I agree with Dovin's Veto and Teferi, I also think Gideon's Triumph is worth testing.
I don't really understand the Narset hype though? What is she such 'amazing' sideboard tech against?
3 Mana sorcery speed bad impulse doesn't seem worth a card to me, and that's what she will be most of the time. If you can ever get 2 impulses out of her, or deny your opponent a card plus get an impulse it will be good, but I don't see the matchups where this is actually game-breaking, which is what sideboard cards need to be, imo.
What do you all think of Blast Zone? I think it has a lot of potential for UW in particular. Field of Ruin is still the premiere colorless land and you probably add 4 FoR before adding a single blast zone, but UW has always had a single flex land spot it could fit into, and I even kind of like going up to 26 lands to play 2.
Blast zone is very powerful, it could definitely find it's way into our lists. Ironically, the existence of blast zone makes us want to play high numbers of field because blast zone is good against us as well; we give our opponents unlimited time to get to 4 counters to prepare in advance for our walkers. This card is going to make our Tron matchup harder.
I'm not sure how many we can play, but this would definitely take the slot over Ghost Quarter that some lists play (I don't think they should have been playing GQ in the first place, but whatever).
I will definitely be testing it as a 1-of in 25 Land lists and 2-of in 26 Land lists as you suggested.
No matter which deck I read here or in discords, all of them think they have more benefit from new rule. So I am sceptical. By the way, only a opinion of a non uw player. We will see in the future which decks are really favored after London. Each deck has cards which they won't in opening hand or cards they need in opening. This is not really a benefit, it's normal with new rule
Exactly. Every deck needs the right mix of land/spells/curve-considerations. It will benefit everyone that way, and us the least since we can't take advantage of the better mulligan options in game 1.
The only way it benefits UW differently than anyone else is that it can let us put terminus back into the deck, increasing the odds of drawing it after a shuffle effect. There may be other decks that actively want to put a card back (Maybe Nahiri-Emrakrul or Madcap-Emperion for example) which might also benefit in this way but they aren't popular at the moment (or I'm not thinking of it off top of my head).
London won't necessarily be representative of which decks benefit from the new mull since decklists will be available throughout the tournament to all players. This advantages reactive decks more than other lists in game 1s so any result where control decks come out on top should he taken with a grain of salt.
The London mull is good for terminus but medium for control overall; Our game 1 mulligan decisions are not highly impacted by the new mull rule because we don't know what we need to react to. Other decks have a clear mulligan plan despite not knowing what the opponent is on.
Game 2 and game 3 the new mull is good for us because we have really high impact sideboard cards and we will have a clearer mulligan plan since we know the opponents archetype by then.
Esper Charm is always good, I don't think there's anything about the current meta that makes it better than usual. I'd say charm gets better as the format gets slower and I don't think that's the case; with the new mulligan in effect everyone is trying to combo-kill as fast as possible.
I'd like to hear an argument for why Push is good right now too. I don't see much of an argument over why Push is better than Condemn currently; there aren't a ton of ability-creatures right now, most decks are attacking to win. Condemn is much better against Titan decks, much better against pheonix, better against dredge etc. Bob, Teeg and pyromancer aren't running the format rampant so I wouldn't say push is especially well positioned either.
There isn't really a good reason to be Esper over UW right now. It's just a style of deck that everyone loves and when it gets any share of coverage people get a little over zealous.
If you're in doubt you should probably draw because when it's wrong it can't be nearly as big a mistake as making your opponent discard when the discard mode is wrong. This is because you may have misinterpreted a play, leading you to think they had something else. Or you didn't consider that you will need a specific answer on a specific turn. Or you over valued your other sources of card advantage.
I think the default mode should be to draw unless you're in a commanding position with another source of card advantage.
Of course there are many factors to consider; is your opponent likely to hold cards specifically to discard to charm? Does the opponent have any relevant enchantments in their deck? Do you have another source of card advantage? Is there a key turn in the matchup where you will need to have a specific piece or multiple pieces of interaction? Will you have the extra Mana to make them discard later in situations where you could draw now?
I definitely think you need to be incorporating growth spiral or some other draw to green; decay, trophy and pulse don't seem like good enough reasons to be green over white. Detention sphere, path to exile and timely reinforcements will almost always be better versions of the green cards in your list. You would also get access to teferi and excellent sideboard cards.
Spiral on the other hand is an effect that Esper and grixis can't replicate if you want to be base UB with a splash
My main suggestion would be to cut a snapcaster or find room for a pair or more of Opt. Opt makes snapcaster much more flexible and without it we often have to make a tough decision on whether or not to mainphase a snap-serum. Snap-serum is a fine play and probably under valued overall but snap-opt is much better when facing opposing planeswalkers or ambushing an x/2 or less.
I think disallow is probably not optimal either, but it's not egregious. Ghost quarter is pretty ugly as well; we aren't really trying to color screw anyone anymore.
My suggestion would either be to find room for opts via -1 ghost quarter -1 disallow +2 opt (24 land is ok with 4 serum, 2 opt, 2 Azcanta and a remand).
Or -1 snapcaster + 1 heiroglyphic illumination/ancestral vision (with only 2 Jace and cutting a snap means you probably need something else that will provide card advantage).
The only other comment I have would be that it seems you are undervaluing Angels outside of the burn match; it's very good against go-wide decks (including dredge) and Pheonix.
Depends what you mean by need, that's why budget discussions are tough. I would say all UW control lists need colonnade and you disagree based on budget.
So do you need Minamo? Well it definitely makes ojutai better, but I would spend money on colonnade before Minamo.
If you do decide to go ojutai, give blessed alliance a shot. It works as both removal and protection.
People are clamoring over Veto because they don't realize the actual cost of the second color requirement; Take a look a pro's UB lists from the last decade and you will see that even in aggressive UB strategies like Faeries (Yuta Takahashi is prime example) and count the number of negate vs countersquall - among pros it's zero squall.
Of course uncounterable is worth more than 2 life in most scenarios, but it's not a strict upgrade over negate in decks with quadruple color requirements and multiple colorless sources. You're going to want negate more often against aggressive strategies so that you can double spell earlier and against controlling or combo decks you're going to want Veto. This makes me think that the first obvious spot for Veto is replacing some number (maybe all) of negate in the sideboard.
There's a lot of variability in the last 5 or so slots in UW which are often occupied by filler cards like snare, absorb , settle the wreckage, 1st and 2nd sphere, heiroglyphic, serum visions, ancestral visions, Gideon of the trials. It could easily replace some of those cards.
I'll probably start with slotting it right into a pretty typical shell and eventually test it with verdict over terminus, serum over opt. Extra ousts or other sorcerys if I can find something interesting without getting too off track (I have other pet ideas like going all in on tef3 with counterbalance and scry sorceries, but they don't look anything like typical UW so I don't think this is really the place to go into them).
Do y’all think the new Teferi deserves a spot main deck?
I'm putting him in my main as a 2-of to test out as soon as it's available on mtgo. I also pre-ordered my physical copies because I do believe it is playable in modern UWx decks (also, and maybe more so, in legacy and standard, but that's beyond the scope here).
In addition to the floor literally being draw a card, the floor is debilitating vs midrange, control and combo.
Creature decks:bounce a creature, draw a card, trade for an attack step.
Control decks: turns off all counterspells
Combo decks: turns off their reactive elements (think vines of vastwood in response to path to exile or think pact of negation, or shutting down the ability to eot gifts ungiven)
It's also serviceable burn decks - not being able to bolt it during our turn saves extra tempo, taking skullcrack offline and not allowing them to overload our Mana and counters by saving spells to go off on our eot and again on their turn.
Against Pheonix its pretty mediocre but it has some value in negating their surgical in response to our surgical or our snaps as well as forces them to flip titi on their own turn and turns of their countermagic post board.
The only matches I can think where I won't be happy it's in my deck will probably be dredge, Tron and valakut...but it can still cycle for 3 Mana with really thin value in these matches as well.
Dreadhorde Invasion is the first amass card that looks like it could help us. It's a 2 drop zombie (sort-of), always on the lookout for those! It makes sure we get a chance at rebuying gravecrawlers every turn and hopefully it there is another amass card or two we might be interested in.
I also think the Sorin, Vengeful Bloodlord looks promising as well if you're into BW zombies; Re-animating a tidehollow sculler is pretty sweet, and lifelinking the team is going to put us ahead in racing situations since zombies are not the best blockers anyways
I definitely agree that the way the deck operates changes the way it's positioned, but I think that's fine based off the sheer power level of the card alone. I just don't think Teferi needs to survive very often against creature decks to make it a good play because of how much tempo it gains. UWs problems have always revolved around the mana-spent disadvantage in the early game and the bounce+draw really helps there.
I also agree that UW decks face more developed boards on T3 than BGx, Fatal Push and Discard definitely help that a lot, which is why I think Esper can utilize Teferi better. There are ways to combat that though, Tef3 makes cards like Oust so much better, not just because it helps develop that ideal board state for a turn 3 walker but because of the synergies with Tef3's +1 as well.
What do you guys think of Gideon's Triumph as well? 1W Instant - target opponent sacs a creature that attacked or blocked this turn. If you control a gideon they sac 2 instead. It's just a variant on Blessed Alliance I guess, which doesn't see a ton of play. You give up the ability to gain life for the ability to hit a blocker. Probably the life gain is more relevant. I think if you're playing gideon and snapcaster the 2nd creature sac may come up in rare instances as well.
Liliana of the veil also goes down to 1 loyalty, dying to a sneeze as you put it. Both walkers deal with a threat and get a cards worth of value. And both of them are very good against opposing control and combo decks using their non-minus abilities. The difference between them is that teferi hits more permanent types the turn it enters whereas Lilly has an actual ultimate. However I think the fact that teferi doesn't have a real ultimate isn't a huge deal because UW generally has inevitably going late over most decks.
Another reason why Tef is really good in creature matchups is that it curves into verdict.
It also has a lot of nice synergies if you wanted to switch off terminus and opt to serum and verdict. Which is nice.
I don't know if UW can utilize it quite as well as Esper though. Thoughtseize/Inquisition in the draw step is pretty absurd. So is instant speed lingering souls.
I agree with Dovin's Veto and Teferi, I also think Gideon's Triumph is worth testing.
I don't really understand the Narset hype though? What is she such 'amazing' sideboard tech against?
3 Mana sorcery speed bad impulse doesn't seem worth a card to me, and that's what she will be most of the time. If you can ever get 2 impulses out of her, or deny your opponent a card plus get an impulse it will be good, but I don't see the matchups where this is actually game-breaking, which is what sideboard cards need to be, imo.
Blast zone is very powerful, it could definitely find it's way into our lists. Ironically, the existence of blast zone makes us want to play high numbers of field because blast zone is good against us as well; we give our opponents unlimited time to get to 4 counters to prepare in advance for our walkers. This card is going to make our Tron matchup harder.
I'm not sure how many we can play, but this would definitely take the slot over Ghost Quarter that some lists play (I don't think they should have been playing GQ in the first place, but whatever).
I will definitely be testing it as a 1-of in 25 Land lists and 2-of in 26 Land lists as you suggested.
Exactly. Every deck needs the right mix of land/spells/curve-considerations. It will benefit everyone that way, and us the least since we can't take advantage of the better mulligan options in game 1.
The only way it benefits UW differently than anyone else is that it can let us put terminus back into the deck, increasing the odds of drawing it after a shuffle effect. There may be other decks that actively want to put a card back (Maybe Nahiri-Emrakrul or Madcap-Emperion for example) which might also benefit in this way but they aren't popular at the moment (or I'm not thinking of it off top of my head).
London won't necessarily be representative of which decks benefit from the new mull since decklists will be available throughout the tournament to all players. This advantages reactive decks more than other lists in game 1s so any result where control decks come out on top should he taken with a grain of salt.
Game 2 and game 3 the new mull is good for us because we have really high impact sideboard cards and we will have a clearer mulligan plan since we know the opponents archetype by then.
Esper Charm is always good, I don't think there's anything about the current meta that makes it better than usual. I'd say charm gets better as the format gets slower and I don't think that's the case; with the new mulligan in effect everyone is trying to combo-kill as fast as possible.
I'd like to hear an argument for why Push is good right now too. I don't see much of an argument over why Push is better than Condemn currently; there aren't a ton of ability-creatures right now, most decks are attacking to win. Condemn is much better against Titan decks, much better against pheonix, better against dredge etc. Bob, Teeg and pyromancer aren't running the format rampant so I wouldn't say push is especially well positioned either.
There isn't really a good reason to be Esper over UW right now. It's just a style of deck that everyone loves and when it gets any share of coverage people get a little over zealous.
I think the default mode should be to draw unless you're in a commanding position with another source of card advantage.
Of course there are many factors to consider; is your opponent likely to hold cards specifically to discard to charm? Does the opponent have any relevant enchantments in their deck? Do you have another source of card advantage? Is there a key turn in the matchup where you will need to have a specific piece or multiple pieces of interaction? Will you have the extra Mana to make them discard later in situations where you could draw now?
Spiral on the other hand is an effect that Esper and grixis can't replicate if you want to be base UB with a splash
I think disallow is probably not optimal either, but it's not egregious. Ghost quarter is pretty ugly as well; we aren't really trying to color screw anyone anymore.
My suggestion would either be to find room for opts via -1 ghost quarter -1 disallow +2 opt (24 land is ok with 4 serum, 2 opt, 2 Azcanta and a remand).
Or -1 snapcaster + 1 heiroglyphic illumination/ancestral vision (with only 2 Jace and cutting a snap means you probably need something else that will provide card advantage).
The only other comment I have would be that it seems you are undervaluing Angels outside of the burn match; it's very good against go-wide decks (including dredge) and Pheonix.
So do you need Minamo? Well it definitely makes ojutai better, but I would spend money on colonnade before Minamo.
If you do decide to go ojutai, give blessed alliance a shot. It works as both removal and protection.
Of course uncounterable is worth more than 2 life in most scenarios, but it's not a strict upgrade over negate in decks with quadruple color requirements and multiple colorless sources. You're going to want negate more often against aggressive strategies so that you can double spell earlier and against controlling or combo decks you're going to want Veto. This makes me think that the first obvious spot for Veto is replacing some number (maybe all) of negate in the sideboard.
I'll probably start with slotting it right into a pretty typical shell and eventually test it with verdict over terminus, serum over opt. Extra ousts or other sorcerys if I can find something interesting without getting too off track (I have other pet ideas like going all in on tef3 with counterbalance and scry sorceries, but they don't look anything like typical UW so I don't think this is really the place to go into them).
I'm putting him in my main as a 2-of to test out as soon as it's available on mtgo. I also pre-ordered my physical copies because I do believe it is playable in modern UWx decks (also, and maybe more so, in legacy and standard, but that's beyond the scope here).
In addition to the floor literally being draw a card, the floor is debilitating vs midrange, control and combo.
Creature decks:bounce a creature, draw a card, trade for an attack step.
Control decks: turns off all counterspells
Combo decks: turns off their reactive elements (think vines of vastwood in response to path to exile or think pact of negation, or shutting down the ability to eot gifts ungiven)
It's also serviceable burn decks - not being able to bolt it during our turn saves extra tempo, taking skullcrack offline and not allowing them to overload our Mana and counters by saving spells to go off on our eot and again on their turn.
Against Pheonix its pretty mediocre but it has some value in negating their surgical in response to our surgical or our snaps as well as forces them to flip titi on their own turn and turns of their countermagic post board.
The only matches I can think where I won't be happy it's in my deck will probably be dredge, Tron and valakut...but it can still cycle for 3 Mana with really thin value in these matches as well.
I also think the Sorin, Vengeful Bloodlord looks promising as well if you're into BW zombies; Re-animating a tidehollow sculler is pretty sweet, and lifelinking the team is going to put us ahead in racing situations since zombies are not the best blockers anyways
I also agree that UW decks face more developed boards on T3 than BGx, Fatal Push and Discard definitely help that a lot, which is why I think Esper can utilize Teferi better. There are ways to combat that though, Tef3 makes cards like Oust so much better, not just because it helps develop that ideal board state for a turn 3 walker but because of the synergies with Tef3's +1 as well.
What do you guys think of Gideon's Triumph as well? 1W Instant - target opponent sacs a creature that attacked or blocked this turn. If you control a gideon they sac 2 instead. It's just a variant on Blessed Alliance I guess, which doesn't see a ton of play. You give up the ability to gain life for the ability to hit a blocker. Probably the life gain is more relevant. I think if you're playing gideon and snapcaster the 2nd creature sac may come up in rare instances as well.
Another reason why Tef is really good in creature matchups is that it curves into verdict.
It also has a lot of nice synergies if you wanted to switch off terminus and opt to serum and verdict. Which is nice.
I don't know if UW can utilize it quite as well as Esper though. Thoughtseize/Inquisition in the draw step is pretty absurd. So is instant speed lingering souls.
I think the new teferi has a lot of potential.