I am Cavernless for a year. Sold it and never ever in tourneys felt I needed it. Even against chalice, I have not felt the need since I usually go down in number of 1 drops and add rec sage. I think the need for more color is better than caverns, especially gb and with spell sideboards.
I apologize for the late reply. I have been traveling and have finally settled down back home (for a month) in my wife’s parents’ lovely home in Minnesota.
I do indeed have three ts and four tks. I side them in against control, spell combos, sfaepshift and tron. TKS, I bring in against burn as well. I don’t bring them in against Aggro, midrange or creature decks since most creature decks(aka humans) I can beat without much trouble.
Honestly, it’s my “twist” that transforms my deck after sideboard and often times, it’s the surprise that gets the opponent as much as the card themselves.
You pose a conundrum that I don’t have an answer to. I am fully positive about the GW build and yes, I have tried it. I think GW is as good as GB and it depends on the meta, time and pilot to determine which is better in a given situation. I myself have had a hard time with Chord versions in general and thus, prefer the Lead version, but that is not to say Chord versions are worse. Syreal94, one of the co-authors for this new thread will be quick to tout the necessity and power of Chord. As for GW, I think you won’t have any more of an easy time against control, but rather, will experience an increase of “oops, I won” situations where an opponent will not have the right removal for your combo.
My answer for control in GB lies in my four copies of Thought Knot Seers. I gave an extensive defense of them in the old thread, so I will not repeat it here, but in general, it is a power house against control and slower combo and burn. Our mana base naturally lends to adding it and being a Lead version gives me ample opportunity to find them. It has worked for me fairly well, but I think that comes from extensive experience in timing Thoughtseizes and dropping TKS. In essence, I have a transformational sideboard that hedges against control since I am in Japan where a lot of pilots prefer control. It could also be my Japanese blood that pumps through my veins that itches for a nitch solution to complex problems. To say that is Japanese is true. All you have to do is look at the Japanese pros and what they bring for Pro Tours lol. There is a Japanese word for it, “Kodawari.” But, I digress.
In essence, I think playing what you believe is a good version (assuming it is a good archetype) and coming up with your own solution is better than following the crowd and playing the next “successful” MTGGOldfish deck. I really do believe the modern format mantra of “know your deck more than play the best deck.”
Good observations. The meta, especially the Jeskai, makes me think that Clancaller could be in good contention with Visionary. The discussion on Chord vs Lead has been had quite extensively in the old thread. My conclusion was that GB Elves leans more towards Lead than Chord (adjusting the sideboard). In short, GB requires a mass of creatures to effectively hit with Shaman and GW requires the right pieces (Archrduid or combo for the mana, Ezuri for the pump). I have played both chord and Lead for GB (my SCG IQ Top 8 was lead, Japanese Monthly Modern Masters top 4 was Chord), but I lean towards lead. After much discussion, though, I am not convinced it is universally true, but rather, simply matter of taste. There is a whole color spectrum in-between like two chords and one lead and two leads and one chord.
You bring up good points, but "The main win con is ezuri, and attacking with a bunch of trample elves" is not true at all. I have been playing Shaman Elves since its release and been an advocate of it, but plan A for GB is Shaman, not Ezuri. That is why most GB lists drop Ezuri down to 2 and experiment with Lead. I have been on Lead Shaman forever and win much more often with Shaman than Ezuri.
Sideboard consistency is a good point. I do believe that the two mana elves gives a merfold-like approach, not a carbon copy. The two are different decks, yes, but the two mana lord gives us that angle as well. This was debated adnauseum when Shaman was spoiled. People thought it was clunky, but it gave us a "new angle." This lord may do the same.
You should goldfish with the 6 mana thing. Its really do-able. Turn 1 mana dork, turn two Hertiage and another one mana dork, drop two mana lord. turn three, you can activate :D. That scenario enough times, btw. Also, Archrduid can make six mana very easily. Obviously, if we have lead or other things to cast, we would prioritize that. But, if we have nothing, we have this mana sink.
I think I may be on the “Clancaller is powerful for GB” train. I have been fooling around, but this may be exactly what we needed. Reasons as follows.
1) GB’s strategy is to chip away at the enemy until Shaman becomes lethal. Not necessarily combo out (dropping the necessity of needing key pieces like GW needs).
2) Having 8 lords instead of 4 makes each of our creatures very scary, especially Nettle Sentinel. With this Lord, out Nettles becomes non-flying Delver of Secrets on turn 2.
3) Visionary is our weakest link. How? Because, it doesn’t aid too much in our strategy. I am on Lead Elves and so the “advantage” is not what I am looking for. Best case scenario with Visionary is drawing a company. That is only 4 hits and the rest of the hits are sub par.
By adding more punch in our deck, we can push damage through. No evasion? Not a problem. That is why we have shamans so we don’t need to evade. And do note that 6 mana is not a lot for us. We can easily get to that amount for our card advantage with this lady. This lady makes us very similar to Merfolk, except we don’t have to play vial and naturally run company.
Just dropping a note. I have begun testing SLC. I’m testing it in a UGc shell with twenty lands. Hope that that piques your interest for my full update.
Let’s just say, it is very very interesting. But, the full report will come once it has been through a couple of small tourneys.
Interesting discussion on the new Elf guys. You guys are doing great, but let’s remember to continue to be civil about the discussion.
If I may weigh in, I think it has interesting things going for it. Yes, I do believe the lack of synergy is disappointing. I think Elves only survives on synergy (think success of GW) and not having any except for an occasional buff is critical. However, the stats themselves can warrant some outside-of-the-box thinking. 5/4 does evade Anger of the Gods (usually our arch nemesis) and stops most Eldrazi by itself.
Basically, I think it would replace Shaman. The direction of the deck will go away from BG to something like RG stompy in which this new elf can be cast off of a cascade like some of you mentioned. Is it better than BG? Testing will tell, but that is the most natural transition.
I think to try and keep all of the three drops, Shaman, Ezuri, Archdruid while trying to fit this in is impossible. I don’t see Ezuri and Archdruid going anywhere, so Shaman is the only logical replacement. Perhaps the success of the June Elves gives some players a shell to work this new guy in while smoothing out the mana. This does open up some possibilities for Blood Moon in the sideboard as well.
All I can say is, I have been a proponent of new tech since the beginning. Syreal reminded me of that when I was more skeptical of Bloodbraid Elf. So, I think we should, at least, test this guy to see if we can come up with something cool.
Interesting choice of cards. I see the strength of trapper but it weakens BBE and Coco hits by having that instead of visionaries. Aside from this Visionaries is MUCH more important in Jund because it doesn't run canopies for draw power.
2 Forest is also very risky against decks that runs Path or Blood Moon.
This is true. However, one of trapper doesn’t seem bad. I have run a ninth mana dork in my list for a while (for GB). I think ramping up to mana 4 becomes so vital, that hedging in the direction of “missed” BBE is not a bad thing.
Wow, I am genuinely sad. I will always reflect on the great days of contributing to the Modern Elves forum. Man, some amazing people on here. Please please let us know what your new site will be and also how we can contribute to it. It’s hard to let such a jewel go.
Oops, sorry I didn’t clarify, but this is not my list. I just found it.
I had a hunch, but my confidence is growing in this card.
I apologize for the late reply. I have been traveling and have finally settled down back home (for a month) in my wife’s parents’ lovely home in Minnesota.
I do indeed have three ts and four tks. I side them in against control, spell combos, sfaepshift and tron. TKS, I bring in against burn as well. I don’t bring them in against Aggro, midrange or creature decks since most creature decks(aka humans) I can beat without much trouble.
Honestly, it’s my “twist” that transforms my deck after sideboard and often times, it’s the surprise that gets the opponent as much as the card themselves.
Let me know if you want a deck list.
You pose a conundrum that I don’t have an answer to. I am fully positive about the GW build and yes, I have tried it. I think GW is as good as GB and it depends on the meta, time and pilot to determine which is better in a given situation. I myself have had a hard time with Chord versions in general and thus, prefer the Lead version, but that is not to say Chord versions are worse. Syreal94, one of the co-authors for this new thread will be quick to tout the necessity and power of Chord. As for GW, I think you won’t have any more of an easy time against control, but rather, will experience an increase of “oops, I won” situations where an opponent will not have the right removal for your combo.
My answer for control in GB lies in my four copies of Thought Knot Seers. I gave an extensive defense of them in the old thread, so I will not repeat it here, but in general, it is a power house against control and slower combo and burn. Our mana base naturally lends to adding it and being a Lead version gives me ample opportunity to find them. It has worked for me fairly well, but I think that comes from extensive experience in timing Thoughtseizes and dropping TKS. In essence, I have a transformational sideboard that hedges against control since I am in Japan where a lot of pilots prefer control. It could also be my Japanese blood that pumps through my veins that itches for a nitch solution to complex problems. To say that is Japanese is true. All you have to do is look at the Japanese pros and what they bring for Pro Tours lol. There is a Japanese word for it, “Kodawari.” But, I digress.
In essence, I think playing what you believe is a good version (assuming it is a good archetype) and coming up with your own solution is better than following the crowd and playing the next “successful” MTGGOldfish deck. I really do believe the modern format mantra of “know your deck more than play the best deck.”
I apologize if I wasn’t very helpful.
Sideboard consistency is a good point. I do believe that the two mana elves gives a merfold-like approach, not a carbon copy. The two are different decks, yes, but the two mana lord gives us that angle as well. This was debated adnauseum when Shaman was spoiled. People thought it was clunky, but it gave us a "new angle." This lord may do the same.
You should goldfish with the 6 mana thing. Its really do-able. Turn 1 mana dork, turn two Hertiage and another one mana dork, drop two mana lord. turn three, you can activate :D. That scenario enough times, btw. Also, Archrduid can make six mana very easily. Obviously, if we have lead or other things to cast, we would prioritize that. But, if we have nothing, we have this mana sink.
Good discussion, keep it coming.
1) GB’s strategy is to chip away at the enemy until Shaman becomes lethal. Not necessarily combo out (dropping the necessity of needing key pieces like GW needs).
2) Having 8 lords instead of 4 makes each of our creatures very scary, especially Nettle Sentinel. With this Lord, out Nettles becomes non-flying Delver of Secrets on turn 2.
3) Visionary is our weakest link. How? Because, it doesn’t aid too much in our strategy. I am on Lead Elves and so the “advantage” is not what I am looking for. Best case scenario with Visionary is drawing a company. That is only 4 hits and the rest of the hits are sub par.
By adding more punch in our deck, we can push damage through. No evasion? Not a problem. That is why we have shamans so we don’t need to evade. And do note that 6 mana is not a lot for us. We can easily get to that amount for our card advantage with this lady. This lady makes us very similar to Merfolk, except we don’t have to play vial and naturally run company.
My 2 cents. I will be buying 4 foil copies.
Let’s just say, it is very very interesting. But, the full report will come once it has been through a couple of small tourneys.
If I may weigh in, I think it has interesting things going for it. Yes, I do believe the lack of synergy is disappointing. I think Elves only survives on synergy (think success of GW) and not having any except for an occasional buff is critical. However, the stats themselves can warrant some outside-of-the-box thinking. 5/4 does evade Anger of the Gods (usually our arch nemesis) and stops most Eldrazi by itself.
Basically, I think it would replace Shaman. The direction of the deck will go away from BG to something like RG stompy in which this new elf can be cast off of a cascade like some of you mentioned. Is it better than BG? Testing will tell, but that is the most natural transition.
I think to try and keep all of the three drops, Shaman, Ezuri, Archdruid while trying to fit this in is impossible. I don’t see Ezuri and Archdruid going anywhere, so Shaman is the only logical replacement. Perhaps the success of the June Elves gives some players a shell to work this new guy in while smoothing out the mana. This does open up some possibilities for Blood Moon in the sideboard as well.
All I can say is, I have been a proponent of new tech since the beginning. Syreal reminded me of that when I was more skeptical of Bloodbraid Elf. So, I think we should, at least, test this guy to see if we can come up with something cool.
I know I will.
This is true. However, one of trapper doesn’t seem bad. I have run a ninth mana dork in my list for a while (for GB). I think ramping up to mana 4 becomes so vital, that hedging in the direction of “missed” BBE is not a bad thing.