MTG Salvation

Potential card-draw seems to lie in Mentor of the Meek (since you're operating with weenies) and Tezzeret's Gambit simply by nature of it being phyrexian mana. What else is there, really, for mono-white?

I'm not sure how many Mentors are really appropriate, though, since it seems when you're crackin' that shrine to get 1/1s, you're already set up for your win.

I guess there's also Shrine of Piercing Vision, although without blue it's not going to help you very much. Gambit would help it along, though. Maybe you could splash a little blue for Ponder and SB a few negates or something?

Just got back from LGS, managed to top4 with Venser, where everyone split. Felt pretty good. Played the following list:



Opponents were Heartless Summoning (2-0), Kuldotha Red (2-1), U/W/b Blade-Control (0-2), Pod (2-0) and U/W Humans (0-2). All were pretty interesting games -- I was very surprised by K-Red showing up, and it performing as well as it did. I had expected to do better in my Humans matchup, although when I surprisingly made top8 (apparently a lot of people had a few losses under the belt), I got my revenge on that same U/W Humans deck (2-1).

Heartless and Pod seemed largely in my favor. Both decks are slow enough that I can establish really good position, and with my removal and Sun Titan interaction I can out-slug them. I'm not sure if I sideboarded vs Heartless -- maybe took out Dismembers for Dissipate? Although I'm not sure if that's the right call, because being able to Dismember his Titans is pretty neat too. Vs. Pod I lost Splicers and Batterskull for Spellskites and Dissipates. Never saw the Dissipates but Spellskite was amazing at eating removal meant for Venser and Pals.

K-Red, game 1, blew me up with goblin grenades, brimstone volley, all after a successful turn 1 Rebirth. But the following games, my timely reinforcements and batterskull were too tough for him to overcome. Spellskite was hugely important in this matchup, since it ate burn like a pro. Games 2 and 3 I was at maybe 6-7 life when I won. I took out Dismembers, Karn, and I think Alchemy for the extra day, stonehorn, the timelys, and spellskites.

Control, in general, tears my mainboard apart. Venser isn't a top card against control IMO anyhow, and trying to combo with him is exceptionally difficult against as much permission these guys can load up on. Stonehorn is a laugh in this match. Game 2 I threw in Heroes and Abolisher, as they're nice threats - but I made the mistake of continuing to play Forbidden Alchemy in this matchup, which meant I had to choose between getting Karn, Hero of Bladehold, Blade Splicer and Grand Abolisher. Ditching threats you can't recur really, really hurts. Anyway, I'll try using the aggro sideboard again - without Alchemy - next time I get a shot.

U/W Humans is always a tough matchup. But here, Stonehorn is great. As I said I had expected to perform better; admittedly, I drew a motherload of land first two games with this dude, and the second time in the top 8, I did eventually win. But, as I'm playing Stonehorn specifically because I want to be really good against aggro, in exchange for losing so hard to control, I want to do better...so I am absolutely considering tweaks.

The U/W Humans games in top 8 were ridiculous, though. I lost game 1, but came back game 2 by freeing a Venser from an O-Ring, blinking a Sun Titan, casting day to wipe the field, and having Titan return with Image and more bullcrap to give me just enough material to win. He was prepared to make blocker tokens with Moorland Haunt on the following turn, but with Venser's -1, I swung for lethal without giving him a say.

Game 3 was much more in my favor - landing Venser to a Day'd field, and then racking up Stonehorn triggers. I looked up prior to the match about stacking multiple triggers (as I had a Venser in play, when I played Stonehorn and then Blinked him, this accumulated to my opponent having to skip his next two combats - yes, this is the official ruling). There was some arguing but the judge finally ruled in my favor after looking it up. My opponent, though clearly frustrated, was still a good sport.

Eventually I sacrificed Venser to get an emblem (he did take a bit of damage), and just cast more stonehorns and images to steal combat, exiling everything important in the meantime. He scooped when I landed a Sun Titan recurring two images, where his field was two plains.

This Humans player was very skilled. I'm not sure if I was lucky, or his was an uncommon game or what. There were also some plays were probably questionable from both sides, but it was a weird match. At any rate it was fun, and it felt very rewarding to me as a player and a deckbuilder to get that win.

Forbidden Alchemy and Ponder are, IMO, a must if you want to do the Stonehorn lock. They're also just really good cards to consider playing anyway. Things felt very consistent. The three black sources were sufficient in getting Flashback online, and I didn't really have any issues mana-wise. Ponder helps me get the land I need - Alchemy lets me skip land when preferable. Alchemy is great at getting Images and Blade Splicers ready for Sun Titan, and it also helps me dig for Venser or Stonehorn. Useful stuff.

Now, you may have noticed I have no Gideon Jura in my list. A lot of people have been telling me that he's not as strong as he used to be, and I think I agree. Many times - in this strategy, at least - he's done little for me apart from be a 3WW Holy Day. While Stonehorn is very similar, he at least advances my overall gameplan to link-up with Venser. And, the 1/4 blocker on the following turn is also useful. Stonehorn can also be cloned - Gideon cannot. And as a finisher, I'm not getting any virtual card advantage upon playing him, as I almost assuredly do with a Sun Titan.

As I see it, most aggro decks are going to fill the board with so many powerful threats that they can swing for lethal in only a few turns. And, since they could close out a game with so many creatures individually, they just grow to absurd amounts of power unless you blow up the field. While Gideon is still an absolutely amazing card, I'm not sure if he's proper for this specific deck, which is, hell, sometimes slower than Solar Flare.

Anyway, comments and criticisms are welcome. I'm eager to know what successes you folks have had, and what ideas you have in store for Venser. I really want to keep playing this guy.

Quote from RStevens

If there are no flip cards in the 3rd set that means there are no werewolves. I would assume that means Avacyn is the good angel and that she comes back and reapes some havoc on the baddies.

Unless they decide to make non-DFC werewolves.

The most rogue deck I've played against this season belongs to a friend of mine. It's a big red list with like, 16 win conditions in it, among them Wurmcoils, Inferno Titans, Koth. Tezzeret's Gambit keeps his hand in good size, and he proliferates Koth and Tumble Magnets to good effect (it's not too uncommon for him to Koth emblem a turn after he comes out). Sphere of the Suns and Solemn Simulacrum for ramp, and Spellskite makes the task of removal difficult sometimes.

It's a pretty cool deck, and our matches are pretty even too.

Quote from nukeme1

That kid didn't win. He made day 2 in a GP.

Regardless, this game is for AGE 13+! That he was even allowed to play is an absolute travesty.

Anyway, I think magic was always intended to be more about exciting fantasy crap rather than a pure test of skill - there are better games for that. And, I personally find combat steps more thrilling than the alternative.

Maybe some nuance has left recent cards. But if MTG were a movie, I wouldn't say it's exactly Michael Bay material until "Explosion" is a creature type.

I think Berserker is the best follow-up to the Stromkirk at the moment. Arc Trail and Doom Blade are pretty great at helping Noble connect early, too.

Quote from swiftyman

I think the main reason is because it gains you no value if you have to follow it up with a DOJ in the next couple of turns. Most of the aggro decks right now drop multiple threats by turn 4 and it doesn't make any sense to tap out for a blade splicer if you need to DOJ next turn anyways.

That's a really good point too. Sun Titans can always recur a Splicer, but until that point/if you don't have any, that's probably not the best way to play out your cards.

U/W control is predominantly permission-based right now, since it's been putting up better results than tap-out builds that would rely on a card like Blade Splicer. They'd probably prefer to leave counter-mana open, and stop a Hero of Bladehold from hitting the table, instead of being left with a weaker threat can't always finish a game alone. Because, then, they'll have to tap more mana on their turn to O-Ring the Hero or something, and have less counter mana to stop the next threat.

Quote from sucreality

I really don't feel like saying it here but I feel, honestly, that Venser isn't worth basing a deck around... yet. It is too slow by itself and doesn't do anything on an empty board. I've tried both Bant and Esper versions but both are pretty subpar as there simply isn't enough cards in the current card pool to support him right now. Yes, we've gained Solemn Simulacrum, but the loss of Sea Gate Oracle and Wall of Omens is really hard to continue this strategy. I've tried replacements in the form of both Ichor Wellspring,Mycosynth Wellspring,Trinket Mage and Phyrexian Rager but none of them are as good as the ones that rotated.

I agree, the loss of Sea-Gate Oracle was pretty huge. And, it does seem like a poor climate for Venser, considering to justify 5 CMC you want a powerful effect as soon as he comes down. I'd take a Sleight of Hand that gives +2 loyalty. A 3/3 from Blade Splicer is decent, but that means I have to run Blade Splicer. Stonehorn locks are neat, but that means I have to run Stonehorn Dignitary. While they can be okay cards, the interactions can be disrupted, and what am I left with then? If I successfully played a Sea-Gate Oracle, I at least got a card back.

That's not the end for Venser decks though, I still like him as a 1-of in U/W aggro-control decks. He acts as an alternative win-con and doubling titan's effects can be devastating.

I'm going to continue with tap-out lists that include Venser. Currently my list is more midrange control, and I think I'm just going to use him as a singleton. I have enough cards to interact with him to get benefits, but I don't want to have to rely on him right now.

About the Frost Breath/Feeling of Dread, wouldn't running Tumble Magnets instead of Frost Breath be better? Colorless, and you can reset the counters with Venser, the Sojourner.

While it's true Tumble Magnet has endurance, and can be reset, I was simply considering mana cost. Sometimes aggro won't care about 1 creature getting tapped on turn 3/4. Two creatures earlier, and with another use, could buy enough time to draw that DoJ.

However, if you're running other cheap removal, i.e. Gut Shot or Dismember, you can probably just use that for turns 1 and 2 and still drop Tumble Magnet turn 3.

I'm not sure how much I like Gut Shot. I'm not going to complain about killing a bird, stromkirk or other annoying x/1 dudes or illusions...but I feel like Vapor Snag is just a little more useful. If targets are out of killing range, or my opponent successfully ramped into a Hero of Bladehold anyway, Snag can still buy me the time I need when Gut Shot might fall short. If you really need to deal with inkmoth, you always have ghost quarter, no?

How do you feel about Feeling of Dread, as opposed to Frost Breath? I think splitting it into two castings at the lower cost can be very useful; it's early enough to interact with Tempered Steel and still annoys Wolf Run (tap a Titan before attackers). True you won't get any added benefit from Snapcaster in this regard, but TBH I think he's less useful in a list with fewer counterspells. I'd suggest going to 2.

I've noticed the U/W permission list to be a toughie for Venser, since we want to tap out often, and getting all our stuff countered can be annoying. I'd suggest getting some Dissipates and/or Negates in the SB to help this matchup, but that won't help your game 1, obviously.

Actually, I'm thinking Venser is best sideboarded out entirely against most control decks. I think Karn Liberated is much better-suited to that match, since I think it's possible for Venser to come into an empty field. Karn will at least be able to impact things from the get-go, alone.

Do you really find swords to be worth it in the SB? Honestly, I wouldn't bother if not mainboarding, but that's just me. Personally I'd consider these other cards I've mentioned to help that control matchup.

As far as that game 1 vs U/W goes...I'm not sure there's much MB work you can do without changing your overall gameplan. You might have to accept that as a bad matchup?

Quote from Warrior57

If a card has no board impact at all on its own (like you noticed with Venser) and needs you to "topdeck" important cards it´s either a combo card (which immediately (!) wins you the game) or simply not worth playing. He´s only impressive if you already have powerful cards on board.

I played against some u/w decklists which tested him - and it became clear fast that it´s much better to simply play another titan/finisher instead.

You play Venser in a deck that is already using cards that he'd apply himself to. You don't just throw him in U/W and complain he's not a Titan. If you have no permanents he can interact with, then you probably lost the game anyway, because somehow you have no creatures or artifacts by the time you have 5+ mana and can play him.

Quote from LimDuhl

But I'm fearing something...What can red do against enchantment's?
When I imagine white/blue is just a house in this kind of permanent's...
Or does anyone belive Koth Deck could be two coloured as well?

Maybe Koth gets a Ratchet Bomb and similar goodies. I do believe he ought be mono red, though.

Quote from tadiou

I'm not to disagree with you on the first half, but not all of legacy is 3 turns... It's a gross fallacy that the game is strictly determined to be 3 turns.

Okay, you're right. That was unfair.

However, I do think some players are intimidated by how quickly they can get blown out of the water by some fast combo.

Quote from slipknot72102

Also most players who play solely in eternal formats don't give wotc any money unless a GP has that format. Remember that wotc doesn't make any money in the secondary market.(which they should invest in because according to hasbro wotc isn't really making much money)

I was under the impression the cards still came from wotc at some point, and interest in their game still brings customers, which is regardless in their favor. But I suppose I don't really understand the intimacy of it all.

Maybe the different formats have different playstyles, so that the game can appeal to a variety of people? We're stilling getting cards that apply to Legacy, like Stoneforge Mystic and Snapcaster Mage, so Wizards is getting money from Legacy players. But, if people don't like 3-turn games, they at least have the option of other formats, giving Wizards more money.