You're absolutely right. Any GB veteran such as yourself knows that a noncreature sb has been the norm. What I said was directed to amni92.
TS: I think the 4th TS is more important now than before with the replacement of Chord for BBE. BBE being able to cascade into noncreature spells like TS could be life or death in an open meta where you could potentially play against combo.
Also BBE into Collective Brutality is a missed opportunity I think we should take advantage of.
Actually, that is a very interesting point. Turn 3/4 TS into BBE could be very powerful. Stripping their sweeper than BBE for the mass amount of damage (against control/Jace) is a sweet place to be.
I think BBE Jund Elves could really be good against grindy decks as predicted. That will give us some sideboard room to hedge against combo, quick creature decks. BBE being in the deck naturally makes our strategy more grindy and thus, having potent answers to combo/tron in sideboard could go a long way. I do like this direction, it is interesting.
So far I've casted Domri 3 times and it's been amazing all 3 of them, drawing cards, killing creatures and making our opponent spend resources managing it.
I've added 2 Elves of Deep Shadow in place of 2 Nettle sentinel since our explosiveness potential is already lower because we play several cards that can't be casted with only 3 green mana and it provides black mana for our powerful SB cards. I'm thinking about cutting 1 Ezuri (going down to 2) and play a 2nd Domri because I'm loving it.
Thoughts on this forgotten planeswalker?
On the other hand. I've always loved the idea of a creature based toolbox and that's out the ecuation for obvious reasons if we go chord-less. So what's the base of a GOOD elf sideboard with the jund composition?
I'm with Syreal94 on this one. I like Domri in our deck but Jund just cannot afford the space IMHO. For GRx it would make sense because by not having Shamans it has much more room and flexibility in both the MB and SB. The Naya list I posted intrigues me for this reason of space and flexibility - also Kessig Wolf Run is Nuts. I think there's still room for innovation with GRx builds and that's pretty exciting.
I also agree with Syreal94 on GBx builds relying primarily on a noncreature sb. The Jund list I posted has a version of what I think is most optimal to have a fighting chance in an open meta. For metas that I'm familiar with I would obviously try to adapt my sb.
GB relying on non-creatures have been the norm forever. When I play GB, I rarely rely on creature bullets unless warranted. TS x3 is basic, I believe, and that leans us more towards spells. At least, that’s how i’ve Played the last two and a half years.
Haha! Very good point, I admit defeat. I am all for innovation and considering that my current iteration of Elves is BUG, I think you are right in saying I should hold my judgement on it for now and go back to my original self of loving innovation. The only issue I have had is the tri-color thing, so perhaps, I will simply try it out first.
With that, I will go order a Stomping Grounds with the points I have accumulated on Yahoo Auction Japan...
I’m not too sure about BBE. It is hard to combo (heritage Druid) with it since we need to keep a red/black up. It disrupts our flow and make it difficult to cast sideboard cards. I’m thinking just straight up GB with Lead since meta will shift towards sweeper, Jace lists. I’m actually trying Lead(for value) and Fauna Shaman (getting bullets or extra shaman of the pack) in replacement for visionaries (my opinion as the weakest link). Been working so far.
PS I also think getting up to 4 mana consistently with only 18 sources may be difficult
With this new Jace unbanning, I think BG becomes the Goto list. I am biased since I’ve been playing BG forever, but TS becomes so attractive post board. Also, I think the linear decks will be more focus on beating Jace/control,rather than creature decks like us. Finally, I don’t think BBE is necessary, but we can go Lead style deck for value and speed. Lead can win turn 4 (only half a tempo slower) and will overwhelm Jace decks.
Again, all my wins have been in BG, so I am biased. But it certainly is promising.
I’m almost thinking replacing CoCo with BBE? That will keep the mana cost in check and increase creature count. BBE into Lead the Stampede is sexy. Lead will hit even more too, since CoCo becomes creatures. Jund Lead Elves anyone?
Am I overvaluing self-less spirit and forgetenders abilities to much?
(I'm posting on my phone so theres gonna be two posts addressing some quotes)
Yes. They are almost always overvalued because they're tricky and "loud". They always leave an impression on you because they always have huge, game changing effects (but we conveniently forget the games that they do nothing).
Post board against most decks you want Selfless Spirit and BFT, you don't have Chord in the list anymore anyway! So you lose the element of surprise that makes these cards good (and it encourages bad habits; ie: Coco in resp to a wipe to hit Selfless)
All in all, I think they're definitely overvalued.
I strongly agree with this position. In a value game, you have to take out chords to win the attrition war and spirit forces you to leave them in. I think grindy games should be fought with grindy cards like lead, finks and in my case nissa. Green is pretty good at gaining advantages, so we need to fight with that angle.
Thanks so much for the congratulations! My little elf is healthy and is quite the voracious eater.
@MarcWizard
Actually, she is my third. I have one mini elf girl, one boy elf and our tiny one that came last week. Busy life, but worth every bit of it.
@Syreal94
I do hope they all play Elves. But, I have a soft spot for Fish, so I am not too worried if she goes fish. As far as names go, my eldest is Sakura (Cherry Blossom) middle boy is Koyo (Crimson Leaves) so they look to be good for tapping for forest mana. Natsumi may have to use islands.
@Regardingplaneswalekrs
I am increasingly convinced that Planeswalkers are a good way to fight board wipes. As I said earlier, I have tried Voice of Zendikar and have loved it. I ordered me some Vital Force and am looking forward to casting them. It just gives the deck an angle which 1) opponents are not expecting and 2) hard to get rid of.
It's a bit unrelated to the topic at hand and I apologize, but I thought you guys have been sort of like my virtual family that I thought I'd share. We added a new mini elf to our family (our third such mini elf) and she is a beautiful, healthy little girl. Her name is Natsumi, which means Summer Ocean.
@Planeswalkers
On a more related note, I think the planeswalkers are a highly underrated piece of technology in Elf sideboards. When I ran Nissa, Voice of Zendikar, it always shined since it helped with our tech and now that I run Steward of Elements, I see the value in them. They are especially important against snappy decks and anything that controls our board state.
@Syreal94
Thanks for your streaming! It is a lot of work and I hope you keep going. We all benefit greatly from your work, so I thought I'd share our appreciation.
Seeing a lot of talk about thought knot brewing. It's definitely a good card, but what exactly are we attempting to do with it? Are we using it to disrupt potential sweepers or combo? That seems to be the main "weakness" it could help with? If that's the case, does it come down quick enough to accomplish that? Turn 3 on the play may work, but turn 3 on the draw would likely be to late to stop a sweeper or combo card in many scenarios, especially post board where people are mulliganing into their sideboard cards.
Perhaps just some ignorance on my part, just curious what void people see this card filling in the deck.
Doesn't seem like something we'd want to Chord for, isn't an elf, and can't Company into it. Those seem like three pretty large strikes for a deck that assumes much of its power from synergy amongst those cards. Especially if we're going to be jamming 3-4 of them main. Admittedly I haven't play tested the card and am intrigued, hoping for some knowledge here.
I agree entirely here. I think the space is much better filled with other things, particularly selfless spirits, rec sages, etc... (other sideboard cards in mainboard slots for game 1 utility)
I played tks to a top 8 finish. Basically, I used it to fight anger, bolts and the two decks we have a hard time with: shapeshifter variant and tron. It can also come against control, burn and creatureless combo. I put them in the sideboard and used them in tandem with discard. Now I am exploring options with counterspell. What it basically does is give us a transformational sideboard.
Not 100% convinced, but it worked before foe me, so now I'm trying it with UG.
Abzan with displacers seems good on paper with Shaman, Visionary, and Dwynen's as etb targets; however, adding colorless will make GB/Abzan even more clunky given GB is already known for that.
I think TKS' best home is in a non-Gbx shell. Unless you take out shamans then maybe it can work with TS coming in from the side for more hand hate. The combination of both seems like a great strategy against fast decks (screw you Counters Company) and control.
Am I a madman for even considering GB with no Shaman?
Well, you should check out my scg iq top8 list. I made Shaman and tks work. Although it's only one tournament, it is worth further testing. In my opinion, it wasn't as clunky as it sounds since colorless sources are also gb sources. In essence, pain lands are trim color lands.
Do you have a link? I'm always interested in seeing what people are running.
I think the clunkiness stems from not being able to rely solely on Archdruid, Heritage, Llanowar, or Mystic's mana output. Whether I run eldrazi or shaman, I have to keep a land up to produce their color and this sometimes restricts me from vomiting my hand out. It's not often it happens but when it does happen it makes my plays slower. I actually think that a big reason why GW lists have made it to GP top 8s - unlike GB or GxC - is because their mana base is consistent. Also canopies and White's strong sideboard selection helps.
I do like the thought of GWC for the reasons I mentioned and because Boreal Druid produces Eldrazi's mana and it doesn't ping me unlike Elves of Deep Shadow if I'd want to cast Shaman off of it. This is of course just my 2 cents. I could very well be wrong and see a GBc list in the next GP.
Lastly despite me being critical about Non-Gw lists, I still see their potential. Afterall, my favorite build is GB,
My link should be below my signature. I ran them for a top 8 finish.
Good questions and very good analysis. In short, I think GB's mana base is clunky, if you are trying to run them down with Ezuri or dump your hand as fast as possible. The interesting thing I find is that GBs game plan is not primarily trying to dump enough dudes to go wide, but to chip away with Shaman damage. Thus, elfballing is more difficult with GB, but our game plan is not trying to Elfball all the time, but to switch from elfballing to beatdown. An example would be playing shaman when you only have two dudes on board. In the case with GW, you would want to go wide and drop many creatures with the mana dorks, but the thing that makes GB unique is its ability to shift focus to a Shaman chip and beatdown. This makes elfballing and consequently Ezuri over-run as one of the ways to win and not the way to win. That's where the beauty and versatility of GB comes into play.
In terms of GW winning or placing top 8 lists, I believe that is primarily in the American metagame. Ever since Shaman was spoiled, GB has been piloted to good finishes here in Japan. I think, maybe, culture plays a big roll in people's preferences in playstyle. An example would be when the Vizier combo was released into the metagame. America was all over the combo and fitting them into Elves, but here in Japan, it simply experimented and I don't find many players who fully embraced it. Of course, that could be my metagame here near Osaka.
Abzan with displacers seems good on paper with Shaman, Visionary, and Dwynen's as etb targets; however, adding colorless will make GB/Abzan even more clunky given GB is already known for that.
I think TKS' best home is in a non-Gbx shell. Unless you take out shamans then maybe it can work with TS coming in from the side for more hand hate. The combination of both seems like a great strategy against fast decks (screw you Counters Company) and control.
Am I a madman for even considering GB with no Shaman?
Well, you should check out my scg iq top8 list. I made Shaman and tks work. Although it's only one tournament, it is worth further testing. In my opinion, it wasn't as clunky as it sounds since colorless sources are also gb sources. In essence, pain lands are trim color lands.
@Polymorph,
I tried the monastery siege, but didn't like it and that's why my top4 list went towards discard to fight combo and tron. As Syreal94 says, I think counterspell may be better. I'm going to test it at the next tournament. Will report.
Let me know how it is maindecking TKS if you guys try it. I will bring a list with TKS in the sideboard for now. Who knows, maybe it is maindeck-able?
I linked the top 8 list for the tournament that I got fourth place in. Unusual top 8, actually, so it may be a good case study for those who might travel here in the future.
Wow, I am genuinely sad. I will always reflect on the great days of contributing to the Modern Elves forum. Man, some amazing people on here. Please please let us know what your new site will be and also how we can contribute to it. It’s hard to let such a jewel go.
Actually, that is a very interesting point. Turn 3/4 TS into BBE could be very powerful. Stripping their sweeper than BBE for the mass amount of damage (against control/Jace) is a sweet place to be.
I think BBE Jund Elves could really be good against grindy decks as predicted. That will give us some sideboard room to hedge against combo, quick creature decks. BBE being in the deck naturally makes our strategy more grindy and thus, having potent answers to combo/tron in sideboard could go a long way. I do like this direction, it is interesting.
GB relying on non-creatures have been the norm forever. When I play GB, I rarely rely on creature bullets unless warranted. TS x3 is basic, I believe, and that leans us more towards spells. At least, that’s how i’ve Played the last two and a half years.
Haha! Very good point, I admit defeat. I am all for innovation and considering that my current iteration of Elves is BUG, I think you are right in saying I should hold my judgement on it for now and go back to my original self of loving innovation. The only issue I have had is the tri-color thing, so perhaps, I will simply try it out first.
With that, I will go order a Stomping Grounds with the points I have accumulated on Yahoo Auction Japan...
PS I also think getting up to 4 mana consistently with only 18 sources may be difficult
Again, all my wins have been in BG, so I am biased. But it certainly is promising.
I strongly agree with this position. In a value game, you have to take out chords to win the attrition war and spirit forces you to leave them in. I think grindy games should be fought with grindy cards like lead, finks and in my case nissa. Green is pretty good at gaining advantages, so we need to fight with that angle.
@MarcWizard
Actually, she is my third. I have one mini elf girl, one boy elf and our tiny one that came last week. Busy life, but worth every bit of it.
@Syreal94
I do hope they all play Elves. But, I have a soft spot for Fish, so I am not too worried if she goes fish. As far as names go, my eldest is Sakura (Cherry Blossom) middle boy is Koyo (Crimson Leaves) so they look to be good for tapping for forest mana. Natsumi may have to use islands.
@Regardingplaneswalekrs
I am increasingly convinced that Planeswalkers are a good way to fight board wipes. As I said earlier, I have tried Voice of Zendikar and have loved it. I ordered me some Vital Force and am looking forward to casting them. It just gives the deck an angle which 1) opponents are not expecting and 2) hard to get rid of.
It's a bit unrelated to the topic at hand and I apologize, but I thought you guys have been sort of like my virtual family that I thought I'd share. We added a new mini elf to our family (our third such mini elf) and she is a beautiful, healthy little girl. Her name is Natsumi, which means Summer Ocean.
@Planeswalkers
On a more related note, I think the planeswalkers are a highly underrated piece of technology in Elf sideboards. When I ran Nissa, Voice of Zendikar, it always shined since it helped with our tech and now that I run Steward of Elements, I see the value in them. They are especially important against snappy decks and anything that controls our board state.
@Syreal94
Thanks for your streaming! It is a lot of work and I hope you keep going. We all benefit greatly from your work, so I thought I'd share our appreciation.
I played tks to a top 8 finish. Basically, I used it to fight anger, bolts and the two decks we have a hard time with: shapeshifter variant and tron. It can also come against control, burn and creatureless combo. I put them in the sideboard and used them in tandem with discard. Now I am exploring options with counterspell. What it basically does is give us a transformational sideboard.
Not 100% convinced, but it worked before foe me, so now I'm trying it with UG.
My link should be below my signature. I ran them for a top 8 finish.
Good questions and very good analysis. In short, I think GB's mana base is clunky, if you are trying to run them down with Ezuri or dump your hand as fast as possible. The interesting thing I find is that GBs game plan is not primarily trying to dump enough dudes to go wide, but to chip away with Shaman damage. Thus, elfballing is more difficult with GB, but our game plan is not trying to Elfball all the time, but to switch from elfballing to beatdown. An example would be playing shaman when you only have two dudes on board. In the case with GW, you would want to go wide and drop many creatures with the mana dorks, but the thing that makes GB unique is its ability to shift focus to a Shaman chip and beatdown. This makes elfballing and consequently Ezuri over-run as one of the ways to win and not the way to win. That's where the beauty and versatility of GB comes into play.
In terms of GW winning or placing top 8 lists, I believe that is primarily in the American metagame. Ever since Shaman was spoiled, GB has been piloted to good finishes here in Japan. I think, maybe, culture plays a big roll in people's preferences in playstyle. An example would be when the Vizier combo was released into the metagame. America was all over the combo and fitting them into Elves, but here in Japan, it simply experimented and I don't find many players who fully embraced it. Of course, that could be my metagame here near Osaka.
Ya, chords may be necessary as a two of to maintain speed and versatility. I used lead in my GBc list, but the meta now may need chords.
Well, you should check out my scg iq top8 list. I made Shaman and tks work. Although it's only one tournament, it is worth further testing. In my opinion, it wasn't as clunky as it sounds since colorless sources are also gb sources. In essence, pain lands are trim color lands.
@Polymorph,
I tried the monastery siege, but didn't like it and that's why my top4 list went towards discard to fight combo and tron. As Syreal94 says, I think counterspell may be better. I'm going to test it at the next tournament. Will report.
I linked the top 8 list for the tournament that I got fourth place in. Unusual top 8, actually, so it may be a good case study for those who might travel here in the future.
Excited for all these ideas guys!