My opinion is that the linear decks are already gold matchups, so why slant the deck in a way that focuses on those matchups instead of trying to even out our inherently bad matchups? Not to mention when you have traverse and bauble you can run less lands while having greater access to Snapcaster Mage, meaning you draw interaction at highter rates. That's where I want to be against linear decks, anyways.
It's actually about the same as before in post #4331. Firespout and Anger come in against the same decks for the most part to that change doesn't matter, and the sideboard threats are different but you basically bring them all in or none. Censor you kinda have to determine case by case, usually if counterspells are bad you can cut it as long as you have something better to bring in. Against jund I don't think I do, for example.
If there's a specific question or matchup you want to know is be happy to cover it but last time I typed that up it took a long time haha
I suppose you're right in that k command is a two for one no matter what mode they choose, maybe I'm looking at collar wrong in that matchup.
Oh and definitely agree on not cutting mandrills. I actually never do that in any matchup I don't think. Being able to burn goyf and then shrink it with delve is actually our most reliable/efficient way to do it, honestly. So often I'll spend three mana to bolt goyf, tutor for mandrills, and then cast it to send goyf to the yard. It's a great play.
The matchups where deprive and moon are in together for me are: scapeshift variants, tron, ad nauseum, and U/x/x control. In those matchups Having that extra counterspell is so essential because they can essentially beat you with one card (except control) so an occasional stumble to get UU with moon in play I think is worth it to have a hard two mana answer to anything they put on the stack. Particularly because if moon is in play you may not even need to counter spells with any urgency.
Sorry, I absolutely do bring in collar against Humans, I was just posting on mobile from memory.
I skip collar against jund because of k command and generally drawing the game out any longer than we have to isn't ideal there as their card quality is so much better. Against decks like grixis/shadow variants I actually have a chance to counter k command but not against jund, and I think that's a big difference. It is miles better than a counterspell with BBE of course.
I also take out tarfire because it quickly makes opposing goyfs unroastable and instantly invalidates mandrills against goyf. That and confidant is the only surefire creature it kills and I personally wouldn't keep that in against us if I was on Jund.
Pretty simple as far as which cards are bad here, and the goal is just to improve topdecks/add removal.
For control matchups generally it's the same in that I bring all my threats in, but usually dropping burn spells, but the power level of moon varies greatly between the different control shells so I sometimes forgo them for more burn. Bring in deprive as well.
Against humans I've actually been taking out delver to fully play the control role and not lead to awkward situations with Anger.
In: 2 blood moon, 1 Magus of the moon, 1 roast, 2 Anger, 1 EE, 1 huntmaster, 1 knuckleblade, 1 ancient grudge, 2 destructive revelry
The moon plan is seriously underrated here. You plan on killing their mana dorks and vials anyways, and they're basically playing city of brass.deck. Generally if you can get them topdecking and you tutor up huntmaster, that's game.
After much fiddling with Jace I decided that, while powerful, the number of matchups where I actually wanted to bring him in was abysmally small. It seems fighting off BBE and Humans will take priority in the sideboard for some time to come.
After spending a lot of time thinking about which cantrip I wanted to add as the 60th card (3rd scour, 4th bauble, something else entirely) it sort of hit me like a brick, Censor is the perfect one mana cantrip for this deck. It gives me an extra counterspell against decks that I desperately need to interact with on the stack while filtering away against Cavern of Souls or heavy discard. If you get caught holding it up and your opponent plays under it, you can just cycle it and still have a mana available for any interaction you draw. I actually have been keeping it in against Jund over mana leak to fight off Lilliana early and cycle for threats late and I have been seriously impressed. I wouldn't run it over a counterspell, but over a cantrip it's a really solid choice. Paired with Curator and Traverse I feel the deck finally has ways to mitigate the problems that tempo decks have always had without brainstorm, having the right card at the wrong time. They can seem like they have a minor impact as I cycle them frequently but when you want to play the card at face value it feels awesome.
I've been really happy with Roast in the main. It has certainly had its bad moments but no more than players with path/push have against creatureless decks so really almost isn't worth mentioning.
Dropping my single Bojuka Bog and swapping my Firespouts for Anger has definitely seemed correct. Double red hasn't been an issue and if I draw it against Dredge I have yet to lose. Flipping that matchup on its own is worth it.
Huntmaster is probably the singular best card we have against Humans. They absolutely struggle to answer it and rarely hold cards to stop it from flipping. If you kill something like Meddling Mage or Freebooter to turn removal spells back on its pretty much over. I may consider bringing him back up to 2 copies in the future.
I feel the need to reiterate how insane it is to tutor for Magus of the Moon. That ***** is genuinely unfair and I love it.
I don't know if it would be better than other threat options, but after seeing it in action in the format I really believe Dire Fleet Daredevil could be a sideboard piece for us against Jund and decks like it. For starters, 2 power and first strike is the perfect roadblock for a dumb 3/2 elf I know. Against that same deck we struggle to answer their primary threat in Tarmogoyf and Daredevil opens up plenty of opportunities to take down a goyf for 3-4 mana with extra value. We don't have many cards that can do that. Turn three tapping out for a Daredevil and a thoughtseize to rip a threat we can't kill sounds pretty good too. Not to mention the late game shenanigans involving k command or collective brutality.
Other places it's useful:
Against burn, lightning helix would obviously be amazing but any burn is solid when paired with a way to wall guide.
Against Dredge, you can tutor him up to exile a loam, conflagrate, gnaw to bone, or looting as a piece of grave hate. It's niche but solid.
It truly is only a sideboard card but it can be ridiculously effective in the right matchups. Against decks like humans, merfolk, eldrazi that are creature centric but lite in removal, Huntmaster comes down after your primary threats have already taxed opposing removal spells and the lifegain + blocker will always be relevant. These strategies play out their hands quickly making multiple flips quite easy to pull off at the stage of the game you want to deploy Huntmaster anyways. Lifegain and removal is great value, but once he flips having a 4/4 trampler, at least one 2/2, and 2 direct damage is a wonderful late game surge of aggression in one card. The fact that it doubles as a tool to fight off removal heavy midrange and control decks is not necessarily where it shines but makes its applications as a sideboard card much greater as it impacts many more matchups than other possible.
I will point out it is particularly good against both BBE, Jace, and humans. That's pretty broad coverage.
Against BBE, if they flip Lilliana you sac the token, let huntmaster flip on your following turn to kill both the elf and Lilliana leaving you with a 4/4 with upside and then nothing. If they hit other removal both players trade 4 mana and a card, assuming you block the elf with the wolf.
It leaves jace stranded in hand until they can answer huntmaster, as bouncing either him or the wolf leaves the Jace dying right away.
It's not ever going to be amazing in modern because it's a 4 drop but it's a good card that has its roles.
I like the sphere but not being able to cut Eldrazi off of colorless is a deal breaker for me. I think the tron matchup is better than any Eldrazi variant anyways. Storm is a good matchup while jund/abzan are not, which makes Moon the more valuable piece overall.
I hate etched champion. During Eldrazi winter when I ran two ceremonious rejections in the board my affinity matchup was so good just due to the crossover. Rejection really is great there.
I usually go fairly minimal on threats against affinity and bring in every piece of removal in the 75. At three mana it can Be slow but in conjunction with all your other interaction you buy yourself enough time to play it and it kills your real target (overseer, skirge, master of etherium) while cleaning up any ornithopters/memnites you otherwise wouldn't waste removal on but are annoying nonetheless.
@mike
I wasn't trying to understate CO's effectiveness once it's in play. So many hands (particularly mulligans) start with just lands cantrips and interaction and you have to dig for threats. The enchantment just limits your ability to translate those hands into somewhat aggressive starts while in itself can at times be a poor topdeck. It does have 'home run' potential though in that you can run away with the game whichever is a lot for a one drop. I think using that card will just come down to personal preference, as it can be a little boom or bust.
Also, I've been really happy with Roast in the main. It's been dead a few times but not a huge deal.
The double red cost is tough, but I'll at least be testing it again. Against spreading seas it may not be doable.
Why not bring in Anger against affinity though? I always liked sweepers there personally.
After seeing several different archetypes incorporate Curious Obsession lately it's obvious it's powerful say the least. My issue with it here is that it's best on a one drop and we usually only have 4. That and if your opponent has immediate answers for your first few threats it's either dead in hand or has its target removed. If you were to build more around it with max shoal, and more one drops it could be the basis of a really good tempo strategy. I don't think our current shell supports more than one of these.
You know I was huge on curator, but don't know how I could justify an extra cantrip at this point when the deck suddenly crammed two 4 mana walkers. I tried a copy of Jace in the main but it led to some awkward moments so I think for us it's best as a sideboard piece. To include both jaces in my board I took a page out of mikefon's book and moved a roast to the maindeck to hopefully get more out of my sideboard.
I'm considering swapping firespout for anger of the gods for the same reason. I don't want to ruin my sideboard by clogging it with grave hate but I don't want to be without a hard answer to dredge. Firespout is the superior card here, but if it lets me drop Bojuka bog and get more out of my board it may be worth it. Can anyone sell me on anger?
A Starcity writer called it out as a potential spec target today, so now it's already starting to move. I'm not sure what shell wants to max out on both Jace and a free counter but there's definitely potential for a powerful tempo deck. Also, pitch an extra Jace to counter a Jace. Sounds fun.
Unrelated, but if we ever find ourselves in the potential abyss of a Modern riddled with routine Jace on Jace exchanges, a Treetop Village could be a great sideboard card. 3 damage is the sweet spot to hit Jace and two mana to activate it manageable even for this deck.
I don't think the banlist update has happened on the MTGO client as of now so have yet to play with Jace. Will try to squeeze in a few leaves when it happens.
@mnesci
Also worth noting your simic charm would have protected collar from k command. Looks like you dominated lol.
I wouldn't say Melody was 'bad' but it just compared to EE so poorly in terms of the number of matchups in which you actually want it that it's hard to justify its inclusion over a second EE if that's the sort of removal you are looking for. EE is a bomb against affinity, lantern, bogles etc while being a serviceable sweeper in other creature matchups. Melody comes in against deaths shadow, other tarmogoyf decks, and nacatls and not that many other places, and if you look all of those matchups are ground EE also already covers. This format is so hard to cover with a sideboard, which makes melody narrow, even if powerful.
I actually havnt found hollow one to be that poor, like all the street wraith decks. Outside of their nut draws, tarmogoyf instantly outclasses all their threats. I commonly trade mandrills early with hollow ones. I run vapor snag to somewhat eliminate early hollow one plays and the cheap counters can stop their looting/goblin lore which leaves them durdling early. Out of the board roast and the artifact hate is a huge help and they are usually the unprepared for basilisk collar.
The Phoenix is a little annoying though so I try to remove their threat precombat; if a lose this matchups is generally due to big game hunter. So good.
While I like curator a lot, it was the obvious luxury slot that would Ben perfect to fit in a Jace. I'm also testing a second copy over bedlam reveler in the board and I'm feelings really hopeful about these changes. Jace is...awesome. Having a reliable source of card advantage could be exactly what the ddck needs.
@mnesci
Against UW I cut almost all my burn, load up on threats/moon/counters
Jace was actually about the same price before the ban so How is it fleecing? Those who held them have their investment back. Those that sold high simply have to buy back in, no value lost. Those who never had them? Well it's a really good card with a really high demand so, just like any other magic card, be prepared to pay or crack packs.
In hindsight all this overreaction is going to be funny, as Jace proves itself to be relatively fair. Tron, Bogles, Burn, Lantern, Storm, Ad Nauseum, Titanshift, and Affinity frankly aren't even a little scared of Jace, and would actually hope to see their opponents tap out on turn for nothing but brainstorm. How can a card that (more or less) blanks against over half the format be dangerous for the game?
If there's a specific question or matchup you want to know is be happy to cover it but last time I typed that up it took a long time haha
Oh and definitely agree on not cutting mandrills. I actually never do that in any matchup I don't think. Being able to burn goyf and then shrink it with delve is actually our most reliable/efficient way to do it, honestly. So often I'll spend three mana to bolt goyf, tutor for mandrills, and then cast it to send goyf to the yard. It's a great play.
The matchups where deprive and moon are in together for me are: scapeshift variants, tron, ad nauseum, and U/x/x control. In those matchups Having that extra counterspell is so essential because they can essentially beat you with one card (except control) so an occasional stumble to get UU with moon in play I think is worth it to have a hard two mana answer to anything they put on the stack. Particularly because if moon is in play you may not even need to counter spells with any urgency.
I skip collar against jund because of k command and generally drawing the game out any longer than we have to isn't ideal there as their card quality is so much better. Against decks like grixis/shadow variants I actually have a chance to counter k command but not against jund, and I think that's a big difference. It is miles better than a counterspell with BBE of course.
I also take out tarfire because it quickly makes opposing goyfs unroastable and instantly invalidates mandrills against goyf. That and confidant is the only surefire creature it kills and I personally wouldn't keep that in against us if I was on Jund.
How has deprive worked for you?
In: 2 Blood Moon, 1 Huntmaster, 1 knuckleblade, 1 roast, 1 EE
Out: 2 tarfire, 3 stubborn denial, 1 mana leak
Pretty simple as far as which cards are bad here, and the goal is just to improve topdecks/add removal.
For control matchups generally it's the same in that I bring all my threats in, but usually dropping burn spells, but the power level of moon varies greatly between the different control shells so I sometimes forgo them for more burn. Bring in deprive as well.
Against humans I've actually been taking out delver to fully play the control role and not lead to awkward situations with Anger.
Out: 4 delver, 3 stubborn denial, 2 mana leak, 1 censor, 2 spell snare
In: 2 blood moon, 1 Magus of the moon, 1 roast, 2 Anger, 1 EE, 1 huntmaster, 1 knuckleblade, 1 ancient grudge, 2 destructive revelry
The moon plan is seriously underrated here. You plan on killing their mana dorks and vials anyways, and they're basically playing city of brass.deck. Generally if you can get them topdecking and you tutor up huntmaster, that's game.
After much fiddling with Jace I decided that, while powerful, the number of matchups where I actually wanted to bring him in was abysmally small. It seems fighting off BBE and Humans will take priority in the sideboard for some time to come.
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Gnarlwood Dryad
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Hooting Mandrills
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Curator of Mysteries
Spells:29
4 Serum Visions
3 Mishra's Bauble
3 Traverse the Ulvenwald
2 Thought Scour
1 Censor
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Tarfire
1 Roast
2 Vapor Snag
3 Stubborn Denial
2 Spell Snare
2 Mana Leak
2 Steam Vents
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Feed the Clan
1 Deprive
2 Destructive Revelry
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Roast
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Savage Knuckleblade
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Magus of the Moon
2 Blood Moon
After spending a lot of time thinking about which cantrip I wanted to add as the 60th card (3rd scour, 4th bauble, something else entirely) it sort of hit me like a brick, Censor is the perfect one mana cantrip for this deck. It gives me an extra counterspell against decks that I desperately need to interact with on the stack while filtering away against Cavern of Souls or heavy discard. If you get caught holding it up and your opponent plays under it, you can just cycle it and still have a mana available for any interaction you draw. I actually have been keeping it in against Jund over mana leak to fight off Lilliana early and cycle for threats late and I have been seriously impressed. I wouldn't run it over a counterspell, but over a cantrip it's a really solid choice. Paired with Curator and Traverse I feel the deck finally has ways to mitigate the problems that tempo decks have always had without brainstorm, having the right card at the wrong time. They can seem like they have a minor impact as I cycle them frequently but when you want to play the card at face value it feels awesome.
I've been really happy with Roast in the main. It has certainly had its bad moments but no more than players with path/push have against creatureless decks so really almost isn't worth mentioning.
Dropping my single Bojuka Bog and swapping my Firespouts for Anger has definitely seemed correct. Double red hasn't been an issue and if I draw it against Dredge I have yet to lose. Flipping that matchup on its own is worth it.
Huntmaster is probably the singular best card we have against Humans. They absolutely struggle to answer it and rarely hold cards to stop it from flipping. If you kill something like Meddling Mage or Freebooter to turn removal spells back on its pretty much over. I may consider bringing him back up to 2 copies in the future.
I feel the need to reiterate how insane it is to tutor for Magus of the Moon. That ***** is genuinely unfair and I love it.
I don't know if it would be better than other threat options, but after seeing it in action in the format I really believe Dire Fleet Daredevil could be a sideboard piece for us against Jund and decks like it. For starters, 2 power and first strike is the perfect roadblock for a dumb 3/2 elf I know. Against that same deck we struggle to answer their primary threat in Tarmogoyf and Daredevil opens up plenty of opportunities to take down a goyf for 3-4 mana with extra value. We don't have many cards that can do that. Turn three tapping out for a Daredevil and a thoughtseize to rip a threat we can't kill sounds pretty good too. Not to mention the late game shenanigans involving k command or collective brutality.
Other places it's useful:
Against burn, lightning helix would obviously be amazing but any burn is solid when paired with a way to wall guide.
Against Dredge, you can tutor him up to exile a loam, conflagrate, gnaw to bone, or looting as a piece of grave hate. It's niche but solid.
Thoughts?
I will point out it is particularly good against both BBE, Jace, and humans. That's pretty broad coverage.
Against BBE, if they flip Lilliana you sac the token, let huntmaster flip on your following turn to kill both the elf and Lilliana leaving you with a 4/4 with upside and then nothing. If they hit other removal both players trade 4 mana and a card, assuming you block the elf with the wolf.
It leaves jace stranded in hand until they can answer huntmaster, as bouncing either him or the wolf leaves the Jace dying right away.
It's not ever going to be amazing in modern because it's a 4 drop but it's a good card that has its roles.
I usually go fairly minimal on threats against affinity and bring in every piece of removal in the 75. At three mana it can Be slow but in conjunction with all your other interaction you buy yourself enough time to play it and it kills your real target (overseer, skirge, master of etherium) while cleaning up any ornithopters/memnites you otherwise wouldn't waste removal on but are annoying nonetheless.
@mike
I wasn't trying to understate CO's effectiveness once it's in play. So many hands (particularly mulligans) start with just lands cantrips and interaction and you have to dig for threats. The enchantment just limits your ability to translate those hands into somewhat aggressive starts while in itself can at times be a poor topdeck. It does have 'home run' potential though in that you can run away with the game whichever is a lot for a one drop. I think using that card will just come down to personal preference, as it can be a little boom or bust.
Also, I've been really happy with Roast in the main. It's been dead a few times but not a huge deal.
Why not bring in Anger against affinity though? I always liked sweepers there personally.
After seeing several different archetypes incorporate Curious Obsession lately it's obvious it's powerful say the least. My issue with it here is that it's best on a one drop and we usually only have 4. That and if your opponent has immediate answers for your first few threats it's either dead in hand or has its target removed. If you were to build more around it with max shoal, and more one drops it could be the basis of a really good tempo strategy. I don't think our current shell supports more than one of these.
I'm considering swapping firespout for anger of the gods for the same reason. I don't want to ruin my sideboard by clogging it with grave hate but I don't want to be without a hard answer to dredge. Firespout is the superior card here, but if it lets me drop Bojuka bog and get more out of my board it may be worth it. Can anyone sell me on anger?
Unrelated, but if we ever find ourselves in the potential abyss of a Modern riddled with routine Jace on Jace exchanges, a Treetop Village could be a great sideboard card. 3 damage is the sweet spot to hit Jace and two mana to activate it manageable even for this deck.
@mnesci
Also worth noting your simic charm would have protected collar from k command. Looks like you dominated lol.
I actually havnt found hollow one to be that poor, like all the street wraith decks. Outside of their nut draws, tarmogoyf instantly outclasses all their threats. I commonly trade mandrills early with hollow ones. I run vapor snag to somewhat eliminate early hollow one plays and the cheap counters can stop their looting/goblin lore which leaves them durdling early. Out of the board roast and the artifact hate is a huge help and they are usually the unprepared for basilisk collar.
The Phoenix is a little annoying though so I try to remove their threat precombat; if a lose this matchups is generally due to big game hunter. So good.
Little update to those interested-
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Gnarlwood Dryad
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Savage Knuckleblade
2 Hooting Mandrills
Artifacts:3
3 Mishra's Bauble
Sorceries:7
4 Serum Visions
3 Traverse the Ulvenwald
Instants:18
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Snare
3 Stubborn Denial
2 Tarfire
2 Thought Scour
2 Vapor Snag
1 Deprive
2 Mana Leak
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lands:17
1 Breeding Pool
1 Forest
2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Basilisk Collar
2 Roast
2 Firespout
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Destructive Revelry
1 Feed the Clan
2 Blood Moon
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Bojuka Bog
While I like curator a lot, it was the obvious luxury slot that would Ben perfect to fit in a Jace. I'm also testing a second copy over bedlam reveler in the board and I'm feelings really hopeful about these changes. Jace is...awesome. Having a reliable source of card advantage could be exactly what the ddck needs.
@mnesci
Against UW I cut almost all my burn, load up on threats/moon/counters
In hindsight all this overreaction is going to be funny, as Jace proves itself to be relatively fair. Tron, Bogles, Burn, Lantern, Storm, Ad Nauseum, Titanshift, and Affinity frankly aren't even a little scared of Jace, and would actually hope to see their opponents tap out on turn for nothing but brainstorm. How can a card that (more or less) blanks against over half the format be dangerous for the game?
Cmon now. That's silly.