When I was playing with Temur Charm, I noticed some stuff. The lower to the ground you are, the better the card gets. So you 3 cmc and less guys, you might want to try and give the card another go in your maindeck.
i hadn´t actually thought about that... i don´t know why. I just thought i should take it out since most decks cut it out completely. But that actually makes sense. I´ll reevaluate
So there hasn´t been much talk lately about the deck i feel. Is it probably not good enough to be running? I mean, i think it´s still really good, but since it hasn´t been popping up anywhere, i kind of had my doubts.
Still, the fact that it´s a R/G agro deck that´s running U for 4 resilient beaters, and a tonne of cheap counterspells, makes it so good against control decks it´s not even funny. On friday i was playing against control and was stuck on 3 lands, thinking about how i would crush the deck with the sideboard i had for it, and i didn´t even lose that game, he played an ugin with me stuck on 3 lands i still won (he was at 8 so my shaman and hasty knuckleblade delt pretty well with him).
For these and for other reasons, i´ve decided to play this deck at the ptq next weekend. But i do however have a dilema. Recently i switched from polukranos, stormbreath build, to basically a frost walker without flamewake phoenix build to see how it went. As arkaniss said, frost walker is the card we needed to be able to fight back against abzan agro (Before, they were playing 2 mana 3/3´s and we were playing 2 mana 2/1´s and 2/2´s. This card can give us a fighting chance against that deck in the early turns, which is great) but it´s real bad against tokens, (like... real bad), and i´m expecting the following decks to appear at the ptq:
-UX control
-R/G agro
-Abzan (all varieties i guess mostly agro)
-Mardu
-Constellation (either with whip or without)
-Boros agro
So i kind of liked the deck with frost walkers, but i also only played with it for one weekend. The sideboard was changed pretty heavily, i had to swap the anger of the gods for arc lightnings, since i was now playing more agro (still i liked the arcs). I took out 2 back to nature (probably a mistake) and i also switched 1 hunt the hunter for a savage punch since i had gone -3 polukranos -2 boon satyr and gone +4 frost walker. Still i had no clue how to sideboard with it.
Lists with frost walkers and flamewake are the lists that have been doing best lately, so maybe i should hop on the train this time around ( although the deck is playing without polukranos which actually stopped rhinos, and with almost no copies of stormbreath, which also stopped rhinos and other storbreaths, and that has me rather disturbed). Personally i think it taxes the mana a lot. Having to have U turn 2 and RR for turn 3 is pretty complicated i think. Are flamewakes good enough?
Regardless, i want to try to find the best sideboard possible against that meta. This is also really tough to do, not so much because of the meta, but because there is no one, best, defined temur agro list, and this also changes with every change of the main deck.
If we´re under the assumption that control is our best matchup, which it is, i think maybe the surrak dragonclaw and temur charms could be removed. What where you guys bringing the charms in against? Where surrak just for control decks? I remember seeing a list somewhere that did well in a daily that had 4 disdainful strokes and 3 surraks in the side. Maybe in place of surrak (or any other control sideboard card) you could consider monastery siege. Siege is a card you definitely don´t want as a 1 of, but maybe as a 2 of it´s good. It serves as the "sideboard slot" against control (both modes are great) but it can also come in against mardu and maybe burn? It gives the sideboard more flexibility I mean, thoughtseize costs 3, downfall costs 5, lightning strike costs 4, too bad crackling doom does´t target :/ still descent i think, i´m going to try it out, it´s like having "more cards" in a single sideboard slot.
Also, against mardu, i always had the issue of "do i bring in back to nature against their 4 chained to the rocks?" and i never did. Maybe reclamation sage is better. Still a 2/1, breaks the chained to the rocks, but is also pretty good against whip decks and i´d actually bring it in against control just to break prerilous vaults.
Against the agro decks, could feed the clan or winds of qal sisma even be considered? they´r the types of cards that could swing a game around, almost useless by themselves, but they have some potential right?
What do you guys think of something like the following against that meta?
Have we reached a somewhat general consensus of what cards are bad against what matchup? I still agree that against R/W and R/G -4 frost walkers is almost a given.
How have people been dealing with the likes of polukranos and siege rhinos now a days?
Ok coming from my own experience, the plan "play all my dudes" against mardu is just a mistake. They always have the answer. Unfortunately, the only way to actually beat them is (oh the irony) having more than one creature in play.
The big big problem here, either way, is that the typical sideboard is just a big fat mess against that deck, lets be honest. What are you gonna do? (in my case) Side in anger of the gods and hornet nests to kill their rabbelmasters, and seekers, just to get destroyed by sarkhans and butchers? Do i even bother bringing in back to nature against that stupid chained to the rocks they always have? How do i apply pressure early enough not to die to rabbelmaster but not to early because i´d rather have protection up against crackling doom for this last threat i have left in my hand?
Best card is probably disdainful stroke, and still that´s pretty underwhelming against crackling doom.
I'm running a build with 6 slots for something that isn't a creature. Four of those are going to be crater's claws. I'm looking for suggestions for the other two spots. I tried stubborn denial, and ended up with it getting blanked in the mirror. Any suggestions for main deck. Cards I was thinking of are:
Lightning Strike, really doesn't need any explanation.
Arc Lightning, added utility but at a higher mana cost. On the other hand, if you're going to use two mana for casting a spell their isn't much of a bonus for leaving one open if you don't have a use for it.
Barrage of Boulders, not so much for the one point of damage in most matchups as for the way to clear blocks.
Chandra Pyromaster. Expensive and in most cases will not kill a potential blocker. On the other hand it does have some upsides.
Any ideas?
Stubborn denial is really really good. I think barrage of boulders is mostly a sideboard card, temur charm already does something "similar" but can still counter or fight with something. Chandra i kind of like, in fact, in a more aggro build it´s better than most 4 drops if you have a board presence of course, since you can kind of curve out and once your opponent is on defense you can deny one blocker.
Maybe a split? something like 1 chandra 1 lightning strike? or 1 strike 1 arc lightning perhaps.
Ok so i 5-0´d the fnm last night, which was pretty satisfying since people were telling me the deck was bad and that i should change it (the guy who beat me in the finals of the WMCQ, just to add salt to the wound).
I beat mardu control, "normal" mardu (although i played incorrectly and almost lost), 2 abzan aggro (one a bit more midrangey) and 4 color whip.
going forward, i´m gonna try something along the lines of:
I´m also considering frost walker as a card should be included. It´s basically the 2 drop we needed to compete against abzan agros (insane) 2 drops. Unfortunately, i don´t like the fact that a single rabelmaster token can trump it completely. I´d probably cut the 2 temur charms and something else for 3 or 4 copies. It also clogs up the 2 drop slot (it´s already somewhat tough to know if one should play rattelclaw or heir t2)but it should probably be tested.
i´d suggest lightning strike main instead. It kills both soulfire, mentor and stuff from the abzan aggro decks, (lion and early deathdealer). As well as still killing seeker of the way and rabblemasters. I still love me some fall of the hammer although everybody hates it
you guys are looking at the shaman and analyzing the card in a vacuum, as usual, and overestimating the actual potential of other cards... as usual(like the new phoenix, which i think is pretty close to unusable in this deck), and not thinking about the board positions it could be good in.
In temur aggro (as in heir of the wilds, knuckles, polukranos, ashclouds and stormbreaths) this card is actually probably even better than ashcloud phoenix. With 4 of these in your deck, you´re able to have both knuckles and him as a turn 4 haster. Even on turn 3 after a rattleclaw, it´s better than ashcloud phoenix. And if you curve out, say t2 heir of the wilds, t3 knuckles, t4 him (this is pretty common, no magical christmasland here guys), he is really good. Like really really good. Your opponent either blocks him (most likely, since at that point few things kill knuckleblade, and heir is the one that deals least damage) or doesn´t. If he/she does, you get a 5/5 and a 3/3 and just keep on playing, and if he doesn´t block, that´s ok too.
The card can get out of hand very quickly, and that´s not to mention if you just land another one once the first gets dealt with. It´s like master of the waves, every single additional copy of this you play (hopefully in sequence) will be just backbreaking. Even if it only hits once, that´s already value in my book, since your opponent is not likely to want to take another hit from this thing, which will likely make him waste resources, tapping out, playing blockers etc, which is kind of what you want, since cards like temur charm and craters claws will make it real tough for your opponent.
The draw card mode is probably not too relevant. As MrSelkies said, is probably not too relevant (and shouldn´t be) early game. It´s most likely going to draw 1 or 2 cards at most per game (if you even activate it).
I´m not going to lie, the fact that he has 2 toughness is a BIG deal. it´s whats going to make the card not as good. The fact that insane cards like the monastary mentor and soulfire grand master etc, have been spoiled, are probably going to make things like magma sprayandmagma jet be played more often, which kind of sucks. Those cards were already good against this deck, and now they´re just gross. Aldo, boon satyr had the problem of being terrible against rhino... this is no different, and that´s sad
Moving forward, i´m going to have to guess, that this deck is going to want to HAVE to have 4 main deck stubborn denial. That is probably the most important card. Not playing threats on curve could actually be more important, since it allows you not to lose tempo in the long run. I would hate to go t4 shaman and just get magma sprayed. Unlike with ashcloud phoenix for example, if i had a t5 shaman with denial backup, i´d actually get to hit with it, as opposed to not hitting with the phoenix
PaBlItO, can you share your build? I'm looking into putting Temur together but I'd like more baseline for things that work over just throwing stuff together (like I kind of am now).
So i spent about an hour and a half writing about the choices of my decklist, just to press some button on the pc and have it close google chrome... not cool. Let´s try this again.
-I think the decks maindecking stubborn denial are the way to go. Countering elspeths, removals, thoughtseizes on turn 1, it´s great. Plus, now with all the mardu running around, it has gotten even more important in my opinion. Sometimes it can just lock up a game and because it´s so cheap, it allows you to keep playing while still having mana up for it (unlike temur charm, most of the time, since it costs 3)
-Surrak should just probably be a dragon. I love the flexibility of this card, flashing it in to block something, flashing it so that heir of the wilds can trample over to kill an elspeth or sarkan. Flashing it in eot against control with a denial backup is the best, countering the downfall (since they keep downfalls in hand against you) then playing an uncounterable knuckleblade with haste (and bounce mana) and hitting for 10. The thing is, your matchup is already really good against control and stormbreath has more protection (plus it has evation, surrak doesn´t)
-Craters claws: You definitely want this card, but most likely not as a 4 of. Kibler´s last take on the deck still plays 4 copies, but he has mentioned it´s possible he could cut it down to 3 copies. Being able to play a big threat and have this in your hand really gives you a good advantage since now you can both remove craetures and still attack + play other threats. It´s also a "pseudo win con", since if your opponents block incorrectly or don´t play around it, you can usually just dome them for 7-8 damage. It also kills elspeth, late in the game when they stabilize (happened to me on friday, topdecked the claws to stay alive).
-Temur Charm: 3 copies is probably too much. Don´t get me wrong, i love this cards. Some times it´s the card that just "wins me the game" and i just need to topdeck. I´ve been in that position and luckly i´ve drawn it and because because of that, i´ve never changed the numbers on it. It helps you win through caryatids, coursers, elspeths, hornet queen tokens, wingmate rocs and the likes (and that is if any one outside courser and caryatid even resolve through it). It´s also great if your opponent doesn´t have the answer for your early knuckleblade or if he or she stumbles a single turn, but 3 mana is expensive though and it´s what i usually side out when i´m on the draw, but that´s also because i don´t know how to sideboard most of the time
-Fall of the hammer. It´s a bad card on it´s own of course. But it´s not "fight" and it´s instant (as opposed to hunt the hunter and savage punch). I was looking for another removal spell and i was pretty pleased with it. The fact that your creatures are mostly bigger than theirs and that you´re playig heir of the wilds makes it so that it´s actually very descent (basically becomes murder with heir). I´ve killed Anafenzas, rhinos, polukranos, dragons, arbor colossus, coursers etc etc, with this card, whereas if it had been say lightning strike, it might not have worked out as fine. The thing is because this is such a tempo oriented deck being able to quickly deal with a threat while having counters or creatures with haste or that are difficult to deal with, becomes important, and that´s why i like this card. Some weeks ago, i had a heir in play and 3 lands, my opponent plays anafenza i eot boon satyr, and untap with fall of the hammer target heir and anafenza and hit for 7 with denial backup, it´s pretty much exactly what i need at that moment. The card is however mediocre against mardu and jeskai (particularly mardu) because of HOW MUCH removal they have, it basically becomes a dead card really early on, so much so, that it´s almost never reliable to kill say a goblin rabblemaster with it, and that´s it´s biggest downside (also, they can kill your creature in response but i still haven´t had that happen to me)
Sideboard is, weird. I should probably change it to something similar to what kibler is playing although i don´t like the chandra´s and nissas that much. Of course it depends on the meta and sideboarding is REALLY REALLY important.
How possible do you guys think it is, now with mardu being everywhere, literally to turn into a control deck post board without compromising the other matchups? Boon satyr and heir are probably disposable in that matchup (which makes rattleclaw draws probably less reliable than before, but hey), and temur is really good at switching geers (with the proper tools of course). The main problem i see is being able to kill both rabblemaster and butcher, survive through all the thoughtseizes, chained to the rocks and crackling dooms, and still win
By the way, on friday i played against a friend round 4, i was 3-0 and he was 2-1. He was playing mardu, and before the match started he said to me "geez i have no idea how to beat you" and i was like "...yeah, you don´t have to do much at all". Game one was something like the following: t2 heir, eot magma jet. Turn 3 knuckleblade, eot crackling doom. Eot 4 boon satyr, lightning stike it. Turn 5 Polukranos, Crakling doom. His turn rabblemaster and game 1 was over. It´s getting really troublesome... that crackling doom.
I´d actually consider playing rattleclaw OVER mystic in your build. Yes you can do t2 knuckleblade with mystic, but since your list is much more "midrangy", rattleclaw is probably better. It lets you turn 4 polukranos if you play it unmorphed, turn 4 surrak or stormbreath if you morph (and leaves you with 1 mana for denial, which is actually relevant since you play 4 maindeck), fixes mana and also can attack pretty well. Also, since you don´t have boon satyr, elvish mystic doesn´t do anything aside from t2 knucklebalde, that rattleclaw can´t do (t3 polukranos t4 dragon/surrak). I guess there is also t1 mystic into t2 morph rattleclaw and t3 you have 6 mana available, which still allows that play with denial backup. Don´t know how often it will happen though...
4 dig is probably too much, i´d play more temur charm, since it´s actually gets better with 4 polukranos, 3 dragon 2 surrak in the deck, this list is slightly slower, and because you´re never going to get to see that 1 copy you already have without scrying (plus digging through time to get it, is very situational)
I´ve been playing this deck as well, for quite a while. I won the KTK game day with it and the following two FNM´s in a row that came afterwards, plus i´m actually foiling it out since i like the deck so much (and RUG is my favorite 3 color combo) so expect to see me around for as long as this deck can be played
-anyone who is not playing Stormbreath over Sarkhan, is doing something wrong. Permanent ferocity enabler, pro butcher of the horde, mardu, jeskai AND abzan charm... it´s just better. I actually won the gameday cause i topdecked a dragon, whereas if it had been a sarkan i would have just hit for 4 and have it killed the following turn and then died.
-the lists that are playing courser and caryatid, i think probably shouldn´t be, at least not in temur agro. Courser is not the beater you want to have, although i actually like the thought of it in the side against aggressive decks, as i´ve read someone post here. It´s an interesting idea. This deck doesn´t gain life at all, and usually has(at least i have)a tough time with the land department. And getting to see more cards is obviously good, but ultimately i´m searching for a configuration with a good response to problematic cards and problematic decks, so lists containing any number of either, i automatically just skip
-Heir of the wilds is super strong. Basically auto 4 of in my mind, but that of course is what most people realized. I don´t think i´ve ever changed a number of copies up to 4 in a deck, as fast, as with this card. It connect early and mid-late game really well. In a deck wanting to play 4 power creatures, heir is exactly what the deck need to apply early pressure and to survive until you´re able to play your other creatures. It´s an incredible defensive and offensive creature. If you´re defending with a knucklebade... you probably are in need of more time. if you are defending with heir, it probably means that they have to kill it or else they wont win.
"Matchupwise"
-green/x devotion is a pretty bad matchup. They outclass your threats so easily. Basically if you don´t land a threat early, you´re in trouble. Hornet queen is the main issue. Polukranos and arbor colossus can be stopped with heir of the wilds (which is like the 2nd most important card against the deck). It can get in early damage and if you get multiples you can attack with one and leave one back to block. Most likely, the game will come down to a clogged board where you have to draw either a huge craters claw or a temur charm to swing with your flyers like ashcloud and stormbreath (which i hope you have), so of course, a great sideboard is needed.
In this case, i´ve seen barrage of boulders in some sideboards, which is ok but it mainly just kills elvish mystics and 1/1 deathtouch tokens. But I´d rather play anger of the gods to deal with the queen, the caryatids and the voyaging satyrs. Barrage of boulders is probably better as a topdeck than charm anyways because if you have a 4 power creature you might win on the spot, but the mana leak mode might make temur charm better just because of hornet queen.
Disdainful stroke is probably THE best card in sideboards, because if you plan land a early threat, preferably a knuckleblade, you can steer the game by countering the relevant cards and deploying your other threats as needed.
Hunt the hunter isn´t mentioned enough. Helps killing coursers, mana dorks, polukranos, and the likes. Also great against abzan.
Lastly hornet nest is another card i´m looking at. It´s great mostly against aggro, but it´s basically another heir of the wilds against green devotion. Unfortunately it doesn´t attack so it´s not that great, but it allows your creatures to "not have to block". You can also make it fight arbor colossi and polukranos just to get the tokens, as well as crater clawing it (only if extremely necessary, of course). it might very well be the "sideboard tech card", but it´s definitely not what you want to play turn 3 except against mono red.
-Abzan is pretty easy actually i think. Of course, rhino is a problem if you can´t kill it fast, since it enables roc the following turn, plus it´s real hard to play defense so early in the game. Outside of polukranos, almost nothing stops this thing. Yes, knuckles´s +2/+2 ability helps but, how long can you keep that going against removal, elspeths, sorins, more rhinos, etc? . Early thoughtseizes and efficient removal is a problem. But since they play so many tap lands and your threats are mostly bigger than theirs plus you´re playing denials, it should not be a problem.
-Mardu is a tough matchup. Problematic cards include: Elspeth, hordeling outburst, cackling doom, butcher (chained to the rocks can be a problem). I´ve lost to it 2 of the 3 times i played against it (mainly because of the mulligans to 5 and him killing my threats). the game i won was extremely close. The deck can deal a lot of damage with butchers and rocs and stuff. I actually sided in anger of the gods against my opponent who later said it was probably incorrect to do. It only kills rabbelmaster and hordeling outpost tokens. He was most likely right. The thing is, i have no idea how to sideboard against this deck. Usually just side in disdainful stroke´s and pray i draw a stormbreath and he either doesn´t have the cackling doom or i have a stubborn denial in hand as well.
I´ve also been playing this style of deck for some time now (gonna foil-out the things i can :)). It´s the only modern deck that has given me good results (4-0´d two back to back modern FNM´s, + some GPT tops) and i love the possibilities it allows.
So i was looking around a thread, and read that Epic experiment , cast for, for example, x=2, could let you cast both or either sides of a dragons maze split card, if at least 1 has cmc less than or equal to 2.
I found out in gatherer that a split card has 2 cmc in any zone other than in the stack and only 1 in the stack, and since epic experiment exiles, this should be possible.
I recently found this deck (and video deck tech and matches by kibler) as i was searching for a proper deck to take to a modern fest that is going to be held in argentina next week.
I usually hate naya and jund decks because they´re so linear and so "mainstream". The card that changed the way of thinking i had in regards to the deck is knight of the reliquary. After about 10 games playing with it, it quickly became one of my top 5 favorite cards and is what transforms this deck from "straight agro" to something slightly "comboish".
Anyways. The decklist i´m running is something like the following:
I still have real doubts about the mana base, sometimes i find myself without white mana. There is also no way to add black early on with shaman unless you give up the chance of adding red or white (which you usually need because of helix),
I did add to the original list, the qasali, an elspeth, an ajani and the helices. I also added the stronghold and the tectonic edges which are just AWESOME when you can kill a celestial colonnade or inkmoth nexus, a third blue source for the cryptic command, a tron piece etc etc.
I don´t own any goyfs, which i notice now is a REAL problem, since the only way to combat other goyfs is really 2 for 1 ing myself, smiter (and praying), path or a big unanswered knight of the reliquary, although shaman, ajani and elspeth could be a indirect answer to it.
I upped the number of walkers and added both thrun maindeck. Which decreased the amount of creatures, but actually does not bother that much since ticking domri rade up is good by itself.
The question i have is very alike the question someone else posted. Do i keep the cobras? Do i take them out for voices?
Do you guys think the 2 thrun main deck is a good call? We´ve already got 3 domri, 4 smiter and walkers against UWR, but playing it main deck could work out well i think.
Also a thing that came up the other night, the decision of playing t2 domri over smiter or vice versa. in which cases do you play which one? Against UWR for example, what would you do?
i hadn´t actually thought about that... i don´t know why. I just thought i should take it out since most decks cut it out completely. But that actually makes sense. I´ll reevaluate
So there hasn´t been much talk lately about the deck i feel. Is it probably not good enough to be running? I mean, i think it´s still really good, but since it hasn´t been popping up anywhere, i kind of had my doubts.
Still, the fact that it´s a R/G agro deck that´s running U for 4 resilient beaters, and a tonne of cheap counterspells, makes it so good against control decks it´s not even funny. On friday i was playing against control and was stuck on 3 lands, thinking about how i would crush the deck with the sideboard i had for it, and i didn´t even lose that game, he played an ugin with me stuck on 3 lands i still won (he was at 8 so my shaman and hasty knuckleblade delt pretty well with him).
For these and for other reasons, i´ve decided to play this deck at the ptq next weekend. But i do however have a dilema. Recently i switched from polukranos, stormbreath build, to basically a frost walker without flamewake phoenix build to see how it went. As arkaniss said, frost walker is the card we needed to be able to fight back against abzan agro (Before, they were playing 2 mana 3/3´s and we were playing 2 mana 2/1´s and 2/2´s. This card can give us a fighting chance against that deck in the early turns, which is great) but it´s real bad against tokens, (like... real bad), and i´m expecting the following decks to appear at the ptq:
-UX control
-R/G agro
-Abzan (all varieties i guess mostly agro)
-Mardu
-Constellation (either with whip or without)
-Boros agro
My list as of right now:
4 Savage knuckleblade
4 frost walker
4 heir of the wilds
4 shaman of the great hunt
2 Yasova dragonclaw
4 Rattleclaw Mystic
3 Ashcloud Phoenix
Non-Creatures
3 Wild slash
4 Stubborn denial
4 Crater's claws
4 Frontier bivouac
4 wooded foothills
2 shivan reef
4 yavimaya coast
3 Mountain
3 Forest
2 temple of abandon
2 temple of mystery
2 surrak dragonclaw
3 disdainful stroke
3 arc lightning
2 Hunt the hunter
1 Savage punch
2 Hornet nest
2 Temur charm
So i kind of liked the deck with frost walkers, but i also only played with it for one weekend. The sideboard was changed pretty heavily, i had to swap the anger of the gods for arc lightnings, since i was now playing more agro (still i liked the arcs). I took out 2 back to nature (probably a mistake) and i also switched 1 hunt the hunter for a savage punch since i had gone -3 polukranos -2 boon satyr and gone +4 frost walker. Still i had no clue how to sideboard with it.
Lists with frost walkers and flamewake are the lists that have been doing best lately, so maybe i should hop on the train this time around ( although the deck is playing without polukranos which actually stopped rhinos, and with almost no copies of stormbreath, which also stopped rhinos and other storbreaths, and that has me rather disturbed). Personally i think it taxes the mana a lot. Having to have U turn 2 and RR for turn 3 is pretty complicated i think. Are flamewakes good enough?
Regardless, i want to try to find the best sideboard possible against that meta. This is also really tough to do, not so much because of the meta, but because there is no one, best, defined temur agro list, and this also changes with every change of the main deck.
If we´re under the assumption that control is our best matchup, which it is, i think maybe the surrak dragonclaw and temur charms could be removed. What where you guys bringing the charms in against? Where surrak just for control decks? I remember seeing a list somewhere that did well in a daily that had 4 disdainful strokes and 3 surraks in the side. Maybe in place of surrak (or any other control sideboard card) you could consider monastery siege. Siege is a card you definitely don´t want as a 1 of, but maybe as a 2 of it´s good. It serves as the "sideboard slot" against control (both modes are great) but it can also come in against mardu and maybe burn? It gives the sideboard more flexibility I mean, thoughtseize costs 3, downfall costs 5, lightning strike costs 4, too bad crackling doom does´t target :/ still descent i think, i´m going to try it out, it´s like having "more cards" in a single sideboard slot.
Also, against mardu, i always had the issue of "do i bring in back to nature against their 4 chained to the rocks?" and i never did. Maybe reclamation sage is better. Still a 2/1, breaks the chained to the rocks, but is also pretty good against whip decks and i´d actually bring it in against control just to break prerilous vaults.
Against the agro decks, could feed the clan or winds of qal sisma even be considered? they´r the types of cards that could swing a game around, almost useless by themselves, but they have some potential right?
What do you guys think of something like the following against that meta?
3 Disdainful stroke
2 Hornet nest
2 Monastery siege
2 Reclamation sage
3 Arc lightning / barrage of boulders
2 Hunt the hunter
1 somthing
Have we reached a somewhat general consensus of what cards are bad against what matchup? I still agree that against R/W and R/G -4 frost walkers is almost a given.
How have people been dealing with the likes of polukranos and siege rhinos now a days?
Ok coming from my own experience, the plan "play all my dudes" against mardu is just a mistake. They always have the answer. Unfortunately, the only way to actually beat them is (oh the irony) having more than one creature in play.
The big big problem here, either way, is that the typical sideboard is just a big fat mess against that deck, lets be honest. What are you gonna do? (in my case) Side in anger of the gods and hornet nests to kill their rabbelmasters, and seekers, just to get destroyed by sarkhans and butchers? Do i even bother bringing in back to nature against that stupid chained to the rocks they always have? How do i apply pressure early enough not to die to rabbelmaster but not to early because i´d rather have protection up against crackling doom for this last threat i have left in my hand?
Best card is probably disdainful stroke, and still that´s pretty underwhelming against crackling doom.
Stubborn denial is really really good. I think barrage of boulders is mostly a sideboard card, temur charm already does something "similar" but can still counter or fight with something. Chandra i kind of like, in fact, in a more aggro build it´s better than most 4 drops if you have a board presence of course, since you can kind of curve out and once your opponent is on defense you can deny one blocker.
Maybe a split? something like 1 chandra 1 lightning strike? or 1 strike 1 arc lightning perhaps.
I beat mardu control, "normal" mardu (although i played incorrectly and almost lost), 2 abzan aggro (one a bit more midrangey) and 4 color whip.
going forward, i´m gonna try something along the lines of:
3 Crater´s Claw
4 Stubborn denial
2 Fall of the hammer
4 Rattleclaw mystic
4 Heir of the wilds
4 Savage knuckleblade
3 Yasova dragonclaw
2 Temur charm
4 Shaman of the great hunt
1 Ashcloud Phoenix
2 Polukranos, world eater
3 Stormbreath dragon
I´m also considering frost walker as a card should be included. It´s basically the 2 drop we needed to compete against abzan agros (insane) 2 drops. Unfortunately, i don´t like the fact that a single rabelmaster token can trump it completely. I´d probably cut the 2 temur charms and something else for 3 or 4 copies. It also clogs up the 2 drop slot (it´s already somewhat tough to know if one should play rattelclaw or heir t2)but it should probably be tested.
In temur aggro (as in heir of the wilds, knuckles, polukranos, ashclouds and stormbreaths) this card is actually probably even better than ashcloud phoenix. With 4 of these in your deck, you´re able to have both knuckles and him as a turn 4 haster. Even on turn 3 after a rattleclaw, it´s better than ashcloud phoenix. And if you curve out, say t2 heir of the wilds, t3 knuckles, t4 him (this is pretty common, no magical christmasland here guys), he is really good. Like really really good. Your opponent either blocks him (most likely, since at that point few things kill knuckleblade, and heir is the one that deals least damage) or doesn´t. If he/she does, you get a 5/5 and a 3/3 and just keep on playing, and if he doesn´t block, that´s ok too.
The card can get out of hand very quickly, and that´s not to mention if you just land another one once the first gets dealt with. It´s like master of the waves, every single additional copy of this you play (hopefully in sequence) will be just backbreaking. Even if it only hits once, that´s already value in my book, since your opponent is not likely to want to take another hit from this thing, which will likely make him waste resources, tapping out, playing blockers etc, which is kind of what you want, since cards like temur charm and craters claws will make it real tough for your opponent.
The draw card mode is probably not too relevant. As MrSelkies said, is probably not too relevant (and shouldn´t be) early game. It´s most likely going to draw 1 or 2 cards at most per game (if you even activate it).
I´m not going to lie, the fact that he has 2 toughness is a BIG deal. it´s whats going to make the card not as good. The fact that insane cards like the monastary mentor and soulfire grand master etc, have been spoiled, are probably going to make things like magma sprayandmagma jet be played more often, which kind of sucks. Those cards were already good against this deck, and now they´re just gross. Aldo, boon satyr had the problem of being terrible against rhino... this is no different, and that´s sad
Moving forward, i´m going to have to guess, that this deck is going to want to HAVE to have 4 main deck stubborn denial. That is probably the most important card. Not playing threats on curve could actually be more important, since it allows you not to lose tempo in the long run. I would hate to go t4 shaman and just get magma sprayed. Unlike with ashcloud phoenix for example, if i had a t5 shaman with denial backup, i´d actually get to hit with it, as opposed to not hitting with the phoenix
So i spent about an hour and a half writing about the choices of my decklist, just to press some button on the pc and have it close google chrome... not cool. Let´s try this again.
4 Heir of the wilds
4 Savage Knuckleblade
4 Boon Satyr
3 Polukranos, World Eater
3 Ashcloud phoenix
2 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Surrak Dragonclaw
3 Crater's Claw
3 Temur Charm
3 Stubborn Denial
2 Fall of the hammer
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Frontier Bivouac
3 Temple of Abandon
2 Temple of mystery
4 Yamivaya Coast
2 Shivan Reef
3 Mountain
3 Forest
3 Disdainful Stroke
3 Hunt the hunter
2 Hornet Nest
2 Magma Spray
2 Back to Nature
So, some things about the numbers and choices:
-I think the decks maindecking stubborn denial are the way to go. Countering elspeths, removals, thoughtseizes on turn 1, it´s great. Plus, now with all the mardu running around, it has gotten even more important in my opinion. Sometimes it can just lock up a game and because it´s so cheap, it allows you to keep playing while still having mana up for it (unlike temur charm, most of the time, since it costs 3)
-Surrak should just probably be a dragon. I love the flexibility of this card, flashing it in to block something, flashing it so that heir of the wilds can trample over to kill an elspeth or sarkan. Flashing it in eot against control with a denial backup is the best, countering the downfall (since they keep downfalls in hand against you) then playing an uncounterable knuckleblade with haste (and bounce mana) and hitting for 10. The thing is, your matchup is already really good against control and stormbreath has more protection (plus it has evation, surrak doesn´t)
-Craters claws: You definitely want this card, but most likely not as a 4 of. Kibler´s last take on the deck still plays 4 copies, but he has mentioned it´s possible he could cut it down to 3 copies. Being able to play a big threat and have this in your hand really gives you a good advantage since now you can both remove craetures and still attack + play other threats. It´s also a "pseudo win con", since if your opponents block incorrectly or don´t play around it, you can usually just dome them for 7-8 damage. It also kills elspeth, late in the game when they stabilize (happened to me on friday, topdecked the claws to stay alive).
-Temur Charm: 3 copies is probably too much. Don´t get me wrong, i love this cards. Some times it´s the card that just "wins me the game" and i just need to topdeck. I´ve been in that position and luckly i´ve drawn it and because because of that, i´ve never changed the numbers on it. It helps you win through caryatids, coursers, elspeths, hornet queen tokens, wingmate rocs and the likes (and that is if any one outside courser and caryatid even resolve through it). It´s also great if your opponent doesn´t have the answer for your early knuckleblade or if he or she stumbles a single turn, but 3 mana is expensive though and it´s what i usually side out when i´m on the draw, but that´s also because i don´t know how to sideboard most of the time
-Fall of the hammer. It´s a bad card on it´s own of course. But it´s not "fight" and it´s instant (as opposed to hunt the hunter and savage punch). I was looking for another removal spell and i was pretty pleased with it. The fact that your creatures are mostly bigger than theirs and that you´re playig heir of the wilds makes it so that it´s actually very descent (basically becomes murder with heir). I´ve killed Anafenzas, rhinos, polukranos, dragons, arbor colossus, coursers etc etc, with this card, whereas if it had been say lightning strike, it might not have worked out as fine. The thing is because this is such a tempo oriented deck being able to quickly deal with a threat while having counters or creatures with haste or that are difficult to deal with, becomes important, and that´s why i like this card. Some weeks ago, i had a heir in play and 3 lands, my opponent plays anafenza i eot boon satyr, and untap with fall of the hammer target heir and anafenza and hit for 7 with denial backup, it´s pretty much exactly what i need at that moment. The card is however mediocre against mardu and jeskai (particularly mardu) because of HOW MUCH removal they have, it basically becomes a dead card really early on, so much so, that it´s almost never reliable to kill say a goblin rabblemaster with it, and that´s it´s biggest downside (also, they can kill your creature in response but i still haven´t had that happen to me)
Sideboard is, weird. I should probably change it to something similar to what kibler is playing although i don´t like the chandra´s and nissas that much. Of course it depends on the meta and sideboarding is REALLY REALLY important.
How possible do you guys think it is, now with mardu being everywhere, literally to turn into a control deck post board without compromising the other matchups? Boon satyr and heir are probably disposable in that matchup (which makes rattleclaw draws probably less reliable than before, but hey), and temur is really good at switching geers (with the proper tools of course). The main problem i see is being able to kill both rabblemaster and butcher, survive through all the thoughtseizes, chained to the rocks and crackling dooms, and still win
By the way, on friday i played against a friend round 4, i was 3-0 and he was 2-1. He was playing mardu, and before the match started he said to me "geez i have no idea how to beat you" and i was like "...yeah, you don´t have to do much at all". Game one was something like the following: t2 heir, eot magma jet. Turn 3 knuckleblade, eot crackling doom. Eot 4 boon satyr, lightning stike it. Turn 5 Polukranos, Crakling doom. His turn rabblemaster and game 1 was over. It´s getting really troublesome... that crackling doom.
4 dig is probably too much, i´d play more temur charm, since it´s actually gets better with 4 polukranos, 3 dragon 2 surrak in the deck, this list is slightly slower, and because you´re never going to get to see that 1 copy you already have without scrying (plus digging through time to get it, is very situational)
I´ve been playing this deck as well, for quite a while. I won the KTK game day with it and the following two FNM´s in a row that came afterwards, plus i´m actually foiling it out since i like the deck so much (and RUG is my favorite 3 color combo) so expect to see me around for as long as this deck can be played
i´m glad people are at least coming to the same conclusions as i am. I also hate hornet queen, elspeth, crackling doom, arbor colossus and the likes :p.
In my mind though:
-anyone who is not playing Stormbreath over Sarkhan, is doing something wrong. Permanent ferocity enabler, pro butcher of the horde, mardu, jeskai AND abzan charm... it´s just better. I actually won the gameday cause i topdecked a dragon, whereas if it had been a sarkan i would have just hit for 4 and have it killed the following turn and then died.
-the lists that are playing courser and caryatid, i think probably shouldn´t be, at least not in temur agro. Courser is not the beater you want to have, although i actually like the thought of it in the side against aggressive decks, as i´ve read someone post here. It´s an interesting idea. This deck doesn´t gain life at all, and usually has(at least i have)a tough time with the land department. And getting to see more cards is obviously good, but ultimately i´m searching for a configuration with a good response to problematic cards and problematic decks, so lists containing any number of either, i automatically just skip
-Heir of the wilds is super strong. Basically auto 4 of in my mind, but that of course is what most people realized. I don´t think i´ve ever changed a number of copies up to 4 in a deck, as fast, as with this card. It connect early and mid-late game really well. In a deck wanting to play 4 power creatures, heir is exactly what the deck need to apply early pressure and to survive until you´re able to play your other creatures. It´s an incredible defensive and offensive creature. If you´re defending with a knucklebade... you probably are in need of more time. if you are defending with heir, it probably means that they have to kill it or else they wont win.
"Matchupwise"
-green/x devotion is a pretty bad matchup. They outclass your threats so easily. Basically if you don´t land a threat early, you´re in trouble. Hornet queen is the main issue. Polukranos and arbor colossus can be stopped with heir of the wilds (which is like the 2nd most important card against the deck). It can get in early damage and if you get multiples you can attack with one and leave one back to block. Most likely, the game will come down to a clogged board where you have to draw either a huge craters claw or a temur charm to swing with your flyers like ashcloud and stormbreath (which i hope you have), so of course, a great sideboard is needed.
In this case, i´ve seen barrage of boulders in some sideboards, which is ok but it mainly just kills elvish mystics and 1/1 deathtouch tokens. But I´d rather play anger of the gods to deal with the queen, the caryatids and the voyaging satyrs. Barrage of boulders is probably better as a topdeck than charm anyways because if you have a 4 power creature you might win on the spot, but the mana leak mode might make temur charm better just because of hornet queen.
Disdainful stroke is probably THE best card in sideboards, because if you plan land a early threat, preferably a knuckleblade, you can steer the game by countering the relevant cards and deploying your other threats as needed.
Hunt the hunter isn´t mentioned enough. Helps killing coursers, mana dorks, polukranos, and the likes. Also great against abzan.
Lastly hornet nest is another card i´m looking at. It´s great mostly against aggro, but it´s basically another heir of the wilds against green devotion. Unfortunately it doesn´t attack so it´s not that great, but it allows your creatures to "not have to block". You can also make it fight arbor colossi and polukranos just to get the tokens, as well as crater clawing it (only if extremely necessary, of course). it might very well be the "sideboard tech card", but it´s definitely not what you want to play turn 3 except against mono red.
-Abzan is pretty easy actually i think. Of course, rhino is a problem if you can´t kill it fast, since it enables roc the following turn, plus it´s real hard to play defense so early in the game. Outside of polukranos, almost nothing stops this thing. Yes, knuckles´s +2/+2 ability helps but, how long can you keep that going against removal, elspeths, sorins, more rhinos, etc? . Early thoughtseizes and efficient removal is a problem. But since they play so many tap lands and your threats are mostly bigger than theirs plus you´re playing denials, it should not be a problem.
-Mardu is a tough matchup. Problematic cards include: Elspeth, hordeling outburst, cackling doom, butcher (chained to the rocks can be a problem). I´ve lost to it 2 of the 3 times i played against it (mainly because of the mulligans to 5 and him killing my threats). the game i won was extremely close. The deck can deal a lot of damage with butchers and rocs and stuff. I actually sided in anger of the gods against my opponent who later said it was probably incorrect to do. It only kills rabbelmaster and hordeling outpost tokens. He was most likely right. The thing is, i have no idea how to sideboard against this deck. Usually just side in disdainful stroke´s and pray i draw a stormbreath and he either doesn´t have the cackling doom or i have a stubborn denial in hand as well.
I´ve also been playing this style of deck for some time now (gonna foil-out the things i can :)). It´s the only modern deck that has given me good results (4-0´d two back to back modern FNM´s, + some GPT tops) and i love the possibilities it allows.
Really awesome deck
So i was looking around a thread, and read that Epic experiment , cast for, for example, x=2, could let you cast both or either sides of a dragons maze split card, if at least 1 has cmc less than or equal to 2.
I found out in gatherer that a split card has 2 cmc in any zone other than in the stack and only 1 in the stack, and since epic experiment exiles, this should be possible.
Is this correct? I'm not sure if this is right.
Thanks
I recently found this deck (and video deck tech and matches by kibler) as i was searching for a proper deck to take to a modern fest that is going to be held in argentina next week.
I usually hate naya and jund decks because they´re so linear and so "mainstream". The card that changed the way of thinking i had in regards to the deck is knight of the reliquary. After about 10 games playing with it, it quickly became one of my top 5 favorite cards and is what transforms this deck from "straight agro" to something slightly "comboish".
Anyways. The decklist i´m running is something like the following:
3 arid mesa
1 misty rainforest
1 marsh flats
1 mountain
1 plains
2 forest
2 stomping ground
1 temple garden
1 Sacred foundry
1 Overgrown tomb
1 Stirring wildwood
2 Tectonic edge
1 Kessig wolf run
1 Slayer´s stronghold
3 birds of paradise
3 deathrite shaman
2 lotus cobra
2 Qasali pridemage
4 knight of the reliquary
4 loxodon smiter
2 thrun, the last troll
Other: 17
4 lightning bolt
3 lightning helix
3 path to exile
3 domri rade
2 elspeth, knight-errant
2 ajani vengeant
1 gaddock teeg
1 path to exile
2 aven mindcensor
3 blood moon
2 ghost quarter
1 batterskull
1 sword of war and peace
1 qasali pridemage
1 torpor orb
2 stony silence
I still have real doubts about the mana base, sometimes i find myself without white mana. There is also no way to add black early on with shaman unless you give up the chance of adding red or white (which you usually need because of helix),
I did add to the original list, the qasali, an elspeth, an ajani and the helices. I also added the stronghold and the tectonic edges which are just AWESOME when you can kill a celestial colonnade or inkmoth nexus, a third blue source for the cryptic command, a tron piece etc etc.
I don´t own any goyfs, which i notice now is a REAL problem, since the only way to combat other goyfs is really 2 for 1 ing myself, smiter (and praying), path or a big unanswered knight of the reliquary, although shaman, ajani and elspeth could be a indirect answer to it.
I upped the number of walkers and added both thrun maindeck. Which decreased the amount of creatures, but actually does not bother that much since ticking domri rade up is good by itself.
The question i have is very alike the question someone else posted. Do i keep the cobras? Do i take them out for voices?
Do you guys think the 2 thrun main deck is a good call? We´ve already got 3 domri, 4 smiter and walkers against UWR, but playing it main deck could work out well i think.
Also a thing that came up the other night, the decision of playing t2 domri over smiter or vice versa. in which cases do you play which one? Against UWR for example, what would you do?