What cards (if any) are people trying from Theros Beyond Death?
Woe Strider seems decently promising as another Viscera Seer that brings extra sac fodder along for the ride. The escape ability is a nice bit of resiliency as well and gives you a use for the non-creatures Grenzo puts in the graveyard.
Gravebreaker Lamia - maybe does something in combo builds? Hard to flip with Grenzo though.
Tymaret, Chosen From Death - I've played Withered Wretch and been happy with it. This is a little less flexible in that you ahve to spend 2 mana at a time but the extra lifegain could be useful.
Anax, Hardened in the Forge - Seems pretty strong if you are going the artistocrats route. Turning each of your non-token bodies into 2+ additional creatures is quite valuable there.
Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger - very difficult to flip with Grenzo, though even just dumping it in the graveyard isn't the worst. Grenzo is also decent at filling your graveyard and escape means it's a way to make use of non-creatures he hits.
Yeah that card is absurd for Grenzo. Putting creatures on the bottom when they die is meant to be a limiting factor for this artifact's second ability but for Grenzo it's basically all upside that it does that.
Murderous Rider is another new card that could have some interesting applications for Grenzo since it also puts itself on the bottom when it dies. Rider + Grenzo + sac outlet gives you sac fodder for as many times as you have the mana. If the sac outlet happens to be Ashnod's Altar then you can just straight up get infinite death triggers for a Zulaport Cutthroat or Blood Artist effect. In addition to all that if you draw it naturally you can use it as a Hero's Downfall effect. I normally shy away from removal that isn't stapled to a creature in this deck since it just means more misses for Grenzo activations (I've long ago removed Terminate, Dreadbore, etc) but with Midnight Rider you can have your cake and eat it too.
Syr Konrad, the Grim triggers off of Grenzo activations if I'm not mistaken, though as a 5 power creature he's difficult to flip with Grenzo and the effect is probably too marginal overall.
Chittering Witch is another army-in-a-can effect we can flip into that scales with the size of your play group. It plays similar to Siege Gang Commander but it can't go to the face. Unlike SGC it is not limited to the type of creature it has to sacrifice though, so I could see it being good enough based on that.
Opportunistic Dragon is a really interesting effect on a red card. If your opponent's commander is a human or artifact you can just take it hostage and there's always plenty of other artifacts to hit. If you have some sort of sac outlet (Goblin Engineer?) you can even sacrifice what you stole. I tend to prefer my artifact removal permanently deal with the problem but it is an interesting effect.
Kinda liking the concept of grenzo.
Just not have infinite or near infinite combos.
Is grenzo any good without the infinite combos?
I can understand it is alot less strong but my FNM, and tbh myself, doesnt like infinites combos.
Yes, just play him as a midrange value engine with creatures like Ravenous Chupacabra, Fleshbag Marauder, Gonti, Emrakul's Hatcher, etc. You don't need to run Doomsday and/or Kiki/Conscripts combo for the deck to be effective.
Dockside Extortionist looks like a pretty great addition for Grenzo. It does come with a bit of variance but it can generate a boatload of mana in the right circumstances and should usually be at least mana neutral except in the rarest of situations.
I mean we definitely care about card advantage, every time we activate Grenzo we're hoping to score some sweet card advantage! We care less about cards in hand certainly but I'll usually try to deploy most of my hand before really going all-in on Grenzo. Hitting some extra land drops off of discarding to this is certainly welcome as well given how mana hungry this deck tends to be. Couple that with ditching cards you want to put on the bottom with a Lantern or Epitaph Golem and getting some sac fodder and I think this card is a great addition.
Goblin Engineer does seem pretty strong, though you need to already run a decent amount of artifacts first to make sure you actually have something to sac to it. Being able to toolbox for your Stylus/Lantern/Ashnod's Altar is pretty good utility. Definitely makes the mana myr and stuff like Clone Shell or Solemn go up in value as sac targets that you don't mind hitting off Grenzo either.
Seasoned Pyromancer is very strong, can be hit off of Grenzo at base power and gives you either some nice filtering or even card advantage if you are hellbent. Plus Grenzo always loves extra tokens to sacrifice. I will certainly be looking to try this.
Just spoiled today is a mini Siege-Gang Commander in Sling-Gang Lieutenant. Probably another one that's better off in a Goblin tribal leaning list but it can give you a ton of extra value if you have lots of expendable Goblins around. Free sac outlets certainly should not be underestimated.
It's kind of hard to rank the GRN/RNA ones together since they're in different environments. I think Syndicate Guildmage is pretty bad in RNA for example, the damage ability is just too inefficient (especially in the face of an Ill-Gotten Inheritance, or a Senate guildmage that can undo your work for 1 mana), and the tap ability is frequently off against everything but Gruul/Simic. Legion Guildmage is a similar card however and pretty strong in GRN which makes me think Syndicate Guildmage (a weaker version of Legion) would be decent if it were in theory part of a GRN guild (Selesnya and Golgari have plenty of big things at common while the other guilds have at least a few common/uncommon hits).
If we're ranking them in a "vacuum" I'd say Senate > House > Legion > Clan > League > Cult > Combine > Swarm > Syndicate > Conclave
Senate has cheap activations that allow you to fill out your turns when you don't curve out. The loot ability is also nice to keep the gas flowing.
House gives you a ton of inevitability with its surveil effect and the sleep ability can be useful when you're behind or in a racing situation.
Legion guildmage plays reasonably well when you're behind or ahead and provides a way to quickly win through a stalled board.
Clan is better when you're ahead than behind but the effects are cheap for what they do and can be quite powerful.
League will let you grind card advantage in the long game and the copying ability doubling a removal spell can also be relevant. However its abilities are quite inefficient compared to some of its contemporaries.
Cult's ping ability isn't exceedingly powerful but it is a bit of inevitability. The discard is a nice long term source of card advantage, however discarding a card is often worse than drawing one so I've got to put it lower than League.
Combine is not flashy, but it lets you make early drops you topdeck more relevant in the long game and can make combat difficult for the opponent
Swarm's lifegain is nice to stem the bleeding but much more awkward to fit into the curve than Senate's lifegain. The menace ability can be nice but is expensive and requires a specific situation to really be at its best.
Syndicate's tap ability being conditional is a huge hit to it but it can be good in certain matchups. 5 mana to do 2 damage is just a worse rate than 6 for 3 from Legion guildmage, but it is some amount of reach.
Conclave is frequently close to being a 1 ability guildmage, the green ability is so often irrelevant. That being said I do think there are plenty of situations where spending 6 mana for a 2/2 vigilance every turn is better than spending 5 to dome them for 2 so I think this isn't too far below Syndicate.
For Grenzo, I think it's easier to just focus on the actual pieces that are recurring instead of the cards in the grave. Kill Meren with more copies of Rav. Chups and friends, use Sharpshooter triggers to find ways to clear Meren out. When it comes to targeted graveyard hate, it can be really low impact. Better to nuke a grave, and we don't have a good creature choice for that (I think?).
Agent of Erebos nukes a whole grave, I think it's the only one though. I probably run more Nekrataals than most people but it's still nice to have access to grave hate. Also a lot of the Nekrataal effects can't even kill black creatures so they are of dubious value vs Meren.
Ok so in my FNM randomish meta, i have run into a lot of superfriends or just janky PW style decks. Which do you think would be a better add Thief of Blood or Vampire Hexmage or both/something else?
Thief seems bad since he takes counters off your own Grenzo even if he does kill every PW as opposed to just one. I think given the amount of recursion Grenzo has access to Hexmage removing only one PW is an issue that can be worked around.
Sharktocrab is a straight-up bomb and easy first pick for me here. Not only is it an incredibly efficient creature but it's also something I'd be more than happy to splash even if I end up base Gruul or Azorius.
If you REALLY want to stay mono-colored GCG is a fine card (and hey maybe you'll live the dream and open a second) but I think the power level is so far below Sharktocrab here that you really should just take the best card.
Juggler is another fine single color card that can leave you outs for Orzhov or Rakdos but I feel it's less powerful than a flexible and cheap evolve creature in GCG, and you won't always be able to trigger its spectacle cost.
Get the Point is a fine removal but as a 5 mana and 2 color card I think there are enough comparable replacements for it that I wouldn't be too heartbroken passing it over the single color cards.
Been playing Grenzo for the past few years and I'm curious what people like for a graveyard hate package. I don't play against a ton of graveyard shenanigans but there is a Meren deck that can be annoying quite once it gets going. Of course there's our old buddy Junktroller who serves multiple purposes in this deck but I like to have access to a little more than that.
I've had some success with Withered Wretch as a 2 power creature that Grenzo can flip and it's something fairly cheap to activate. Also holding mana up for Wretch goes hand-in-hand with what Grenzo wants to do anyways so it interacts nicely in that regard.
Similarly I've also tried Nezumi Graverobber but I've never actually managed to flip it so it's basically a Withered Wretch that's more expensive to use (and also needs colored mana). The flipped version does have a strong effect but if that never comes up then I have to deem the card not worthwhile.
There's also stuff like Crypt Creeper and Heap Doll which are kind of neat as they sac themselves but probably a bit too weak of an effect overall.
Bojuka Bog is an obvious freeroll in this deck. One shot exile someone's grave is handy. Can be a bit awkward if you draw it too early but I'm usually pretty happy having one in my deck.
Yet to try some other non-creatures like Relic of Progenitus, Nihil Spellbomb, Tormod's Crypt, Rakdos Charm, etc though I think for the most part I don't really want em since creatures tend to be better (especially in the case of Relic which nukes my own GY).
Looking through some cards I found Agent of Erebos which is a Tormod's crypt ETB effect on a creature. With a sac outlet/recursion you could in theory use it multiple times so that might be another good option. Anyone tested with it?
----
Also curious why no mention of Cloak and Dagger in the primer. This card is often better than any of the Lightning Greaves/Swiftfoot Boots type of effects in this deck since it not only auto equips to Grenzo but even boosts his power so you can save mana on casting him. Obviously adding non-creatures isn't ideal but I do think this equipment is worthwhile.
Rewind has already been a common for ages, it's not a new card in the format. The biggest issue for both Spike Jester and Call of the Conclave is there's no obvious home for them. Maybe domain Zoo wants to play Call of the Conclave, though it might not even be better than Qasali Pridemage. R/B aggro has never really been a thing in Pauper and I don't see Spike Jester being enough of an incentive, especially given how bad the mana is for 2 color aggro. Maybe if Burning-Tree Emissary could cast Spike Jester it would be good, but that's not the reality we live in.
BTE will make a big impact in Stompy, and will likely give those RDW (not Goblins) lists that run Mudbrawler Cohort and Valley Dasher a push as well. It's possible it might help enable a Gruul aggro deck too, though I'm a bit skeptical it would actually be better than either mono-colored deck. Still the tools are there with stuff like Jund Hackblade, Horned Kavu, and Scab-Clan Mauler.
Magma Jet slots nicely into Burn decks over the Incinerate/Searing Spear/Lightning Strike that were fighting for the last 3 or so slots. Could also help a control deck like Murasa Tron or UR control smooth out their draws in the early game while still removing a threat.
Mortician Beetle helps boost a tier 3 deck in BG sacrifice. I don't think it's enough to make that deck competitive since the manabase is pretty bad though.
Augur of Bolas was also just revealed which could work very well in some of the "spells matter" decks of the format. I could see UB Teachings liking this card over Sea Gate Oracle too since it comes down earlier. Unlike Sea Gate though it can't dig for land drops early or Mulldrifter when you want to pull ahead though.
So, Burning-Tree Emissary has been shifted down to common. This is a pretty big game changer for Stompy. I honestly have kind of a love-hate relationship with this card and didn't think it was going to be that good when it was in Standard 5 years ago but I was wrong. The tempo aspect it provides far outweighs it being "merely" a bear. So even though I do hate how it makes you a bit worse in the late game I think it absolutely still has to be played moving forward. It's just too damn good at what it does. Tentatively I'd look at something like this for the maindeck moving forward:
In the past I used to really like running 18 one drops in the main (usually either 2 Basking Rootwalla or 2 Scattershot Archer if Delver was very popular) since
a) it's really important to have a turn 1 creature in your opener (and Pit-Skulk isn't really an ideal turn 1 play) and
b) it gives you a better opportunity to play 3 things by turn 2. That's how you get ahead on tempo which is a key to Stompy's success.
Now however, BTE kind of turns that on its head. Now you can play a 2 drop AND a 1 drop (or another 2 drop) on turn 2....as the old saying goes you get to have your cake and eat it too.
I'm not sure this is the exact right set of 2 drops and pump spells to go with, the important thing to consider when building with BTE in mind is how to maximize the mana it creates. Since it makes a red mana, we need to try and prioritize cards that can actually use this mana if possible. Garruk's Companion is therefore out, even though I do like it. It's fragile but also unique as the only 3 power 2 drop we have access to. And its built in evasion can be a boon when you don't draw a Rancor. But there's nothing we can replace it with so we'll just have to rely on the tempo advantage of BTE to compensate for the loss of that extra point of power (which I think it more than does).
The 2 drop configuration I've chosen is probably not optimal but Mongrel, Safehold Elite, and River Boa are some of the stronger options to consider. Nest Invader could easily slot in for Elite if you want to go on the Hunger plan. Shinen of Life's Roar is another, as is Silhana Ledgewalker. I strongly dislike Ledgewalker in this deck because it's a poor standalone threat but if you do run it then you should certainly be running Hunger of the Howlpack and
probably the full set of Nest Invaders. Possibly Vault Skirge too. Another option is Leafcrown Dryad though I've felt like that card is kind of underpowered for this deck in the past. There's also Brindle Shoat as another resilient threat.
Bonesplitter goes up in stock a bit too. A turn 2 play of BTE + 1 drop + Bonesplitter is really solid and sets up a strong attack force for the following turns. It's possible that we want to go up to 2 Bonesplitters. If the Bonesplitter is already in play then you can use the red mana to equip it too.
Gather Courage could be Mutagenic Growth depending on the meta. I like that BTE dumps a bunch of bodies in play that will happily convoke Gather Courage though.
Since hitting 2 lands is even more important now that we're running fewer 1 drops and more 2 drops we want to play on curve, we absolutely want to be running 17 imo.
edited because I was half asleep and for some reason thought Safehold Elite was (g/w)(g/w)
Woe Strider seems decently promising as another Viscera Seer that brings extra sac fodder along for the ride. The escape ability is a nice bit of resiliency as well and gives you a use for the non-creatures Grenzo puts in the graveyard.
Gravebreaker Lamia - maybe does something in combo builds? Hard to flip with Grenzo though.
Tymaret, Chosen From Death - I've played Withered Wretch and been happy with it. This is a little less flexible in that you ahve to spend 2 mana at a time but the extra lifegain could be useful.
Anax, Hardened in the Forge - Seems pretty strong if you are going the artistocrats route. Turning each of your non-token bodies into 2+ additional creatures is quite valuable there.
Irreverent Revelers - strict upgrade on Manic Vandal if anyone was using that
Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger - very difficult to flip with Grenzo, though even just dumping it in the graveyard isn't the worst. Grenzo is also decent at filling your graveyard and escape means it's a way to make use of non-creatures he hits.
Murderous Rider is another new card that could have some interesting applications for Grenzo since it also puts itself on the bottom when it dies. Rider + Grenzo + sac outlet gives you sac fodder for as many times as you have the mana. If the sac outlet happens to be Ashnod's Altar then you can just straight up get infinite death triggers for a Zulaport Cutthroat or Blood Artist effect. In addition to all that if you draw it naturally you can use it as a Hero's Downfall effect. I normally shy away from removal that isn't stapled to a creature in this deck since it just means more misses for Grenzo activations (I've long ago removed Terminate, Dreadbore, etc) but with Midnight Rider you can have your cake and eat it too.
Syr Konrad, the Grim triggers off of Grenzo activations if I'm not mistaken, though as a 5 power creature he's difficult to flip with Grenzo and the effect is probably too marginal overall.
Chittering Witch is another army-in-a-can effect we can flip into that scales with the size of your play group. It plays similar to Siege Gang Commander but it can't go to the face. Unlike SGC it is not limited to the type of creature it has to sacrifice though, so I could see it being good enough based on that.
Opportunistic Dragon is a really interesting effect on a red card. If your opponent's commander is a human or artifact you can just take it hostage and there's always plenty of other artifacts to hit. If you have some sort of sac outlet (Goblin Engineer?) you can even sacrifice what you stole. I tend to prefer my artifact removal permanently deal with the problem but it is an interesting effect.
Yes, just play him as a midrange value engine with creatures like Ravenous Chupacabra, Fleshbag Marauder, Gonti, Emrakul's Hatcher, etc. You don't need to run Doomsday and/or Kiki/Conscripts combo for the deck to be effective.
Seasoned Pyromancer is very strong, can be hit off of Grenzo at base power and gives you either some nice filtering or even card advantage if you are hellbent. Plus Grenzo always loves extra tokens to sacrifice. I will certainly be looking to try this.
Just spoiled today is a mini Siege-Gang Commander in Sling-Gang Lieutenant. Probably another one that's better off in a Goblin tribal leaning list but it can give you a ton of extra value if you have lots of expendable Goblins around. Free sac outlets certainly should not be underestimated.
If we're ranking them in a "vacuum" I'd say Senate > House > Legion > Clan > League > Cult > Combine > Swarm > Syndicate > Conclave
Senate has cheap activations that allow you to fill out your turns when you don't curve out. The loot ability is also nice to keep the gas flowing.
House gives you a ton of inevitability with its surveil effect and the sleep ability can be useful when you're behind or in a racing situation.
Legion guildmage plays reasonably well when you're behind or ahead and provides a way to quickly win through a stalled board.
Clan is better when you're ahead than behind but the effects are cheap for what they do and can be quite powerful.
League will let you grind card advantage in the long game and the copying ability doubling a removal spell can also be relevant. However its abilities are quite inefficient compared to some of its contemporaries.
Cult's ping ability isn't exceedingly powerful but it is a bit of inevitability. The discard is a nice long term source of card advantage, however discarding a card is often worse than drawing one so I've got to put it lower than League.
Combine is not flashy, but it lets you make early drops you topdeck more relevant in the long game and can make combat difficult for the opponent
Swarm's lifegain is nice to stem the bleeding but much more awkward to fit into the curve than Senate's lifegain. The menace ability can be nice but is expensive and requires a specific situation to really be at its best.
Syndicate's tap ability being conditional is a huge hit to it but it can be good in certain matchups. 5 mana to do 2 damage is just a worse rate than 6 for 3 from Legion guildmage, but it is some amount of reach.
Conclave is frequently close to being a 1 ability guildmage, the green ability is so often irrelevant. That being said I do think there are plenty of situations where spending 6 mana for a 2/2 vigilance every turn is better than spending 5 to dome them for 2 so I think this isn't too far below Syndicate.
Agent of Erebos nukes a whole grave, I think it's the only one though. I probably run more Nekrataals than most people but it's still nice to have access to grave hate. Also a lot of the Nekrataal effects can't even kill black creatures so they are of dubious value vs Meren.
Thief seems bad since he takes counters off your own Grenzo even if he does kill every PW as opposed to just one. I think given the amount of recursion Grenzo has access to Hexmage removing only one PW is an issue that can be worked around.
Sharktocrab is a straight-up bomb and easy first pick for me here. Not only is it an incredibly efficient creature but it's also something I'd be more than happy to splash even if I end up base Gruul or Azorius.
If you REALLY want to stay mono-colored GCG is a fine card (and hey maybe you'll live the dream and open a second) but I think the power level is so far below Sharktocrab here that you really should just take the best card.
Juggler is another fine single color card that can leave you outs for Orzhov or Rakdos but I feel it's less powerful than a flexible and cheap evolve creature in GCG, and you won't always be able to trigger its spectacle cost.
Get the Point is a fine removal but as a 5 mana and 2 color card I think there are enough comparable replacements for it that I wouldn't be too heartbroken passing it over the single color cards.
I've had some success with Withered Wretch as a 2 power creature that Grenzo can flip and it's something fairly cheap to activate. Also holding mana up for Wretch goes hand-in-hand with what Grenzo wants to do anyways so it interacts nicely in that regard.
Similarly I've also tried Nezumi Graverobber but I've never actually managed to flip it so it's basically a Withered Wretch that's more expensive to use (and also needs colored mana). The flipped version does have a strong effect but if that never comes up then I have to deem the card not worthwhile.
There's also stuff like Crypt Creeper and Heap Doll which are kind of neat as they sac themselves but probably a bit too weak of an effect overall.
Bojuka Bog is an obvious freeroll in this deck. One shot exile someone's grave is handy. Can be a bit awkward if you draw it too early but I'm usually pretty happy having one in my deck.
Yet to try some other non-creatures like Relic of Progenitus, Nihil Spellbomb, Tormod's Crypt, Rakdos Charm, etc though I think for the most part I don't really want em since creatures tend to be better (especially in the case of Relic which nukes my own GY).
Looking through some cards I found Agent of Erebos which is a Tormod's crypt ETB effect on a creature. With a sac outlet/recursion you could in theory use it multiple times so that might be another good option. Anyone tested with it?
----
Also curious why no mention of Cloak and Dagger in the primer. This card is often better than any of the Lightning Greaves/Swiftfoot Boots type of effects in this deck since it not only auto equips to Grenzo but even boosts his power so you can save mana on casting him. Obviously adding non-creatures isn't ideal but I do think this equipment is worthwhile.
Magma Jet slots nicely into Burn decks over the Incinerate/Searing Spear/Lightning Strike that were fighting for the last 3 or so slots. Could also help a control deck like Murasa Tron or UR control smooth out their draws in the early game while still removing a threat.
Mortician Beetle helps boost a tier 3 deck in BG sacrifice. I don't think it's enough to make that deck competitive since the manabase is pretty bad though.
Augur of Bolas was also just revealed which could work very well in some of the "spells matter" decks of the format. I could see UB Teachings liking this card over Sea Gate Oracle too since it comes down earlier. Unlike Sea Gate though it can't dig for land drops early or Mulldrifter when you want to pull ahead though.
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Young Wolf
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
3 Safehold Elite
3 Wild Mongrel
2 River Boa
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 Groundswell
1 Bonesplitter
2 Gather Courage
In the past I used to really like running 18 one drops in the main (usually either 2 Basking Rootwalla or 2 Scattershot Archer if Delver was very popular) since
a) it's really important to have a turn 1 creature in your opener (and Pit-Skulk isn't really an ideal turn 1 play) and
b) it gives you a better opportunity to play 3 things by turn 2. That's how you get ahead on tempo which is a key to Stompy's success.
Now however, BTE kind of turns that on its head. Now you can play a 2 drop AND a 1 drop (or another 2 drop) on turn 2....as the old saying goes you get to have your cake and eat it too.
I'm not sure this is the exact right set of 2 drops and pump spells to go with, the important thing to consider when building with BTE in mind is how to maximize the mana it creates. Since it makes a red mana, we need to try and prioritize cards that can actually use this mana if possible. Garruk's Companion is therefore out, even though I do like it. It's fragile but also unique as the only 3 power 2 drop we have access to. And its built in evasion can be a boon when you don't draw a Rancor. But there's nothing we can replace it with so we'll just have to rely on the tempo advantage of BTE to compensate for the loss of that extra point of power (which I think it more than does).
The 2 drop configuration I've chosen is probably not optimal but Mongrel, Safehold Elite, and River Boa are some of the stronger options to consider. Nest Invader could easily slot in for Elite if you want to go on the Hunger plan. Shinen of Life's Roar is another, as is Silhana Ledgewalker. I strongly dislike Ledgewalker in this deck because it's a poor standalone threat but if you do run it then you should certainly be running Hunger of the Howlpack and
probably the full set of Nest Invaders. Possibly Vault Skirge too. Another option is Leafcrown Dryad though I've felt like that card is kind of underpowered for this deck in the past. There's also Brindle Shoat as another resilient threat.
Bonesplitter goes up in stock a bit too. A turn 2 play of BTE + 1 drop + Bonesplitter is really solid and sets up a strong attack force for the following turns. It's possible that we want to go up to 2 Bonesplitters. If the Bonesplitter is already in play then you can use the red mana to equip it too.
Gather Courage could be Mutagenic Growth depending on the meta. I like that BTE dumps a bunch of bodies in play that will happily convoke Gather Courage though.
Since hitting 2 lands is even more important now that we're running fewer 1 drops and more 2 drops we want to play on curve, we absolutely want to be running 17 imo.
edited because I was half asleep and for some reason thought Safehold Elite was (g/w)(g/w)