I feel like Parallel Lives is good as a way to recover from a sweeper. With it out, your shrine pops for double Myr, Elspeth pumps out 6, etc. I'm assuming we all can math fairly well here. The enchantment doesn't get destroyed by most Wrath effects and makes any spell you cast afterwords much more potent. Like I said, I've been hit by multiple Wrath effects in a row and being able to play one spell and regain my board thanks to Parallel Lives was enough to get me back into the game and pull out wins.
Granted, it doesn't do anything the turn it hits play but with careful playing you can get value from it almost immediately. The most common example I can think of is playing Hero of Bladehold on turn 3 or 4 and then following it up with Parallel Lives. Allowing you to swing for 11 instead of 7 as early as turn 4 on just the Hero. Not to mention if you dropped a turn 2 Mentor or Blade Splicer. There is a ton of value in Parallel Lives in this deck.
The reason why i dont run mentor of the meek is cause he is very mana entensive and turns the deck completely 180 into another direction. And if you were going to run him in the deck, you would need at least the package of 4 birds, 4 avacryn, and 2 llanowar. It just turns it into another deck i think.
Just because you are running him doesn't mean you have to spend the extra mana each time you cast a creature. It just helps break the card inequality between you and other decks. This deck gets the majority of its card advantage from using one card to produce multiple creatures but (at least in my experience) over the course of a game I would hit top deck mode regularly. Which isn't a place I want to be in. Mentor just helps mitigate that situation. He is just very synergistic with the rest of the deck.
For example, say you have an empty hand, an Elspeth on the field, ~6 lands and your opponent just DoJ'd. You draw Mentor for your turn. Playing the Mentor and then -2'ing with Elspeth nets you a total of 4 bodies and two or three cards in hand. It just helps you stay in the game and out-card-advantage your opponents (more or less). Mentor is not the end-all-be-all card in this deck but it definitely a versatile tool with a lot of synergy.
@ trouble4U - I feel like sitting on Fresh Meat is a little difficult because it costs 4. I do like the idea of more removal SB for titans and Elesh Norn. I'd probably run extra Beast Within just for the instant speed. How has Revoker been working for you? I have felt a little helpless when playing against Birthing Pod and I was going to go with Stony Silence as an answer to it (as well as swords and shrines in other match ups) since that makes them play fairly. Revoker seems like it has it's uses against a wider range of threats but I like that Stony Silence doesn't get hit by creature removal.
I could see dropping 1 Garruk relentless maybe, but having one in hand is nice for when yours gets popped by evasion, a wolf run trampler, or after using your elspeth final, it gives you the power to keep him on the board and having him keeps all weenies and dorks in check, as well as providing extra tokens for elspeth to wrath around. Primal hunter gives you the card draw you need to keep a full hand, and drawing one of the extra relentless to follow a Primal hunter who may have just killed himself the turn he was played, is very handy.
In regards to the nevermore, using it with gitaxian probe is the best way to utilize it, however in a meta where we almost always know by game 2 what deck is being played and what the key cards are to prevent, it can be dropped turn 2 before a mana leak can do any damage, or a liliana, or anything beyong 1cc. Nihil spellbomb does wonders againt solar flare, especially if you have a bird in play to tap for the swamp to draw a card. for a ratchet bomb counter, i prefer fresh meat anyway.
I don't know, I don't like running more than three of any legendary card. Dead draws are just bad magic in my opinion.
What are the key cards that you would be calling with Nevermore that you couldn't be taking care of with other cards like O-Ring, Beast Within, or just attacking? I agree Nihil Spellbomb has its uses in certain match ups but I don't know where it would fit in my sideboard to be honest. I would like to help that match up but I haven't played against the actual list. I feel like it wouldn't be a terrible match up for us but I could be wrong. It is mainly the titans that I've had some trouble with but upping the number of removal MB has greatly helped. Would offing the whole 'yard be better than using Surgical Extraction to remove specific cards?
I can only see two slots free to play with. Would that be enough? My current SB is:
Dismember and Shrine can most likely be cut but I like the other cards a lot. Any help would be awesome. Mainly my question is how effective is graveyard hate on Solar Flare?
I think we need to utilize the new walkers givin to these 2 colors in the last few months. Both versions of garruk offer something this deck can benefit from everytime they are dropped, be it tokens for aggro or protection, or card draw, or killing a chump blocker. Garruk does an amazing job protecting our Elspeth's, who is undoubtedly the all-star of the deck (alongside hero of course). by running 4 Garruk, relentless, you have the option to turn any token into a threatening Elesh Norn, Sun titan, Geist-Honored monk, or essence of the wild, and keep the number of copies of the afformentioned, down to 1-2 and make room for your control cards.
Having a planeswalker on the board, tends to draw the focus away from our tokens and creatures, and better yet, our hands. Packing this g/w token deck with removal to help our walkers, is generally enough to shut any non control builds down. I dont think the discussion should be "whats better, BW or O-ring???" and should be more "how many of each do i run??" Speaking of control, the sideboard has more than enough answers with Nevermore and Nihil Spellbomb as a 4 of, and singletons like thrun that can be searched up with garruk, the veil cursed. Nevermore to me is better than Stony Silence. The builds with shrines and vats dont wanna cripple themselves just to stop a ratchet bomb wipe.
I dunno, in summary, I think this deck will be better as a control/distraction build, than it ever will be with aggro.
traveler is clunky and a waste of turn one. Shrines seem outshined by control, considdering turn 2 with a ramp dork, i could beast within their turn 1 or 2 drop land and possibly pull far enough ahead to win right there or o-ringing a potential early threat. same with intangible virtue. with enough control, that card will be obsolete as your tokens will be doing a good enough job while you control everything else.
On a side note, thopter assembly and phyrexian rebirth may have a place here. just a thought though.
I see what you are getting at and agree with parts but disagree with others. I agree that both of the Garruks are awesome in the deck but I would never run 4 Garruk Relentless. He has a lot of synergy with the deck but you run into the issue of him being a dead draw with one already on the field. Secondly, you can't guarantee that he will flip over in order to search for those power creatures. That just makes your 1-of bombs harder to find and is not nearly as reliable as Green Sun's Zenith in standard or Fauna Shaman was in pre-rotation standard. I would consider that more of a great utility when it's there but I would not count on having it available all the time.
I agree that this is not an aggro deck but it most certainly isn't a control deck. It is a mid-range swarm deck. The removal cards are there to help protect your board position and get in lethal damage. I can see a GW control deck but it is not going to be a tokens deck with all of the control cards needed to play that sort of game. I believe there is a thread titled GW Natural Justice that plays that style of deck. I recommend checking it out since it is an interesting and powerful deck if that is what you are looking to run.
I don't think that Nevermore or Nihil Spellbomb are good enough to take up 8 slots of your sideboard. I don't ever see myself running Nevermore, especially without cards like Gitaxian Probe or Despise to see what the opponent has in hand. If you play well, board wipes like Ratchet Bomb have almost no effect on the deck. I've been hit by two Slagstorms back to back and still been able to recover and pull out a win. Nihil Spellbomb is a possibility but I don't know if that does enough against Solar Flare to really matter.
Thopter Assembly and Phyrexian Rebirth are going to be too slow and loose to really be constructed playable in my opinion. If I can do what those cards do at 6cmc with cards that range from 3-4cmc, I would rather play the cheaper cards.
@GoTexans
I'm going to be playing with a one of Geist-Honored Monk this FNM. I'm curious as to why you didn't like it. It seems pretty nuts in this deck, especially as a way to deal with titans or just as a fatty beater. Basically every other card in the deck gives it at least an additional +2/+2 if not more. Plus, if it eats removal, you still get two 1/1 Flying Spirits out of the deal.
So can we get a consensus on what the core cards for the deck are? Then we can start work on a premier that everyone has collaborated on. Here is what I'm thinking is a good starting point. This is totally open to discussion and changing. Tell me what you think and I'll update accordingly.
Disclaimer: No particular order to these, I was just listing what came to mind.
I'm thinking we just stick to the mainboard for now. Then we will work on narrowing down choices to optimize the deck. Let's get critical cards listed first, then we can work on setting numbers and all that jazz. Once the core is established, then we can work on how to fill out the skeleton.
Any consensus on the Beast Within v. Oblivion Ring debate? O-Ring is ol' reliable in my eyes in that it does what you need it to do. However, I'm feeling that with utility lands being all the rage and the difficulties the deck has with a line of play like Gideon -> DoJ -> dome your walker for six, the instant speed and stone rain applications would give Beast Within the edge. What I haven't figured out yet is how much this deck cares about an opposing 3/3.
Also, Doomed Traveller sucks. People need to stop playing that card.
I had O-Ring sideboard because of the interaction with Elspeth's ultimate. I found myself with a threat I didn't want to deal with under an O-Ring but not able to take out other problems with Elspeth. Although, over all I felt removal light so I swapped out MB Timelys for MB O-Rings. Bringing me to 10 removal spells in the form of O-Ring, Beast Within, Dismember, Elspeth and Garruk Relentless.
I've never had an issue with the 3/3 Beast token from Beast Within. Either chumping it with a 1/1 to buy some time, blocking it with a first striking golem or throwing Spellskite in front of it all work.
After playing with and against Liliana, it is not nearly as back breaking as people make it out to be. It is an amazing card to be sure and making control discard repeatedly is awesome. However, I have personally been hit by her ultimate, was able to bounce back and still had a good shot at winning the game. My deck was just ill equipped to take on a Wurmcoil. Point is, she is good but you can play smart and not let her get out of control. And even if she does, it isn't the end of the world.
Ok, crazy 2am brew here. Very rough and most likely a flop, but I figure I will share it just to spark some ideas. Basically it is an All In RB deck. Here is the list I'm thinking of as a starting point:
The idea is that you are trying to drop something turn 2 that the opponent can't deal with. Be that Inferno Titan, Hellkite Igniter, a giant Chimeric Mass, or any combination. The idea is to prep on turn 1 with cheap artifacts, then go to town on turn 2. I have no idea on proper numbers to make sure that you'll have something to dump the mana into but I figure 6 fatties and 4 mana sinks will do pretty well.
The original idea was to include Mentor of the Meek to chain your cheap creatures into more and more mana but this list drops the third color and seems more streamlined. I may try meddling with a BRW list but this seems pretty interesting for the time being.
I just wish there was an autowin card that I could run so I don't just roll over to Go for the Throat or Unsummon. The only other options that I can see are Wurmcoil Engine, Karn Liberated, Myr Battlesphere, or Blightsteel Colossus. Seven mana is fairly difficult without Geosurge, so that makes Karn shaky. I have no idea how hard it would be to hit 10 mana on turn 2 with the current BR list but I'm going to go with unlikely, so that makes Blightsteel a no. Wurmcoil and Battlesphere aren't terrible but I think a titan or a hasty dragon will get there better.
I'd appreciate feedback. I don't have any experience with AIR decks, so another person's perspective would be fantastic. Thanks!
@itsgian - Thank you. I've been liking the deck a lot. Thrun has been awesome in the games where I want him. There have been a couple instances where a resolved Thrun is something that the opponent couldn't come back from in testing. Especially with Township out, he just becomes a big ball of inevitability.
I'm thinking that I may run Stony Silence over Grand Abolisher in the sideboard after reading/watching some other things online. It is softer on the mana base and rolls all over equipment and Shrines. Abolisher is more pointed and screwing with control but I feel like (at least in my list) that control isn't a terrible match up and Thrun should be more than enough to sure up that match. I think Stony Silence has some uses but I'll need to test it out to be sure.
Mentor is insane! I haven't been able to play with him but I was playing against him in a B/W AggroControl deck and just watching my opponent build up his board but never drop below 4 cards... It was tough. He just plays the attrition game so well. It's been said several times that if you tack on "draw a card" to any card it is instantly better and this does that but on pretty much every single creature you play, ...and Planeswalker abilities, and shrine popping, and attacking with your creatures. It's just non-stop awesome on a stick.
Ok, I'm exaggerating a bit. He is quite good and is almost always active in the deck. The main problem is that he is a three drop and competes for a highly desired slot in the deck. That's the only reason I will probably only run three of this guy. I need to test with three but until I'm able to play it and get the feeling of "This is awesome to have, I need more!" when I draw it, it will probably stick as a three-of.
@DXI-Edge - Triple Green is just fine in the deck. I think I would add in one more Forest into your list to make sure that you hit it more consistently. Running a one-of Garruk, Primal Hunter has been great for me. I highly recommend it in the deck. Card draw is extremely important to this deck and he does that, as well as make tokens, and can end games on his own. He pretty much does it all.
As far as Mayor goes, I don't think there is really a place for him in your list. I could see it in a deck with Kessig Cagebreakers but then you are slowing down your deck in several ways. First being that you have to skip a turn to get Mayor to flip. Granted the opponent could miss a drop and you get there but it just doesn't seem all that reasonable to rely on the opponent for your cards to work. Second being that you only make one token a turn assuming your Mayor makes it to the end of your turn after flipping.
With all of the other token generation spells in standard right now, there just seems like too little value with an unneeded amount of variability associated with Mayor. I'm not trying to say don't try it though. It could be something that is awesome but sounds odd on paper. I'd be interested to hear your results but, personally, I'm not seeing it.
Round 1: U/W Aggro-ish
Basically just a janky aggro deck minus any real aggro creatures and random mana leaks. I'm not sure what was going on but my deck snowballed out of his control each game.
Record: 1-0
Round 2: Black Zombies
My deck got out of control really quick in the first match and he just never came back. Game two I was stuck on two mana til turn 5. A Shrine and three Blade splicers bought me enough time to eventually go ultimate off of Elspeth. After that I came back strong and won.
Record: 2-0
Round 3: Grixis Flashback Control
This was a really interesting deck but I just had more creatures and good spells for him to counter and/or burn everything. Each game I overwhelmed him. Snapcaster makes for some really bizarre considerations while playing.
Record: 3-0
Round 4: B/W Control
Match one he nut draws into turn 3 Liliana, discards Wurmcoil; turn 4 discards Unburial Rites and casts Wurmcoil. I didn't recover from that. Match two I held him off fairly well but I got flooded and couldn't really recover from a thrice returned Wurmcoil.
Record: 3-1
Round 5: Tempered Steel
We agree to split to ensure we both make top 8. We played for fun anyways. I got mana flooded game 1 and mana screwed game 2. I'm guessing poor shuffling but I think my luck was just running out for the evening.
Record: 3-1-1
Top 8:
Round 1: B/W Control (again)
Match one went pretty long as we kept answering each other's threats. I eventually popped a shrine and swarmed him. Match two he kept a two land hand and it was too late by the time he saw the third.
Record 4-1-1
Round 2: Tempered Steel (again)
Game one we both have slow hands, my deck petered out but I had the win on board and he top decked Tempered Steel for the win. Game two I had a strong hand and a Shrine with a Parallel Lives out sealed the deal. Game three he had a nut draw and I had to mulligan to a mediocre 6 card hand. Not much I could do. He went on to place first against a B/G Tokens deck my friend was playing.
Record: 4-2-1
Round 3: Grixis Control (again)
I split with him but I most likely would have won. His deck just seems to have nothing to deal with the flood of pseudo-card advantage that my creatures provide.
Final Record: 4-2-2
Thoughts:
I really loved playing this deck. It is such a beating if it isn't held under control quickly. There were several things I want to change about the list though.
-Mainboard Timely Reinforcements were nice but I think having 2x O-Ring would work better. I've been playing Pod decks in testing since then and Elesh Norn roflstomps our deck and only having two actual answers (4 if you count Elspeth) which isn't enough for me.
-Mentor of the Meek should be in the deck for certain. I was constantly winding up in top-deck mode and that's not a place I like to be. He helps attrition out other aggro/mid-range decks and isn't the most appealing target for removal when my other creatures are almost strictly better. Plus, I had a lot of mana sitting and him plus the Planeswalkers are just insane.
- I saw both Mimic Vat and White Sun's Zenith through out FNM and testing but while being cute, were largely underwhelming. The same goes for Jade Mage. She was great for curving purposes but more often than not she was just a vanilla 2/1 that didn't do anything.
- I love Parallel Lives in this deck. It just pushed all of your other cards over the top. I need to test out Intangible Virtue but I really think that higher quantities of creatures served me more in my matches than having more buffed creatures would have. I'll share my findings but I'm pretty sure I'll fall on the side of Parallel Lives.
I would like to try out Grand Abolisher mainboard but I think the double white is going to be too problematic. Relegating it to the Sideboard seems alright. Just to help screw with the Draw-Go style decks that will most likely be showing up at future FNMs.
Anyways, sorry I got a little long winded there. Just trying to be thorough with my thoughts so I can be more helpful with the discussion. If there is anything you guys have questions on, let me know and I'll be glad to discuss further and/or clarify.
I was running R/B Control before rotation. I tried out Obliterators but they just never applied the pressure that I was looking for in the match. I wish we still had Sarkhan the Mad. Him plus Moltensteel Dragon were awesome. I'd still run Moltensteel in a post rotation deck. He is just too awesome.
I brewed up a Heartless Summoning B/R deck for post rotation but I was underwhelmed with it. So, I'll be trying to come up with something closer to what I was playing pre-rotation. I really like Bloodgift Demon though. Flying is so huge and the card draw is awesome (and the occasional 1pt burn for the win hilarity sounds awesome).
I'll be working on that this weekend. I'll post my pilot deck list when I get it all pulled together.
Just as a side note, I don't want to play Liliana because I feel like she doesn't get a lot of value from the deck. Definitely a powerful card and I won't discount it from the build if her inclusion helps the deck power up but I just don't see it as of right now.
Oh, defiantly- I would never mind if they left my creatures alive- you will win with any of them in 3 turns or less (besides the blade splicer). The point is they are now in the position of letting your Hero of Bladehold, Geist-Honored Monk, Grave Titan, Myr Battleshere or Precursor Golem smash them in the face each turn (not good), or face an overwhelming tide of nastyness from the vat. If they don't have O-ring or other exile effects (and who plays bounce anymore), they are boned either way.
Yeah, I understand that. Both of the cards are strong, I'm not trying to say they aren't. In fact, I'm going to be running G/W Tokens with 3x Parallel Lives and 1x Mimic Vat in it. I just don't think of them as a central strategy but if they show up, then they are fantastic.
They just require a specific style of play in order to be degenerate. I was just getting at that if you want to make full use of Mimic Vat, a removal centered deck would be your best bet. Before rotation I ran a B/R Mimic Vat deck but without Sarkhan the Mad to make killing off my creatures beneficial. With out something along those lines you run into the problem that the deck will need to play off of the opponent too much to be as competitive as it needs to be.
That being said, I like the singleton Mimic Vat in my current deck because if it is out, it tilts any attack in my favor. It is a head game style card and I love that. I just haven't been able to make it work as a central theme inside of a deck despite about a year of trying. So, by all means, try it out and if it works, more power to you. I'm just speaking from my experiences with the card.
2 words: birthing pod. I could see parallel pod being fun, if not competitive.
How does Birthing Pod fit into this? Using one turn to play vat, then next turn play pod, then next turn play a ~4cmc creature and then sac it? It sounds cute and I like the interaction but it seems a bit too loose to me. I was thinking in terms of B/R with Mimic Vat more so than G/x Mimic Vat.
I'd beg to differ that Mimic Vat doesn't change the board position when it hits play. It requires your opponent to play more conservatively in order to not have one of their creatures hit the vat as well as try and keep you from getting one of your creatures under the vat as well. It warps games and puts you in a position of control. I have mad love for the card though, so I'm a bit biased. That being said, I've never seen anyone happy that Mimic Vat hit the board on my side of the field.
Parallel Lives shenanigans are fun to think about and all but I don't think you'll be making the best use of Mimic Vat by playing green. You want to be using your opponent's deck against them, not killing your own creatures (unless you are profiting or semi-profiting off of their death, eg. Altar's Reap or Wurmcoil Engine).
Card advantage in R/B:
Tezzeret's Gambit, Bloodgift Demon, Altar's Reap (in response to removal), Slagstorm, Massacre Wurm, Mimic Vat, Liliana of the Veil, Olivia Voldaren, Skinrender (more tempo than CA I guess but still good), and Sheoldred.
Finishers in R/B:
Inferno Titan, Grave Titan, Wurmcoil Engine, Moltensteel Dragon, and some overlap from the CA list as well.
R/B control lost Sign in Blood, Vampire Nighthawk, Lightning Bolt, Sarkhan the Mad and Abyssal Persecutor in rotation. Which is a significant hit but it got several other tools to make it work. I never had an issue with aggro pre-rotation unless they got the nut draw or I hit a land clump. It's not a tier 1 deck but it definitely isn't a bad deck.
Granted, it doesn't do anything the turn it hits play but with careful playing you can get value from it almost immediately. The most common example I can think of is playing Hero of Bladehold on turn 3 or 4 and then following it up with Parallel Lives. Allowing you to swing for 11 instead of 7 as early as turn 4 on just the Hero. Not to mention if you dropped a turn 2 Mentor or Blade Splicer. There is a ton of value in Parallel Lives in this deck.
Just because you are running him doesn't mean you have to spend the extra mana each time you cast a creature. It just helps break the card inequality between you and other decks. This deck gets the majority of its card advantage from using one card to produce multiple creatures but (at least in my experience) over the course of a game I would hit top deck mode regularly. Which isn't a place I want to be in. Mentor just helps mitigate that situation. He is just very synergistic with the rest of the deck.
For example, say you have an empty hand, an Elspeth on the field, ~6 lands and your opponent just DoJ'd. You draw Mentor for your turn. Playing the Mentor and then -2'ing with Elspeth nets you a total of 4 bodies and two or three cards in hand. It just helps you stay in the game and out-card-advantage your opponents (more or less). Mentor is not the end-all-be-all card in this deck but it definitely a versatile tool with a lot of synergy.
@ trouble4U - I feel like sitting on Fresh Meat is a little difficult because it costs 4. I do like the idea of more removal SB for titans and Elesh Norn. I'd probably run extra Beast Within just for the instant speed. How has Revoker been working for you? I have felt a little helpless when playing against Birthing Pod and I was going to go with Stony Silence as an answer to it (as well as swords and shrines in other match ups) since that makes them play fairly. Revoker seems like it has it's uses against a wider range of threats but I like that Stony Silence doesn't get hit by creature removal.
I don't know, I don't like running more than three of any legendary card. Dead draws are just bad magic in my opinion.
What are the key cards that you would be calling with Nevermore that you couldn't be taking care of with other cards like O-Ring, Beast Within, or just attacking? I agree Nihil Spellbomb has its uses in certain match ups but I don't know where it would fit in my sideboard to be honest. I would like to help that match up but I haven't played against the actual list. I feel like it wouldn't be a terrible match up for us but I could be wrong. It is mainly the titans that I've had some trouble with but upping the number of removal MB has greatly helped. Would offing the whole 'yard be better than using Surgical Extraction to remove specific cards?
I can only see two slots free to play with. Would that be enough? My current SB is:
1 Dismember
1 Shrine of Loyal Legions
3 Naturalize
3 Stony Silence
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Day of Judgement
3 Thrun, the Last Troll
Dismember and Shrine can most likely be cut but I like the other cards a lot. Any help would be awesome. Mainly my question is how effective is graveyard hate on Solar Flare?
I see what you are getting at and agree with parts but disagree with others. I agree that both of the Garruks are awesome in the deck but I would never run 4 Garruk Relentless. He has a lot of synergy with the deck but you run into the issue of him being a dead draw with one already on the field. Secondly, you can't guarantee that he will flip over in order to search for those power creatures. That just makes your 1-of bombs harder to find and is not nearly as reliable as Green Sun's Zenith in standard or Fauna Shaman was in pre-rotation standard. I would consider that more of a great utility when it's there but I would not count on having it available all the time.
I agree that this is not an aggro deck but it most certainly isn't a control deck. It is a mid-range swarm deck. The removal cards are there to help protect your board position and get in lethal damage. I can see a GW control deck but it is not going to be a tokens deck with all of the control cards needed to play that sort of game. I believe there is a thread titled GW Natural Justice that plays that style of deck. I recommend checking it out since it is an interesting and powerful deck if that is what you are looking to run.
I don't think that Nevermore or Nihil Spellbomb are good enough to take up 8 slots of your sideboard. I don't ever see myself running Nevermore, especially without cards like Gitaxian Probe or Despise to see what the opponent has in hand. If you play well, board wipes like Ratchet Bomb have almost no effect on the deck. I've been hit by two Slagstorms back to back and still been able to recover and pull out a win. Nihil Spellbomb is a possibility but I don't know if that does enough against Solar Flare to really matter.
Thopter Assembly and Phyrexian Rebirth are going to be too slow and loose to really be constructed playable in my opinion. If I can do what those cards do at 6cmc with cards that range from 3-4cmc, I would rather play the cheaper cards.
@GoTexans
I'm going to be playing with a one of Geist-Honored Monk this FNM. I'm curious as to why you didn't like it. It seems pretty nuts in this deck, especially as a way to deal with titans or just as a fatty beater. Basically every other card in the deck gives it at least an additional +2/+2 if not more. Plus, if it eats removal, you still get two 1/1 Flying Spirits out of the deal.
Mandatory:
Important functionally but not mandatory:
Generally useful cards in our color:
Disclaimer: No particular order to these, I was just listing what came to mind.
I'm thinking we just stick to the mainboard for now. Then we will work on narrowing down choices to optimize the deck. Let's get critical cards listed first, then we can work on setting numbers and all that jazz. Once the core is established, then we can work on how to fill out the skeleton.
I had O-Ring sideboard because of the interaction with Elspeth's ultimate. I found myself with a threat I didn't want to deal with under an O-Ring but not able to take out other problems with Elspeth. Although, over all I felt removal light so I swapped out MB Timelys for MB O-Rings. Bringing me to 10 removal spells in the form of O-Ring, Beast Within, Dismember, Elspeth and Garruk Relentless.
I've never had an issue with the 3/3 Beast token from Beast Within. Either chumping it with a 1/1 to buy some time, blocking it with a first striking golem or throwing Spellskite in front of it all work.
4 Heartless Summoning
4 Infernal Plunge
4 Priest of Urabrask
4 Geosurge
The Artifacts: 16
4 Memnite
4 Signal Pest
4 Chimeric Mass
4 Mox Opal
4 Inferno Titan
2 Hellkite Igniter
Random Burn: 2
2 Brimstone Volley
Lands: 20
4 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
8 Mountain
The idea is that you are trying to drop something turn 2 that the opponent can't deal with. Be that Inferno Titan, Hellkite Igniter, a giant Chimeric Mass, or any combination. The idea is to prep on turn 1 with cheap artifacts, then go to town on turn 2. I have no idea on proper numbers to make sure that you'll have something to dump the mana into but I figure 6 fatties and 4 mana sinks will do pretty well.
The original idea was to include Mentor of the Meek to chain your cheap creatures into more and more mana but this list drops the third color and seems more streamlined. I may try meddling with a BRW list but this seems pretty interesting for the time being.
I just wish there was an autowin card that I could run so I don't just roll over to Go for the Throat or Unsummon. The only other options that I can see are Wurmcoil Engine, Karn Liberated, Myr Battlesphere, or Blightsteel Colossus. Seven mana is fairly difficult without Geosurge, so that makes Karn shaky. I have no idea how hard it would be to hit 10 mana on turn 2 with the current BR list but I'm going to go with unlikely, so that makes Blightsteel a no. Wurmcoil and Battlesphere aren't terrible but I think a titan or a hasty dragon will get there better.
I'd appreciate feedback. I don't have any experience with AIR decks, so another person's perspective would be fantastic. Thanks!
I'm thinking that I may run Stony Silence over Grand Abolisher in the sideboard after reading/watching some other things online. It is softer on the mana base and rolls all over equipment and Shrines. Abolisher is more pointed and screwing with control but I feel like (at least in my list) that control isn't a terrible match up and Thrun should be more than enough to sure up that match. I think Stony Silence has some uses but I'll need to test it out to be sure.
Mentor is insane! I haven't been able to play with him but I was playing against him in a B/W AggroControl deck and just watching my opponent build up his board but never drop below 4 cards... It was tough. He just plays the attrition game so well. It's been said several times that if you tack on "draw a card" to any card it is instantly better and this does that but on pretty much every single creature you play, ...and Planeswalker abilities, and shrine popping, and attacking with your creatures. It's just non-stop awesome on a stick.
Ok, I'm exaggerating a bit. He is quite good and is almost always active in the deck. The main problem is that he is a three drop and competes for a highly desired slot in the deck. That's the only reason I will probably only run three of this guy. I need to test with three but until I'm able to play it and get the feeling of "This is awesome to have, I need more!" when I draw it, it will probably stick as a three-of.
@DXI-Edge - Triple Green is just fine in the deck. I think I would add in one more Forest into your list to make sure that you hit it more consistently. Running a one-of Garruk, Primal Hunter has been great for me. I highly recommend it in the deck. Card draw is extremely important to this deck and he does that, as well as make tokens, and can end games on his own. He pretty much does it all.
As far as Mayor goes, I don't think there is really a place for him in your list. I could see it in a deck with Kessig Cagebreakers but then you are slowing down your deck in several ways. First being that you have to skip a turn to get Mayor to flip. Granted the opponent could miss a drop and you get there but it just doesn't seem all that reasonable to rely on the opponent for your cards to work. Second being that you only make one token a turn assuming your Mayor makes it to the end of your turn after flipping.
With all of the other token generation spells in standard right now, there just seems like too little value with an unneeded amount of variability associated with Mayor. I'm not trying to say don't try it though. It could be something that is awesome but sounds odd on paper. I'd be interested to hear your results but, personally, I'm not seeing it.
4x Birds of Paradise
1x Avacyn's Pilgrim
3x Spellskite
2x Jade Mage
4x Blade Splicer
3x Hero of Bladehold
Spells: 14
2x Dismember
3x Shrine of Loyal Legions
2x Beast Within
2x Timely Reinforcements
1x Mimic Vat
3x Parallel Lives
1x White Sun's Zenith
2x Garruk Relentless
2x Elspeth Tirel
1x Garruk, Primal Hunter
Lands: 24
8x Plains
6x Forest
4x Sunpetal Grove
4x Razorverge Thicket
2x Gavony Township
3x Naturalize
1x Dismember
2x Day of Judgement
1x Shrine of Loyal Legions
3x Leonin Arbiter
3x Thrun, the Last Troll
2x Oblivion Ring
Round 1: U/W Aggro-ish
Basically just a janky aggro deck minus any real aggro creatures and random mana leaks. I'm not sure what was going on but my deck snowballed out of his control each game.
Record: 1-0
Round 2: Black Zombies
My deck got out of control really quick in the first match and he just never came back. Game two I was stuck on two mana til turn 5. A Shrine and three Blade splicers bought me enough time to eventually go ultimate off of Elspeth. After that I came back strong and won.
Record: 2-0
Round 3: Grixis Flashback Control
This was a really interesting deck but I just had more creatures and good spells for him to counter and/or burn everything. Each game I overwhelmed him. Snapcaster makes for some really bizarre considerations while playing.
Record: 3-0
Round 4: B/W Control
Match one he nut draws into turn 3 Liliana, discards Wurmcoil; turn 4 discards Unburial Rites and casts Wurmcoil. I didn't recover from that. Match two I held him off fairly well but I got flooded and couldn't really recover from a thrice returned Wurmcoil.
Record: 3-1
Round 5: Tempered Steel
We agree to split to ensure we both make top 8. We played for fun anyways. I got mana flooded game 1 and mana screwed game 2. I'm guessing poor shuffling but I think my luck was just running out for the evening.
Record: 3-1-1
Top 8:
Round 1: B/W Control (again)
Match one went pretty long as we kept answering each other's threats. I eventually popped a shrine and swarmed him. Match two he kept a two land hand and it was too late by the time he saw the third.
Record 4-1-1
Round 2: Tempered Steel (again)
Game one we both have slow hands, my deck petered out but I had the win on board and he top decked Tempered Steel for the win. Game two I had a strong hand and a Shrine with a Parallel Lives out sealed the deal. Game three he had a nut draw and I had to mulligan to a mediocre 6 card hand. Not much I could do. He went on to place first against a B/G Tokens deck my friend was playing.
Record: 4-2-1
Round 3: Grixis Control (again)
I split with him but I most likely would have won. His deck just seems to have nothing to deal with the flood of pseudo-card advantage that my creatures provide.
Final Record: 4-2-2
Thoughts:
I really loved playing this deck. It is such a beating if it isn't held under control quickly. There were several things I want to change about the list though.
-Mainboard Timely Reinforcements were nice but I think having 2x O-Ring would work better. I've been playing Pod decks in testing since then and Elesh Norn roflstomps our deck and only having two actual answers (4 if you count Elspeth) which isn't enough for me.
-Mentor of the Meek should be in the deck for certain. I was constantly winding up in top-deck mode and that's not a place I like to be. He helps attrition out other aggro/mid-range decks and isn't the most appealing target for removal when my other creatures are almost strictly better. Plus, I had a lot of mana sitting and him plus the Planeswalkers are just insane.
- I saw both Mimic Vat and White Sun's Zenith through out FNM and testing but while being cute, were largely underwhelming. The same goes for Jade Mage. She was great for curving purposes but more often than not she was just a vanilla 2/1 that didn't do anything.
- I love Parallel Lives in this deck. It just pushed all of your other cards over the top. I need to test out Intangible Virtue but I really think that higher quantities of creatures served me more in my matches than having more buffed creatures would have. I'll share my findings but I'm pretty sure I'll fall on the side of Parallel Lives.
The list I'll be altering to is:
4x Birds of Paradise
1x Avacyn's Pilgrim
3x Spellskite
3x Mentor of the Meek
4x Blade Splicer
3x Hero of Bladehold
1x Geist-Honored Monk
Spells: 14
2x Dismember
3x Shrine of Loyal Legions
2x Beast Within
2x Oblivion Ring
3x Parallel Lives
2x Garruk Relentless
2x Elspeth Tirel
1x Garruk, Primal Hunter
Lands: 24
8x Plains
6x Forest
4x Sunpetal Grove
4x Razorverge Thicket
2x Gavony Township
3x Naturalize
1x Dismember
2x Day of Judgement
3x Grand Abolisher
3x Thrun, the Last Troll
3x Timely Reinforcements
I would like to try out Grand Abolisher mainboard but I think the double white is going to be too problematic. Relegating it to the Sideboard seems alright. Just to help screw with the Draw-Go style decks that will most likely be showing up at future FNMs.
Anyways, sorry I got a little long winded there. Just trying to be thorough with my thoughts so I can be more helpful with the discussion. If there is anything you guys have questions on, let me know and I'll be glad to discuss further and/or clarify.
I brewed up a Heartless Summoning B/R deck for post rotation but I was underwhelmed with it. So, I'll be trying to come up with something closer to what I was playing pre-rotation. I really like Bloodgift Demon though. Flying is so huge and the card draw is awesome (and the occasional 1pt burn for the win hilarity sounds awesome).
Cards I'll definitely be including:
- Moltensteel Dragon
- Bloodgift Demon
- Tumble Magnet
- Despise
- Mimic Vat
- Stensia Bloodhall
- I like the effect but it's use comes up so infrequently that I won't be running more than 1.Tezzeret's Gambit or Altar's Reap
Dismember and/or Go for the Throat
Cards I'm going to be testing out:
Chandra's Phoenix - I miss Nighthawk...
Incinerate vs Shock
I'll be working on that this weekend. I'll post my pilot deck list when I get it all pulled together.
Just as a side note, I don't want to play Liliana because I feel like she doesn't get a lot of value from the deck. Definitely a powerful card and I won't discount it from the build if her inclusion helps the deck power up but I just don't see it as of right now.
Yeah, I understand that. Both of the cards are strong, I'm not trying to say they aren't. In fact, I'm going to be running G/W Tokens with 3x Parallel Lives and 1x Mimic Vat in it. I just don't think of them as a central strategy but if they show up, then they are fantastic.
They just require a specific style of play in order to be degenerate. I was just getting at that if you want to make full use of Mimic Vat, a removal centered deck would be your best bet. Before rotation I ran a B/R Mimic Vat deck but without Sarkhan the Mad to make killing off my creatures beneficial. With out something along those lines you run into the problem that the deck will need to play off of the opponent too much to be as competitive as it needs to be.
That being said, I like the singleton Mimic Vat in my current deck because if it is out, it tilts any attack in my favor. It is a head game style card and I love that. I just haven't been able to make it work as a central theme inside of a deck despite about a year of trying. So, by all means, try it out and if it works, more power to you. I'm just speaking from my experiences with the card.
How does Birthing Pod fit into this? Using one turn to play vat, then next turn play pod, then next turn play a ~4cmc creature and then sac it? It sounds cute and I like the interaction but it seems a bit too loose to me. I was thinking in terms of B/R with Mimic Vat more so than G/x Mimic Vat.
Parallel Lives shenanigans are fun to think about and all but I don't think you'll be making the best use of Mimic Vat by playing green. You want to be using your opponent's deck against them, not killing your own creatures (unless you are profiting or semi-profiting off of their death, eg. Altar's Reap or Wurmcoil Engine).
Tezzeret's Gambit, Bloodgift Demon, Altar's Reap (in response to removal), Slagstorm, Massacre Wurm, Mimic Vat, Liliana of the Veil, Olivia Voldaren, Skinrender (more tempo than CA I guess but still good), and Sheoldred.
Finishers in R/B:
Inferno Titan, Grave Titan, Wurmcoil Engine, Moltensteel Dragon, and some overlap from the CA list as well.
R/B control lost Sign in Blood, Vampire Nighthawk, Lightning Bolt, Sarkhan the Mad and Abyssal Persecutor in rotation. Which is a significant hit but it got several other tools to make it work. I never had an issue with aggro pre-rotation unless they got the nut draw or I hit a land clump. It's not a tier 1 deck but it definitely isn't a bad deck.