literally a protection from all colors. But in competitive play, it is usually very difficult to keep mana free to use this specific ability. At WW, we have much better choices around as described in earlier sections.

    Knight of Sursi
    Too slow, although it has some synergy with Wrath of God or Armageddon.

    Knight of the Holy Nimbus
    Good against tempo deck especially. His built-in indestructability forces opponent to disrupt their own tempo in order to kill him. Also has synergy with Wrath of God or Armageddon, but otherwise there are better 2 drops knights around.

    Order of the Golden Cricket
    Has good interactions with Jitte and Swords since it gains evasion with flying by paying W mana when attacking.

    Sigiled Paladin
    Solid 2cc 2/2 first strike knight which is similar to White/Silver knight & Knight of the White Orchid. But protection and the ability to fetch additional land is better than exalted.

    Soltari Crusader
    Shadow literally means unblockable in most legacy matchups. On the downside it also means this creature can't block. The shadow does works well in ensuring the swords can deal player damage and its pumpable power is an added bonus also. If it was a one or two drop it might be playable but unfortunately the 3cc slot is taken by Mirran Crusader.

    Teferi's Honor Guard
    Another knight who can have valid applications with Wrath of God or Armageddon. However getting UU might not be easy with a minor U splash.

    Tivadar of Thorn
    A sideboard knight against Goblins as i would maindeck Paladin en-vec over this guy anytime.

    Zhalfirin Crusader
    Can literally kill off all your opponents critters if you have enough mana by redirecting damage to them or unless your opponent is willing to take two damage per turn. Two mana to redirect 1 damage is useful, but this ability is too cumbersome and doesnt really cut it in competitive legacy.

    Black

    Knight of Dusk
    A knight with a destructable streak. However what is stopping the opponent from taking 2 damage every turn? Otherwise a 2/2 creature at 3cc is not beefcake enough.

    Mercenary Knight
    Perfect synergy with Haakon, but what if you dont get Haakon on the same hand? Losing a card here is bad when it is not Haakon. And especially we dont usually play 4 Haakons.

    Order of Yawgmoth
    Has good evasion with Fear and also forces opponent to discards a card which is almost always relevant. Again 4cc pushes it out of contention.

    Phyrexian Crusader
    First strike and also has protection against 2 colors. In the Zoo/Boros matchup, casting this creature is as good as a win. Otherwise the Infect portion has Zero synergy with the rest of the knight deck. Due to Infect inrelevance in Knights, it is quite difficult to argue for its inclusion here.

    Blue

    Knight of the Mists
    Has a destroy target knight ability when it enters the battlefield unless Uis paid. He can also kill off an opposing KotR.
    However unless Zoo & Knights become as popular as Merfolk otherwise the ability is vanilla.

    Multi-Colored & Hybrid Knights

    Skyknight Legionnaire
    Flying and haste provides a sneak attack which is usually good enough to enable Jitte counters or the equipped Swords effect.

    Thistledown Liege, Ashenmoor Liege, Glen Elendra Liege
    These Hybrid knights looks cool but due to the same reason as Wilt-Leaf Liege below, it is not even splashable when in the right color. They also do not have sufficient knight creatures in the right hybrid color to justify playing them.

    Wilt-Leaf Liege
    The only reason this guy isn't played is because Knight Exemplar is a cheaper & better lord and at 4cc, you are better off playing a planeswalker or Kinsbaile Cavalier. There simply isnt enought 4cc slots left in the deck. However, it gives +2/+2 to multi-colored/hybrid GW knights such as Knight of Reliquary and the rest below:

    Knight of New Alara
    It's special effect of giving +1/+1 is quite useless and unplayable and is only good with hybrid/multicolored cards. Too linear in my opinion to be playable in mainstream decks. Also at 4cc it is too costly.

    Knotvine Paladin
    Knights do not attack in hordes, so the idea of a single and massive Knotvine Paladin attacking is not a far-fetched idea. With either one of Knight of the New Alara or Wilt-Leaf Liege in play, this guy is at least a potential 5/5 attacker at 2cc.

    Steward of Valeron
    Mana acceleration is always good.

    Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers
    A very good defensive knight. And nothing else.


    3) Companions/sidekicks for Knights
    - knights on their own can't make a kingdom, here is some creatures worthy enough to be their able sidekicks

    Stoneforge Mystic
    One of the best W creature in the game who is an equipment tutor and allows you to cheat equipments into play during your opponents' turn; and we haven't even talk about it been uncounterable via Stoneforge ability to put into play. Tutoring for a Batterskull almost ensure your stoneforge will eat up a removal spell thus clearing the way for Knight Exemplar and Knight of the Reliquary to come down safely.
    Best play= EOT Vial in Stoneforge, get ready to cheat equipment into play the following turn, equip and swing FTW!

    Qasali Pridemage
    Provides the answer to artifact/enchantments for GW Knights. Exalted as a bonus which makes a knight with first strike even harder to kill.

    Duergar Hedge-Mage
    Provides the answer to artifact/enchantments for RW Knights. It might forces us to include more R in our manabase but it often turns into at least a 2 for 1 advantage and on occasions even 3 for 1.

    Leonin Relic-Warder
    Provides the answer to artifact/enchantments for Mono W Knights.

    Dark Confidant
    Provides card advantage for Knights splashing B. Playing Knight of Meadowgrain together with Confidant is a good way to mitigate the self-inflicted damage.

    Tidehollow Sculler
    Removal of threats before they are cast for Knights splashing B.

    Mother of Runes
    The most irritating creature ever as once active it forces your opponent to use at least 2 removal spells to take her out. Usually I prefer to soak up player damage and will only activate Mom's ability in response to removal spells.
    Always protect your mum so our Knight Exemplar can stay on board to provide indestructability to other knights.

    Phyrexian Metamorph
    Our mainboard anti-Emrakul, the Aeons Torn & Progenitus card. Also has the versatility to copy another equipment or artifact. Next, it can also be the 5th Exemplar to give indestructability to all knights.
    Feel free to vial it in anytime for the surprise element or to evade counters.



    4)Artifacts/Equipments & Planeswalkers - The knights will also carefully enlist or utilise planeswalker/artifacts/equipments available to bolster their prowess.

    4.1 Artifacts

    AEther Vial
    Every Tribal deck must play this. Creatures put into play is uncounterable thus a bane of all control/countertop decks. Vialing in a creature during the opponent end turn can also usually result in an sneak attack next turn, better still if there is equipment to equip and attack with.
    Vialing in Knight Exemplar is also usually a nice trick to save your creatures from destruction.
    Haakon can also be put into play via Vial thus removing the headache of getting it into the graveyard if it is on your opening hand.
    Vial also has very nice interaction with Stoneforge Mystic.
    The optimal number of creatures in a deck to utilise Vial is usually 18 creatures or more. You dont want to have Vial with counters on it but no creatures to flash into play.

    4.2 Equipments




    Umezawa's Jitte
    Without a doubt the best equipment ever printed. Cheap to cast, cheap to equip & insane ability. Jitte is the key to winning any Tribal War, or any War...

    Sword of Fire and Ice
    The second best equipment for me. Gives card advantage and protection against burn/merfolk. A very good equipment to have especially in the early game therefore should usually be the first few equipments to fetch.

    Sword of Light and Shadow
    The Third best equipment in my opinion. Card advantage as you can fill your hand with killed creatures from your graveyard. The lifegain is also useful during mid-late game when opponents are trying to hit you with small flyers or burn spells. A equipment more suitable during the mid-late game.

    Sword of Body and Mind
    It is in my sideboard against opponents playing Jace 2.0 or Tarmogoyf because Jace cannot bounce the creature it is equipped with and a equipped Swords on our Knight is only +2/+2 so they are still not strong enough to kill Tarmogoyf most of the time. However SoBM can help in stalling the board by creating Wolf tokens. With most predominantly blue decks splashing green for Goyf the sword is a good sideboard choice.

    Sword of Feast and Famine
    Sideboard material since the the best 3 equipments have already taken up the available slots. The untap ability is not really relevant most of the time, and discarding a card is not a big deal either.

    Sword of War and Peace
    Unlikely to be able to dislodge the existing maindeck equipments. Might make the sideboard though.

    Bonesplitter
    Makes a Knight very strong during combat due to its +2 power to a already first strike creature. Only requires 1 mana to cast and equip.

    Neurok Hoversail
    A relevant equipment here, evasion is very important for example to get our SoFI and SoLS through to the player because many popular legacy creatures are still bigger than an equipped knight. However at the moment there isnt space for this in the deck and we have Elspeth Knight Errant to bypass Moat.

    Batterskull
    Fetching this equipment via Stoneforge Msytic is akin to telling the opponent to expend their removal spell on Stoneforge if they do not want to face a 4/4 lifelink & vigilance creature next turn. Pulling this out when the game stalls is a massive advantage which usually result in a win. Only issue here is getting 5 mana to hardcast him as the mana curve is quite tight over here.

    Basilisk Collar
    Deathtouch on our first strike knights will kill any opposing creature which dare to enage in combat with us. However IMO the real use for this equipment is actually for defense. A 2/2 knight equipped with the collar can block and kill a fattie without trading himself. This in turn will allow us the time to built our board with more Exemplars or equipments.


    4.3 Planeswalkers



    Elspeth, Knight-Errant
    Give our Knights evasion and pump +3/+3 ability, produce 1/1 Soldiers each turn to stall the board while we accumulate equipments and creatures. At 4cc, she is the bomb which can win the game for us or swing board advantage towards us.

    Elspeth Tirel
    I wouldnt play this because the Knight-Errant abilities is more relevant to the deck while this also cost more to cast.



    5)Spells

    5.1 Relevant for all Knights Variants

    Swords to Plowshares
    The best unconditional removal in the game for white. The downside of giving an opponent extra life can be use on yourself as well, and may punish an opponent who over-commit in ending the game.

    Path to Exile
    The next best unconditional removal in the game for white. The downside of giving opponent an extra land can be use on yourself as well, helping to get you out of a sticky situation if mana-screwed. Has nice synergy with Knight of the White Orchid.

    5.2 For Knights deck with Blue Splash

    Ancestral Vision
    The synergy between this card and Aether Vial/Remand and Chain of Vapor is amazing. While this card is in suspend, we can easily delay & disrupt opponents by bouncing and countering spells back to their hand.
    The mana curve between these 3 cards is also perfect:
    First turn= Suspend Ancestral Vision (4 time counters)
    Second turn= Ancestral Vision (3 time counters), Cast Chain of Vapor(your opponent cannot even sacrifice his land because your only nonland permanent is in suspend!), then play Aether Vial.
    Third Turn= Ancestral Vision (2 time counters), Aether Vial (1 counter), leave mana available to Remand your opponent spells a.k.a Time Walk.
    Fourth Turn= Ancestral Vision (1 time counter), get ready to countdown and draw 3 additional cards next turn while continuing to cheat creatures in.
    Even if you do not have this card in your opening hand, being about to cast it on the 2nd-3rd turn is also very useful. I'm frequently able to draw a timely Swords to Plowshares and Chain of Vapor to remove/bounce threats in time.

    Chain of Vapor
    The utility card here which can bounce any nonland permanent including Planeswalkers or meddlesome artifacts/enchantments such as Pitching needle, Moat, Ensnaring Bridge which is locking down the board etc. This is a very under-rated card in the knight deck. I have even used it before to save my Knight Exemplar or re-cast Court Hussar for the ponder effect.

    Remand
    Casting Remand at times feels like a Time Walk. The extra card from cantrip would have effectively set your opponent back by a turn.
    It works even better especially when you have Aether Vial gaining counters & Ancestral Vision removing counters.

    5.3 For Knights deck with Black Splash



    Nameless Inversion
    It can be used on our own creature to pump it's power but dont forget the creature will loses creature types thus losing Knight Exemplar bonus. Will also be useful in removing weenies or our own Dark Confidant when we can no longer handle the life-loss. It can also be played Ad infinitum with Haakon in play. However on the downside,this spell is unlikely kill most opposing big critters.

    Crib Swap
    Like Nameless Inversion, only that this is a better and more clear-cut removal. The reason this Wcard is here is also because it can be played Ad infinitum with Haakon in play.

    Buried Alive
    One of the ways to get Haakon into the graveyard. More knights creatures can also be thrown into the graveyard to better utilise Haakon ability when he eventually comes into play.

    Entomb
    The cheapest and fastest way to get Haakon into the graveyard.

    Vindicate
    Utility card to remove any type of permanent in play. One of the best removal spells in the game and should be played when the colour is right. Dodges the increasingly popular Spell Snare and Mental Misstep which is a plus point although 3cc removal at sorcery speed is considered slow.

    5.4 Red - For Knights deck with Red Splash

    Chain Lightning
    The next best bolt. If you wishes to include more than 4 Bolts, this card will be one of the main choices. In legacy the chain effect is also unlikely to be replicated.

    Lightning Bolt
    Best direct-damage spell in the game.

    Lightning Helix
    Very efficient spell, 3 damage and 3 life for a 2cc card.



    6)Manabase

    Dual lands:
    Plateau
    Savannah
    Scrubland
    Tundra

    Fetchlands:
    Arid Mesa
    Flooded Strand
    Marsh Flats
    Windswept Heath

    Shocklands:
    Godless Shrine
    Sacred Foundry

    Flagstones of Trokair
    Tend to hurt your own tempo if struck with 2 of them in the earlier turns. For this reason i'm not sold on it. Does deck thinning and is a good fetch to make Knight of the Reliquary bigger.

    Horizon Canopy
    Good card drawing advantage. Good synergy with Knight of the Reliquary.

    Mutavault
    An additional creature may be crucial for us though at the expense of destablising our mana base/wasteland target. Also becomes an indestructable land & creature with Knight Exemplar in play.
    However because knights are color intensive, i'll play at most 2-3 pieces in order not to expose us to mana screw and hate. I'll only use them in mono-white lists as anything else will add vulnerability to the manabase.

    Wasteland
    Messes opponent's tempo and destroy lands crucial to opponents' strategy.

    Karakas
    Against reanimator/NO decks and those strategies which is reliant on legendary creatures.

    Sejiri Steppe
    A good trick with Knight of the Reliquary in response to a removal spell to save our creature. Can also be use to sneak in an unblockable creature.



    7)Sideboard

    7.1 Artifact & White - Relevant for all Knights Variants


    Pithing Needle/ Phyrexian Revoker

    Added to stop Planeswalker abilities, engineered explosives etc.

    Relic of Progenitus / Tormod's Crypt
    Against Dredge or decks reliant on getting cards into graveyard.

    Aura of Silence
    Against opponents heavy on artifacts and enchantments.

    Enlightened Tutor
    Enables an artifact/enchantment toolbox against all threats.

    Ethersworn Canonist
    Good against Combo.

    Grand Abolisher
    Hoses counterspell decks.

    Leyline of Sanctity
    Against burn and discard.

    Oblivion Ring
    Best utility spell for White in Modern, take care of all non-land permanents in the game.

    Orim's Chant
    Included 4 ofs for Storm decks.

    Retribution of the Meek
    Always relevant, i always play 4 because it is the only chance you have against Progenitus & Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. It is cheaper than Wrath of God/ Day of Judgement and it seldom kill your own creatures.

    Serenity
    A very good sideboard card against Stax and Affinity.

    Surgical Extraction
    Take out opponents key spells after they have been cast before.

    7.2 Green - For Knights deck with Green Splash


    Gaddock Teeg
    Played against combo with a body to boot.

    Krosan Grip
    Against counterbalance or Affinity.

    7.3 Blue - For Knights deck with Blue Splash


    Chain of Vapor
    Utility card to handle threats by bouncing them back to their hands, or to save your own vital non-permanents from destruction.
    Also good with messing opponents tempo in the early game.

    7.4 Red - For Knights deck with Red Splash


    Price of progress
    Some massive direct damage which do not hurt us as badly.

    7.5 Black - For Knights deck with Black Splash


    Extirpate
    Take out opponents key spells after they have been cast before.

    Nihil Spellbomb
    For graveyard hate with card advantage as a bonus.


    8)Decklist

    The Green/White knights had been played in a couple of tournaments recently while the blue/white was played casually with varying successes. I have included links and results to the tournaments below based on the GW built. This built has actually been played before by legendofzadeh last year so its not totally my creation.

    My decks are usually equipped to deal with all type of various threats so below is my maindeck utility cards:
    GW Knights = Qasali Pridemage x 3 (artifact or enchantment removal with a body + exalted), uncounterable if put into play via Vial
    UWKnights = Chain of Vapor x 3 (bounce any permanent which cant be handled)
    RWKnights = Duergar Hedge-Mage x 3 (artifact and enchantment removal with a body) uncounterable if put into play via Vial

    Green & White Legacy Knights, Vial Knights - Origins from legendofzadeh


    Decklist analysis

    Why not more than 1 wastelands?
    The optimal mana availability will be WWG by the 3rd turn, including 4 wastelands will screw up the mana as we need the WW to get going. Wasteland is not there to mess with opponent tempo as we are also running on a tight mana curve, 1 Wasteland is there to due with Maze of Ith or other problematic lands.

    Why only two savannahs?
    The mana consumption in this decklist is intensive due to the stoneforge toolbox and Student of warfare so we cannot afford to have a dual land wasted in the earlier turns.

    Why no Mirran Crusader in the list?
    3cc makes for a slightly uneven mana curve. Knight Exemplar & KotR has taken up the main deck slots thus we cannot afford to have additional 3cc creatures.

    Matchup in percentages:

    Merfolk W-L @ 80%-20%
    No Bant W-L @ 50%-50%
    Dark Horizons W-L @ 30%-70%
    Goblins W-L @ 90%-10%
    White Stax W-L @ 40%-60%
    Zoo W-L @ 35%-65%
    Sneak Attack W-L @ 50%-50%
    Show & Tell W-L @ 10%-90%
    Rock W-L @ 40%-60%
    CounterTop W-L @ 60%-40%




    Matchup in percentages:

    Zoo W-L @ 40%-60%
    Team America W-L @ 40%-60%
    RUGTempo W-L @ 40%-60%
    UW stoneforge W-L @ 60%-40%
    Bant @ 70%-30%




    Matchups update:

    UWB Snapcaster Control
    Mono R Goblins W-L @ 90%-10% (20+ games)
    BR Goblins W-L @ 80%-20% (Several games)
    GR Goblins W-L @ 80%-20% (20+ games)
    Team America W-L @ 40%-60% (few games)
    UW Stoneblade W-L @ 60%-40% (few games)
    Bant @ 70%-30% (few games)
    GW W-L @ 40%-60% (several games)
    Mono W Death and Taxes W-L @ 65%-35% (10+ games)
    Dredge @ 10-90% (few games)
    Storm @ 0-100% (few games)


    Blue & White Legacy Knights, Vial Knights

    Red & White Legacy Knights, Lightning Knights


    Decklist analysis

    This deck suffers from extreme lack of power cards. The land base is also very fragile despite adding in 3 shocklands.

    Matchup in games

    Merfolk W-L @ 8-10
    Mental Misstep is the key to Merfolk getting the better of this deck. Merfolk hiding behind Aether Vial with a 1st turn Mental Misstep and Daze is unbeatable. More to come shortly.

    Zoo W-L @ 3-7
    Zoo's creatures are faster, efficient and bigger. Also has more removals. I usually die with no creatures on board but with some equipments in play occasionally. A poor matchup and one i detest playing against.


    Black & White Legacy Knights, Haakon's Confidant


    Decklist analysis

    Why no vindicate?
    Leonin Relic-Warder as the replacement.

    Matchups in percentages:

    Counter-Thropter W-L @ 80%-20%
    Managed to beat Counter-throper very easily, the only game i lost was when i was struck with 1 Plains & 1 Swamps for a few turns which was sufficient for him to setup his combo and lock. For that game Haakon was in my graveyard ready to be cast into play but it was too late.
    During our games my opponent was not impressed with Haakon saying he could Swords to Plowshares him, i promptly told him to keep his Plowshares for Haakon then.
    Most of the games were a breeze for me because Leonin Relic-Warder was able to smash him combo to pieces. A first turn Vial will also be a very easy win for me. Stillmoon & Student was a huge source of damage against his deck which often draw his removal before i cast Leonin Relic-Warder.

    Zoo W-L @ 50-50%

    Goblin W-L @ 80-20%

    Merfolk W-L @ 70-30%

    Mono-Blue Control W-L @ 40-60%


    Black & White Legacy Knights, HaakonForge's Swords

    Mono-White Legacy Knights, 7 Kingdoms - By EnemyWithin

    Mono-White Mox Knights/Green & White Mox Knights



    Deck Idea & concepts:
    Interestingly, with this deck, i always choose to be on the draw.
    Some of the consistent scenarios/plays that keep replaying itself for this deck:
    1) A first turn Mox Diamond and Tithe always get me 2 Plains with a Knight of the White Orchid coming down on turn two giving an additional untapped land and enough mana to cast Stoneforge Mystic.
    2) First turn Mother of Runes, follow up wth Knight Exemplar.
    3) First turn Stoneforge Mystic tutoring for Batterskull forcing opponents to kill SFM or face a 4/4 attacking viligance/lifelink creature on the 3rd turn. A Winner against Goblins multiple times.

    Matchups:
    Vs Zoo (around 50 games, W-L @ 40-60%)
    Zoo has too many threats - simply too many. There are some games which they just completely wipe out my board. The games i won were usually an unanswered Batterskull or a MoR protecting Exemplar or Exemplar x2. An interesting fact i realised during the matches - It is more important to save your MoR then Exemplar against Zoo. Basically anything can die against Zoo except MoR & Batterskull.

    Vs Vial Goblins (around 20 games W-L @ 80-20%)
    A very favourable matchup for us, this decklist owns goblin completely. A stoneforge with batterskull/SoFI defeats the deck handily. Goblin Piledriver always die to one of the first strike knights and the deck is able to handle Goblins' speed. Goblins land disruption package is also unable to work due to Mox Diamond and Tithe providing consistant land drop. The only few games lost was a turn one lackey(backed with removal for against my one drop) and which i also didnt have Plowshares.

    Vs B/W deadguy (around 10 games W-L @ 100%)
    Whenever MoR comes on board the game is as good as over as they do not have enough creature removal spells. Their disruption spells is unable to work as Tithe refill lands and Mox Diamond provides speed and SFM provides CA. StP or PtE on their Tidehollow Sculler returning the card it captures usually turn the game around. A very easy matchup for this deck.




    Overview of Mox Knights V2:
    1) Added G for KotR.
    2) Changed Wasteland for Mutavault.
    3) 4x KotR replaced 3x Mirran Crusader and 1 Elspeth, Knight Errant.

    Matchups:
    Vs Zoo (around 20 games, W-L @ 40-60%)
    Once again, Zoo simply has too many removals. Contrary to popular belief, the pro-green protection from Mirran Crusader does not make a difference against zoo therefore choosing KotR over Mirran Crusader does not worsen our matchup. I have heard many comments saying Mirran is a good blocker against Nacatal & Goyf but when Zoo has at least 10 RW removals and Grim Lavamancer, KotR is a better choice as it is tougher to remove. The results is similar to the Mono-white version, but once Zoo used up their Path to Exile our chances improved considerably as KoTR is not within Bolt/Helix or Lavamancer range and is able to stand up to their Goyf.

    Vs Vial Goblins (around 10 games W-L @ 90-10%)
    A stoneforge with batterskull defeats Goblins handily. We can also count on a resolved Mom, Sword of Fire & Ice etc - there is so many ways to beat Goblins. I love this matchup. In most games despite Goblins speed - I was seldom reduced to less than 10 life total.

    Vs UW Stoneblade with Mental Misstep (around 10 games W-L @ 70-30%)
    Most of the games were epic, and usually turned into a battle of batterskulls. However SoFI & SoLS was usually key in defeating them. The speed we generate with Tithe & Mox Diamond usually allows us to gain a foothold before they could settle down. With KotR/MoR and Knight Exemplar all "must remove" for Stoneblade, they are usually reduced to stalling with Batterskull before we eventually overwhelm them with our creatures or swords.

    Vs Deck with Aluren/FOW & Imperial Recruiter (around 6-7 games @ 50-50%)
    Against a combo deck, Knights were basically racing against the clock to beat him. Any game which goes beyond the 4-5 turns is an auto-win for me, while I did managed to win on turn 5 for one of the game if I remembered correctly.



    Posted in: Developing (Legacy)
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