MTG Salvation

I was so nervous it was going to be stoneforge. That card would wreck us. (But that's for another thread)

As already stated, Temur unbannings! At least there's potential for us this time around, even if it in reality only helps other decks.

I don't think we will be implementing BBE in any fashion. While the guaranteed 2-for-1 makes it a good card against any deck trying to beat you with value, the decks we would bring it in against don't care much about a 3/2 at all. Jund abzan grixis and Mardu have no trouble simply outclassing BBE on the ground and nullifying it's impact as that second spell gained from casting it. If they are ever forced to use removal on it that's great but for four mana I think this deck in particular wants something with a higher rate of success closing out games, by winning on its own. I could see it paired with blue to some degree of success in modern but not with delver I don't think. It is great against Jace though.

Jace is a little complicated and I'm frankly not very sure at all. He will need testing. I know for certain 2 would be the most you could fit in the 75, and 1 in the MB would probably be the limit as well. Jace is a ridiculously powerful permanent but many of moderns predators can ignore him almost completely. Tron, Affinity, Titanshift, Burn, Ad nauseum, etc. would love to see us tap out on turn four for Jace. He would be greatly effective against our bad matchups in midrange/control but may be too narrow (in terms of what decks it is 'safe' against) for the main deck.

That being said...he doesn't flip delver, isn't a threat, can't be tutored for, and isn't necessarily effective in a majority of modern matchups. The bar for entry into this deck for a card that fits those specs is ridiculously high, and Jace must do a ton of work to correct bad matchups in my mind to justify its inclusion. Definitely possible though, it is THE Jace.


One thing I wanted to point out about the Jace unbanning, stubborn denial just got a huge boost in relevance. People are going to be licking their lips when they hit four lands and see us with a mere, single island untapped...

That, and you'd be crazy not to be packing a Savage Knuckleblade to get out from under a Jace from now on.

I think this is a very reasonable line of thought. If you don't have the hate in your opening hand it often won't be enough, and this deck can't really afford to jam 3-4 pieces like some decks do. (If only we had nihil spellbomb..)

Dredge isn't going to be good unless you really dedicate a lot of slots so shoring up other matchups could be worthwhile.

@mnesci
I like that seas can complement blood moon by turning off opponents basics. During eldrazi winter most of us were running 3 moon 2 seas and it worked great. Hitti manlands is really good too. Three blood moon can be awkward sometimes when your opponents draws a waste/basics. Even when moon is a bomb drawing multiplex can lose you games. I could see a 2/1 split but if you havnt tried tutoring up a Magus of the moon, it's awesome. Can't bring it in against bolt but so often I can bring it in as my only moon affect and have great access to it. Humans is a great example where it's much better than moon. Naturally helps against multi moon draws as against decks like jeskai you only bring in two. Against decks like eldrazi, you essentially have 6 blood moons. Prettt sweet.

There's a reason clique has seen so much play in eternal formats. It's not a big player in modern for a number of reasons but what is essentially a pre-flipped delver with flash for three mana it absolutely fits into our aggressive gameplan while extending your game against any deck trying to go over the top of you. Doubles down as great against removal heavy decks. (Steal a push/demands a push). I personally wish I could fit it in.

There's a bigger showing of death and taxes/coco/soul sisters and things like that online so perhaps I see more that others. Boros burn too. Revelry is great elsewhere so it's not there necessarily because RIP is everywhere.

I will add that deprive is naturally a better sideboard card for us than a MB inclusion as I am currently doing, because then you only have to fetch for it when you bring it in. Also, if you board it in that means they have 'must-counter' spells so the land bounce should generally be even more likely to be negligible. I only moved it to the main recently in an attempt to get more out of my sideboard.

There's loaming shaman or ooze. There's also that dinosaur. 3/2 for 2G, exiles stuff in the yard to gain life or a pump, but I don't know if those are fast enough.

@mike

Whoops, I forgot what flashfreeze did halfway through that post it seems...lol

I'm interested in your tracker results

I like the idea of extraction. Beats goryo. Against dredge pulling amalgam seems like it would often be enough. Other than that conflagrate can beat you but their aggro plan would be diminished. Against living end if you counter the first living end you just extract it and it leaves them dead in the water. Plus snapcaster lets you do it twice for only two mana total. That's cool.

Just try to remember with curator it's a cantrip first and a threat second. I aggressively cycle it away where a 4/4 flyer isn't likely to be better than interaction. Being able to use it on turn one to help dig for lands/interaction is the best feature a creature can have in a 17 land deck. Doubling down as a threat against our worst matchups is gravy.

I like seas, bur with three slots already dedicated to blood moon, four total is a lot and limits your interaction suite quite a bit. I do like that it is good against both midrange/control AND the big mana decks. Have you tried clique here? In conjunction with counters it really enhances a permission suite IMO, and tutoring for it on a critical turn is great.

It stands out to me that you only have one Revelry and an EE to deal with RIP. I'm too scared to run without two Revelry myself. The cards just really good against us.

I also really like forked bolt here and have argued for it much in the past but with traverse I think I would always give the nod to tarfire. Unless forked bolt was in the board.

The counterspell debate is one I've had over this deck quite a bit and it's a tough call. The options are effective but narrow. I see flashfreeze has merits against burn but unless it hits deflecting palm it's generally going to work about 4 life. That's good but not gamebreaking. It's great against shift except...it misses through the breach. Falls flat against tron any all combo. I'm not sure where this card shines in the format honestly. Stroke is good against tron, shift, ad nauseum, reasonable against storm for gifts/pif, Ok against jeskai for nahiri and cryptic but not great, effective against eldrazi, and other places but some matchups where you really want an extra counter it does nothing. Like lantern control for example. Rejection is probably the most powerful overall but the most narrow. A bomb against tron, lantern, eldrazi, and affinity(countering champion is amazing), hits lotus bloom from ad nauseum...ect. But completely misses archetypes all together.

In a deck where you already have moon clogging up the board space, most of us are already compromising on graveyard hate to do so. That makes every sideboard slot incredibly valuable, meaning narrow counters arnt going to be as big of a contributor as one you can bring in to a diverse array of matchups. This is why Deprive has been my go to complement to mana leak in this deck. I would say at least 80% of the time it is functionally counterspell. We always miss land drops so replaying a land the next turn is usually not even a draw back. I often use it on my turn to generate a mana (net loss of one mana for counterspell? Wow) when opponents try to disrupt my combat step with removal. Sure, the land bounce can hurt occasionally, but nothing makes a counterspell worse than being dead in hand or not even worth bringing in to matchups where you need another counter desperately. Deprive never misses and comes in whenever I need more permission. I love it.

@mike

I see you dropped a mandrills. What led to that?

Also, how has extraction been for you?

I'm glad I see so many of us on Knuckeblade now. So many wouldn't give him a chance!

When I first included collar I always brought it in against shadow but less often after being hit by command a few too many times. If they weren't so heavy on discard the counters would be better and it would be a safer play but I really don't like the two mana counters here, at least leak. It is a really good trump to their hard to deal with threats but if the game goes long they usually answer it. Perfectly reasonable to bring in though, a couple of stubborn denials can easily carry it to victory.

Agreed with mike, steel overseer needs to die on sight and any early ravaged won't be able to survive a roast even with modular shenanigans. Master of etherium also often falls within range, at least for a while. Every once in a while I take out a key signal pest or something. What's really essential is being able to use the roast in order to save a bolt/tarfire in hand to protect against big cranial/ravaged swings or manlands.

Bog in itself is pretty weak. Getting what is essentially colorless mana from it after is nice and it has synergy with deprive but it can't be the only interaction you have against grace decks. For living end you're most likely going to have to counter 1 living end and then on your following turn when you play bog, they 99% of the time living end again in response which you obviously must also counter. Generally that leaves them pretty much out of gas or at least gives you a window to win. I think my delerium access is pretty good. I lose to end because I don't have a second counter or don't find traverse/bog but not really because traverse is dead. Curator is cute here but isn't a huge game changer, although only jungle weaver/macabre blocks it so if they have to cast end on their turn you could get a chance to bash for four.

Yeah you're right about collar and grapeshot. Only if they don't have a baral and/or PIf would the storm be low enough to matter. I will say that they seem to always go for the empty the warrens plan with me, hoping to spit out a bunch of tokens early when I'm establishing a board. I don't always bring in collar though, I previously only ran one firespout and brought collar in as a third way to fight empty the warrens but no longer.

At least online hollow one is everywhere so delver creatures are seeing more play than ever and they help fill out the removal suite in a ton of other matchups so while its not a perfect card its the card we need IMO.

Collar may be less valuable now because there is less eldrazi but it doubles down as a powerful anti burn piece, let's you race/wall a fat Slippery Bogle, race etched champion, lets your snapcaster trade with a 7/7 champion of the parish, and really gives you a counter to so many aggressive draws in the format that would usually crush a tempo deck like this. Not many other cards can save you from a multiple hollow one+angler+Phoenix start, but collar can.

happy to.

Traverse really is awesome. Makes so many one land hands keepers that would otherwise be questionable and has so much late game power.

No problem! If I skip any you would want to know about just say so.

I've been trying some sideboard tweaks as I've been seeing more of the meta. The MD right now is: -1 remand +1 deprive.
Sideboard is: -1 deprive -1 vendilion clique +1 roast +1 bedlam reveler. Hurts the big mana matchups and combo but way too many fair decks are being played right now and roast is now a premium sideboard piece IMO.


I don't have this written down anywhere so I don't always follow this exact plan and oftentimes people have unique lists that call for unique setups. Sometimes I'll leave in an extra counter, or leave in knuckleblade, or bring in feed the clan against aggro, or take out a cantrips to include more interaction- all depending on individual opponents lists- but this is a good place to start for each matchup. I did it quick so sorry for any errors.

@mnesci Just curious, why don't you like it against Shadow variants?

I agree RR is rough but at least it's usually always castable when moon is out.

@mike
I understand we have to do more than draw cards, but to resolve a 3/4 prowess body that gets you three extra cards is the exact thing that puts you ahead of their removal spells to close out game. If you cast reveler, drawing a goyf/mandrills and a counterspell, the fair deck suddenly has to find THREE(!) removal spells to bring the board back to neutral and that's just assuming the third card is dead or a land.

The formula to beat these decks is simple. It's no riddle. If you have more creatures+counters than they have removal+blockers, you win. Gaining a critical mass of cards is the only real way have of making that more efficient/dooable aside from hitting three lands and drawing nothing but gas all game but that's not going to happen. Playing a threat like huntmaster that eats a bolt, and then the token gets walled by a threat we struggle to remove, can help but nothing ends these games faster than accumulating more threats/answers. Besides, how many 4 mana spells can 17-18 land decks run before it's a hinderance?

I've been thinking about Chandra and it is a gamewinner but struggles to consistently remove goyf and falls short of the delve creatures. When you're ahead on board and drop it it's very hard to lose but we absolutely struggle to kill these exact threats and I fear too often you have to choose between activating it once and losing it to combat damage. I have no experience with it to speak of, though, so I could be wrong.





I got a few matches in with Shaper's Sanctuary, its almost impossible for mardu to beat on turn one except perhaps some Lilliana action but if you don't have it in the early game it can be too little too late as a topdeck late and in order to guarantee it early you need to run multiples which eats up way too much sideboard space. It's very powerful though.

@ObNate happy to! I love discussing this archetype

@mikefon
I didn't think of pitching dead cards with Chart. When it isn't CA it's two cards in the yard for Mandrills, that's nice. I didn't notice the synergy of aftermath and subtypes which is cool but if I'm going to play a two mana bounce spell I gotta go with Simic Charm here I think.

I do like huntmaster a lot, I feel like basilisk Collar is more efficient at gaining me life and taking care of problem creatures and that's probably what I would cut if I really wanted to run a huntmaster for tutor-ability.

Trinket Mage is something I only tried a few times and it was more cute than anything. I like having a tool box though.


Unrelated;

What does everyone think of shaper's sanctuay for removal heavy matchups? I brought it up when spoiled but I feel like the meta has shifted more towards path, bolt, push than ever. Hell, ten new Mardu decks are 4 pyro, 4 reveler, 4 lingering souls, lands, and a thousand removal spells. If played on turn one it's very realistic to expect to draw 5+ cards off it in a game, and if they arnt killing your creatures then they quickly get buried. How many cards would this have to draw in a game to be the best turn one play? 6? 8? 10? I really feel like the sky is the limit for this card in the right matchups. So often I'll have my opponent remove 7 or 8 creatures over the course of a game and those decks naturally put themselves into a topdecking position meaning you're hitting gas while they just try to stay alive. Helps mitigate damage from almost every playable PW except LoTv(4 mana chandra, little jace, 3 mana Gideon, nahiri, the other 3 mana Lilli, etc) by nullifying the advantage gained on their targeted abilities.

And I know this topic has been heavily discussed but it seems it's fallen out of favor, is no one trying to implement Bedlam Revelerin these lists anymore? I'm trying to gear my sideboard more towards this surge of 'fair decks' that has occurred as of late and having that tutor option can be backbreaking. Also considering swapping my feed the clan for Pulse of Murasa to give me another card to help me grind out those sort of decks. Obviously great to return a Reveler or Snap but having an extra goyf+land+life seems pretty good too.

Definitely similar!

Curator has more than carved out its role for me and earned its spot. I would never run two and I actually cut a bauble for it so I'm my mind that's the slot it occupies. In games where you only want A few threats out early and then ride the tempo game to victory with interaction (tron,affinity, ad nauseum, storm, etc) curator cycles away for a mere one mana making the opportunity cost to run the card very low. Its these matchups there we struggle to get a creature subtype in the yard as well which is synergystic for our delerium/goyf needs. It's purpose for which it is included is for matchups where we must increase our threat density to fight through removal, and it's been incredible. Anytime a midrange or control deck gets you in topdeck mode the 4 mana cost for the most part doesn't matter because you're out of cards anyways. The body is exactly what the deck wants, a bigger version of delver that comes pre-flipped. Decks often try to wall our attackers with bodies we can't remove easily like goyf or delve creatures in order to buy them time to draw into removal, curator gives you a traverse target that can start clocking them again right away. It's also immune to grave hate, bolt proof, hard to fatal push, decay proof, and most importantly triggers ferocious all the time. The only real instance if a-synergy is the delver flips but like I said I run it over bauble so that's the same either way.

I think it's quite viable to still be running 3 mandrills but to do you must run at least 3 thought scour, and it's my own personal philosophy that the fewer scours we need, the better the list runs, (I said more about that a few pages back I believe. Additionally, in instances where we draw multiple mandrills early traverse can quickly become a dud and traverse IMO is the main appeal to the deck. Mandrills is aggressive but when it neutered your own goyfs, traverse, and snapcaster too many of these grave taxing bodies can have diminishing returns. When you don't nuke your own graveyard traverse is finding you more ferocious enablers anyways. Also with three mandrills I don't believe one could justify gnarlwood dryad and with only two mandrills he has been amazing. Trample is great but doesn't help you with any creature with toughness > 4. Desthtouch is evasion it's own right, helping punch through damage on an otherwise clogged board similar to Delver or Curator. It has one less power and doesn't trigger ferocious but in a format of death shadow goyf angler and reality smasher being able to tutor for a deathtouch blocker has been clutch countless times. All that being said it gives you one more way to start the game with a threat on the field taxing removal immediately or giving you a more ways to play under Lilliana of the veil or the three mana Gideon. Similar to delver it's a 1/1 that often doesn't become a 3 power creature until turns 3/4 but has the upside potentially explosive starts with multiple one drops.

I've run many versions that have had at least one huntmaster in the side but I think he just doesn't do enough to justify his inclusion right now. Firespout is my favorite card in the sideboard and bringing him in alongside it always felt awkward. The midrange decks have no shortage of ways to remove him and leaving behind a 2/2 is 'value' but it's not gamebreaking for a 4 mana investment to eat a bolt and leave behind a 2/2. That's about the same as playing a kitchen finks. If left unchecked, certainly he is a game winner but in my mind is too fragile. Instead my traverse package is a little more diverse with an additional threat in curator and a pseudo removal spell in the dryad. Clique is actually the card I put in over huntmaster because tron/titanshift is a much harder matchup than any midrange/aggro decks and clique has seemed necessary to shore up those matchups, but is great against midrange as well as long as they don't have lingering souls.

I have not tried chandra but I think I should. My main issue is that if this slot was something you could tutor for with traverse, wouldn't that make the deck more efficient?

I like chart but feel like this deck has a ton of slot devoted to card selection as is. I truthfully havnt tried to intigrate it. How has it been?

Also if pithing needle has proven worth it inclusion then trinket Mage could make an excellent sideboard package for you to find with traverse through trinket Mage. It currently finds bauble, explosives, and needle but it would be easy to include a pierce for eldrazi/burn in Basilisk collar or a piece of grave hate with tormods crypt. Btw, bojuka bog has been awesome for me. A little slow and fairly average as a hate effect but always seems to be just enough to give me a window to win.

No problem; I believe I posted a similar list a few months ago but took a long break to play commander on MTGO instead. Just coming back to modern again but I've been been grinding friendly leagues and have yet to do worse than 3-2 in ~10 attempts or so.



I know at first glance the numbers can seem a bit weird but a lot of work has been put in here and these choices are all calculated. The remand and knuckleblade are the only real flex slots here IMO but as of now I wouldn't be change a thing. The mardu variants that have popped up seem like an uphill battle so I've been mulling things like Kira, great glass spinner a shot as a traverse target but I'm unsure if it's necessary as of yet. Feel free to ask questions.

@blood moon for burn; it's been discussed here before and I've tried it several times but with less than great results. I usually lose to burn because I didn't answer their early creatures, not because I can't stop burn spells. It can certainly steal games though, I can definitely see that.

It's no secret that removing creatures with toughness greater than three is this deck's Achilles' heel, a four damage instant speed one mana removal spell would amazing for the deck but I don't think we've found it. Despite all the natural drawbacks of damaging your own creature, the real issue here is that you can't use it on turn on at all, and it's very difficult to use on turns two/three without it being a 2 for 1 that leaves you without a threat in the early game. I think lightning axe is actually better here even though it's always a 2 for 1 that you probably don't want to flashback with snapcaster simply because you can use it turn one/two with no restrictions and 5 damage takes care of the majority of threats in the format.

With all that being said, flame slash and roast are the two options I would always pick first to fill that role. 5 damage from roast answers most eldrazi every delve creature and usually goyf, it's hard to beat that consistency.

Ive found eldrazi tron quite tolerable. If you put them on their backfoot early and don't get chalice'd they usually can't race you. I specifically run Basilisk Collar in my board for this matchup and it's an absolute bomb once resolved. Only an active Endbringer or several Reality Smashers in a row can help them race you. Additionally I run Traverse which means I can easily search up Magus of the Moon and get a bunch of free wins. Having gnarlwood Dryad as a one of tutor target has done a lot of work for me here as well. I also don't run shoal which seems bad here so that could be a major difference.

It's at least cool to see some interest and streams. It's kinda sad how incredibly few quality finishes this deck has been able to generate in the past year. I used to constantly check mtggoldfish to see other people's lists for inspiration but almost all the semi recent finishes are...mine I guess most people are choosing shadow and angler over Tarmogoyf and mandrills.

I think rites is playable, it's just slow because you can't use the mana until your opponents turn at the earliest. So three mana investment is a lot, most turns in the early game you're essentially doing just that and nothing else. Cradle is Cradle though, which can be amazing.

I'm very much interested in Riverwise Augur. 4 mana is steep but I feel like it compares favorably to the 4 mana exploit creature that mana people run. Brainstorm is one hell of an ETB effect and without the drawback of exploit. I would go as far as to say it could be better than slithermuse because you don't need to evoke it away and is great at any stage of the game whereas slithermuse can be dead for numerous reasons. I'm not running Vizier of the Menagerie and perhaps that's a more popular comparison as of right now anyways but I'll be giving the merfolk a shot.