MTG Salvation

Zelderex, I think it may have to do with the way that it has been broken up. If it were around 3 or 4 spoiler sections total, it would feel a little less chunky. Probably just a section for the core of the deck, a section for filler cards, and a section with popular decklists would be all you need to get the point across. Then inside of the core and fillers, you can include the card explanations and have them broken up by "Beaters" "Enablers" etc. I appreciate the effort you put into the current one and I think it works at outlining the deck. It just seems a little too detailed. Plus, it helps that I already knew how the deck operated and what most of the details were from messing around with the cards before. So, the current one doesn't seem as clunky to me as I guess it does for others.

I run a land base of:



Along with 2x Mox Opal and 2x Birds of Paradise and I was able to cast everything in my deck without issues. I was more focused on aggro-ing out and killing that way. I've tweaked the deck a bit too far away from the focus of this thread now though. No Vengevines, Bloodghasts, nor Zombie Infestation, haha.

I'd do something like this:



14 artifacts seems a little low but I think the amount of draw from the deck should make up for it to allow Molten Psyche to be active more often than not. Kozilek is there just to keep you from milling yourself. Not sure if it would be an issue but I'd rather be safe than sorry.

It looks like a good primer Zelderex. There were a few things I noticed that need to be fixed. You forgot to put "Chapter 5:" before Tactical Intelligence. I don't know if you can do anything about it but the Ch3 title is smaller than the others (may just be my computer though). And, maybe add deck lists to it at the end? Other than those things, it looks pretty good. Very nice job.

Quote from Overcast »

yea you have some good points there about smallpox vs infestation. here's my counter-argument for your list:
i'm hesitant about infestation because you may make like 1 or 2 zombies out of it and that's it. you don't have much card draw, you have lots of disposable creatures that can die fast, no pharaoh, and i just see it not giving you the bang for the buck you want (and an empty hand instead). smallpox is a quick one-time way to discard a vengevine or ghast, clear out a blocker, and put them back a turn from their day of judgment or whatever they'd use to stop you. i see your problem with lands though, and it'd take a couple extra slots to add enough lands to support it. in my build, i find contested war zone is fairly handy with smallpox. post combat you have a tapped war zone or two on your side, and you know the opponent will get them back next turn anyway, just sacrifice it to smallpox.

if i can find space for instant speed removal, great. there are so many considerations in my list, like ratios of discard enablers to graveyard trash, and creatures to recur vengevine, artifacts to keep riddlesmith going, etc. i'm tempted to throw a lot of removal in the sideboard, instead of extra main deck. lots of decks nowadays like that caw blade feel where you have a bunch of crappy creatures nobody wants to kill. nobody wants to bolt a squadron hawk unless it's equipped. and then it's better to naturalize that equipment than kill the bird.

I'm not looking to unload as many of those creatures into my graveyard as possible. Infestation is functioning in my deck to primarily cast a Vengevine/Bloodghast for :1mana::symb:/:2mana::symb: or secondarily to turn dead draws into 2/2 bodies. I don't know, I'm looking to utilize the graveyard but I don't want to go all in on it. It seems a pretty awkward but it works fairly well. I was running Contested War Zones MB but there is just too much aggro in my meta at the moment to keep them in. I figure turning the Inkmoth's into 5/5's with Tezzeret is a pretty decent alternate win condition.

I don't understand what you mean by graveyard trash. Do you mean cards that want to be in the graveyard or cards that you don't mind pitching because they aren't good? I'm sure that finding room for removal is going to be a meta call. I haven't tested your list but I can sleeve up a proxy to test out and I'll let you know where I see loose areas or changes I would make. What list are you liking the most right now?

What about Kiln Fiend? It works similarly to Plated Geopede but synergizes with your burn spells instead of lands. Burning out their blockers and having him attack as a 7/2 on turn 3 is quite devastating.

I'm not sold on Smallpox. I like Zombie Infestation over it mainly because it is a permanent. People tend to freak out over it for some reason so they waste removal spells on it. Plus, being up a body on the field after discarding is better for the deck in my opinion. I can try Smallpox out in the slot though and see if I like it better. I'm just running so few lands that it kind of freaks me out to discard one when it is fairly crucial to me. The deck can operate somewhat on one land but two tends to be the bare minimum to operate effectively.

On the removal topic, I feel it depends on the way your deck plays out. Mine is really aggressive and I'm only wanting to see one or two removal spells just to get that last bit of damage in, so 5 spot removal spells works for me. I understand your desire to find creatures that perform a similar utility but I think just using the spells is going to be a stronger option.

I'll have to keep Postmortem Lunge in mind while I'm playing. I don't know where I'd fit it in the deck right now but I'll see how often I find myself noticing situations where the effect would be useful while I'm testing it.

Lastly, on Opal. I just can't see myself playing a card that I'm making barely passable when combined with one or two other cards. It just doesn't seem reliable enough to make the cut without proper support to me. I'd rather run a removal spell over it just for more utility.

I feel like Plated Geopede is not really working for the deck. Not really sure why, probably because it requires 8-12 fetches to be passable while nothing else really benefits from the landfall (although Grim Lavamancer does use them to some extent). I feel that the list really needs Vengevine.

Life's Finale will wipe out your creatures as well as your opponent's which seems like it will just set you back. I'd say if you want to go with the Galvanizer route that you should focus almost exclusively on mana Myr as your creature base. So, I'd drop Hovermyr, Myr Reservoir, Wurmcoil, and Frost Titan, and possibly the swords. That's 9-11 slots for one Silver Myr, 4 Leaden Myr, 4 Myr Galvanizer and possibly another Myr Battlesphere. Maybe a one-of Blue Sun's Zenith in place of a Ponder or Tezzeret's Gambit. Like I said, if you can make infinite mana, you might as well win with it. You could try Myr Superion over Paladium Myr but that depends on how the deck seems to play out for you. If you need more mana myr then stick with Paladium.

Why not run Adaptive Automation and Myr Galvanizer? Probably could include Phyrexian Metamorph as well. Myr Turbine is a pretty sweet card. You could easily ramp into it and then tutor out your Battlesphere. It's just too bad it costs 5 or you could tutor it up with Treasure Mage... If you go with the Myr Galvanizer route you could also run Blue Sun's Zenith and go infinite with mana and make them draw their whole deck as an alternate and hilarious win condition.

I made a thread awhile ago based on Zombie Infestation and Battle Cry with VV and Bloodghast. I only really get to play test at FNMs due to work and life outside of Magic. The first iteration flopped from no testing, but I made top 8 with the second iteration (except the store owner screwed up and put in me losing 0-2 instead of winning 2-0 in the second round and I didn't actually get to play). Anyways, I have changed the deck to BUG colors and figured it was similar enough to what you have been play testing that I could post it and at the very least give you another perspective.



It's aiming to be an aggro deck. Zombie Infestation pitches VV and Blooghast to create bodies for Battle Cry and general beat down. Birds and Mox help mana fix and ramp. Turn 2 Tezzeret is possible with a godly draw but turn three seems more likely. Seems like it can play the beat down against Control decks and can play the control aspect pretty well against Aggro.

Anyways, I know that you guys are working on a more Mid-Range alpha strike with recurred Vengevines. I think it is an interesting idea, I had a deck many moons ago that did the same thing. With less graveyard hate in standard I think this idea has some potential.

I had some thoughts while looking over your deck lists:

-Mox Opal is amazing but you really need to commit to metalcraft if you want to use it effectively. I'd say 17-18 is the bear minimum you want to make it work. If you don't meet that, then that slot is probably better for more utility or control cards.

-I'm pretty sure most of the lists don't have enough spot removal. Small Pox does work as does Vengeful Pharaoh but there are instances where the spot removal is important (killing a creature in response to a Sword equip for example). I just see the board getting bogged down with enemy creatures and no real way to deal with it effectively.

-I like the Birthing Pod list but I feel like Zombie Infestation is a little counter productive when it comes to recurring VV from your graveyard. You probably need more card draw to counteract the card disadvantage of the Infestation. Maybe Sphinx of Lost Truths as an end-of-chain effect on a creature? Otherwise something like See Beyond or Tezzeret's Gambit/Divination might be helpful.

-I'm curious as to what you are bringing back with Postmortem Lunge.

Anyways, I hope this is helpful for discussion. I'd like feedback on my list as well. Thanks for reading all this. I got a little carried away. Just wanted to be thorough. Haha.

Spellskite is a pretty awesome defensive card. Soaks up all sorts of removal and is very disruptive. I think how your partner's deck functions will have a lot to do with how your deck should be put together. You don't want to be blowing up creatures if your partner is trying to amass an army.

Last time I did a two headed giant tournament, combined my partner and I played Grixis control (I had B/R and he had B/U). I basically ran a bunch of spot creature removal and Mimic Vat with a handful of Titans and my partner ran a bunch of disruption and counter spells with his own handful of finishers/Titans. We won that tournament.

Basically what I'm getting at is that you probably don't have to play super defense just to avoid letting the opponent do anything potentially devastating.

What do you guys think of Swiftfoot Boots to protect our end game bombs like Titan from the mass amounts of targeted removal? Generally we have excess mana while dropping our bombs turn 5 or 6. The problem I see is the tempo disadvantage that comes with casting it before we cast our other spells (making the choice between turn two Chalice or Boots for example) as well as that it doesn't inherently deal damage or produce an advantage. I'm thinking just like 2 or 3 copies MB or SB to help in control match ups. Thoughts?

Check again. It says "deals 10 damage." It can be redirected to a planeswalker.

Sorin's Vengeance

I've been seeing quite a bit of talk about Sorin's Vengeance on the site (mainly in the standard deck creation section) and I'm just curious as to what the appeal is. I guess this is mainly because I've seen people are comparing it to Cruel Ultimatum and I just don't see it.

I get that it is a powerful effect but in the long run you aren't really gaining all that much. Seven mana is quite a bit to commit to one card in general. By the time you can cast it against Aggro you should have either taken control of the game or you're already dead, against Control you aren't going to get it through a counter spell past turn 6, and against Combo you are essentially in the same boat as with Aggro.

I feel like there are just much better choices out there for ending a game in Black. I am intrigued though because it does seem to be showing up a fair amount and I'm a currently enjoying playing with Black cards. Can someone please explain the appeal to me? I would like to see the tech to this card if it exists. Thanks in advance.

Let me answer your question with another: Is tapping out turn 3 for a Planeswalker on an open board really worth it? Yes. Just because you can play a card doesn't mean you should but having the option to do so is better than restricting yourself unnecessarily. For the record, I was just listing off cards with counters off the top of my head to abuse with the massive amount of proliferation listed in the OP.

As for your new list jerbo, I like the direction it is headed. I don't know how useful a 2-of Everflowing Chalice would be though. I feel like if you want to excel your mana, you want to do it early which means you want 4 of them. That may just be me though. I'd also run 2 or 3 Inferno Titan instead of the split you have on them now (2 Inferno, 1 Frost if only 2). If you are planning to win off of Sorin's Vengeance, he will be best at getting some reaching damage in to make it so you don't have to rely so much on the Chandra+Vengeance combo.

That being said, I'm curious to see how your testing goes. I'm skeptical of Sorin's Vengeance but if you find it especially powerful I will try testing out your deck list.