MTG Salvation

The only reason you'd really need Fire-lit Thicket is if you're running Scavenging Ooze so you can get multiple activations out of him. Otherwise, it's unneeded. I tried playing Jund Loam recently with 2 Cairns and I was constantly wanting to see them. 3-4 is where you want to be on that.

Played Jund Loam this evening with a fancy set of Bloodstained Mires. I went 2-2, beating BW lifegain home brew and 8Rack while losing to 8Rack and Zoo. Largely chalked up the losses to it having been awhile since playing with the deck. Having the Mires was immensely helpful. The list I played was:



I took out Helix and a Flame Jab in almost every match I played for Decay and Pulse. So I'm just going to make that switch. I also want to get the 4th Assault back in the deck but I haven't figured out how I'm going to go about doing that. Though I never really had a problem having it stick around when I needed it. The main board felt really strong though. It was just the sideboard and fighting through hate that really got me. Also, finding out that my friend has been borrowing 4 of my Obstinate Baloths was a little disheartening as I played against 8Rack twice and having the 2-3 in the board that I wanted would have been rather helpful. I'm not sold on Scooze in the deck just because of the red requirements. Finks may be better in that slot but I'm not terribly sure on that. Regardless, the SB needs a fair amount of help and was just thrown together with stuff I had lying around. Any suggestions would be more than welcome. Also, the mana base needs a third Graven Cairns to help cast Assault more reliably. I had a game against Zoo where I lost to not being able to cast Assault.

Anyways, I had a ton of fun running this again. Grindy Mid-Range shenanigans are always enjoyable for me.

I personally like having proactive options currently. The Jund Aggro Loam build is pretty solid right now. It functions a lot like the GBx decks in that it has a lot of versatility and powerful cards but has access to the Assault Loam engine for late game reach and grind. However, if the meta starts moving back towards being more combo centered, then a more interactive but reactive build like my RUG Loam list might prove to be better. Gifts decks have always felt too slow and too easily disrupted for my personal tastes. By necessity, they play very few copies of cards to get as much utility out of Gifts as possible and it feels very inconsistent without Gifts and slow with Gifts. Keeping the curve low and running Bob seems like a better source of advantage and consistency to me.

The Scepter example you gave isn't correct. It isn't a 2-for-1. By leaving the mana open, you are effectively making the Decay a 1-for-1 and you get to cast your Lightning Helix (for whatever value). If you weren't able to activate it, then it becomes a 2-for-1 since you lost the ability to cast Helix. The main difference is that your opponent controls the activation of the Scepter and you lose out on potential repeatable value. As far as it's applications in the deck, I don't like that it uses up slots that could either be creatures or ways to flip Delver.

I've made some changes to my list to try out in the coming weeks.



I cut Sacred Foundry for an additional Spell Snare, Sword of Fire and Ice for Simic Charm, Electrolyze for Jeskai Charm, Grim Lavamancer for Hooting Mandrills, and Moorland Haunt for Slayer's Stronghold. I wanted to give 18 lands a try, which opened up a slot for another spell that needed to hit low on the curve. I also want to see what 26 spells is like, so I cut Sword which in turn makes Moorland Haunt weaker (as well as competing with Mandrills) so those both got replaced. Slayers' Stronghold is the best of the on-color Innistrad ability lands for the deck. I'm not crazy about having to tap out main phase for it, but it seems better than Alchemist's Refuge for 16 non-Instant/Flash cards.

I didn't jam 4 Goyfs in over spells. I made sure to keep the spell count up above 25. I tested Goyf for a bit more than two weeks and ran it through about 40+ games in tournaments and playtesting against a variety of decks. It just sat awkwardly on the curve and wouldn't hit play until much later than I wanted it to (after I had burnt most of my tempo cards). Modern games don't really start until turn 2 and being able to squeeze in a threat under Mana Leak/Spell Snare and then preventing your opponents turn 2 play is one of the biggest tempo plays in a game. The deck thrives on getting some repeatable damage source in play on turn 1 then just buying time until you win the game a handful of turns later. Goyf mucks up that plan a bit too much. I'd maybe run it as a 2-of but honestly, it just doesn't suit the deck well despite being a cheap beater. If you play it turn 2, you are allowing your opponent to resolve something that you need to match and with the card quality in modern, that's usually going to cost you two cards for their one (Voice of Resurgence for example). Having Goyf in play was never worth the tempo advantage the opponent gets.

There is 1 or 2 slots for anything that costs more than 2 in my deck (which is only a concession to having occasional later game power). I don't see how recommending I drop a color and force Cryptic, Shackles and Blood Moon into a deck is a reasonable suggestion to what I have been trying to achieve with the curve. I can appreciate that Goyf has worked for you, but basically telling me to post elsewhere because my deck is inferior on the premise that I don't run 1 card that you like (with the insubstantial claim that "[it's] better in this deck than Nacatl," to back that up). Honestly it makes me not really care to take you seriously. However, I hope this is just us getting off to a poor start and would like to give you the benefit of the doubt. Just in the future I would like to get better responses than "Play a different deck."

How has Gitaxian Probe been working for you? I've considered running it but I don't like the uncertainty it put into an opening hand as well as taking additional damage on top of starting most games at 14-16 life. Has it been worthwhile for you? Has it cost you any games? With only 2 Helix to off set the self inflicted damage, I'd imagine Burn and Affinity end up being extremely difficult match ups.

Possibly. I'll message ktkenshinx and see what we can do.

I started a thread a couple weeks ago on this. Didn't feel like a primer was necessary but if there is one, I'd rather get some discussion going on the deck. I've been playing the deck on and off for something like 6 months. A little after the unban of Nacatl. The idea being that dropping a decent clock on turn 1 followed by infinite tempo would win games. It went 4-0 the second time I played the deck. I've been wanting to refine the list to prep for a GP in February. Here's what I've been running:



I've been liking 19 lands but I may try out going to 18. I don't agree with running 10-12 fetches. It seems excessive. I need to cut Sacred Foundry from my list. I had a couple hands recently where it made getting the right colors off of my opening hand difficult. I highly recommend Noble Hierarch in this deck. Not only does it give you mana advantage and decent mana fixing but Exalted is also extremely relevant in cutting the clock down on the deck. Going from 7 turns to kill to 5 (assuming no other damage/lifegain). Moorland Haunt has been an awesome source of grindy advantage. It was better with Runechanter's Pike but with Grim Lavamancer and Snapcaster, Pike has gotten a bit worse in the deck. Sword of Fire and Ice has been pretty great but 3cmc is a bit awkward.

I like the idea of playing Hooting Mandrills. It won't come down until turn 4+ but costing G for a 4/4 that can't be decayed seems good. I'll have to give that a try next time I play. I didn't like Tarmogoyf in the deck when I played with him. It generally wasn't much bigger than a Nacatl or Delver and having to tap out on turn 2 for it meant sacrificing disruption for the opponent's plays. Outside of Snapcaster (really a 3 or 4 drop in the deck for value) I wanted all my creatures to cost 1 mana.

The flex spots I've been playing with are: 1 Electrolyze, 1 Sword of Fire and Ice, 1 Spell Snare, 1 Grim Lavamancer, 1 Sacred Foundry. I'm wanting to try out Jeskai Charm over Electrolyze and possibly Forked Bolt or Arc Trail over Sacred Foundry. I originally had Ajani Vengeant in the deck who was solid and won games if he landed but I often found myself winning before I needed to resolve him. I wouldn't mind getting a Planeswalker back into the deck (over sword maybe) but I'm unsure of which one to go with. Elspeth, Knight Errant, Garruk Relentless and Sarkhan Vol are others I have considered.

I have been really happy with the core of the deck. I have trouble against Merfolk and Bloom Titan, GBx decks and Control are pretty favorable, Pod decks favorable, Twin decks are about 50/50. Burn and Affinity are about 50/50 game 1 and get much better game 2+. I have really been enjoying the deck. If you play tight, it wins and fast.

It's kind of weak that we didn't get a sticky despite having been in Established and that the deck is a known archetype. I'm sure there is some rules snafu on this site somewhere preventing it.

Mana Tithe is a bit too narrow. Mana Leak already has limitations because this deck doesn't kill exceptionally fast. I don't see a one time "gotcha!" card being fantastic. Swan Song giving them a 2/2 flyer is a fairly large liability while running Delver. I don't think I like either of those options. Path isn't a terrible idea but I only really like it against Twin decks. The extra land works against Leak. I could definitely give it a try but I'm not huge on the idea. I think I may try out Boros Charm as a foil to kill spells and it also gives the deck some reach. I really like the techy 1-of aspect of the deck.

I went undefeated at my LGS with this list:



I played against UG Eternal Command, Merfolk, Bloom Titan Combo, and Mono Black Infect.

Notes from the evening:
- If you have Delver and Nacatl in your opener, leading Nacatl seems to be the correct play. Especially if you have Noble in your opener as well. Fetch, Temple Garden, Nacatl into Fetch, Steam Vents, Noble, Delver, swing 4 is pretty brutal. That sequence came up 3 times last night and I initially tried running out Delver first but having to choose between Noble or Nacatl the following turn slowed the amount of available pressure. I ended up running out Noble after flipping Delver to Visions and cast the Visions. So things worked out, but in general, I think playing out Nacatl first represents more consistent pressure and also plays the illusion game of us being on Zoo, instead of a tempo deck.

- Grim Lavamancer was fantastic in the 3 games I saw it. Having uncounterable burn is great and since there is just the one, him and Snapcaster never stepped on each others toes.

- Electrolyze has been so-so for me. I tend to side it out fairly often and the times where I do cast it, it's usually just an EoT shock+draw. Which feels really bad. I think I'm going to go back to Arc Trail or I'll give Forked Bolt a try. Something along those lines.

- Sword of Fire and Ice has been decent. The three mana and sorcery speed on it has been pretty awkward but when it comes down to the end of a game, having it in play feels really good and instantly turns all the creatures into significant threats. Connecting with it isn't necessarily game winning but it's pretty close. I still think Pike is solid but with Lavamancer in the mix now, Sword is probably the right choice.

- Spell Snare never was relevant in the 2 games where I saw it. I'd still want it over Vapor Snag but I want to try something else over it. A friend recommended Qasali Pridemage as more Exalted as well as MB enchant/artifact hate (as well as more cat flavor for the deck). Which sounds decent but I don't know about cutting more instants/sorceries from the deck. Delver is reliant on blind flips pretty often and whiffing is pretty painful. I'd have to test to see if going to 24 spells is relevant but I have to imagine that it is. If anyone has any other recommendations for spells that may be more useful in this slot, I'd love to hear them.

I watched a legacy game where Gregory Hatch played a deck he called Mono-U Martyr against MUD that was very similar to this. I tried porting it over and came up with this list:



I took his original list and tried to find the best replacements I could. Losing Daze and Force are probably nails in the coffin for a direct port but I figured it was a decent starting point. The problem I see is that it has to go off at Sorcery speed, where the legacy version goes off at instant speed but Ground Rift doesn't seem like the worst card ever.

They have been amazing. Getting in for additional damage and mana advantage are both huge benefits to running it. Plus it's a one drop and fits the deck's playstyle perfectly.

I'm not entirely sure if I'd go all in on Steam + Temple. I like to err on the side of versatility and the mana base I posted reflects that. The "core" lands are definitely Steam and Temple. Having access to the others to round out potential unseen combinations of mana requirements has been useful for me. Having access to basics is fairly important and has come up as being relevant several times. Being able to conserve your life total whenever possible is a nice boon for the deck. Honestly, I haven't really ever had mana issues outside of flooding out with 20 in the deck. I have fetched for each shock over several different games and match ups. I'm always glad to have had them. I think quantifying the mana base the way you are deviates the focus away from the functionality of the toolbox style mana. As long as there are roughly equivalent amounts of colors with easy access, then the difference between 12 and 13 sources shouldn't be a huge deal. Each spell specifically only needs a single mana of any given color. The main focus should be on having the mana to use the variety of 2cmc spells off of any given two lands. If you think going all in on Steam Vents and Temple Garden is where you'd want to be, then go ahead. It isn't inherently wrong and will let you use everything. Just seems unnecessarily limited to me.

I tested a lot of game 1's against Burn today. It's not nearly as bad as I thought and only gets better post-board. Having access to Lightning Helix is big but the main thing is having tons of ways to interact. Nacatl stone walling Goblin Guide is real nice. The main things I noticed for the match up are keeping pressure in play is important. The games I won I was getting in for 3-4 and finished off with bolts. They do a surprising amount of damage to themselves. Especially with Eidolon of the Great Revel. The games were usually very close but being able to buy turns with counter magic is very important. Also, if you are at a low life total (like, 7 or less) don't tap out end of turn. Other than that, tight play and winning the die roll are your best bet. Game 1 I would say is around 50/50. It can tilt toward one deck or the other really easy through the course of a game.

In general I don't like cards that solely gain life. There are enough cards that do something and gain life, that something like Hero's Reunion isn't worthwhile. That's why I run Timely Reinforcements because it gains 6 life and gets you 3 guys. Though, I've been considering cutting them for Leyline of Sanctity. There are two burn players in my meta, so it does come up occasionally. Timely has been decent enough in that match up but there are a lot of discard decks showing up in my meta and having the dual coverage of Leyline for both match ups seems better. It not being able to flip Delver is a bit awkward but it seems like the right call.

The problem with prioritizing Stomping Ground and Hallowed Fountain over Temple Garden and Steam Vents is that they don't activate Moorland Haunt. It may not come up very often but it is a thing to be aware of. The Mountain and the Sacred Foundry are there for a couple reasons. People caught on to me originally only running Forest and Island in my deck. So they would attack my Red and White sources with things like Ghost Quarter or Path on Noble. I put in the Mountain so I can fetch the color when I needed it. Sacred Foundry is borderline going to be a Plains (to get a white source for value when I need it from a Path or whatever). Though if the meta doesn't have a ton of Blood Moon, being able to instantly turn on Nacatl with a fetch is worth running. I'm not positive on that decision quite yet. I am going to try out running a basic Plains to see if that's relevant.

I generally haven't had much issue with the different UWx control decks. Not that it is a particularly easy match up but if you play to your outs and make as much use of them tapping out as you can, it shouldn't be too difficult. Being able to out-counter them is quite nice. We are more punishing on them than they are on us. So keeping pressure is usually good enough to get there.

@powahcube - I can't imagine Karoo lands are useful in that list. Having lands in play is how you get value off of Mining and the Karoo lands keep fewer lands in play. I know you have the dudes to force lands into play but relying on them seems tenuous. Not to mention you get blown out by Ghost Quarter and Tectonic Edge as well as you can't keep hands with only Karoo lands in them. That just seems like a very poor choice for the deck.

@General Radchek - Running less than 4 Life from the Loam seems wrong. It turns up the value on several of the cards in your deck. Also, you have 12 cards that cost 3 or more, which isn't necessarily a bad thing but it opens you up to getting bottlenecked on the spells you can play in a turn. Which means you become soft to counter magic. Just as a general deck building theme in Modern I try not to play more than 8 high mana spells so you're less easily disrupted by blue decks that will look to counter a spell each turn.