I'm wondering if it'll end up being better than the artifact or worse. I'm guessing it's likely close though (definitely putting it in, hopefully can draft with it seeded in tonight.)
It'll probably be more 'consistent' in play, and by that I mean there will be more times where it does something/makes a maindeck vs crucible. Crucible being tougher to kill is definitely relevant, but I feel a lot better playing this in a deck with 2-3 fetches and no other interactions than I would Crucible.
Yeah, that's true. It's like, I'm unsure if I'd include a Crucible in a deck with 2 fetches since it's a stone blank if you don't draw the fetches.
With Magus, it attacks for 2!
(I may just be underplaying Crucible, but it seems like I want either something really good to combo with it, like Strip Mine/Wasteland, or a lot of targets for it and it feels like that "barrier" is a lot lower with this guy. Sweet. )
I think I like the upside of Smelt over Lava Spike and it's nice that being able to choose should be able to help cover weaknesses/let it have uses in matchups where it may not do much (few_creature_control_but_has_manarocks.dek or tons_of_dudes_but_maybe_an_equipment_or_two.dek.)
Definitely looking forward to trying it out tonight... hopefully!
I'm wondering if it'll end up being better than the artifact or worse. I'm guessing it's likely close though (definitely putting it in, hopefully can draft with it seeded in tonight.)
On Tuesday, I drafted this. I p1p1ed the new Bolas and... I'll be honest, I have no idea what happened with this deck. I think I may have been tilted as our group drafted at a new store and several people who said that they'd show up flaked out. But we had 5 people and the deck 3-0ed so... hey!
I'll echo the sentiments that this card is great. I ran the old Bolas PW when I had more tricolor stuff happening, but eventually cut it.
I think the +1 ability's definitely underrated now, since there aren't many contemporary cards with that kind of repeatable effect w/o requiring mana. Cao Cao, Lord of Wei and Sadistic Hypnotist, I guess?
It's true that it can't get rid of non-creature and non-planeswalker threats, but found that wasn't much of an issue. Usually when I cast it, I went "Let's spin the wheel!" and got at least... something solid. (things like hitting a Cast Out vs Esper control, or even creatures like Goblin Rabblemaster to defend it. Obviously, it's not 100% reliable, but you're still essentially Jayemdae Tomeing off the opponent from a +2.
The only time it got to ultimate range was when the opponent had a Knight of the Reliquary and a Sword of Fire and Ice, and I had enough stuff out that could deal with it, as Bolas had just enough loyalty to ultimate but killing itself in the process.)
-4 was fine also, and several times it represented impending doom if the opponent couldn't deal with him (and used it once to kill a Selfless Spirit, which oddly was the right thing to do. Overkill, sure, but hey.)
edit- whoops, forgot a Miscalculation. That's in there also.
I don't think your point was lost, I think Usman is saying that a better card existing doesn't diminish the need for a second version even if a second version is worse in a certain match up, and he's saying that he finds Beast Within performing well enough in the other match ups to deserve a spot in his cube. Clearly YMMV as Beast Within isn't a staple or close to it, but if you're looking for redundancy like Usman might be then Beast Within would be that second version albeit with a match up where it doesn't work as well.
yeeeeeeepppppppppppppp, exact-a-mundo
Also it seems a bit reductionist to say that the cards perform the same in other matchups (I'd much rather have BW in slower matchups due to being able to hold up counter magic and not ramping the opponent) and that BW being bad in fast matchups makes it worse overall.
I've been a fan of Nissa since day 1 as a way to stall the game and have some late-game inevitability by pumping your team. Like Rishkar, she's better in green-based that can go wide (I've yet to see her ultimate yet, but that could be because her -2 is really nice) and while it's a worse minus than Ajani Goldmane, she's cheaper and in a color that can (and does) get her out on turn 2.
It is kind of awkward that her tokens can't turn the corner on their own, but I've found that she's still fine as a generic green walker.
I don't have any plants, but I have a decent amount of Bellsprouts. I use Bulbasaurs and Oddish pokemon card tokens as my plant tokens in cube.
I haven't cubed Beast Within for years, but I really like Song of the Dryads. Sees heavy play in mono green and Simic decks. They were not close in power level in my experience. One of the qualities I seek in removal spells is to be able to pull even with them when I am behind, and BW lacks that. Feels like a dead card against fast decks and bad in them.
Even if that's the case (that it's bad against fast decks) - doesn't that apply to other high-cost cards like Ugin, Sundering Titan and Emrakul, the Promised End which get sideboarded out in games 2 (and 3) where they're bad in that matchup? There's an argument that those cards are more powerful than Beast Within, but isn't that kinda a given of cards in certain matchups?
It's been about 4 years since the last comment for this card. While I do think Song of the Dryads is superior, I'm assuming this card's stock has increased as the average power level of cubes have grown since. Have your opinions changed about this card in these last 4 years?
I... think I like Beast Within more, to be honest?
It's certainly not a card for every deck and a deck packing Beast Within has to be cognizant that a 3/3 on board can represent a real threat, and someone including Beast Within in their deck has to realize how that puzzle works itself out. For example, a deck that only has a few cards/creatures that can effectively deal with a 3/3 likely isn't going to want to play it, but decks that don't care about the 3/3, I've found, play it quite well. Those decks also can have a board state where a single permanent like a planeswalker, Moat, etc can change the dynamic of the game, and suddenly that's one of the few cards that really matters.
Because of that, I've found that it's not for every deck and it's one that can certainly backfire, but I haven't really found too many scenarios where it really blows up in someone's face. It's obviously not "an instant speed Vindicate" as people may have thought (in Standard when it was initially shown) but it's a nice one; if you end up including it, see with your drafters how often the drawback is a thing. Sometimes it is. But it probably isn't as much as you think (which I ended up finding out.)
I'm considering replacing Lightning Angel with Jeskai Ascendancy. Has anyone had success with Ascendancy? Which common cube cards does it go well with? Any must-includes needed to push it?
I'd say that this is an upgrade, at least on power level and payoffs for doing it. Because, really, I'm not going to splash white in my Izzet deck for Lightning Angel, as having an efficient threat isn't really enough for me to potentially mess up my mana base (or require extra picks to accommodate for it.) But Jeskai Ascendancy does. At least, it's the lone straggler of my tri-color section.
For the most part, I've seen it work best in either Izzet-splashing white decks for it, which don't really have a token theme per se, but as a way to just get value out of non-creatures. As you can tell, they generally tend to trend towards either having a lot of multitaskers (non-creatures that function as a creature, like Koth of the Hammer) or decks with a ton of non-creatures and see the creature generation as a neat bonus if it comes down to it. But I haven't really gone out of my way to push it, it's mainly just... there, ya know?
It's funny that I recently talked to a friend about Thraben Inspector and how I've been a fan of it, trying it out and saying that I think it's better than we think (as it turns out, Kenny knew all along), giving it a bunch of reps, and liking it in my cube, but, I'm... not entirely sure how I'd articulate *why* it's a good cube card, and despite being a fan of it for a while (I've not done much posting here in the past few years but I'm looking to remedy that) - I'll be damned if I can find a really good way of articulating *why* it's good.
Because when I've articulated it using traditional talking points, it looks abysmal (it's mostly seen play in white cube aggressive decks and has several 3-0 decks with it being represented in that archetype [although it's seen 3-0 representation in non aggro decks, albeit to a lesser degree,] and my cube *very* much supports aggressive decks, after all, I wrote an article about it.) Like, why does my white aggro deck want a 1/2? And 2 to draw a card? Shouldn't they be dead to a t4 geddon or Elspeth?
Well.
Sometimes.
It's true that it doesn't really do much in games where you're curving out and the opponent's just getting their head bashed in. But a lot of the times, like with life, things don't always go as planned and your threats get neutralized and while your deck may not want to end up there, you may inevitably find yourself wanting some card advantage. Thraben Inspector does that, while still being a somewhat serviceable body. Something I've talked about in recent reviews that I've done is the concept of pushing momentum forward, while performing an action (I think that's a concept in judo, but I honestly have no idea) and it works in that vein. It's also nice as part of a turn when casting a few 1-drops, or even just cashing it in immediately when searching for an answer. It's like a lot of other cards that performs well on a total package rather than a sweet front side, if that makes sense.
I'm probably explaining it poorly, hahaha. I attached a 3-0 deck that utilized it from a LGS Cube draft - it's a bit wonky and if I had my druthers, I'd have not run Baneslayer and Elspeth, Sun's Champion in the deck and would rather have had a few more 3s (but that's the way things go.) The deck's mostly a meat-and-potatoes white aggro deck (more top-heavy than I'd like, FWIW) with no artifact shenanigans or anything. I haven't found it being an artifact/permanent being super relevant for Tangle Wire and other cards that use permanents as a resource, but hey, nice bonus if you do.
Also, Frontier fixed a lot of rotation woes. Cards that are playable in Frontier will hold their value much better after their Standard rotation than they ever have previously. Liliana probably fits that description.
Yep, good luck @ me ever getting one on the cheap anytime soon. D:
RE: Liliana, the Last Hope, she's definitely the #2 planeswalker in black, but for the most part, black planeswalkers aside from Liliana of the Veil are a pretty big dip in power level. Ones like both Ob Nixilises and Liliana Vess being... pretty much tier2; in the range where I've given them their time in the sun, but they're certainly in the lower-tiers of power level of (cubable?) planeswalkers, but Liliana, the Last Hope is pretty great. Probably tier 1.5, as she generally tends to act as a Jace, Telepath Unbound and act as a generally nice card in black decks to deal with small stuff and get lots of value. I'm no the best source of really quantifying if it's worth the price of investment, but I'd say if one does get her, she'll likely earn her keep for at least a few years in a cube.
Maze of Ith is a really unique card that we likely won't see again for a while - a land that doesn't tap for mana and just stops a creature outright. It's going to be a strange day when I end up cutting it from my cube (and let's be honest, it likely isn't going to happen.) Unlike a lot of older cards, I don't think its stock in terms of card power has really increased or dropped, but I'm tempted to say slightly increased due to better creature power levels and them helping to defend planeswalkers for free in slower matchups, or in matchups where the opponent just has one giant idiot swinging in (although it's pretty mediocre vs the Titan cycle, and Frost Titan just laughs at it.)
I'd say that Shelldock Isle is my favorite non-mana fixing land to have. Not just a high ceiling but generally don't have a hard time getting it active (and sideboard it out in matchups where it is.) It usually just casts some random thing EOT once the game's drawn out and even if it's just a Ponder, it's still nice.)
Yeah, that's true. It's like, I'm unsure if I'd include a Crucible in a deck with 2 fetches since it's a stone blank if you don't draw the fetches.
With Magus, it attacks for 2!
(I may just be underplaying Crucible, but it seems like I want either something really good to combo with it, like Strip Mine/Wasteland, or a lot of targets for it and it feels like that "barrier" is a lot lower with this guy. Sweet.
Definitely looking forward to trying it out tonight... hopefully!
I'll echo the sentiments that this card is great. I ran the old Bolas PW when I had more tricolor stuff happening, but eventually cut it.
I think the +1 ability's definitely underrated now, since there aren't many contemporary cards with that kind of repeatable effect w/o requiring mana. Cao Cao, Lord of Wei and Sadistic Hypnotist, I guess?
It's true that it can't get rid of non-creature and non-planeswalker threats, but found that wasn't much of an issue. Usually when I cast it, I went "Let's spin the wheel!" and got at least... something solid. (things like hitting a Cast Out vs Esper control, or even creatures like Goblin Rabblemaster to defend it. Obviously, it's not 100% reliable, but you're still essentially Jayemdae Tomeing off the opponent from a +2.
The only time it got to ultimate range was when the opponent had a Knight of the Reliquary and a Sword of Fire and Ice, and I had enough stuff out that could deal with it, as Bolas had just enough loyalty to ultimate but killing itself in the process.)
-4 was fine also, and several times it represented impending doom if the opponent couldn't deal with him (and used it once to kill a Selfless Spirit, which oddly was the right thing to do. Overkill, sure, but hey.)
edit- whoops, forgot a Miscalculation. That's in there also.
yeeeeeeepppppppppppppp, exact-a-mundo
Also it seems a bit reductionist to say that the cards perform the same in other matchups (I'd much rather have BW in slower matchups due to being able to hold up counter magic and not ramping the opponent) and that BW being bad in fast matchups makes it worse overall.
It is kind of awkward that her tokens can't turn the corner on their own, but I've found that she's still fine as a generic green walker.
I don't have any plants, but I have a decent amount of Bellsprouts. I use Bulbasaurs and Oddish pokemon card tokens as my plant tokens in cube.
Even if that's the case (that it's bad against fast decks) - doesn't that apply to other high-cost cards like Ugin, Sundering Titan and Emrakul, the Promised End which get sideboarded out in games 2 (and 3) where they're bad in that matchup? There's an argument that those cards are more powerful than Beast Within, but isn't that kinda a given of cards in certain matchups?
I... think I like Beast Within more, to be honest?
It's certainly not a card for every deck and a deck packing Beast Within has to be cognizant that a 3/3 on board can represent a real threat, and someone including Beast Within in their deck has to realize how that puzzle works itself out. For example, a deck that only has a few cards/creatures that can effectively deal with a 3/3 likely isn't going to want to play it, but decks that don't care about the 3/3, I've found, play it quite well. Those decks also can have a board state where a single permanent like a planeswalker, Moat, etc can change the dynamic of the game, and suddenly that's one of the few cards that really matters.
Because of that, I've found that it's not for every deck and it's one that can certainly backfire, but I haven't really found too many scenarios where it really blows up in someone's face. It's obviously not "an instant speed Vindicate" as people may have thought (in Standard when it was initially shown) but it's a nice one; if you end up including it, see with your drafters how often the drawback is a thing. Sometimes it is. But it probably isn't as much as you think (which I ended up finding out.)
I'd say that this is an upgrade, at least on power level and payoffs for doing it. Because, really, I'm not going to splash white in my Izzet deck for Lightning Angel, as having an efficient threat isn't really enough for me to potentially mess up my mana base (or require extra picks to accommodate for it.) But Jeskai Ascendancy does. At least, it's the lone straggler of my tri-color section.
For the most part, I've seen it work best in either Izzet-splashing white decks for it, which don't really have a token theme per se, but as a way to just get value out of non-creatures. As you can tell, they generally tend to trend towards either having a lot of multitaskers (non-creatures that function as a creature, like Koth of the Hammer) or decks with a ton of non-creatures and see the creature generation as a neat bonus if it comes down to it. But I haven't really gone out of my way to push it, it's mainly just... there, ya know?
Because when I've articulated it using traditional talking points, it looks abysmal (it's mostly seen play in white cube aggressive decks and has several 3-0 decks with it being represented in that archetype [although it's seen 3-0 representation in non aggro decks, albeit to a lesser degree,] and my cube *very* much supports aggressive decks, after all, I wrote an article about it.) Like, why does my white aggro deck want a 1/2? And 2 to draw a card? Shouldn't they be dead to a t4 geddon or Elspeth?
Well.
Sometimes.
It's true that it doesn't really do much in games where you're curving out and the opponent's just getting their head bashed in. But a lot of the times, like with life, things don't always go as planned and your threats get neutralized and while your deck may not want to end up there, you may inevitably find yourself wanting some card advantage. Thraben Inspector does that, while still being a somewhat serviceable body. Something I've talked about in recent reviews that I've done is the concept of pushing momentum forward, while performing an action (I think that's a concept in judo, but I honestly have no idea) and it works in that vein. It's also nice as part of a turn when casting a few 1-drops, or even just cashing it in immediately when searching for an answer. It's like a lot of other cards that performs well on a total package rather than a sweet front side, if that makes sense.
I'm probably explaining it poorly, hahaha. I attached a 3-0 deck that utilized it from a LGS Cube draft - it's a bit wonky and if I had my druthers, I'd have not run Baneslayer and Elspeth, Sun's Champion in the deck and would rather have had a few more 3s (but that's the way things go.) The deck's mostly a meat-and-potatoes white aggro deck (more top-heavy than I'd like, FWIW) with no artifact shenanigans or anything. I haven't found it being an artifact/permanent being super relevant for Tangle Wire and other cards that use permanents as a resource, but hey, nice bonus if you do.
Yep, good luck @ me ever getting one on the cheap anytime soon. D:
RE: Liliana, the Last Hope, she's definitely the #2 planeswalker in black, but for the most part, black planeswalkers aside from Liliana of the Veil are a pretty big dip in power level. Ones like both Ob Nixilises and Liliana Vess being... pretty much tier2; in the range where I've given them their time in the sun, but they're certainly in the lower-tiers of power level of (cubable?) planeswalkers, but Liliana, the Last Hope is pretty great. Probably tier 1.5, as she generally tends to act as a Jace, Telepath Unbound and act as a generally nice card in black decks to deal with small stuff and get lots of value. I'm no the best source of really quantifying if it's worth the price of investment, but I'd say if one does get her, she'll likely earn her keep for at least a few years in a cube.
I'd say that Shelldock Isle is my favorite non-mana fixing land to have. Not just a high ceiling but generally don't have a hard time getting it active (and sideboard it out in matchups where it is.) It usually just casts some random thing EOT once the game's drawn out and even if it's just a Ponder, it's still nice.)
I'd say so, yeah.