Hehehe, check out my picture Syreal. This is why you are my virtual friend and we have been so for two years through thick and thin LOL. Our minds think on the same path.
My thought process was like this. When you recommended again GU Elves, I thought I'd give it another try. And with four cavern's and four Yavimaya coasts, and one shrine, we naturally had nine colorless sources. I actually used for tks in my previous scg top eight build and thought naturally that I would try it in the UG too.
With this Im going to try three spell pierces instead of two mana counter spells so that I can protect tks better. You putting it in main deck is interesting. I don't know if I have enough guts to do that LOL. But it might be worth Exploring.
Thanks for the input! I really haven't tested counterspells, but are they worth it? I have a feeling that they are too reactive and holding up two mana may be an issue, but that is from inexperience, so I am willing to try it. I am definitely wanting to move away from Thoughtseize if I can. I will let you know in my testing how it goes.
I do have experience with Coilling Oracle. I tested him a while and found that he is only worth it after a land drop and revealing a land. If not, it would be the same as visionary. For example, if I was on three mana and I hadn't made a land drop. Coiling oracle would put the land directly into play where as Visionary would draw me the land and I can use my unused land drop to drop the land. Ultimately, it only ramps after I make a land drop and only if I hit the land. I felt that the second color and the fact of showing the card was a bigger negative than the rare times it ramps.
I also tried going strait UG. I just found Nissa's 0 ability to be most relevant when I used it to drop impactful three drops. Dropping Shamans would also make Phantasmal Images less powerful, so I would like to explore Sultai a bit further, but I am certainly willing to be wrong.
I will order Unified Wills and test them. If they work, that would be amazing as I would need a lot less Black sources for my mana.
Nissa is fantastic. I have always wanted to fit Nissa in the deck, but with the previous iterations, it wasn't quite synergistic. Voice of Zendikar was close. I used her as a sideboard card against grindy matchups and it did shine there. Steward of Elements is definitely synergistic. Being able to drop a three drop onto the battlefield helps us save on mana (ultimately) and go wide while also providing a win-con when necessary. Nissa doesn't make the deck "faster" than Chord decks, but it isn't any slower compared to Lead decks. At least, this is my limited amount of testing speaking. I think if one is still going for Chord in their build, it would be better to stick to Chord since it is one tempo faster. If, however, one is looking into Lead for grindy matchups, Nissa becomes a competitive option. If Phantasmal Image proves to be quite powerful, as I have surmised, it could give the blue variant some legs to be a serious contender. That is my current thinking.
Yes, the mana was a problem sometimes. No excuses and no belittling of that fact. If the blue cards were all creatures, that would be one thing. But, Nissa is a non-creature and so are Thoughtseizes from the side. I dropped Cavern of Souls count to up the U to ten sources and B to nine sources, which is a minimum for Thoughtseize. I did find that Thoughtseizes are a necessity to fight creature less combo decks. If the color screw is a serious problem, I will have to scrap the idea and stick only to Phantasmal Image, which makes going to blue rather weak. More testing will have to see if it is powerful enough for the risk.
I actually used her +2 ability more than 0. I found that it is more important to threaten an ultimte rather than help going wide. I used the 0 when I would scied and left a powerful elf second from the top (to put down on the battlefield next turn). I found I didn't want to risk an unknown elf when I can just scary into a powerful one or one needed at the moment.
I tested against UW (my friends version), and I found the Nissa to be clutch. UW has a hard time getting rid of planeswalkers and the card advantage or info advantage (from scrying) was powerful against them. Jeskai, I have not tested, but bolts are generally bad for us so we might be less powerful against them with a Nissa build. I just have no idea.
Let me know if you do try it and if you find anything interesting! I am still in the developing and learning stage, so any info will help!
Thanks for the inquiry. Phantasmal Image really shined and I am quite impressed with how it performed. Yes, I am aware that the reveal off of CoCo makes it so the Image can’t copy its partner. I only have one in the deck and with two Chord of Calling, it makes it easy to go pull it out of the deck when we need it. Since the website hasn’t been updated with my deck list, I will go ahead and post it on here and give a short report of what happened yesterday.
Ever since Nissa was spoiled, I have been brewing with the idea that Nissa is actually stronger than she looks. Basically, I had this idea that she can be a flexible version of Lead the Stampede and a win-con on its own against grindy decks that have sweepers, but hard time within permanents (i.e. Path decks). I love the fact that we can use her as a three drop when we need to or a mega drop for a 10/10 when we untap with archdruid. Since grinding some matches, my conclusion that she definitely competes with the Lead slot has not changed, although I have cut down from the original three to two. She is great early, mid and late, but not so great in multiples.
Some may wonder why I have her “compete” with Lead the Stampede. Basically, she is a three drop that smooth out our draws and drop a creature for free for card advantage and help us elf ball. I was skeptical at first, but she actually does not slow our turn four kill anymore than Lead does and definitely give the deck flexibility to win different ways instead of digging for Shaman or Ezuri. Just like when Shaman was spoiled, I found her differing angle of attack to be her most valuable trait.
What I was not expecting, however, was discovering Phantasmal Image. I had traded a foil copy with my friend to help him get his pieces and decided to run some casual games with him. I was pleasantly surprised at how valuable his copying ability was and most importantly, that it costs only two to get another Kitchen Finks, Shaman or Archdruid. Chording for 2 is much easier, I find, than 3.
Games
Round 1 vs Bant Midrange
Game one I lose against a thrice exalted flying 1/1 and I was stuck on lands.
Game 2 we were tied at 4 life, but I found my shaman.
Game 3, I was stuck on two lands with only Heritage Druid on the field. Opponent had four creatures. He beat me down to 1 before I could find my second archdruid with a chord. I thought I had made a mistake since I didn’t have enough to untap and over-run. Somehow, I was thinking that two archdruid would be enough chord for Ezuri (I had two chords in my hand rotting the whole game) and overrun, but I didn’t. Opponent had 13 life and I thought I was dead to the flying beasts, so instead of chording for Ezuri knowing that I wouldn’t have enough damage, I decided to attack with my Druid, Archdruid and Archdruid to the opponent’s untapped creature. Somehow, he decided not to block?! And dropped his life down to 4. I had six mana, so I tapped and pulled a Shaman for the win.
1-0
Round 2 vs GW Tron
Game 1, I mulliganed a lot and he had three Karns!
Game 2, I elfballed before he could pull the trigger.
Game 3, our game stalled with me drawing lands and him drawing lands. The unfortunate thing is that his top deck was better.
1-1
Round 3 vs RG Ramp/Land destruction
Game 1, He ramped into Emperion and I had no answer.
Game 2, He stalled and I stalled, but I pulled a CoCo for the win.
Game 3, Longer game than it should’ve been, but he couldn’t dig for his angers and I CoCoed him to death.
2-1
Round 4 vs BW Aristocrats (friend)
TOTAL ELF BALL TO THE MAX
3-1
Round 5 vs Bogles
Game 1, he mulliganed down to 4! He played first, passed the turn without playing a land and won in three more turns O_0. I couldn’t believe it. He pulled two lands, an enchantment and the crown. It was unbelievable.
Game 2, I won right before he could get his life linker enchantment on.
Game 3, I Reclamation Saged and went faster.
4-1
Round 6 vs Naya Burn
Game 1, he top decked his last spell to kill me. I had brought his life down to 1.
Game 2, I blocked with Nettle Sentinels to drop creatures into the yard so I could eat up to power 4 with my Scavenging Ooze that I had been holding for a while. He couldn’t beat the ooze.
Game 3, I attacked with my ooze which he tried to block with Goblin Guide. I pushed the guide and ate it when he tried to finish my ooze with a helix. He shot two more spells to kill the ooze. His turn ended with only one mana up, so I chorded for kitchen finks. Then, I copied my finks with my image and pulled another finks for the win.
5-1
I hope this report helps. Let me know if you are curious about anything. As you can probably see from the matchup, I found myself pulling out Nissa in a few rounds, but that is expected since I faced many linear decks. It does, however, show the power of Nissa being able to compete in speed with some linear decks.
I don’t think Sultai is the ultimate answer, but I certainly think I it should be serious tested. I am going to stick a while with this deck and will let you all know if I have anything more to report.
I uploaded an image of my deck for those who are more visual
I just went 5-1 for a fourth place finish in a mid size event here in Japan. I used my sultai elves I have been working on for a while. My deck list will be posted on the Monthly Modern Masters site, so I will post my list on here once it's up. I will write a short report once I have a good nights rest. Didn't face many grindy matchups, but faced a lot of fast, linear strategies. I equipped my sultai list with Nissa to beat grindy matchups, but apparently, they weren't bad against fast decks either lol my testing has been that nissa actually helps us combo and become a turn 4 kill deck consistently, rather than hinder it. It has versatility and does some cool things. The main winner for going blue, however, was playing phantasmal image. It was probably the all star of the deck.
It's cool to see @Syreal94 back and rocking the world and see some results from elves decks. Keep the innovation going fellow elves! The deck is not dead at all!
Mirror Entity as a main card in the GB beatdown?
Budget versions of Abzan not running or running 1 Horizon Canopy?
Deck lists by FNM players? One list is running 2 Melira, Sylvok Outcast.
Seriously, you are telling me this is the best there is?
Dont get me wrong, there is some good stuff, but its mixed with so much outdated and faulty information that its hard to read.
As far as decklists are concerned, if you're preoccupied with "the best there is", then please go to MTGtop8.com. The primer is supposed to cover more ground then simply throw the "best" lists at you. FNM lists may not be what you decide to bring to a 256 man tourney but it can sometimes provide new perspectives and insights into local metas and even help when someone played well in a meta similar to your own.
This is exactly right. I am one of the writers for the primer (much of the BG portion) and I can attest to the fact that our goal in writing the primer was "give as much of a wide range of ideas as possible, opening the mind up to different possibilities," not "provide the best and most relevant decklist for competitive players in large tournaments." Are we concerned about competitive players? Yes, of course. I am a competitive player myself. However, we are also concerned about new players who play in FNMs and creative players who want just that nudge towards an interesting idea.
As expected, Nissa has been very consistent and powerful. Since, I vision this card replacing Lead the Stampede, I will compare it with Lead. I believe Nissa makes the deck slightly faster than Lead. It is a card I don't mind dropping on turn two where Lead was a bit awkward at turn two. It is a good top deck late game and can facilitate some speed in the form of free elves (after a scry 2). I found that I want to be ticking up if I dropped it turn two, unless I am against grindy decks and/or I have some combo that I benefit from another body on the field (heritage druid, Shaman of the pack). Its scry ability is very useful. I would leave the bigger body below in order to maximize the free cast the following turn. Putting in a Shaman of the Pack for free makes the game swing quite a bit.
I am not sure about Coiling Oracle. It is technically better than Visionary, but only so if you dropped a land that turn. Otherwise, we can simply use the drawn land and place it onto the battlefield. I was trying to do some scry 2 and land shenanigans, but realized that putting it directly onto the battlefield only mattered when I had already used up a land drop. Since, it stops the chain, I might go back to Visionary.
Finally, I think going Essence Wardens is now correct with this build. Coiling Oracle stops chains and our deck becomes one tempo (not turn) slower. This would mean we have to buy some time somewhere else and I think Essence Warden does that.
I haven't tested sideboarded games extensively. That is where we will see if this makes it, since blue sideboard cards are deemed, usually, weaker.
Ever since new Nissa, Steward of Elements was spoiled, I was overjoyed with the fact that my beloved Coiling Oracle might get its time in the spotlight. So I decided to sleeve up a Sultai (BUG) list and try it out this Monday, here's the list:
Won 2-1 against Eldrazi Tron
Won 2-0 against 4c Humans
Won 2-1 against Skred
Lost 1-2 against Eldrazi Tron (ID last round, played for fun)
Few thoughts about card selection:
Throne of the God-Pharaoh - love it. Having a recurring Shaman effect on the board for mere 2 mana helps close those grindy matchups where board gets clogged. Obviously the earlier we get it down, the more value it provides. Works wonders Heritage Druid by allowing us to tap our board for mana and drain via Throne. Nissa, Steward of Elements - what got me interested the most is her X casting cost which provides flexibility depending on the stage of the game. We can drop her as early as T2, +2 to Scry 2 and tick her up to 3. Prone to bolt removal but we've already gotten the scry out of her. Since our deck is already built around Collected Company this works perfectly with her 0 ability as we only need her on 3 loyalty to put any creature in our deck straight onto the board. Where she really shines is her ultimate. Casting her for X=8 costs us 8 mana, the same as Ezuri + overrun activation but allows us to attack for 10 over air and close the game on the spot. Coiling Oracle - running U allows us to replace Elvish Visionary with this little gem. By putting lands straight into play it thins our library and ramps us. Notable difference is that it reveals the top card so your opponent will know what you're putting in your hand as opposed to Visionary that simply draws us the card. Oracle also works very well with new Nissa and her scry ability. If you need a land, use Nissa, scry 2, leave a land on top and follow up with Oracle which will put that land into play. Unified Will - W has Selfless Spirit to deal with boardwipes, B has Thoughtseize to deal with that or combo. Blue provides us with countermagic. The downside of counterspells is that they force us to keep mana up but a well timed counter can turn the tide of the battle. Deck plays a bit slower than it's GB/GW counterparts which is why I feel it counterspells fit right in. People don't expect Elves to use counter magic so there's an element of surprise for now. There's also the option of playing Negate or even Spell Pierce. Monastery Siege - a pet card of mine to deal with decks like Burn or BGx which pack lots of targeted removal. Haven't had the chance to cast it at all nor was I paired against any decks that would warrant boarding it in. 3 is probably too many, 1 feels like not enough. Essence Warden - went for Wardens instead of Sentinels to offset the life loss from fetchlands.
Obviously the sample is very small and all this information should be taken with a grain of salt for now. Mana base feels particularly clunky at the moment especially since I'm only splashing black for the Shaman. I'll keep you posted.
Wow, looks like I have a fiend in sultai and we independently came to the same conclusions, down to monastery siege! I have been testing Sultai and it has game, especially dropping Nissa down has been really good against most decks not named affinity. My mana base includes two gilt-leaf palaces and one shock. Has been smooth so far.
Just as a comment, it might be better if our Sultai sideboards incorporate heavily towards fast and or unfair matchups. I think Lead the Stampede x3 in the board may be too much since Nissa is a replacement for it against grindy matchups. I have two chords in the main and one in the side. My sideboard is leaning heavily against Affinity, Zoo, Chord decks and the like. Of course, this is dependent on meta
I thought about that, but it seems really temporary. Since especially they will be bringing in whipflare, a temporary solution would not be as good as creeping corrosion. I will try it thoug.
Ever since new Nissa, Steward of Elements was spoiled, I was overjoyed with the fact that my beloved Coiling Oracle might get its time in the spotlight. So I decided to sleeve up a Sultai (BUG) list and try it out this Monday, here's the list:
Won 2-1 against Eldrazi Tron
Won 2-0 against 4c Humans
Won 2-1 against Skred
Lost 1-2 against Eldrazi Tron (ID last round, played for fun)
Few thoughts about card selection:
Throne of the God-Pharaoh - love it. Having a recurring Shaman effect on the board for mere 2 mana helps close those grindy matchups where board gets clogged. Obviously the earlier we get it down, the more value it provides. Works wonders Heritage Druid by allowing us to tap our board for mana and drain via Throne. Nissa, Steward of Elements - what got me interested the most is her X casting cost which provides flexibility depending on the stage of the game. We can drop her as early as T2, +2 to Scry 2 and tick her up to 3. Prone to bolt removal but we've already gotten the scry out of her. Since our deck is already built around Collected Company this works perfectly with her 0 ability as we only need her on 3 loyalty to put any creature in our deck straight onto the board. Where she really shines is her ultimate. Casting her for X=8 costs us 8 mana, the same as Ezuri + overrun activation but allows us to attack for 10 over air and close the game on the spot. Coiling Oracle - running U allows us to replace Elvish Visionary with this little gem. By putting lands straight into play it thins our library and ramps us. Notable difference is that it reveals the top card so your opponent will know what you're putting in your hand as opposed to Visionary that simply draws us the card. Oracle also works very well with new Nissa and her scry ability. If you need a land, use Nissa, scry 2, leave a land on top and follow up with Oracle which will put that land into play. Unified Will - W has Selfless Spirit to deal with boardwipes, B has Thoughtseize to deal with that or combo. Blue provides us with countermagic. The downside of counterspells is that they force us to keep mana up but a well timed counter can turn the tide of the battle. Deck plays a bit slower than it's GB/GW counterparts which is why I feel it counterspells fit right in. People don't expect Elves to use counter magic so there's an element of surprise for now. There's also the option of playing Negate or even Spell Pierce. Monastery Siege - a pet card of mine to deal with decks like Burn or BGx which pack lots of targeted removal. Haven't had the chance to cast it at all nor was I paired against any decks that would warrant boarding it in. 3 is probably too many, 1 feels like not enough. Essence Warden - went for Wardens instead of Sentinels to offset the life loss from fetchlands.
Obviously the sample is very small and all this information should be taken with a grain of salt for now. Mana base feels particularly clunky at the moment especially since I'm only splashing black for the Shaman. I'll keep you posted.
Wow, looks like I have a fiend in sultai and we independently came to the same conclusions, down to monastery siege! I have been testing Sultai and it has game, especially dropping Nissa down has been really good against most decks not named affinity. My mana base includes two gilt-leaf palaces and one shock. Has been smooth so far.
Just as a comment, it might be better if our Sultai sideboards incorporate heavily towards fast and or unfair matchups. I think Lead the Stampede x3 in the board may be too much since Nissa is a replacement for it against grindy matchups. I have two chords in the main and one in the side. My sideboard is leaning heavily against Affinity, Zoo, Chord decks and the like. Of course, this is dependent on meta
So, I have been testing Simic Elves and I have found out some things. First, as you guys have mentioned, Coiling Oracle off of a chain is difficult to manage. I agree. However, I think the "awkwardness" is similar to Shaman of the Pack (when people were decrying its clunkyness way back when). I have taken Shaman out in order to win a different way. Then, you ask, what does blue offer that other colors don't? These loosely held ideas are my conclusions so far.
1) GW wins primarily off of Ezuri where Simic offers us Nissa
This is significant, because in a way Simic can mimic what GW does while offering other benefits. Where GW would win only off of an Ezuri, our new Nissa gives us another win-con while still maintaining the card advantage, mana sink and spell plays when we go blue. This would replace the "Lead the Stampede" builds which also uses that unstable spell to try to get card advantage.
In conclusion, Nissa's versatility gives us another angle compared to GW.
2) We get to play 8 visionary effects
Despite Visionary being clunky sometimes, it is only so if we don't have mana. If we are given a lot of mana, each visionary gives card advantage, threat and elves count. Simic offers us 8 visionaries effect that help against grindy decks, good off of CoCo, ramp sometimes and is generally a great two drop unless we are against fast decks.
Conclusion, since we drop Shaman, we can add two mana card advantage in order to grind out.
3) Simic offers us mana
Though not reliable, each oracle and nissa offers us a good chance to ramp. We would not rely on this ramp, but it is a feature non-the-less, which would push us to a more "big mana" scenario than the other options.
To wrap this all up, I think a Simic build can be competitive (and in my limited testing, it has) if the deck goes in the direction of "lots of small creatures, card advantage through the small creatures and win via 1) big ezuri pump (plan A) or 2) big nissa (plan B) or 3) pharoah (newly incorporated plan C)." This will assure that going blue will be viable and competitive.
I haven't gone into sideboarding yet, so I don't about counter spells. But, if some lists are including a certain two mana green spells that give our creatures indestructible, I don't see how a counter spell will be any worse.
I am not to the point of promoting Simiic as much as I did Golgari when Shaman came out. However, I do see Nissa as being something powerful people are not considering due to its color combination, which makes us need to re-evaluate our mana. To emphasize my belief in my hunch, I have ordered two nissas in this over-priced, hyped up season. All because Nissa is ultimately a planeswalker that comes down for three or thirteen, is card advantage or ramp, help us draw into something, only need three loyalty to hit all of our creatures, its second ability hit rate is 52/60 (without counting our hand, of course) and is a win con by itself and can fight grindy decks.
I like the starting point, but I'm not sure about the 10 spells. We want to maximize Anissa and CoCo hits. I would consider dropping a chord or one pact or one Nissa.
I am loving the Nissa in the deck though. Nissa is CA, ramp and a win con. Our deck so maximize our mana, going wide and sorcery speed, which the pact and behemoth build does. I will look in this direction too.
I'm surprised there hasn't been more discussion on the new Nissa. I believe it is viable. It helps our plan to get more dorks down, it is hard to kill for control and it helps our consistency. I feel that it could replace Lead the Stampede for those who are pushing that. I'd start with 1 or 2 in maindeck.
@Treefolkmania
I really thing UG can become an option once we see if Nissa is good enough to switch colors. I have my doubts in dropping Shaman of the Pack and going three colors seems difficult. Perhaps Nissa plus Oracle would make it worth it, especially if we can bring in counters to protect us. Who knows.
Wren's Run Packmaster is my jam and I have been playing it for a long time, since Autumn 2015. I love it and bring it in against most everything that is grindy, control to ramp combo. I love it.
Chord for fast decks, Thoughtseize for combo and control and Decays for permanents, Cheerios and other creature decks. In essence, I become a more midrangy deck after board.
Ton of tron, experimental decks and linear aggressive. Probably because of Tron.
When are you coming? Do you want to test with us at our house? I can ask my wife if I can host another (have already my friend coming). My friend has a house too. We are about an hour and a half from kobe. An hour away from the airport.
Wow, I am genuinely sad. I will always reflect on the great days of contributing to the Modern Elves forum. Man, some amazing people on here. Please please let us know what your new site will be and also how we can contribute to it. It’s hard to let such a jewel go.
Hehehe, check out my picture Syreal. This is why you are my virtual friend and we have been so for two years through thick and thin LOL. Our minds think on the same path.
My thought process was like this. When you recommended again GU Elves, I thought I'd give it another try. And with four cavern's and four Yavimaya coasts, and one shrine, we naturally had nine colorless sources. I actually used for tks in my previous scg top eight build and thought naturally that I would try it in the UG too.
With this Im going to try three spell pierces instead of two mana counter spells so that I can protect tks better. You putting it in main deck is interesting. I don't know if I have enough guts to do that LOL. But it might be worth Exploring.
Thanks for the input! I really haven't tested counterspells, but are they worth it? I have a feeling that they are too reactive and holding up two mana may be an issue, but that is from inexperience, so I am willing to try it. I am definitely wanting to move away from Thoughtseize if I can. I will let you know in my testing how it goes.
I do have experience with Coilling Oracle. I tested him a while and found that he is only worth it after a land drop and revealing a land. If not, it would be the same as visionary. For example, if I was on three mana and I hadn't made a land drop. Coiling oracle would put the land directly into play where as Visionary would draw me the land and I can use my unused land drop to drop the land. Ultimately, it only ramps after I make a land drop and only if I hit the land. I felt that the second color and the fact of showing the card was a bigger negative than the rare times it ramps.
I also tried going strait UG. I just found Nissa's 0 ability to be most relevant when I used it to drop impactful three drops. Dropping Shamans would also make Phantasmal Images less powerful, so I would like to explore Sultai a bit further, but I am certainly willing to be wrong.
I will order Unified Wills and test them. If they work, that would be amazing as I would need a lot less Black sources for my mana.
Keep the ideas coming!!
Nissa is fantastic. I have always wanted to fit Nissa in the deck, but with the previous iterations, it wasn't quite synergistic. Voice of Zendikar was close. I used her as a sideboard card against grindy matchups and it did shine there. Steward of Elements is definitely synergistic. Being able to drop a three drop onto the battlefield helps us save on mana (ultimately) and go wide while also providing a win-con when necessary. Nissa doesn't make the deck "faster" than Chord decks, but it isn't any slower compared to Lead decks. At least, this is my limited amount of testing speaking. I think if one is still going for Chord in their build, it would be better to stick to Chord since it is one tempo faster. If, however, one is looking into Lead for grindy matchups, Nissa becomes a competitive option. If Phantasmal Image proves to be quite powerful, as I have surmised, it could give the blue variant some legs to be a serious contender. That is my current thinking.
Yes, the mana was a problem sometimes. No excuses and no belittling of that fact. If the blue cards were all creatures, that would be one thing. But, Nissa is a non-creature and so are Thoughtseizes from the side. I dropped Cavern of Souls count to up the U to ten sources and B to nine sources, which is a minimum for Thoughtseize. I did find that Thoughtseizes are a necessity to fight creature less combo decks. If the color screw is a serious problem, I will have to scrap the idea and stick only to Phantasmal Image, which makes going to blue rather weak. More testing will have to see if it is powerful enough for the risk.
I actually used her +2 ability more than 0. I found that it is more important to threaten an ultimte rather than help going wide. I used the 0 when I would scied and left a powerful elf second from the top (to put down on the battlefield next turn). I found I didn't want to risk an unknown elf when I can just scary into a powerful one or one needed at the moment.
I tested against UW (my friends version), and I found the Nissa to be clutch. UW has a hard time getting rid of planeswalkers and the card advantage or info advantage (from scrying) was powerful against them. Jeskai, I have not tested, but bolts are generally bad for us so we might be less powerful against them with a Nissa build. I just have no idea.
Let me know if you do try it and if you find anything interesting! I am still in the developing and learning stage, so any info will help!
Thanks for the inquiry. Phantasmal Image really shined and I am quite impressed with how it performed. Yes, I am aware that the reveal off of CoCo makes it so the Image can’t copy its partner. I only have one in the deck and with two Chord of Calling, it makes it easy to go pull it out of the deck when we need it. Since the website hasn’t been updated with my deck list, I will go ahead and post it on here and give a short report of what happened yesterday.
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Heritage Druid
3 Nettle Sentinel
4 Dwynen’s Elite
3 Elvish Visionary
1 Phantasmal Image
4 Shaman of the Pack
4 Elvish Archdruid
2 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
4 Collected Company
2 Chord of Calling
Planeswalker
2 Nissa, Steward of Elements
Lands
2 Forest
4 Botanical Sanctum
4 Windswept Heath
4 Gilt-Leaf Palace
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Breeding Pool
1 Yavimaya Coast
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Chord of Calling
1 Fatal Push
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Reclamation Sage
2 Kitchen Finks
3 Thoughtseize
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Chameleon Colosus
2 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Phyrexian Revoker
Reason for Sultai
Ever since Nissa was spoiled, I have been brewing with the idea that Nissa is actually stronger than she looks. Basically, I had this idea that she can be a flexible version of Lead the Stampede and a win-con on its own against grindy decks that have sweepers, but hard time within permanents (i.e. Path decks). I love the fact that we can use her as a three drop when we need to or a mega drop for a 10/10 when we untap with archdruid. Since grinding some matches, my conclusion that she definitely competes with the Lead slot has not changed, although I have cut down from the original three to two. She is great early, mid and late, but not so great in multiples.
Some may wonder why I have her “compete” with Lead the Stampede. Basically, she is a three drop that smooth out our draws and drop a creature for free for card advantage and help us elf ball. I was skeptical at first, but she actually does not slow our turn four kill anymore than Lead does and definitely give the deck flexibility to win different ways instead of digging for Shaman or Ezuri. Just like when Shaman was spoiled, I found her differing angle of attack to be her most valuable trait.
What I was not expecting, however, was discovering Phantasmal Image. I had traded a foil copy with my friend to help him get his pieces and decided to run some casual games with him. I was pleasantly surprised at how valuable his copying ability was and most importantly, that it costs only two to get another Kitchen Finks, Shaman or Archdruid. Chording for 2 is much easier, I find, than 3.
Games
Round 1 vs Bant Midrange
Game one I lose against a thrice exalted flying 1/1 and I was stuck on lands.
Game 2 we were tied at 4 life, but I found my shaman.
Game 3, I was stuck on two lands with only Heritage Druid on the field. Opponent had four creatures. He beat me down to 1 before I could find my second archdruid with a chord. I thought I had made a mistake since I didn’t have enough to untap and over-run. Somehow, I was thinking that two archdruid would be enough chord for Ezuri (I had two chords in my hand rotting the whole game) and overrun, but I didn’t. Opponent had 13 life and I thought I was dead to the flying beasts, so instead of chording for Ezuri knowing that I wouldn’t have enough damage, I decided to attack with my Druid, Archdruid and Archdruid to the opponent’s untapped creature. Somehow, he decided not to block?! And dropped his life down to 4. I had six mana, so I tapped and pulled a Shaman for the win.
1-0
Round 2 vs GW Tron
Game 1, I mulliganed a lot and he had three Karns!
Game 2, I elfballed before he could pull the trigger.
Game 3, our game stalled with me drawing lands and him drawing lands. The unfortunate thing is that his top deck was better.
1-1
Round 3 vs RG Ramp/Land destruction
Game 1, He ramped into Emperion and I had no answer.
Game 2, He stalled and I stalled, but I pulled a CoCo for the win.
Game 3, Longer game than it should’ve been, but he couldn’t dig for his angers and I CoCoed him to death.
2-1
Round 4 vs BW Aristocrats (friend)
TOTAL ELF BALL TO THE MAX
3-1
Round 5 vs Bogles
Game 1, he mulliganed down to 4! He played first, passed the turn without playing a land and won in three more turns O_0. I couldn’t believe it. He pulled two lands, an enchantment and the crown. It was unbelievable.
Game 2, I won right before he could get his life linker enchantment on.
Game 3, I Reclamation Saged and went faster.
4-1
Round 6 vs Naya Burn
Game 1, he top decked his last spell to kill me. I had brought his life down to 1.
Game 2, I blocked with Nettle Sentinels to drop creatures into the yard so I could eat up to power 4 with my Scavenging Ooze that I had been holding for a while. He couldn’t beat the ooze.
Game 3, I attacked with my ooze which he tried to block with Goblin Guide. I pushed the guide and ate it when he tried to finish my ooze with a helix. He shot two more spells to kill the ooze. His turn ended with only one mana up, so I chorded for kitchen finks. Then, I copied my finks with my image and pulled another finks for the win.
5-1
I hope this report helps. Let me know if you are curious about anything. As you can probably see from the matchup, I found myself pulling out Nissa in a few rounds, but that is expected since I faced many linear decks. It does, however, show the power of Nissa being able to compete in speed with some linear decks.
I don’t think Sultai is the ultimate answer, but I certainly think I it should be serious tested. I am going to stick a while with this deck and will let you all know if I have anything more to report.
I uploaded an image of my deck for those who are more visual
Happy elfballing friends!!!
I just went 5-1 for a fourth place finish in a mid size event here in Japan. I used my sultai elves I have been working on for a while. My deck list will be posted on the Monthly Modern Masters site, so I will post my list on here once it's up. I will write a short report once I have a good nights rest. Didn't face many grindy matchups, but faced a lot of fast, linear strategies. I equipped my sultai list with Nissa to beat grindy matchups, but apparently, they weren't bad against fast decks either lol my testing has been that nissa actually helps us combo and become a turn 4 kill deck consistently, rather than hinder it. It has versatility and does some cool things. The main winner for going blue, however, was playing phantasmal image. It was probably the all star of the deck.
It's cool to see @Syreal94 back and rocking the world and see some results from elves decks. Keep the innovation going fellow elves! The deck is not dead at all!
This is exactly right. I am one of the writers for the primer (much of the BG portion) and I can attest to the fact that our goal in writing the primer was "give as much of a wide range of ideas as possible, opening the mind up to different possibilities," not "provide the best and most relevant decklist for competitive players in large tournaments." Are we concerned about competitive players? Yes, of course. I am a competitive player myself. However, we are also concerned about new players who play in FNMs and creative players who want just that nudge towards an interesting idea.
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Heritage Druid
3 Essence Warden
4 Dwynen's Elite
4 Coiling Oracle
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Shaman of the Pack
2 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Chord of Calling
2 Nissa, Steward of Elements
4 Collected Company
Lands (18)
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Breeding Pool
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Forest
4 Botanical Sanctum
2 Gilt-Leaf Palace
2 Yavimaya Coast
As expected, Nissa has been very consistent and powerful. Since, I vision this card replacing Lead the Stampede, I will compare it with Lead. I believe Nissa makes the deck slightly faster than Lead. It is a card I don't mind dropping on turn two where Lead was a bit awkward at turn two. It is a good top deck late game and can facilitate some speed in the form of free elves (after a scry 2). I found that I want to be ticking up if I dropped it turn two, unless I am against grindy decks and/or I have some combo that I benefit from another body on the field (heritage druid, Shaman of the pack). Its scry ability is very useful. I would leave the bigger body below in order to maximize the free cast the following turn. Putting in a Shaman of the Pack for free makes the game swing quite a bit.
I am not sure about Coiling Oracle. It is technically better than Visionary, but only so if you dropped a land that turn. Otherwise, we can simply use the drawn land and place it onto the battlefield. I was trying to do some scry 2 and land shenanigans, but realized that putting it directly onto the battlefield only mattered when I had already used up a land drop. Since, it stops the chain, I might go back to Visionary.
Finally, I think going Essence Wardens is now correct with this build. Coiling Oracle stops chains and our deck becomes one tempo (not turn) slower. This would mean we have to buy some time somewhere else and I think Essence Warden does that.
I haven't tested sideboarded games extensively. That is where we will see if this makes it, since blue sideboard cards are deemed, usually, weaker.
To be continued...
I thought about that, but it seems really temporary. Since especially they will be bringing in whipflare, a temporary solution would not be as good as creeping corrosion. I will try it thoug.
Wow, looks like I have a fiend in sultai and we independently came to the same conclusions, down to monastery siege! I have been testing Sultai and it has game, especially dropping Nissa down has been really good against most decks not named affinity. My mana base includes two gilt-leaf palaces and one shock. Has been smooth so far.
Just as a comment, it might be better if our Sultai sideboards incorporate heavily towards fast and or unfair matchups. I think Lead the Stampede x3 in the board may be too much since Nissa is a replacement for it against grindy matchups. I have two chords in the main and one in the side. My sideboard is leaning heavily against Affinity, Zoo, Chord decks and the like. Of course, this is dependent on meta
1) GW wins primarily off of Ezuri where Simic offers us Nissa
This is significant, because in a way Simic can mimic what GW does while offering other benefits. Where GW would win only off of an Ezuri, our new Nissa gives us another win-con while still maintaining the card advantage, mana sink and spell plays when we go blue. This would replace the "Lead the Stampede" builds which also uses that unstable spell to try to get card advantage.
In conclusion, Nissa's versatility gives us another angle compared to GW.
2) We get to play 8 visionary effects
Despite Visionary being clunky sometimes, it is only so if we don't have mana. If we are given a lot of mana, each visionary gives card advantage, threat and elves count. Simic offers us 8 visionaries effect that help against grindy decks, good off of CoCo, ramp sometimes and is generally a great two drop unless we are against fast decks.
Conclusion, since we drop Shaman, we can add two mana card advantage in order to grind out.
3) Simic offers us mana
Though not reliable, each oracle and nissa offers us a good chance to ramp. We would not rely on this ramp, but it is a feature non-the-less, which would push us to a more "big mana" scenario than the other options.
To wrap this all up, I think a Simic build can be competitive (and in my limited testing, it has) if the deck goes in the direction of "lots of small creatures, card advantage through the small creatures and win via 1) big ezuri pump (plan A) or 2) big nissa (plan B) or 3) pharoah (newly incorporated plan C)." This will assure that going blue will be viable and competitive.
I haven't gone into sideboarding yet, so I don't about counter spells. But, if some lists are including a certain two mana green spells that give our creatures indestructible, I don't see how a counter spell will be any worse.
I am not to the point of promoting Simiic as much as I did Golgari when Shaman came out. However, I do see Nissa as being something powerful people are not considering due to its color combination, which makes us need to re-evaluate our mana. To emphasize my belief in my hunch, I have ordered two nissas in this over-priced, hyped up season. All because Nissa is ultimately a planeswalker that comes down for three or thirteen, is card advantage or ramp, help us draw into something, only need three loyalty to hit all of our creatures, its second ability hit rate is 52/60 (without counting our hand, of course) and is a win con by itself and can fight grindy decks.
I am loving the Nissa in the deck though. Nissa is CA, ramp and a win con. Our deck so maximize our mana, going wide and sorcery speed, which the pact and behemoth build does. I will look in this direction too.
@Treefolkmania
I really thing UG can become an option once we see if Nissa is good enough to switch colors. I have my doubts in dropping Shaman of the Pack and going three colors seems difficult. Perhaps Nissa plus Oracle would make it worth it, especially if we can bring in counters to protect us. Who knows.
3 Thoughtseize
2 Wren's Run Packmaster
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Chord of Calling
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Reclamation Sage
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Fracturing Gust
1 Spellskite
Wren's Run Packmaster is my jam and I have been playing it for a long time, since Autumn 2015. I love it and bring it in against most everything that is grindy, control to ramp combo. I love it.
Chord for fast decks, Thoughtseize for combo and control and Decays for permanents, Cheerios and other creature decks. In essence, I become a more midrangy deck after board.
I am right now testing 3 Leads and 1 Chord in my BG build for GP Kobe. It hums and purrs like a Ferrari
When are you coming? Do you want to test with us at our house? I can ask my wife if I can host another (have already my friend coming). My friend has a house too. We are about an hour and a half from kobe. An hour away from the airport.