Keeping it simple. This is my devotion to black as of right now
I have almost exactly the same deck but I do not like the scry lands yet. It's just personal opinion but with this aggro heavy meta I feel like losing a turn of being able to cast something really hurts us. Underworld Connections helps with variance enough for me usually.
And also, I am starting to regret playing 4 mutavault. Most time they do nothing while they are out, and really cripple us with all the double black that is needed. I might go down to 3.
I've noticed that the biggest weakness of the deck seems to be having nothing to play on turn 1 or 2 other than the odd Doom Blade or Pharika's Cure. I did a very small amount of testing with a blue splash (even though I don't have all the lands necessary), but what I noticed was that blue gives you Syncopate, Far//Away, and/or Cyclonic Rift, and all three are capable of being played on turn 2. I don't know if that makes it better than a green or red splash, but it was noticeable at least.
Pack rat is a really good 2 drop right now, I'd think most people would agree
You could'nt be more wrong. Splashing red does not change the characteristic of the deck at all. You just get a better sideboard and upgrade Doomblades that are dead in the mirror match and against esper to dreadbores for example. And a copy of Rakdos Return probably.
Plus you get a better mana base to cast more cards off of Nightveil Spectre initially.
Corrupt is an engine? How? It does not give you any card advantage, it is expensive, brings no devotion and usually hits for way less than a Merchant. Corrupt would be good if it was playable before Merchant but it is not.
And yes the Overlord is too slow, but Erebos is an almost completely useless card in a lot of matchups so he should stay in the sideboard for mirror matches.
Mana base consistency is a thing, plus having to either have lands that come into play tapped or you have to pay 2 life in order for them to be untapped is dangers with Mono Red being so prevalent. Rakdos's Return is the only card that I think would be really good on a splash, but again thats trying to accomplish something very different from what the Mono Black is trying to accomplish. With Lifebane and Thoughtseize (and sometimes Duress on the sideboard) I will have plenty of knowledge of what the opponent has and what threats to deal with.
While I do like Corrupt, I may concede to bringing in 3 Nightveil Specters to replace them and the Overlord. I won't be splashing any time soon and have yet to see any 4-0's from RB combinations on MTGO and plenty of 4-0 from the Mono Black. You may see it as a matter of opinion that Mono Black is a better ideal deck, but unless the meta drastically changes the deck has been producing without the need for much change to the core.
Why am I seeing all of the ratchet bombs main deck when there are already 10+ removal cards in most lists? Wouldn't that be a better SB card?
Black does not have a proper Wrath of God in standard so this card has a tremendous amount of applications especially against aggro.
After plenty of playtesting, I am confident enough in the deck to try out this deck in an online tourney, and I figured TNMO- Standard would be a safe enough place to try it out officially.
Match 1(0-0) was against a BUG deck that had a metric ton of removal
Game 1 Lifebane Zombie took care of the creatures and Corrupt to the face worked out an easy win
Game 2 Was a little more harrowing since the guy sided in every counter and creature removal he had. I had a Pithing nNedle opening hand so it neutralized his Aetherling but a late game Scavenging Ooze was too much to handle at the end.
Game 3 Whip of Erebos + a Erebos on the board made this game make a complete 180 in my favor and led to a grind out win. (2 to 1)
Match 2 (1-0) was against a UB version of this deck
Game 1 was a back and forth but I was unlucky enough to only get my Doom Blades in hand as removal, his Nightveil Specters ground me out by taking my Whip of Erebos
Game 2 was an exercise in the frustration that is MTGO sometimes. I had 2 lands in hand with 2 lifebane zombies and a whip and 2 hero's downfall. Unfortunately I did not get a third land for 3 turns and by then I was way too far behind. Easy win for the opponent (0 to 2)
Match 3 (1-1) was the most advantageous match I think we have, which was against Mono White Weenie.
I won't even list the games because they both were over by turn 5 or 6. Thoughtseizing their God Willing's ruins this deck. Lifebane stole the show, I probably could have won with just them alone.
Some thoughts:
Abhorrent Overlord is going to get moved to the SB, and maybe from the deck period. It's a win more card and unless I was playing some sort of control shell it almost never sees play. I also may include a single Nykthos for some late game shenanigans.
I know people do not like Corrupt but it is an absolute engine for this deck. I like the creature vs spell balance, and I will probably just mainboard an Erebos to replace the Overlord.
I don't want to splash any color at all. Splashing a color completely changes the characteristics of the deck and really is a whole different deck all together. In my playtesting the only really difficult matchups were Mono Red and Mono Black. Mono red can be dealt with pretty easily post board, but Mono Black can be just a battle of who gets out a whip first. I am pleased with the deck overall and I will bring it to dailies and report back.
Went 2-2 and that was before I could get hardly any play testing in beforehand. Liliana of the Veil Liliana and Silverblade Paladin was a last minute decision - Liliana was a beast, especially when I kept using her +1 ability when my hand became empty. Deathrite Shaman kept me alive in games I would have otherwise lost. The Paladin only seemed to work when I was already ahead so might eliminate those. I think for the next one I will go with a full play set of Thalia as it seemed to frustrate my opponents the most. I've also added Stony Silence as my meta seems fairly Affinity heavy.
Would appreciate any suggestions just started getting back into the game and Modern seems the most fun of the formats right now.
I like the BW idea but I think it totally changes what this deck is really about. In my opinion the deck is about surprise tricks with creatures and vial, along with mana denial and chump blocking lifegain with finks.
BW and GW just feel like totally completely different deck archtypes...
The problem with giving Spellskite protection like that is that it is no longer a legal target, so the redirection ability won't be effective at all. If Spellskite has Protection from Red, you can activate the ability as many times as you please, but that Lightning Bolt will still hit its original target.
Anyways, spellskite isn't a good for a deck that is at it's core pretty aggressive. As long as you can keep the MVP's alive the deck does really well against the field.
I havn't had the time to enter in my decklist into the dailies but I wanna try soon
I'm not sure I agree with this, though I may misunderstand you.
If you mean to equip Spellskite with swords so you can swing in for damage, it cripples Spellskite's ability to redirect spells and abilities to itself because of the protection the swords give. I would rather have a regular beater to strap a sword to than something with such negative synergy.
I'm not a big spellskite fan for this deck, but equipping a spellskite with a sword doesn't really hamper its ability to absorb spells unless the spells are super conditional such as Go for The Throat which can't target the spellskite to begin with. If it changed a lightning bolt to itself and it had pro red the spell would just do no damage.....
Anyways, I like the instant flicker type of spells for the deck better than other creature answers. It allows Finks to become much more of a beast and protects your beaters in the Angels and Crusaders.
I'm in the process of acquiring the last few pieces I need to complete a D+T list, and I was wondering if someone could explain why Mangara isn't used much anymore. I know the primer says the format is too fast, but could someone elaborate?
I run mangara as a 1 of just as another option against planeswalkers, which this deck has difficulty dealing with.
The problem is that 1 toughness and being a white 3 CC creature makes it vulnerable to every removal in the format. Unless you can Vial it in, or have some sort of resto angel or blinking protection it's not going to be on the board long.
I've been utilizing otherworldly journey in order to not only abuse the kitchen finks but to protect the real MVP's of the deck (Hero of Bladehold/Serra Avenger/Mirran Crusader). Otherwise any deck with red in it is just going to plink your 2 CC creatures unless you get a Forge-Tender on board. Also forge tender is almost necessary in the sideboard because it keeps Pyroclasm from completely clearing your board.
With the meta being heavy Jund/Storm/Tron/Affinity, the deck does well against the field. It also does well against rogue decks and tribal based (fairies and merfolk i'm looking at you!) . However i've really had struggles against the more control based blue/red decks....BUT Otherworldly Journey has been SO clutch against those decks!
For example I have blinked out targets for Splinter-Twin, killing the combo, kept my life total strong by blinking Finks, or making Jund's life hell by returning a 3/3 Mirran Crusader to the field or saving some of my creatures from burn.
U/R Delver or Storm Decks pose the biggest problems that I can see. U/R Delver just counters/bounces or bolt's my threats and Storm can usually pull out a win on the first game unless I get a finks out fast. Post-board storm isn't much of a problem, but U/R Delver still usually has an edge. Hexproof decks are also probably in the 40% win category but I have not played them much since I added Otherworldly Journey. It will probably help chump block until I can get answers or Day of Judgment.
Comments? Ideas? I was thinking of -1 Leonin Arbiter for +1 Resto Angel or Blade Splicer and since it's not a black heavy meta going Sword of War and Peace over Light and Shadow...I might also drop the revoker and put in pithing needle, since revoker almost never stays on the board very long. And I might add another Dismember (and will definitely do that once Theros comes out for all the indestructable shenanigans)
It's shocking to see how many people don't realize that this a hobby that WoTC has been cashing in on for years.
It's not a money making venture unless you are less than %1 of players. Either you do well and keep your EV kind of even or you spend money in order to enjoy a hobby.
After some initial investment you never have to pay for anything again, getting into phantom sealed tourneys is completely your choice. Think of it as a really cheap way to burn a couple hours.
I haven't been particularly active in this thread the last couple of weeks, but I'll do my best to provide some thoughts on all the subjects I've missed. I know it's a bit late, but better late than never
Counters against Mono Red
There seems to be some differing opinions on the value of counters against Mono Red.
I'd say it's not all that important excactly how good they are game 1, as it's not like there's anything you can do about your starting 60 when the match has already started. To clarify, I can't imagine going much lower than the three maindeck Counterfluxes and two Syncopates I currently run, nor higher.
Post-board, assuming you have reasonable cards to replace them (Nightveil Specters or better), I don't like any of the counters. At all. While Syncopate is the absolute best way to counter a turn two Burning Tree Emissary or turn three Boros Reckoner, that's where the fun stops. And to be clear, that's only on the play, where you would otherwise be in a favourable position with almost any two cards played on turn two and three to fend off their's.
It seems to me that people are too afraid of the blowout-scenarios and can't see the average game clearly. In general, you're looking for consistently good cards, straight-up powerful cards or niche-cards that provide blowouts. A good example of this is how different Dispel is against Mono Red than GW.
In one matchup you're at best countering 3 or 4 damage, but have almost no other utility. A niche-card that can't be a real game-changer
In the other matchup, you're turning Rootborn Defenses-blowouts on their heads, or dissipating eot-Wurms. An card that is arguably both consistently good and can prove integral to game-wins.
If Annihilating Fire starting seeing play consistently as a 4-of post-sideboard from Mono Red, Dispel would be far more consistently useful and I would conisder playing one post-board. As is though, I'm shocked to see the people siding it in against Mono Red.
Pithing Needle and Slaughter Games
I freely admit to have done quite a bit of worrying the first couple of weeks playing the deck, thinking that a Slaughter Games naming "Ætherling" would just end the game. As time has passed however, I have come to fear Games less and less. Between Nightveil Specter, Ral Zarek and Rakdos' Return, you're not completely kold to Games from BRW. I'm not saying I'm loving it, but it's just not that big of a deal. Other creatures than Ætherling and Specter are simply such huge steps down in power-level and/or resilincy, so I'm won't try alternating the win-conditions.
BRW simply isn't that good of a deck and people have realized this, so you're fairly unlikely to encounter in a Daily Event. I think I have played against it two or three times playing Grixis, and I have played a heck of a lot of games with Grixis.
Slaugher Games from Maze's End is worse than BRW's. While it seems silly, I play Woodloth Crawler post-board, as it walks pasts their green life-gainers and all the removal that would be in it's place it mostly atrocious. Beating down with Goblin Pikers while the opponent struggles to find the right mana, will give you the free wins you deserve.
Come to think of it, I will probably try boarding in Woodloth Crawlers in against BRW if I face it again. With the exception of Sin Collector, they're very poorly equipped to deal with a Goblin Piker post-board. A couple of Staticasters solves both the Sin Collector and Assemble the Legion issue.
The only match-up where I view Pithing Needle as a fitting card to bring in against us, is a singular Needle from Esper to shut down Ral Zarek (I go down to two post-board). Maze's End can also benefit from the Needle, but they don't truly have the space since they miss out on the one matchup where Needle truly can shine. I suppose BRW benefits the most from Needle's existence, but they ironically also are the only ones with both access to and need of Slaughter Games, which leaves little space for Needle
I know there are BRW decks that devote 2/3rds of the SB to Games, Needle and Debtor's Pulpit, but that's their problem.
GW
I can't overstate how poor I believe Nightveil Specters to be against GW. It's only use, and that's "only" with close to no real exceptions, is "dealing" with Voice of Resurgence.
As for how to play against GW, I unfortunately don't think I have a heap of advice that isn't intuitive. I'll provide how I SB, but I consider most of the "play-part" straight-forward:
Try hard to not be blown out by Rootborn Defenses. Block with Staticaster at almost every opportunity. Remember that Selesneya Charm is a card. Keep in mind that a Wurm will come down if the opponent passes with no play turn four. Use Izzet Charm before Turn / Burn if given the oppurtunity. Savour the Far / Away and Turn / Burn + ping blowouts.
All rules have exceptions, except the last one
Thanks for the ideas Psycho and Goliat, I really do love this deck and want to keep piloting it. GW just takes some precise play and decision making but that what makes this deck great.
For the Wurm tokens if they do get down, do you use Turn and block them with the woodlots to remove them once down? I was 1-1 in the final round of the daily yesterday until a Token trampled all over me =(
Specters seem terrible against gw, 'deck thinning' is not an actual thing and almost all their creatures are bigger than it.
Dispel is a good card against them though.
If we are working within the deck's creature choices, then the Specters are the best by far. Staticcasters only work against early Experimental One's and nothing else without another spell or Ral Zarek's -2....
It just seems like this deck is amazing post board but it is terribly susceptible to threats during game 1. It's almost like we have to be on the play to be a threat, and against aggressive decks there aren't enough answers in the world with the mana fixing to be that easy for GW and RDW.
I have almost exactly the same deck but I do not like the scry lands yet. It's just personal opinion but with this aggro heavy meta I feel like losing a turn of being able to cast something really hurts us. Underworld Connections helps with variance enough for me usually.
And also, I am starting to regret playing 4 mutavault. Most time they do nothing while they are out, and really cripple us with all the double black that is needed. I might go down to 3.
Pack rat is a really good 2 drop right now, I'd think most people would agree
Mana base consistency is a thing, plus having to either have lands that come into play tapped or you have to pay 2 life in order for them to be untapped is dangers with Mono Red being so prevalent. Rakdos's Return is the only card that I think would be really good on a splash, but again thats trying to accomplish something very different from what the Mono Black is trying to accomplish. With Lifebane and Thoughtseize (and sometimes Duress on the sideboard) I will have plenty of knowledge of what the opponent has and what threats to deal with.
While I do like Corrupt, I may concede to bringing in 3 Nightveil Specters to replace them and the Overlord. I won't be splashing any time soon and have yet to see any 4-0's from RB combinations on MTGO and plenty of 4-0 from the Mono Black. You may see it as a matter of opinion that Mono Black is a better ideal deck, but unless the meta drastically changes the deck has been producing without the need for much change to the core.
Black does not have a proper Wrath of God in standard so this card has a tremendous amount of applications especially against aggro.
After plenty of playtesting, I am confident enough in the deck to try out this deck in an online tourney, and I figured TNMO- Standard would be a safe enough place to try it out officially.
Deck list is the same as David_CN here:
https://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/6074305
Match 1(0-0) was against a BUG deck that had a metric ton of removal
Game 1 Lifebane Zombie took care of the creatures and Corrupt to the face worked out an easy win
Game 2 Was a little more harrowing since the guy sided in every counter and creature removal he had. I had a Pithing nNedle opening hand so it neutralized his Aetherling but a late game Scavenging Ooze was too much to handle at the end.
Game 3 Whip of Erebos + a Erebos on the board made this game make a complete 180 in my favor and led to a grind out win. (2 to 1)
Match 2 (1-0) was against a UB version of this deck
Game 1 was a back and forth but I was unlucky enough to only get my Doom Blades in hand as removal, his Nightveil Specters ground me out by taking my Whip of Erebos
Game 2 was an exercise in the frustration that is MTGO sometimes. I had 2 lands in hand with 2 lifebane zombies and a whip and 2 hero's downfall. Unfortunately I did not get a third land for 3 turns and by then I was way too far behind. Easy win for the opponent (0 to 2)
Match 3 (1-1) was the most advantageous match I think we have, which was against Mono White Weenie.
I won't even list the games because they both were over by turn 5 or 6. Thoughtseizing their God Willing's ruins this deck. Lifebane stole the show, I probably could have won with just them alone.
Some thoughts:
Abhorrent Overlord is going to get moved to the SB, and maybe from the deck period. It's a win more card and unless I was playing some sort of control shell it almost never sees play. I also may include a single Nykthos for some late game shenanigans.
I know people do not like Corrupt but it is an absolute engine for this deck. I like the creature vs spell balance, and I will probably just mainboard an Erebos to replace the Overlord.
I don't want to splash any color at all. Splashing a color completely changes the characteristics of the deck and really is a whole different deck all together. In my playtesting the only really difficult matchups were Mono Red and Mono Black. Mono red can be dealt with pretty easily post board, but Mono Black can be just a battle of who gets out a whip first. I am pleased with the deck overall and I will bring it to dailies and report back.
I like the BW idea but I think it totally changes what this deck is really about. In my opinion the deck is about surprise tricks with creatures and vial, along with mana denial and chump blocking lifegain with finks.
BW and GW just feel like totally completely different deck archtypes...
Ah yes, you are correct.
Anyways, spellskite isn't a good for a deck that is at it's core pretty aggressive. As long as you can keep the MVP's alive the deck does really well against the field.
I havn't had the time to enter in my decklist into the dailies but I wanna try soon
I'm not a big spellskite fan for this deck, but equipping a spellskite with a sword doesn't really hamper its ability to absorb spells unless the spells are super conditional such as Go for The Throat which can't target the spellskite to begin with. If it changed a lightning bolt to itself and it had pro red the spell would just do no damage.....
Anyways, I like the instant flicker type of spells for the deck better than other creature answers. It allows Finks to become much more of a beast and protects your beaters in the Angels and Crusaders.
I run mangara as a 1 of just as another option against planeswalkers, which this deck has difficulty dealing with.
The problem is that 1 toughness and being a white 3 CC creature makes it vulnerable to every removal in the format. Unless you can Vial it in, or have some sort of resto angel or blinking protection it's not going to be on the board long.
I've been utilizing otherworldly journey in order to not only abuse the kitchen finks but to protect the real MVP's of the deck (Hero of Bladehold/Serra Avenger/Mirran Crusader). Otherwise any deck with red in it is just going to plink your 2 CC creatures unless you get a Forge-Tender on board. Also forge tender is almost necessary in the sideboard because it keeps Pyroclasm from completely clearing your board.
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Serra Avenger
2 Hero of Bladehold
4 Dryad Militant
4 Kitchen Finks
2 Mirran Crusader
4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Dismember
4 Path to Exile
3 Otherworldly Journey
4 Æther Vial
Lands
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Tectonic Edge
15 Plains
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Dismember
2 Rest in Peace
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Day of Judgment
2 Stony Silence
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Mangara of Corondor
2 Disenchant
With the meta being heavy Jund/Storm/Tron/Affinity, the deck does well against the field. It also does well against rogue decks and tribal based (fairies and merfolk i'm looking at you!) . However i've really had struggles against the more control based blue/red decks....BUT Otherworldly Journey has been SO clutch against those decks!
For example I have blinked out targets for Splinter-Twin, killing the combo, kept my life total strong by blinking Finks, or making Jund's life hell by returning a 3/3 Mirran Crusader to the field or saving some of my creatures from burn.
U/R Delver or Storm Decks pose the biggest problems that I can see. U/R Delver just counters/bounces or bolt's my threats and Storm can usually pull out a win on the first game unless I get a finks out fast. Post-board storm isn't much of a problem, but U/R Delver still usually has an edge. Hexproof decks are also probably in the 40% win category but I have not played them much since I added Otherworldly Journey. It will probably help chump block until I can get answers or Day of Judgment.
Comments? Ideas? I was thinking of -1 Leonin Arbiter for +1 Resto Angel or Blade Splicer and since it's not a black heavy meta going Sword of War and Peace over Light and Shadow...I might also drop the revoker and put in pithing needle, since revoker almost never stays on the board very long. And I might add another Dismember (and will definitely do that once Theros comes out for all the indestructable shenanigans)
It's not a money making venture unless you are less than %1 of players. Either you do well and keep your EV kind of even or you spend money in order to enjoy a hobby.
After some initial investment you never have to pay for anything again, getting into phantom sealed tourneys is completely your choice. Think of it as a really cheap way to burn a couple hours.
This isn't as world breaking as it may seem...
There goes my pre-order~!
https://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/5738663
2 Aetherling 2 Turn/Burn and an extra Counterflux on the MB and SB than I use and no Frostburn Wierd.
Very interesting build but it worked!
Thanks for the ideas Psycho and Goliat, I really do love this deck and want to keep piloting it. GW just takes some precise play and decision making but that what makes this deck great.
For the Wurm tokens if they do get down, do you use Turn and block them with the woodlots to remove them once down? I was 1-1 in the final round of the daily yesterday until a Token trampled all over me =(
If we are working within the deck's creature choices, then the Specters are the best by far. Staticcasters only work against early Experimental One's and nothing else without another spell or Ral Zarek's -2....
It just seems like this deck is amazing post board but it is terribly susceptible to threats during game 1. It's almost like we have to be on the play to be a threat, and against aggressive decks there aren't enough answers in the world with the mana fixing to be that easy for GW and RDW.
I will try the 2'nd dispel and see how it goes...