Originally posted by Leyasu
Really, when you're only view of a card is, ''does this go in a current Top 8 deck of X format'' and/or ''is this card going to be worth a lot of money'', all us Vorthos die a little inside. And without the vorthos, you may as well have your cards typed as Black Card #747208: BBB.
The same argument can be made against you. That is how spikes evaluate cards. They evaluate them on their playability in established constructed formats. You can't hate them for judging cards like that, its what spike is all about. Vorthos isnt better than any other player type. I dont make a big stink when someone likes the flavor on a bad card, but anyone who makes comments about how "This card is bad" is hated out of the building.
i think that the blue ones are all cool, but are pushed a little too hard. i think the blue uncommon one will give hexproof and be ridiculously overcosted. but the mill one is great, i just feel that it is too overpowered at common. imagine having two of them out and playing a sliver? thats 6 cards, and the next is gonna be 12. it would get out of hand too fast at common. The blue one that draws you cards would be much better at rare.
the problem is, like has already been said that at best hes a efficient vanilla creature. at worst he's a 2 mana 1/1 with no abilities. Zombies is a fast deck and adding 1/1s for 2 will only slow it down.
Now, the real topic i think is whether blue is worth it. And i say most definitely. In fact, i run a BUG variant, which is extremely fast and plays all of the best zombies. Dreg, Captain, Messenger really clog up the 3 slot, but it tops out with Duskmantle seer, and he just wins games.
In fact, Captain can sometimes be the most aggressive 3 drop. if you go 1 drop>two 1 drops>Captain, thats adding 3 points of damage (more than Messenger, same as Dreg, but spread out. It also has the drain, which makes combat math a nightmare) this scenario can happen a lot and we can swing for 6-9 on turn 3.
TL;DR
Wight of Really Long Name isnt worth it, but adding blue for capatin and Duskmantle Seer most definitely is
Dude the Vampire is beautiful in BUG zombies. Nothing over 3 cmc, and this guy is an evasive finisher that also provides card advantage. If this guy sticks till your turn, thats a win in most cases.
Also this guy takes a dump on your opponent when they reveal thragtusk lol
The first time i read the card, i read it as "Until end of Turn". and wrote it off as a meager utility land with very limited uses. But forever? WOW. This card has applications in every format. If there is a format with any broken lands, this guy fits right in. And one of those obligatory lands in EDH as well.
Unfortunately, it definitely has raw power, but doesnt really have any constructed applications outside of a possible reanimator target, but theres no reason why you shouldn't just play griselbrand
sigh, i love how people instantly assume that standard players want to make decks that autopilot. there havent been decks that autopilot in a long time. In every standard deck right now, which include some *broken* cards like thragtusk, etc. there are still ways to get around them, you just have to plan for them, make less mistakes. In a magic game, let alone a single turn, there are tons of decisions that can win or lose you the game, no matter what cards you or your opponent have.
Yes, but my point was that she is not the best in either of the roles she fills.
She doesnt ramp as early or as quickly as a llanowar elf/arbor elf.
She doesnt attack/grow as quickly/easily as a quirion dryad.
My point is that there are better choices in each category. Yes, if we are talking about a cool kitchen table deck that pumps this guy then plays craterhoof behemoth, then yea that is really cool, but in a standard envirionment, that deck will get crushed by an established deck like zombies, or bant control
1000milligrams, none of the cards you listed are archetype defining. the closest one is obzedat, but he will just be a finisher on BW. Right now there is no solid reason to go into BW, There is no powerful white black card from GTC that warrants an entire deck to be built around it. Also, both planeswalkers spoiled are not going to see much competitve play. people will try to play them, but there are better choices.
Better choices is what im talking about. For example there is no reason to play a vanilla 3/3 for 4 while you could be using Hellrider. Thats what i mean, not for them to reprint anscestral recall...
CORRbentorgy, there is a reason that in the standard forum there is a section called established decks. They are proven to work, and have strong tournament records. Not your local fnm, but hundreds and hundreds of people at a ptq or gpt or scg open, etc. There are good cards because they are better than any other card in that same slot. its the same reasoning why you can have a vanilla 2/2 for 2 and a vanilla 2/3 for 2. the second is strictly better. When a card is strictly worse then another card, it isnt as good and therefore *bad* in terms of competitive playability
Wrathberry, you have stated exactly what i have been trying to say the entire time. None of the cards spoiled so far create their own new standard deck
Thats not what i mean. Utility cards are always going to be played, but they arent going to be the centerpiece of your deck. You dont build a deck around azorius charm. I'm saying that i want cards like gravecrawler/Geralf's messenger. There would be no such thing as a zombie deck without those two cards. I want *Archetype defining cards* not overpowered cards. Sometimes the archetype defining cards are very good, and that is what makes them defining. Sometimes, they arent overpowered. Champion of the Parish is a perfect example. It was a card that got people excited when they first saw it, and it led to people wanting to build decks with it. Competitive decks. Its not an op card, but it makes human aggro strategies viable.
Also those cards that you listed see play because there are decks to support them. They arent the all-stars, but they are the glue that holds everything together. When I'm talking about diversity, we don't need more of the glue.
he stated specifically that when the term *bad* is used to describe magic cards, it means bad in a competivite environment. It only means *not constructed viable*, and if you like the card, and arent going to use it in a serious tournament somewhere, then that is fine for you.
Trying to break evolve on this guy is pointless. You empty your hand trying to pump him, then you have nothing to ramp into. He's also a big guy that *doesnt* want to attack, which is why quirion dryad will always be better.
Quirion Dryad is inherently better than every single evolve card already spoiled
The recent previews really have me liking this set. Lots of fair cards with constructed applications, and nothing that seems better than any other possible option (Thragtusk, Thundermaw, Restoration Angel, Geist of St. Traft, Bonfire type crap)
See that is exactly my problem with the set. Everything IS fair, which is perfectly fine in limited, but the competitive constructed players need those cards that are better than everything else. If they dont get those new, good cards, then GTC standard will be almost identical to RTR standard, except the mana will be better... But I'm not complaining about fairness, i welcome the better limited play, I'm just asking for one or two archetype defining chase rates.....
The same argument can be made against you. That is how spikes evaluate cards. They evaluate them on their playability in established constructed formats. You can't hate them for judging cards like that, its what spike is all about. Vorthos isnt better than any other player type. I dont make a big stink when someone likes the flavor on a bad card, but anyone who makes comments about how "This card is bad" is hated out of the building.
Now, the real topic i think is whether blue is worth it. And i say most definitely. In fact, i run a BUG variant, which is extremely fast and plays all of the best zombies. Dreg, Captain, Messenger really clog up the 3 slot, but it tops out with Duskmantle seer, and he just wins games.
In fact, Captain can sometimes be the most aggressive 3 drop. if you go 1 drop>two 1 drops>Captain, thats adding 3 points of damage (more than Messenger, same as Dreg, but spread out. It also has the drain, which makes combat math a nightmare) this scenario can happen a lot and we can swing for 6-9 on turn 3.
TL;DR
Wight of Really Long Name isnt worth it, but adding blue for capatin and Duskmantle Seer most definitely is
Also this guy takes a dump on your opponent when they reveal thragtusk lol
She doesnt ramp as early or as quickly as a llanowar elf/arbor elf.
She doesnt attack/grow as quickly/easily as a quirion dryad.
My point is that there are better choices in each category. Yes, if we are talking about a cool kitchen table deck that pumps this guy then plays craterhoof behemoth, then yea that is really cool, but in a standard envirionment, that deck will get crushed by an established deck like zombies, or bant control
Better choices is what im talking about. For example there is no reason to play a vanilla 3/3 for 4 while you could be using Hellrider. Thats what i mean, not for them to reprint anscestral recall...
Also those cards that you listed see play because there are decks to support them. They arent the all-stars, but they are the glue that holds everything together. When I'm talking about diversity, we don't need more of the glue.
Quirion Dryad is inherently better than every single evolve card already spoiled
See that is exactly my problem with the set. Everything IS fair, which is perfectly fine in limited, but the competitive constructed players need those cards that are better than everything else. If they dont get those new, good cards, then GTC standard will be almost identical to RTR standard, except the mana will be better... But I'm not complaining about fairness, i welcome the better limited play, I'm just asking for one or two archetype defining chase rates.....