so basically as long as i have a faerie to champion upon resolution, it sticks? If the sprite is the lone faerie in play and it gets killed, the clique also dies?
This might be a stupid question, but i wasn´t around for lorwyn block and i have no idea how this works.
I have a spellstutter sprite in play and decide to champion it with mistbind clique. Do i have to target the sprite? What if the sprite gets killed in response?
I read that it´s a "blowout" if it happens, which appears to mean the clique dies... but i don´t get why. It doesn´t say "target"
I hope you don´t believe i can´t shuffle correctly. I was playing 25 and had zero luck drawing lands
The sentence was incorrectly constructed. It blocks well (in that matchup) not that it blocks AoS.
The nighthawk blocking reckoner was a legitimate error. I know reckoner is better and yada yada. I don´t own any, can´t get any in time, and am as a result going to run something else. Im living in a south american lame ass piece of poop of a country. Getting hold of innistrad block commons and uncommons is literally impossible (i still have to find unburial rites), and orders take 2 to 3 weeks. I´m still waiting on an order i made 2 weeks ago, which will be almost 100% caught by customs, and having to pay 70% of 130 bucks is not something i would ever want to be doing.
I´ll have to settle with what i´ve got.
Thankfully the sideboard cards against control are also very good against other decks like UWR or midrange, so hopefully if there isn´t that much control, i wont be in such a bad shape either
That was the "prototype" version i had before meeting on thursday. We finally came to a final list, at first i was alright with it but the sideboard has a single issue. Just 1 card in the sideboard messes up how i´m boarding against almost everything. Just continue reading...
Ok now. Before we all go crazy about the card choices, give me the chance to explain myself.
So, firstly, i´m not playing reckoner, i´m running nighthawk, which seems kind of stupid, but i am going to try to convince you to MAYBE consider it a good card.
And secondly i upped the land count and by god that was just the best thing ever. I swear on my life that 70% of hands i drew before contained 2 lands and a keyrune (a reasonable keep) and i struggled to find the third one without much success whatsoever. It was SO annoying. I don´t seem to have the problem anymore because i did cut some other stuff too.
Now on to the coices and evaluation:
4 Vampire nighthawk:
Ok. Well as you can see i am running 4 of this fellow, my team did not have anymore reckoners for me. The downside of course is that cards that are played to kill reconer also deal with nighthawk. Against naya blitz it dies to spear, and reckoner doesn´t die that way without a fight. But games against blits aren´t too tough with all the maindeck removal. The key, as my buddy tought me, was to try to clean the board as fast as possible even if it ment mizzium mortaring a mayor or whatever, play souls and stall and proceed to win.
So with this said, its not a card that "could be a reckoner because reckoner is better against agro" agro i´m not afraid of. It´s a card that is going to be better against OTHER matchups.
Nighthawk deals with everything as well as reckoner, except:
It gains some life which is relevant. With slayer´s stronghold, it gains even more (one of the premiere cards against control)
It kills opposing reckoners with a 1 life loss attached.
It kills thragtusk, restoration angel AND angel of serenity becoming a MAYOR player against reanimator and flash. It also kills thundermaw hellkite, opposing aurelias AND obzedat ,a card that is tough to beat. So it basically funtions as a dude that gives you time and eats a removal or a creature, but the important part here is: It flies. It kills AoS which is very annoying.
3 Olivia voldaren
Olivia is NOT "a trap" as some of you said. Yes, it sucks as a reanimation target BUT olivia is the most important card game 1 against reanimator it is the ACE. Reanimator does not play removal outside of AoS and maybe tragic slip. If they stumble or can´t serenity afterwards, you make them play a completely different game. You ping the pilgrims and lingering souls and leave them with less mana, killing a bunch of cards in their deck, thus slowing them down a turn or two, plus if they recover, it might hopefully be too late.
She is a bit bad against control decks but is a removal against other olivias and is a really good card against most aggro/ midrange decks. Against agro, if you´re not dead by turn 4 or they can´t kill her, you probably win. I think 3 is a great number
4 Faithless looting
Now, at first i thought i could just play 2-2 split with unburial rites. But there was something that was maybe much more trivial to you guys than it was for me, but when i saw it, there was no way i thought i could play less than 4 copies of this car. It throws away cards that are useless against the deck you´re facing in game one. That is HUGE.
Not knowing what you´re facing and getting to throw the rakdos return after you see that turn 1 or 2 you´re facing agro or seeing a bunch of lands on the other players side as you loot the mortars and spears away looking for the returns should give you a slight edge game 1 that should not be dismissed. Also, that allows 2-3 unburial rites main as well
3 Rakdos Keyrune
Additional mana. Blocks everything except smiters and bigger dudes in the ground. Allows you to cast an earlier Aurelia, mortars and OBZEDAT if you´re not under too much pressure. But that´s not all. Its actually is a very important card against control, since only 2 or 3 cards can deal with it (azorius charm and detention sphere). It´s a very fast clock when paired up with stronghold and in that matchup can usually be drawn off the top and given haste because of the amount of lands we play.
The card is also great to ramp up into bigger and faster returns, and obzedat (which actually is game against control and at which point you´d want to slaughter games for azorius charm almost without a doubt unless you´re playing against a lingering souls version). It also protects obzedat against a devour flesh after a wrath effect. A very very good card.
I settled at 3 copies and think it´s ok
Also, three copies of this appeared in a 16 th place SCG list as well as three reckoners, which is interesting to say the least. The guy played pretty badly that game on round 8, + the other guy screwed up big time too.
2 Gideon (side)
It really hurt to move these to the side. But i knew it was a for the best. Don´t get me wrong, i LOVE the card maindeck, but it was one of the reasons i just got mana screwed badly. I always rather play a turn 4 double lingering souls off of a keyrune, or keyrune into obzedat or something tha n playing a turn 4 gideon. Sometimes it was not good enough. I am however going to play it main at some point because of how much i love it.
Anyways, 2 copies in the side against midrange and control. It´s a serious card against there. I´m not so sure how good it is against midrange though, but im gonna try it out.
1 Gisela
Should basically be aurelia haha. My buddy likes the card, and it´s a very good reanimator target which i could side out against agro and midrange together with the rites package. But aurelia is SO good. And actually does 6 damage before dying to a wrath or whatever.
It´s good against kessig wolf run and blocks absolutely everything profitably except reckoner, but that´s dealing 2 so unless you´re at 2, it should not matter.
Matchups
So, i got to test against naya blitz, esper and reanimator (blitz and reanimator without sideboards) and found the deck to be very well positioned.
Blitz hard if they just go crazy. As i said before, you should kill everything relevant fast, so that you can lingering souls and later obzedat or olivia. I have no idea how they can sideboard, but my plan is to go:
-2 return +2 tragic slip
-3 unburial rites +1 mortars
-1 Giseal/aurelia +3 temblor
Basically, you should watch out for thalia and probably boros charm, since mortars with overload is a timewalk in their favor if they´ve got it. Temblor is awesome. Dealing with everything except with boar and medic.
Control is an ok matchup. But it does depend on the lists. Lists with lingering souls get a bit more complicated than non ligering souls list i think.
Cards to play around are dissipates and maybe syncopates as well as detention spheres. Best cards of course are obzedat, return, slaughter games and gideon.
Post sideboard they bring in duress or appetite and negates. I still like dreadbore because it kills jace, tamiyo, sorin etc etc.
Also, if you´re running unburial rites against this deck game 2 (you probably should) try not to dump the bombs too quickly... a well timed rest in peace actually is problematic. I´m much rather they turn 2 RIP when i have unburial rites in hand, than going looting throw rites and obzedat and pass, and then they RIP me.
Game 1 is not complicated unless they early AoS and you can´t stabilize by playing an olivia or nighthawk. Basically, olivia is very important because you usually dont want to kill the AoS. You can block thragtusk and AoS with lingering souls, and keyrune also blocks pretty well.
Game 2. Ok. This is where i need help.
Imagine that they see the unburial rites game 1.
Do they take out their unburial rites?
Do they think: "Well, he´s also playing rites, he is definitely not playing rest in peace"?
Do they take out rites and put in Somberwald Sage regardless? Or do they bring in abrupt decay regardless? I can actually kill the sage, it doesn´t bother that much. Some decks play both.
Should i play rakdos charm regardless game 2? Because the card is useless if they board out the rites plan. Which also makes purify the grave useless
Is rakdos´s return good? or bad? Of course, slaughter games followed by return is great, but that´s not fast at all. A rakdos´s return could be pretty risky. You could return for their hand leaving 1 mana open for purify the grave as well.
I´ve also seen decklists that side nevermore and appetite/duress. Nevermore for slaughter games could actually be bad news, unless they nevermore for RIP, which i don´t think will happen at all. We don´t have enchantment removal, so nevermore (but mainly controls detention spheres) could be annoying.
Duress for slaughter games could also be harsh.
It´s also important to think about which spell land they play (township or vault) since i think township is a bit better because it can get their dudes out of mortar range pretty quickly but is bad on an empty board/topdeck.
I almost think purify the grave is unnecessary, 5 cards is enough hate i think.
I could probably remove purify and 1 mortar for 2 duress If 5 cards is enough i could have 2 duress against control to assure removing witchbane orb and other stuff and not having to play charm just for the orb.
Duress would also be great against Assemble the legion against UWR, instead of trying to kill them with charm before they attack you to have every token deal them damage.
And removing the 4th mortar would make it 1 less removal agianst aggro and midrange, but as said before, aggro should HOPEFULLY not be an issue.
Remember that in addition to 3 slaughter games and 2 charms... reanimator will still have to play through olivias, obzedats with vaults, aurelias and lingering souls, dreadbore and vampire nighthawks. I think it´s pretty ok
Been thinking the sideboard against UWR flash and midrange. But still haven´t gotten it down.
Thanks for reading if you have. Sorry for the long post (i summed up 5+ posts in 1). I feel we´ve got the meta pretty well analyzed and can´t wait to hear what you guys have to say!!
Generally with 1-2 unburial rites. Why don't you like it? It lets you rebuy stuff in the lategame and makes faithless looting better!
Sometimes they even bring in graveyard hate against us, which isn't even good. I would also side 1-2 out postboard anyways.
Haha. Yeah, they bring in hate if they see rites game 1. I don´t like it because i don´t really like the looting that much. You´d have to play 3 and 3 (looting and rites) for looting to be any good i think. Generally looting is pretty mediocre if you´re not playing unburial rites in this deck. I´d almost prefer sign in blood + 1-2 rites. Maybe if we were playing griselbrand or gisela, then i´d consider 3 and 3, but that would make the deck a LOT more like a reanimator. Leaving it as a 2-2 split doesn´t seem to make looting any good because you´d generally rather not cast it (at least in my build).
Basically what i´m saying is that rites is good, and looting is meh at best. There needs to be a considerable amount of looting and rites for looting to be relevant and without turning into a reanimator deck
Rise from the Grave is amusing, but at 5 mana I can put a body on board and steal a beater. We need to continuously be putting pressure on them with thumps, because it keeps them trying to play reactively. It also opens up a lot of ways to just win out of nowhere with a beater.
Charm is okay, but honestly, if you are in the rites package, you should just be packing Purify the Grave. I also am unsure about the rites package still, even more so with Reanimator breaking out. But who knows. AoS is good right now, and she opens up the way for Gideon and Obzedat and following her up with a Aurelia is just game.
In all honesty, the best creatures to be playing in standard right now fall into our colors which gives us a great package for reanimating so it may be the way to go, but I would avoid going in on reanimating and simply just devote 2 slots to Unburial Rites and call it a day.
Rakdos's Return is not a great card for us to be playing right now it seems. It just isn't as good at grinding out our matches like it should be. Which has me finding space in the SB for it.
I have a list that utilizes reanimating to a degree, it seems legit, but I won't share until I have sufficient testing in on it. Reforge the Soul still seems stupid good in testing and I am going to use it in the reanimating list too. The sheer fact that all of our threats out wrestle almost every other creature gives us a huge leg up.
Against Junk Reanimator I would name AoS first, followed by behemoth and then Thragtusk. AoS flies which bothers me. I like Aurelia to just end the game and blockers hinder that. Behemoth isn't ran in high enough numbers for me to name it first barring game state demanding it. And Thragtusk is a sissy.
I was thinking of charm solely because of the fact that those deck lists at MOCS tournaments have the unburial rites package. You can deal with opposing graveyards without harming your rites plan (assuming you even want to keep i in, maybe you´ll keep it in against control but take it out against agro).
I´m also VERY undecided about playing rite+looting (maybe 2 and 2 AT MOST) because i´m not sure the numbers will add up, if it´s going to be relevant and how often it is going to be relevant + how often am i going to see those cards while also leaving in cards against agro that aren´t dead against control... it´s a dilema.
I was playing 3 rakdos´s return in my list, but will bring it down to 2 copies i think. Not sure why. It´s a very good card against control and midrange. A bit too slow against agro and appears to be not very good against reanimator.
Just as a curve ball idea, how about Rise from the Grave? They do all the work of setting up their graveyard and we go and steal their Craterhoof from it then trample all over them. too cute?
God, makes me wish Gruesome Encore was still legal. Last nationals i had 1 in the sideboard, brought it in against frights i turn 3´d a Blade splicer he put behemoth in the graveyard AND Unburial rites , i was already in a hurry by then, until i noticed i had a shock in hand too. 8 + 4 + 6 + 2= 20
About rise from the grave, i´m not so sure. I don´t know. I think i´d rather play just straight hate.
I also think i prefer Rakdos charm over RIP just because it doesn´t mess with our graveyard in case we´re playing looting + rites.
Slaughter Game's takes out immediate threats like AoS and Craterhoof. Which would be my first target. We can push through Thragtusks because they are looping with AoS or Unburial Rites, which is a lot easier to keep up with than Thragtusk + Restoration Angel.
This was also something i had trouble choosing, the slaughter games target. I wonder if it´s better to target angel of serenity, thragtusk of behemoth. Kind of makes me want to play slaughter games MD haha (just like a guy did in a SSG open, he played 4 main i think it was)
This deck's time is now. With the craze for Junk Rites I feel this deck is very well positioned against the field. I am curious if it can catch on.
That deck has got me scared out of my shoes. I´m trying not to lose to agro, but at the same time be able to handle a turn 4 angel of serenity / craterhoof behemoth (worst case scenario) AND have a decent game 1 against control. How do we beat that deck? Slaughter games and Rest in peace / Rakdos Charm seems like just the first step, but those decks still run smiter, healer, tusk, resto... seems very tough.
Absolutely LOVE the deck. I did end up 3rd at nationals playing these colors last year with Restoration angels, Blade splicers Olivias and gideon jura, so i´ll probably be running something along the lines of this this years qualifiers.
I think that the decks strong is that it has almost 100% MUST answer threats and attacks from a whole bunch of different angles, i mean untapping with a board of 2-4 tokens of lingering souls protecting a gideon with 6-8 loyalty, having an Obzedat entering that turn, drawing an aurelia and casting a Rakdos's Return for 3 or 4 seems unstoppable.
Still don´t have time to test or money to buy the cards, but will definitely be playing this
I´m not sure about playing Ultimate price or tragic slip. Ultimate price kills every mono red deck creature, restoration angel tragtusk (kind of), and tragic slip kills reckoner, aristocrat, early dudes, late game dudes whenever a lingering soul token dies or something.
I´m playing keyrune because it´s the best card i could think of to kill thragtusk and topdecked Avacyn Pilgrim late game when you´re low on life and they´ve got a wolf run. It also kills most creatures and can bother control a bit pre board as well as ramp into a turn 4 Obzedat or Return for 3. Additionally it ramps into Mortars as well.
The thing i´m worried the most about is having 3 Temblor main against aggro, beacause i would have 3 completely dead cards against control, which kind of makes me want to take them out but that leaves me pretty exposed to turn 1 stromkirk noble t2 ash zealot. All of this kind of makes me HAVE to play reckoner, a card i don´t even really like at all.
The sideboard is still under construction, but will eventually get there.
I do however want suggestions on sideboarding mainly against control. So against control i think that the best cards are:
Aurelia: Surprise 6+ damage that can kind of withstand a charm seems ok
Gideon: Very important kill condition. Basically it you +1 and there on out you activate for 0 that´s it.
Rakdos return: Backbreaking. To be played as fast as possible
liliana: Demands a detention sphere while tearing their hand appart, hurts us less if we´ve got lingering souls
Slaughter games: Very powerful pretty much never dead card against control. Most important targets i think are Detention sphere,Sphinx´s revelation and last but not least azorius charm.
Other cards that could be good are
Obzedat: It DOES not get killed by the verdict or sphere but DOES have to attack to be good. Leaving it back to drain doesn´t seem like an option to me (depends on the board state obviously). I´d still keep it in i guess.
lingering souls: Isn´t that awesome against control i think. unless paired with liliana or maybe aurelia.
Aurelia´s fury: This might be good. The idea is to probably fireball them so that you can get in with gideon that turn and have them play on the tip of their toes.
keyrune: Surprise 3/1 of 5/1 hitter (with stronghold) that could steal some life from the opponent. Still might just get detention sphered
Cards that are problematic against us i think are:
How would the following sideboard look?
-3 mizzium mortars
-3 rolling temblor
-2 Ultimate price/traic slip
+1 liliana of the veil
+3 slaughter games
+2 Aurelia´s Fury
+2 something else (?)
Last deck looks pretty decent. I don't like a few things though. You have young wolf as a 4 of. I see the evolve thing you are going for, but feel like it just doesn't do enough in any matchup. Aggro it's too small. Control it doesn't put enough pressure down. Combo it is too slow. I'd take that out for something. Probably evasive krasis. That is atleast good against aggro. It's a wall that will eventually kill them.
Other than that it seems weird to dilute the colors to add in black.
I would like to see garruk in here in some way. Primal makes big dudes, especially with guildmage. And draws cards. While smaller garruk is amazing at making it more like a combo deck. You sac geist to bring in guildmages. Then draw cards to reset undying. While also tutoring for the creatures you need to take over the game. Probably going with primal since it's bigger and more raw. You don't always have the time to play around.
I guess all this is to say drop young wolf down to a 1 or 2 and put in primal hunter.
I think the wolf is ok. I might be wrong. But it would be either oung wolf or raptor leaving. I want to be able to beat mono red even if i´m on the play. Young wolf blocks and trades later on (hopefully). Plus, young wolf with rancor is already a threat, beating for 3 on turn 2 and potentially 4. 7
Against control, if you are on the play, you can go: t1 wolf t2 guildmage and t3 maybe geist, they on turn 4 play land and smash and pass. Now if they verdict does nothing. you activate guildmage twice and you´ve got 9 power right there. I dont know, i really like the wolf :/ i´ll have to see.
I don´t like the krasis. It evolves everything (we´re talking experiment one and raptor, only those dudes), but it doesn´t hit. I´d rather play dreg mangler for sure. Garruk might be ok, i´d play the little one though. If you curve out nicely, then a garruk relentless is really hard to hill. Then i guess you can sac a geist to tutor for another one and smash. Could be nice.
Discuss and voice your opinion and why you think so.
Exactly what vitcor said i think.
Wolfir avenger´s regeneration is HUUUUGE. Control will not like this dude on eot turn 3, since if you play it correctly, the supreme verdict won´t do anything to it. Plus it´s an INCREDIBLE weapon against mono red, which in my testing kind of favours us (biomancer is just game) but is sometimes just determined by a coin flip, no joking.
The other 3 drops are meh.
For the 2 drops i kind of like the 2/1 with evolve and flash. He doesn´t seem to be that bad. Geist and guildmage should be solid 4 of each though. Snapcaster COULD be good to replay simic charm only, but otherwise not that awesome. If i had to stick some in, i´d play 2, no more.
And even though i´ve been getting control to ragequit left and right, i´m still not sold on the numbers. I have been having some issues mainly with the guildgates and i don´t know if removing a hybridization and the dissipates for additional young wolves, raptors and avengers is the best. There are 0 counters main this way.
The sideboard needs help though. Against control i side out the hands of binding and the hybridizations (unless Obzedat, ghost council) is involved. So i´d bring in 4 cards, usually 2 or 3 Golgari charm and 1 or 2 appetites. So, what the hell are the negates for? Maybe i can turn them into Essence scatters against aggro... but still not sure (maybe unsummons)
This might be a stupid question, but i wasn´t around for lorwyn block and i have no idea how this works.
I have a spellstutter sprite in play and decide to champion it with mistbind clique. Do i have to target the sprite? What if the sprite gets killed in response?
I read that it´s a "blowout" if it happens, which appears to mean the clique dies... but i don´t get why. It doesn´t say "target"
Thanks!
I hope you don´t believe i can´t shuffle correctly. I was playing 25 and had zero luck drawing lands
The sentence was incorrectly constructed. It blocks well (in that matchup) not that it blocks AoS.
The nighthawk blocking reckoner was a legitimate error. I know reckoner is better and yada yada. I don´t own any, can´t get any in time, and am as a result going to run something else. Im living in a south american lame ass piece of poop of a country. Getting hold of innistrad block commons and uncommons is literally impossible (i still have to find unburial rites), and orders take 2 to 3 weeks. I´m still waiting on an order i made 2 weeks ago, which will be almost 100% caught by customs, and having to pay 70% of 130 bucks is not something i would ever want to be doing.
I´ll have to settle with what i´ve got.
Thankfully the sideboard cards against control are also very good against other decks like UWR or midrange, so hopefully if there isn´t that much control, i wont be in such a bad shape either
Ok, so, hold your horses, ´cause this is going to be pretty long i feel.
So, on Thursday, i met with a friend at my place and we got right into building the deck just right for next week.
For those of you that didn´t see my last list, here it is:
3 Olivia Voldaren
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
1 Aurelia, the Warleader
Sorceries ( 21 )
3 Mizzium Mortars
4 Lingering Souls
2 Searing Spear
3 Rakdos's Return
2 Dreadbore
3 Rolling temblor
2 Ultimate price / Tragic Slip
3 Rakdos Keyrune
3 Gideon, Champion of justice
Lands ( 25 )
4 Blood Crypt
4 Godless Shrine
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Clifftop Retreat
4 Isolated Chapel
2 Slayers' Stronghold
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
3 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Rest in peace
3 Slaughter Games
1 Dreadbore
1 Liliana of the veil
2 Aurelia´s fury
3 Other stuff
That was the "prototype" version i had before meeting on thursday. We finally came to a final list, at first i was alright with it but the sideboard has a single issue. Just 1 card in the sideboard messes up how i´m boarding against almost everything. Just continue reading...
final list:
3 Olivia Voldaren
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
1 Aurelia, the Warleader
1 Gisela, blade of Goldnight
Spells
3 Mizzium Mortars
4 Lingering Souls
2 Searing Spear
2 Rakdos's Return
2 Dreadbore
4 Faithless looting
3 Unburial rites
3 Rakdos Keyrune
4 Blood Crypt
4 Godless Shrine
1 Sacred foundry
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Clifftop Retreat
4 Isolated Chapel
2 Slayers' Stronghold
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Rakdos's Return
2 Gideon, Champion of justice
3 Slaughter Games
1 Purify the grave
2 Rakdos charm
1 Mizzium mortars
2 tragic slip
3 rolling temblor
Ok now. Before we all go crazy about the card choices, give me the chance to explain myself.
So, firstly, i´m not playing reckoner, i´m running nighthawk, which seems kind of stupid, but i am going to try to convince you to MAYBE consider it a good card.
And secondly i upped the land count and by god that was just the best thing ever. I swear on my life that 70% of hands i drew before contained 2 lands and a keyrune (a reasonable keep) and i struggled to find the third one without much success whatsoever. It was SO annoying. I don´t seem to have the problem anymore because i did cut some other stuff too.
Now on to the coices and evaluation:
4 Vampire nighthawk:
So with this said, its not a card that "could be a reckoner because reckoner is better against agro" agro i´m not afraid of. It´s a card that is going to be better against OTHER matchups.
Nighthawk deals with everything as well as reckoner, except:
It gains some life which is relevant. With slayer´s stronghold, it gains even more (one of the premiere cards against control)
It kills opposing reckoners with a 1 life loss attached.
It kills thragtusk, restoration angel AND angel of serenity becoming a MAYOR player against reanimator and flash. It also kills thundermaw hellkite, opposing aurelias AND obzedat ,a card that is tough to beat. So it basically funtions as a dude that gives you time and eats a removal or a creature, but the important part here is: It flies. It kills AoS which is very annoying.
3 Olivia voldaren
She is a bit bad against control decks but is a removal against other olivias and is a really good card against most aggro/ midrange decks. Against agro, if you´re not dead by turn 4 or they can´t kill her, you probably win. I think 3 is a great number
4 Faithless looting
Not knowing what you´re facing and getting to throw the rakdos return after you see that turn 1 or 2 you´re facing agro or seeing a bunch of lands on the other players side as you loot the mortars and spears away looking for the returns should give you a slight edge game 1 that should not be dismissed. Also, that allows 2-3 unburial rites main as well
3 Rakdos Keyrune
The card is also great to ramp up into bigger and faster returns, and obzedat (which actually is game against control and at which point you´d want to slaughter games for azorius charm almost without a doubt unless you´re playing against a lingering souls version). It also protects obzedat against a devour flesh after a wrath effect. A very very good card.
I settled at 3 copies and think it´s ok
Also, three copies of this appeared in a 16 th place SCG list as well as three reckoners, which is interesting to say the least. The guy played pretty badly that game on round 8, + the other guy screwed up big time too.
2 Gideon (side)
Anyways, 2 copies in the side against midrange and control. It´s a serious card against there. I´m not so sure how good it is against midrange though, but im gonna try it out.
1 Gisela
It´s good against kessig wolf run and blocks absolutely everything profitably except reckoner, but that´s dealing 2 so unless you´re at 2, it should not matter.
Matchups
So, i got to test against naya blitz, esper and reanimator (blitz and reanimator without sideboards) and found the deck to be very well positioned.
-2 return +2 tragic slip
-3 unburial rites +1 mortars
-1 Giseal/aurelia +3 temblor
Basically, you should watch out for thalia and probably boros charm, since mortars with overload is a timewalk in their favor if they´ve got it. Temblor is awesome. Dealing with everything except with boar and medic.
Control is an ok matchup. But it does depend on the lists. Lists with lingering souls get a bit more complicated than non ligering souls list i think.
Cards to play around are dissipates and maybe syncopates as well as detention spheres. Best cards of course are obzedat, return, slaughter games and gideon.
Post sideboard they bring in duress or appetite and negates. I still like dreadbore because it kills jace, tamiyo, sorin etc etc.
Also, if you´re running unburial rites against this deck game 2 (you probably should) try not to dump the bombs too quickly... a well timed rest in peace actually is problematic. I´m much rather they turn 2 RIP when i have unburial rites in hand, than going looting throw rites and obzedat and pass, and then they RIP me.
Sideboard would be something like:
-3 mortars +3 slaughter games
-2 searing spear +2 gideon
-2 Olivia +1 Return
+1 duress? Charm?
Game 1 is not complicated unless they early AoS and you can´t stabilize by playing an olivia or nighthawk. Basically, olivia is very important because you usually dont want to kill the AoS. You can block thragtusk and AoS with lingering souls, and keyrune also blocks pretty well.
Game 2. Ok. This is where i need help.
Imagine that they see the unburial rites game 1.
Do they take out their unburial rites?
Do they think: "Well, he´s also playing rites, he is definitely not playing rest in peace"?
Do they take out rites and put in Somberwald Sage regardless? Or do they bring in abrupt decay regardless? I can actually kill the sage, it doesn´t bother that much. Some decks play both.
Should i play rakdos charm regardless game 2? Because the card is useless if they board out the rites plan. Which also makes purify the grave useless
Is rakdos´s return good? or bad? Of course, slaughter games followed by return is great, but that´s not fast at all. A rakdos´s return could be pretty risky. You could return for their hand leaving 1 mana open for purify the grave as well.
I´ve also seen decklists that side nevermore and appetite/duress. Nevermore for slaughter games could actually be bad news, unless they nevermore for RIP, which i don´t think will happen at all. We don´t have enchantment removal, so nevermore (but mainly controls detention spheres) could be annoying.
Duress for slaughter games could also be harsh.
It´s also important to think about which spell land they play (township or vault) since i think township is a bit better because it can get their dudes out of mortar range pretty quickly but is bad on an empty board/topdeck.
Sideboard:
-2 rakdos return +1 mortar
-2 searing spear +2 Rakdos charm
-3 Unburial rites +3 slaughter games
+1 purify the grave
I almost think purify the grave is unnecessary, 5 cards is enough hate i think.
I could probably remove purify and 1 mortar for 2 duress If 5 cards is enough i could have 2 duress against control to assure removing witchbane orb and other stuff and not having to play charm just for the orb.
Duress would also be great against Assemble the legion against UWR, instead of trying to kill them with charm before they attack you to have every token deal them damage.
And removing the 4th mortar would make it 1 less removal agianst aggro and midrange, but as said before, aggro should HOPEFULLY not be an issue.
Remember that in addition to 3 slaughter games and 2 charms... reanimator will still have to play through olivias, obzedats with vaults, aurelias and lingering souls, dreadbore and vampire nighthawks. I think it´s pretty ok
Been thinking the sideboard against UWR flash and midrange. But still haven´t gotten it down.
Thanks for reading if you have. Sorry for the long post (i summed up 5+ posts in 1). I feel we´ve got the meta pretty well analyzed and can´t wait to hear what you guys have to say!!
Haha. Yeah, they bring in hate if they see rites game 1. I don´t like it because i don´t really like the looting that much. You´d have to play 3 and 3 (looting and rites) for looting to be any good i think. Generally looting is pretty mediocre if you´re not playing unburial rites in this deck. I´d almost prefer sign in blood + 1-2 rites. Maybe if we were playing griselbrand or gisela, then i´d consider 3 and 3, but that would make the deck a LOT more like a reanimator. Leaving it as a 2-2 split doesn´t seem to make looting any good because you´d generally rather not cast it (at least in my build).
Basically what i´m saying is that rites is good, and looting is meh at best. There needs to be a considerable amount of looting and rites for looting to be relevant and without turning into a reanimator deck
Do you have any idea if it´s with or without Unburial package? I´m still uncertain about running it.
I was thinking of charm solely because of the fact that those deck lists at MOCS tournaments have the unburial rites package. You can deal with opposing graveyards without harming your rites plan (assuming you even want to keep i in, maybe you´ll keep it in against control but take it out against agro).
I´m also VERY undecided about playing rite+looting (maybe 2 and 2 AT MOST) because i´m not sure the numbers will add up, if it´s going to be relevant and how often it is going to be relevant + how often am i going to see those cards while also leaving in cards against agro that aren´t dead against control... it´s a dilema.
I was playing 3 rakdos´s return in my list, but will bring it down to 2 copies i think. Not sure why. It´s a very good card against control and midrange. A bit too slow against agro and appears to be not very good against reanimator.
God, makes me wish Gruesome Encore was still legal. Last nationals i had 1 in the sideboard, brought it in against frights i turn 3´d a Blade splicer he put behemoth in the graveyard AND Unburial rites , i was already in a hurry by then, until i noticed i had a shock in hand too. 8 + 4 + 6 + 2= 20
About rise from the grave, i´m not so sure. I don´t know. I think i´d rather play just straight hate.
I also think i prefer Rakdos charm over RIP just because it doesn´t mess with our graveyard in case we´re playing looting + rites.
This was also something i had trouble choosing, the slaughter games target. I wonder if it´s better to target angel of serenity, thragtusk of behemoth. Kind of makes me want to play slaughter games MD haha (just like a guy did in a SSG open, he played 4 main i think it was)
That deck has got me scared out of my shoes. I´m trying not to lose to agro, but at the same time be able to handle a turn 4 angel of serenity / craterhoof behemoth (worst case scenario) AND have a decent game 1 against control. How do we beat that deck? Slaughter games and Rest in peace / Rakdos Charm seems like just the first step, but those decks still run smiter, healer, tusk, resto... seems very tough.
I think that the decks strong is that it has almost 100% MUST answer threats and attacks from a whole bunch of different angles, i mean untapping with a board of 2-4 tokens of lingering souls protecting a gideon with 6-8 loyalty, having an Obzedat entering that turn, drawing an aurelia and casting a Rakdos's Return for 3 or 4 seems unstoppable.
Still don´t have time to test or money to buy the cards, but will definitely be playing this
Decklist
4 Boros Reckoner
3 Olivia Voldaren
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
1 Aurelia, the Warleader
Sorceries ( 21 )
3 Mizzium Mortars
4 Lingering Souls
2 Searing Spear
3 Rakdos's Return
2 Dreadbore
3 Rolling temblor
2 Ultimate price / Tragic Slip
3 Rakdos Keyrune
Others (3)
3 Gideon, Champion of justice
Lands ( 25 )
4 Blood Crypt
4 Godless Shrine
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Clifftop Retreat
4 Isolated Chapel
2 Slayers' Stronghold
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
3 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Rest in peace
3 Slaughter Games
1 Dreadbore
1 Liliana of the veil
2 Aurelia´s fury
3 Other stuff
I´m not sure about playing Ultimate price or tragic slip. Ultimate price kills every mono red deck creature, restoration angel tragtusk (kind of), and tragic slip kills reckoner, aristocrat, early dudes, late game dudes whenever a lingering soul token dies or something.
I´m playing keyrune because it´s the best card i could think of to kill thragtusk and topdecked Avacyn Pilgrim late game when you´re low on life and they´ve got a wolf run. It also kills most creatures and can bother control a bit pre board as well as ramp into a turn 4 Obzedat or Return for 3. Additionally it ramps into Mortars as well.
The thing i´m worried the most about is having 3 Temblor main against aggro, beacause i would have 3 completely dead cards against control, which kind of makes me want to take them out but that leaves me pretty exposed to turn 1 stromkirk noble t2 ash zealot. All of this kind of makes me HAVE to play reckoner, a card i don´t even really like at all.
The sideboard is still under construction, but will eventually get there.
I do however want suggestions on sideboarding mainly against control. So against control i think that the best cards are:
Aurelia: Surprise 6+ damage that can kind of withstand a charm seems ok
Gideon: Very important kill condition. Basically it you +1 and there on out you activate for 0 that´s it.
Rakdos return: Backbreaking. To be played as fast as possible
liliana: Demands a detention sphere while tearing their hand appart, hurts us less if we´ve got lingering souls
Slaughter games: Very powerful pretty much never dead card against control. Most important targets i think are Detention sphere,Sphinx´s revelation and last but not least azorius charm.
Other cards that could be good are
Obzedat: It DOES not get killed by the verdict or sphere but DOES have to attack to be good. Leaving it back to drain doesn´t seem like an option to me (depends on the board state obviously). I´d still keep it in i guess.
lingering souls: Isn´t that awesome against control i think. unless paired with liliana or maybe aurelia.
Aurelia´s fury: This might be good. The idea is to probably fireball them so that you can get in with gideon that turn and have them play on the tip of their toes.
keyrune: Surprise 3/1 of 5/1 hitter (with stronghold) that could steal some life from the opponent. Still might just get detention sphered
Cards that are problematic against us i think are:
How would the following sideboard look?
-3 mizzium mortars
-3 rolling temblor
-2 Ultimate price/traic slip
+1 liliana of the veil
+3 slaughter games
+2 Aurelia´s Fury
+2 something else (?)
I think the wolf is ok. I might be wrong. But it would be either oung wolf or raptor leaving. I want to be able to beat mono red even if i´m on the play. Young wolf blocks and trades later on (hopefully). Plus, young wolf with rancor is already a threat, beating for 3 on turn 2 and potentially 4. 7
Against control, if you are on the play, you can go: t1 wolf t2 guildmage and t3 maybe geist, they on turn 4 play land and smash and pass. Now if they verdict does nothing. you activate guildmage twice and you´ve got 9 power right there. I dont know, i really like the wolf :/ i´ll have to see.
I don´t like the krasis. It evolves everything (we´re talking experiment one and raptor, only those dudes), but it doesn´t hit. I´d rather play dreg mangler for sure. Garruk might be ok, i´d play the little one though. If you curve out nicely, then a garruk relentless is really hard to hill. Then i guess you can sac a geist to tutor for another one and smash. Could be nice.
Exactly what vitcor said i think.
Wolfir avenger´s regeneration is HUUUUGE. Control will not like this dude on eot turn 3, since if you play it correctly, the supreme verdict won´t do anything to it. Plus it´s an INCREDIBLE weapon against mono red, which in my testing kind of favours us (biomancer is just game) but is sometimes just determined by a coin flip, no joking.
The other 3 drops are meh.
For the 2 drops i kind of like the 2/1 with evolve and flash. He doesn´t seem to be that bad. Geist and guildmage should be solid 4 of each though. Snapcaster COULD be good to replay simic charm only, but otherwise not that awesome. If i had to stick some in, i´d play 2, no more.
I´m currently running the following list
4 Cloudfin Raptor
4 Experiment One
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Zameck Guildmage
3 Wolfir Avenger
3 Master Biomancer
3 Rancor
4 Simic Charm
2 Rapid Hybridization
2 Hands of Binding
2 Overgrown Tomb
4 Breeding pool
4 Hinterland Harbor
3 Woodland Cemetery
2 Simic Guildgate
3 Island
4 Forest
3 Appetite for Brains
3 Golgari Charm
1 Aetherize
5 ?
And even though i´ve been getting control to ragequit left and right, i´m still not sold on the numbers. I have been having some issues mainly with the guildgates and i don´t know if removing a hybridization and the dissipates for additional young wolves, raptors and avengers is the best. There are 0 counters main this way.
The sideboard needs help though. Against control i side out the hands of binding and the hybridizations (unless Obzedat, ghost council) is involved. So i´d bring in 4 cards, usually 2 or 3 Golgari charm and 1 or 2 appetites. So, what the hell are the negates for? Maybe i can turn them into Essence scatters against aggro... but still not sure (maybe unsummons)
Any ideas?