Yeah, i like your deck setup. Tithe & Mox Diamond has good synergies. Tithe can also be utilised effectively with fetches other than the Mox.
I have been thinking of a way of replacing Aether Vial in maindeck, and Mother, Tithe & Mox seems like choice. However i might replace 4xKnight of the White Orchid with 2x Sliver Knight & 2x White Knight.
How is your deck test for this build so far?
Really good, it's been unchanged for ages, which is a good sign
I replace chrome mox with a 4th mox diamond
1st turn 2 mana and 2nd turn white orchid knight and 2 floating mana (4 in total, effectivley allowing 5 mana for 3rd turn) is always good, and draws alot of land out of your deck in 3 to 4 turns also allowing you to get equipment out and attached fast
I now use something similar in my solder deck and it's evil
Tithe and mox also helped me win against an Armageddon prison deck
The idea is to always start 2nd, then you can do this 1st turn
T1: mox, discard a land, tithe, play a land,
T2: play white orchid, search a land and put it in play, then play a land from your hand
The mox/tithe setup gives me far less land issues and mulligans - and in essence a far more reliable start than a vial - and in some respect, faster
I think by now it has been established which of the knights are the usual "suspects". Good to hear Mom is working well in your deck. I just brought a set of Moms and will try them too.
I feel the matchup against Zoo is unfavourable as they simply have way too many removals than us. Their creatures is cheaper and bigger as well. In most games my Zoo opponent does not even bother to remove the equipments as they can simply kill all my creatures. To make it worse, even a typical knight equipped with SoFI & SoLS is not big enough to kill Tarmogoyf. They probably have 10 removal spells or more for my Knight Exemplar so dont count on it sticking around for even a few turns. Mirran Crusader suffers the same fate with Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Path to Exile and Swords to Plowshares all over the place.
Some of the best ways to play Zoo will be to resolve a Jitte or Elspeth to stall the board PLUS killing their first turn Nacatl. I always kill the cat whenever i sees it. Never allow Nacatl to deal early damage as Zoo can easily finish you off before you can set up your board. Zoo is also fast in clearing their hand and relying on topdeck mode unlike our deck which tend to have more "gas" thanks to the Stoneforge toolbox & Elspeth.
Sideboarding Retribution of the Meek will be key in removing their biggies. Your StP and PtE will be sufficient in taking out their Wild Nacatl and Grim Lavamancer. From there you should have more "gas" to finish off your Zoo opponent.
Privileged Position has a nasty ability but at 5cc it is too expensive so i dont know how i can utilise it. It is too expensive as a maindeck card and i'm not sure how i can sideboard him. I dont think i'll ever use him. At 5cc i want a bomb, and this is not a bomb. This is probably a card which will enhance an already winning board. Take note that the card is useless if you dont have a strong board. It doesnt do anything if you are struggling in a game and is looking for a solution.
Thanks for suggesting this 2 cards, however as per my analysis i wont be adding it into the primer. Please let me know if my opinions on them needs to be corrected. I'm more than keen to find deserving cards to add into the primer.
just wanted to add my mono white Mommy's Knights to your list
Mom is a key card. She protects your Knights from removal and makes them immune to damage when blocking until they are made indestructable. When this happens she then gives them protection from the opposing blockers making sure they get through. Just add equipment for even more control
In a matchup against Zoo it was just to rough, I need to work on that and will hopefully report some findings soon. Maybe i got unlucky as i didnt draw into any PtE or StP. My hand just wasnt as quick as what it sometimes is - any way that was just one match against Zoo. I need more than 1 before i make any deep analysis.
Mom is a key card. She protects your Knights from removal and makes them immune to damage when blocking until they are made indestructable. When this happens she then gives them protection from the opposing blockers making sure they get through. Just add equipment for even more control
@Gallimar: Your list looks a lot better, but like others I recommend against Squadron Hawk. It's a great card in standard, but it just doesn't make the cut in Legacy, and certainly not in a tribal-ish deck. I would cut them for 3 Mirran Crusader. If you can attach a Sword or a Jitte to it and swing, then you've automatically gained a huge advantage. 4 Counters on Jitte? Deal 4 damage to a creature or player and draw 2 cards with SoFaI? Gain 6 life and return 2 creatures from the grave with SoLaS? Plus, it has relevent protection, from Black and Green. One other thing I see is that you might want 1 or 2 more lands, I don't think 20 is really enough, since you have to equip stuff too. I've cut Elspeth from my current build because 4 mana is too much for me with everything else, and simply run a Neurok Hoversail in my Stoneforge Package to get around Moat. Elspeth's a great card, but in my deck I found her to be too much over the curve to work. I run 23 lands in my current build (Horizon Canopy helps against mana flood), and I'd recommend at least 22. Also, why so many fetchlands? I run 3 for Knight of the White Orchid shenanigans (sac the land, then Vial in Knight in response), but 8 is way too many imo. I think it's been shown statistically that deck thinning from fetchlands is insignificant.
The Puresteel Paladin deck idea didn't really work out as planned, so I changed it back closer to the original build. Here's what I have now:
however they have taken counter spells and have absorbed the most burn compared to any of my other creatures when an equipment is sitting on the table - they work, on paper they look rubbish, but they do work! when someone kills a bird with a jitte on it, youy know you have 3 more in your hand for them to think about, making them think about that and the indestuctible knights and a mother makes it very hard for them to make desicions about removal and the opposing artifact equipment on the table
Still testing the addition of esplith on my deck.... sure she costs 4.... but she only costs 4 once, allowing more board presence. When equiping something a turn early simply wont do, its time to cast her - She also has the ability to give creatures flying, just like your artifact equipment
i need to update my deck as i am running more lands now. but not much more, however i have never had a mana issue in this deck,
Mirran Crusader may make it into the deck, but the birds are still winning me games and give me card draw, deck thinning and creatures
RE: deck thinning - Birds, Orchids and Stoneforges and fetches all in one deck speed this process up, - Granted Fetchs on their own dont do much, But all these together do
ive won games with mother, birds and stonforges; before even playing into the knights package, within my knights deck theres a small package based around the reliability of the birds alone. Can anyone say engineered plague? (respectivley white can deal with E.Plague very well lol)
people shouldnt under-estimate the birds ability and what threat it puts into the opponents head when coupled with an equipment piece and hand full of other birds - its changed players tactics, in focusing on removing my birds and equipment, whilst the knights slowly build on the ground; and if they target my knights, i got a bird in the air with a jitte backed with a swords to plowshares against any blockers
birds are very cheap to get hold off, i recommend you try them in your decks, it wont cost an arm and a leg and youll see new tactics open up. youll also notice that when you have one on the table, youll have backups to fire and attract removal and how much attention they get when equipment is on the table leaving you free to do other things with your knights
the birds also give something for aether vial to do when youve emptied your hand
now lets look at legacy and the amount of creature removal people use in decks (swords to plowshares mainly, but theres plenty out there in the format)
scenario
=========
Ok so youve got a crusader out with a jitte on it (swords answers it)
Ive got a bird with jitte on it (swords stalls it but it will happen again soon, i may even give it protection from white using mother)
scenario 2
=========
You got a flying double striking knight somehow with a jitte on it
i answer that with bird, mother, protection from white and block / or use swords
at minimum you should Run mother in your deck to protect your knights from removal. There is to much of it in Legacy to ignore her tender breasts of life
it important to note that people who play serious legacy usually have creatures with some type of evasion, usually this is flying. birds can chump block any of those that fly, for the next 3 turns also as they summon each other into your hand, but when backed by mother, you got yourself a solid flyer, mother also gives it protection from being blocked by giving it a protection from the colour of your choice. Just add equipment
I dont think knights could handle some situations in legacy without having some creatures with built in abilitys to fly. There is Leonin Skyhunter in the shape of a knight, but if i want a flyer, i usally want a few more to, so its preference of play. the birds definatley work for me. Anyhow, if they can deal with a bird, it also means they can deal with Leonin Skyhunter (Unless Exemplar is on the field) - So i like to fill my hand with a backup plan
If you rule the sky, and have equipment out, its pretty much game. you can free up mother for more usefull advantages on the ground or to sit and wait for the removal spell - Mother is part of the core.
I am tempted to say Knight of Meadowgrain is part of the core, as a lifelink first Striker can always get you out of trouble and makes a good blocker that gives life especially when indestructable, hes definatley won me a game and puts people off attacking, and when protected by mother and given +3/+3 by Elspeth on turn 4 is a massive life giver whilst doing decent 1st strike damage
White Orchid depends on your mana base, if its strong, you dont really need him abd becomes more redundant with vial. However he does draw more land out of your deck and can help get Elspeth into play - and he has a good synergy with Vial to if you play it right.
Try your decks with this core and let me know how you go.
If you want a Deck Name its called "Mommy's Knights" - She is the key card, she protects your knights, then when your knights become indestructable and can look after themselves, she gives them protection from the blocking creatures colour of your choice
If you are lookin for a creatureless build I would consider splashing white for enlightened tutor then having options for tutor targets in bridge (as you mentioned), noetic scales, cruicible +wasteland lock as well as the underworld dreams.
Generaly I find most counter/control decks a good MU. They need land and cards in hand and you hit both of those quite hard.
I wouldnt add extirpate. Runing a card to protect tombstalker is great but chances of them drawinganother and you drowing another stalker are not all that high as you have other threats as well; even if they do the extra life is some compensation. I think I would rather see other forms of control if you are going for a slog it out with underworld dreams type approach.
Not 100% convinced on the dreams still (still not that much draw in the format and some could well be used before underworld dreams comes down) but it does fit with your SB; cut the dreams for anti aggro stuff when blue isnt played?
Yea I got all the options i want between the MD and the SB - will look at better ways of utilizing underworld dreams - version two will be posted tonight but it will pretty much look thwe same as its performing well, the mix of creature beats and underworld dreams timer seems to be working well, and when the swarm decks come out i got anti aggro waiting in the board
i found that ratchet bomb also destroys things like moat and ensnaring bridge if the other decks are playing lock - however moat doesnt effect tombstalker, but ratchet bomb is also nice to wipe out a crap load 0CC artifacts to and opposing leylines
I think im close to the best all round pox, and the Top has really payed off squeezing it in - its a must, cus alot of the time, you got each other in top deck - if you run enough lands, the top can fish for more swamps - when you can dig 3 cards in, you can usually create a 90% chance to pull one out for the next pox - and rearranging your control spells to come far out wieghs the usage of crucible - especially as GY hate is a massive SB threat in most decks
EDIT: @Gallimar - how are the underworld dreams working out for you? I think they are a bit slow for what they do but if it is a meta choice I understand. If the format is filled with Jace, Brainstorm and suchlike it could be ok but I still have my doubts. I think I would prefer a couple of thoughtsieze and - looking at the list - maybe a cabal pit.
I think its a solid choice - When has Legacy never had brainstorms in it or card advantage? - if your up against a deck that isnt running them it prolly doesnt run blue, and thats when you know you can cast TombStalker without counters - basically you need creatures for fast killing, but if they are a control deck, or have ways to block your creatures then its a timer on them
i wanted a creatureless way of doing damage, 4 smallpox = 4 damage if you can draw into that many, and each mummy pox shortens the life to a 3rd, so the clock is increased, but you have to have the board to be safe, its prolly worth running ensnaring bridges in the board instead of infest or engineered plague - ill play with that idea tonight
may also be worth adding Extirpate into my deck for when the 1st swords to plowshare takes a tombstalker away
I think im worried about creature control and removal - if they havent got that, the tombstalkers usually get them fast - so a non-creature based timer was needed and the rack is unreliable as people just fill up thier hands again
instead of adding underworld of dreams it maybe worth adding a mix of smoke stack and a crucible of worlds to make them sacrafice creature protectors, but then you have to make sure you target the hand for the last remaining removal
i guess my deck list is a version 1. I think version 2 will be better, however my pox deck slaughtered two Jace decks last night. When I had a duress, i didnt even target jace, i took a counterspell instead just to add insult to injury - when underworld dreams hit the table he folded
Dreams kind of forces decks to play in top deck mode and the top can hopefully get me ahead of the game
I prefer them to crucible of worlds, crucible seems to slow - and getting a mishra back from GY doesnt help if they can stop creature damage
However i think you will find yourself spoiled with choices in the early turns on how best to utilise your mana, there may be some turns whereby the possibilities is endless:
My experiences from my type 2 build, out of the 5 options it seems Squadron Hawk is the worst card to play most of the time.
Sword of Feast and famine allows you to do all of this so my answer is 2 and 3
but that also depends on what options are avaliable to you - In short, - The more choices the better.
gotta say i love the deck, some watchers said they really like it - im so happy I am now playing white, the control spells are very powerful.
Matchup to U.G.W. (2-1) Knights Win - Fight for board - The Indestructible Knights obsorbed the Tarmogoyfs / Mothers and equipped Hawks obsorbed the swords to plowshares and the equipment presence abosorbed Qasali Pridemage - But in the end, constant Indestructible Knights backed with Plowshares and Path to Exile wins - My blockers stop his aggro until I get aggro control and life link Knights on the table - its a long game, and control and board presence is key here.
Most of my Plowshares got eaten by UGW's counters - and he had to spend turns getting out his Qasali Pridemage trying to control the artifacts to come.
Each game lasted a long time, on the last one I knew his game plan. Once a couple of Qasali Pridemage had been summoned to kill vial and jittes, and his sowrds to plowshares on other numerous creatures i waited for the right moment to get Sword of Light and Shadow into play (which made my knight protected to his white removal and at the same time he didnt draw into his last Qasali Pridemage) , stuck it onto a lifelink first striking 5/5 indestructable knight and took game, using a mother to make it prot from green. He only had Green/White goldies on the field and a Goyf, but this life Gaining Knight was protected from it all, at 8 life a turn, even an all out attack from him wouldnt have really done much even if i chose not to block (However i had 2 indestructible blockers avaliable and some chump birds to last enough turns to take the 3rd game)
Really good, it's been unchanged for ages, which is a good sign
I replace chrome mox with a 4th mox diamond
1st turn 2 mana and 2nd turn white orchid knight and 2 floating mana (4 in total, effectivley allowing 5 mana for 3rd turn) is always good, and draws alot of land out of your deck in 3 to 4 turns also allowing you to get equipment out and attached fast
I now use something similar in my solder deck and it's evil
Tithe and mox also helped me win against an Armageddon prison deck
The idea is to always start 2nd, then you can do this 1st turn
T1: mox, discard a land, tithe, play a land,
T2: play white orchid, search a land and put it in play, then play a land from your hand
The mox/tithe setup gives me far less land issues and mulligans - and in essence a far more reliable start than a vial - and in some respect, faster
been playing with this and seems much better than vial, Let me know what you think
been thinking of board control against zoo
and its in the form of ratchet bomb or ghostly prison but im torn between the two
I need to start evaluating my matchups to define the perfect sideboard
Zoo - need a card to slow them down or kill the burst of 1cc creatures to get control but faster than a turn 4 ***
Need a card to destroy those decks that setup moat/challice of the void/trinisphere/smokestack
need a card to handle the GY
Need a card to handle Combo Decks
silence/Orims Chant could be good against zoo and combo, slowing zoo down a turn
Relic of Prognitus is a lovley card for GY hate
I got 4x Mental Mistep - which could be good against zoo as half the deck costs 1cc and good against high tide?
What do you think?
maybe a turn 2 chalice of the void?
GY hate or mill protection - Wheel of Sun and Moon
This could be nasty Privileged Position
Mom is a key card. She protects your Knights from removal and makes them immune to damage when blocking until they are made indestructable. When this happens she then gives them protection from the opposing blockers making sure they get through. Just add equipment for even more control
Encroach
Rancid Earth
on top of pox/smallpox/sink hole/wasteland
Will post results when i get them
Theres a bit of Mishra's Workshop in my Meta which is broken to hell and should be banned and lots of Zoo
The meta is just packed with non basic lands
I added 2 more land and took out the hawks for Mirran Crusader
I also took out sword of feast and famine and added a basilisk collar, to many 3cc equipments make them to exspensive to get out on to the table
In a matchup against Zoo it was just to rough, I need to work on that and will hopefully report some findings soon. Maybe i got unlucky as i didnt draw into any PtE or StP. My hand just wasnt as quick as what it sometimes is - any way that was just one match against Zoo. I need more than 1 before i make any deep analysis.
Mom is a key card. She protects your Knights from removal and makes them immune to damage when blocking until they are made indestructable. When this happens she then gives them protection from the opposing blockers making sure they get through. Just add equipment for even more control
Tainted Sigil
I dont like the kithikin knights or cat knights. Only humans please!
so many people object against my budgies
however they have taken counter spells and have absorbed the most burn compared to any of my other creatures when an equipment is sitting on the table - they work, on paper they look rubbish, but they do work! when someone kills a bird with a jitte on it, youy know you have 3 more in your hand for them to think about, making them think about that and the indestuctible knights and a mother makes it very hard for them to make desicions about removal and the opposing artifact equipment on the table
Still testing the addition of esplith on my deck.... sure she costs 4.... but she only costs 4 once, allowing more board presence. When equiping something a turn early simply wont do, its time to cast her - She also has the ability to give creatures flying, just like your artifact equipment
i need to update my deck as i am running more lands now. but not much more, however i have never had a mana issue in this deck,
Mirran Crusader may make it into the deck, but the birds are still winning me games and give me card draw, deck thinning and creatures
RE: deck thinning - Birds, Orchids and Stoneforges and fetches all in one deck speed this process up, - Granted Fetchs on their own dont do much, But all these together do
ive won games with mother, birds and stonforges; before even playing into the knights package, within my knights deck theres a small package based around the reliability of the birds alone. Can anyone say engineered plague? (respectivley white can deal with E.Plague very well lol)
people shouldnt under-estimate the birds ability and what threat it puts into the opponents head when coupled with an equipment piece and hand full of other birds - its changed players tactics, in focusing on removing my birds and equipment, whilst the knights slowly build on the ground; and if they target my knights, i got a bird in the air with a jitte backed with a swords to plowshares against any blockers
birds are very cheap to get hold off, i recommend you try them in your decks, it wont cost an arm and a leg and youll see new tactics open up. youll also notice that when you have one on the table, youll have backups to fire and attract removal and how much attention they get when equipment is on the table leaving you free to do other things with your knights
the birds also give something for aether vial to do when youve emptied your hand
now lets look at legacy and the amount of creature removal people use in decks (swords to plowshares mainly, but theres plenty out there in the format)
scenario
=========
Ok so youve got a crusader out with a jitte on it (swords answers it)
Ive got a bird with jitte on it (swords stalls it but it will happen again soon, i may even give it protection from white using mother)
scenario 2
=========
You got a flying double striking knight somehow with a jitte on it
i answer that with bird, mother, protection from white and block / or use swords
at minimum you should Run mother in your deck to protect your knights from removal. There is to much of it in Legacy to ignore her tender breasts of life
it important to note that people who play serious legacy usually have creatures with some type of evasion, usually this is flying. birds can chump block any of those that fly, for the next 3 turns also as they summon each other into your hand, but when backed by mother, you got yourself a solid flyer, mother also gives it protection from being blocked by giving it a protection from the colour of your choice. Just add equipment
I dont think knights could handle some situations in legacy without having some creatures with built in abilitys to fly. There is Leonin Skyhunter in the shape of a knight, but if i want a flyer, i usally want a few more to, so its preference of play. the birds definatley work for me. Anyhow, if they can deal with a bird, it also means they can deal with Leonin Skyhunter (Unless Exemplar is on the field) - So i like to fill my hand with a backup plan
If you rule the sky, and have equipment out, its pretty much game. you can free up mother for more usefull advantages on the ground or to sit and wait for the removal spell - Mother is part of the core.
I would say my decks core to success consists of:
1xUmezawa's Jitte
1xSword of Light and Shadow
1x A Sword for your Meta or a backup Jitte
1x A Sword for your Meta or a backup Jitte
I am tempted to say Knight of Meadowgrain is part of the core, as a lifelink first Striker can always get you out of trouble and makes a good blocker that gives life especially when indestructable, hes definatley won me a game and puts people off attacking, and when protected by mother and given +3/+3 by Elspeth on turn 4 is a massive life giver whilst doing decent 1st strike damage
White Orchid depends on your mana base, if its strong, you dont really need him abd becomes more redundant with vial. However he does draw more land out of your deck and can help get Elspeth into play - and he has a good synergy with Vial to if you play it right.
Try your decks with this core and let me know how you go.
If you want a Deck Name its called "Mommy's Knights" - She is the key card, she protects your knights, then when your knights become indestructable and can look after themselves, she gives them protection from the blocking creatures colour of your choice
Yea I got all the options i want between the MD and the SB - will look at better ways of utilizing underworld dreams - version two will be posted tonight but it will pretty much look thwe same as its performing well, the mix of creature beats and underworld dreams timer seems to be working well, and when the swarm decks come out i got anti aggro waiting in the board
i found that ratchet bomb also destroys things like moat and ensnaring bridge if the other decks are playing lock - however moat doesnt effect tombstalker, but ratchet bomb is also nice to wipe out a crap load 0CC artifacts to and opposing leylines
I think im close to the best all round pox, and the Top has really payed off squeezing it in - its a must, cus alot of the time, you got each other in top deck - if you run enough lands, the top can fish for more swamps - when you can dig 3 cards in, you can usually create a 90% chance to pull one out for the next pox - and rearranging your control spells to come far out wieghs the usage of crucible - especially as GY hate is a massive SB threat in most decks
I think its a solid choice - When has Legacy never had brainstorms in it or card advantage? - if your up against a deck that isnt running them it prolly doesnt run blue, and thats when you know you can cast TombStalker without counters - basically you need creatures for fast killing, but if they are a control deck, or have ways to block your creatures then its a timer on them
i wanted a creatureless way of doing damage, 4 smallpox = 4 damage if you can draw into that many, and each mummy pox shortens the life to a 3rd, so the clock is increased, but you have to have the board to be safe, its prolly worth running ensnaring bridges in the board instead of infest or engineered plague - ill play with that idea tonight
may also be worth adding Extirpate into my deck for when the 1st swords to plowshare takes a tombstalker away
I think im worried about creature control and removal - if they havent got that, the tombstalkers usually get them fast - so a non-creature based timer was needed and the rack is unreliable as people just fill up thier hands again
instead of adding underworld of dreams it maybe worth adding a mix of smoke stack and a crucible of worlds to make them sacrafice creature protectors, but then you have to make sure you target the hand for the last remaining removal
i guess my deck list is a version 1. I think version 2 will be better, however my pox deck slaughtered two Jace decks last night. When I had a duress, i didnt even target jace, i took a counterspell instead just to add insult to injury - when underworld dreams hit the table he folded
Dreams kind of forces decks to play in top deck mode and the top can hopefully get me ahead of the game
I prefer them to crucible of worlds, crucible seems to slow - and getting a mishra back from GY doesnt help if they can stop creature damage
- 1x Jitte
- 1x Squadron Hawk
Sword of Feast and famine allows you to do all of this so my answer is 2 and 3
but that also depends on what options are avaliable to you - In short, - The more choices the better.
gotta say i love the deck, some watchers said they really like it - im so happy I am now playing white, the control spells are very powerful.
Matchup to U.G.W. (2-1) Knights Win - Fight for board - The Indestructible Knights obsorbed the Tarmogoyfs / Mothers and equipped Hawks obsorbed the swords to plowshares and the equipment presence abosorbed Qasali Pridemage - But in the end, constant Indestructible Knights backed with Plowshares and Path to Exile wins - My blockers stop his aggro until I get aggro control and life link Knights on the table - its a long game, and control and board presence is key here.
Most of my Plowshares got eaten by UGW's counters - and he had to spend turns getting out his Qasali Pridemage trying to control the artifacts to come.
Each game lasted a long time, on the last one I knew his game plan. Once a couple of Qasali Pridemage had been summoned to kill vial and jittes, and his sowrds to plowshares on other numerous creatures i waited for the right moment to get Sword of Light and Shadow into play (which made my knight protected to his white removal and at the same time he didnt draw into his last Qasali Pridemage) , stuck it onto a lifelink first striking 5/5 indestructable knight and took game, using a mother to make it prot from green. He only had Green/White goldies on the field and a Goyf, but this life Gaining Knight was protected from it all, at 8 life a turn, even an all out attack from him wouldnt have really done much even if i chose not to block (However i had 2 indestructible blockers avaliable and some chump birds to last enough turns to take the 3rd game)
guess it was a game well played