Was anyone really saying legends is a bad set? It's iconic as hell and has tons of powerful cards, maybe only second to alpha (although urza's saga puts up a good fight).
Not sure I'm convinced the legends rule is good (I don't even really see an argument that it is). Flavor-wise, it is (or at least used to be) a big win. These days...idk man. Having both versions of jhoira is fine, but having 2 of the same version isn't? Maybe it's supposed to be a multiple timelines thing, but then why can you and your opponent have one, but one poofs as soon as one switches sides? It feels like a top-down rule that's proven to be bad for gameplay, and at this point wotc is just trying to pay lip service to the flavor motivations while essentially destroying everything mechanically important about it.
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- DirkGently
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Member for 12 years, 10 months, and 5 days
Last active Tue, Jan, 17 2023 01:06:05
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WotC's predatory model here isn't bad because I personally might miss out, or worry about missing out. It's bad because it's simply morally wrong. There are many people out there - and while do I have these tendencies, personally I can keep them in check in this instance - who are going to see a product that's only available for a short time and decide they have to buy it, not because they actually want it, but because they're worried they might want it later. And in particular the structure of MtG makes they predatory practice really powerful, because unlike a limited edition figurine or whatever, not just the value but also the function of these cards could change with the release of future cards. Maybe Rick doesn't look legacy viable now, but maybe WotC makes some really pushed human tribal cards in the future and suddenly he's an in-demand 3-of for a top-tier legacy deck. There's also such a short window between the announcement and the "gotta buy it right now" window that there's not much time to test these cards with proxies, for players who might want to do some research for buying, or who just might want more time to think it over. Most cards are easily available for years before supplies start to dry up, which gives plenty of time for those cards to be tested and proven in various formats - whether that's a competitive format or casual commander. With these, you've gotta buy 'em RIGHT NOW BUY THEM RIGHT NOW OR YOU'LL NEVER HAVE THEM. And who knows what the next set will look like, or the next, or the next? It took WotC TWO unique BaB promos to screw up and make one standard-competitive. We're just going to hope that doesn't happen again, except potentially much worse, this time? They're playing with fire here, fire they've proven they cannot control, and they're doing it out of greed, pure and simple. It's wrong and they know it's wrong.
And the price point, seriously, is just so egregious. I don't know what their margins are, but it's safe to say that this is absolutely insane. Normal packs you're getting 15 pieces of cardboard for $3, give or take. $1 for 5. This is fifty times that price for the same stuff. Yes, singles get expensive, but they get expensive on the backs of all the other cards that wotc makes that don't. And more importantly, wotc isn't directly benefitting off the skyrocketing cost of cards, especially old cards, whereas in this case they're deliberately causing it. It's the difference between someone dying in an accident and being murdered.
I don't necessarily mind IP bleed as much as most - I love seeing pop culture alters for the most part (I've got an genie transforming abu alter of [[pongify]] for example), I'm happy to play against silver-bordered cards, and I love P3k - in fact I wish they did more similar things, because I really don't give a crap about the MtG story or characters and everything I read from it makes me cringe. But The Walking Dead is, imo, a very very poor choice of crossover IP for a couple reasons:
1) It takes place in a near-real-world, and the cards depict real human actors. This is way more jarring to me than any Kaiju.
2) More importantly, TWD is a currently running commercial product, and WotC partnering with them is essentially selling us advertisements for that show. That is a huge difference between, say, P3K which afaik isn't shilling for any Chinese history books. Luckily I'm not super interested in the design of any of these cards, but if I were, I'd be very bothered by being forced to run one themed around another commercial property like TWD. Sure, Godzilla technically is too, but I sure haven't seen any movies advertised for Spacegodzilla or Mechagodzilla or whatever. They're old enough to feel like general cultural consciousness, and not something trying to sell itself right now. And more importantly they're available in normal "magic" versions so I'm not forced to play with them, and I don't (except death corona because that's too gold to pass up).
3) Less importantly, The Walking Dead is just the worst show. It blows my mind that people still watch that dreck and think it's actually good. Season 1 was mediocre and then season 2 was already unforgivably bad in so many ways - boring, contrived, nonsensical, boring, poorly-written, under-budgeted, boring, and with few, if any, redeeming characters. If this was a crossover with a property I had even a modicum of respect for, I'd be a lot more conflicted, but there are few shows I have less respect for than TWD. Thirteen Reasons Why, there we go, I found one. If they partner with 13RW I will throw my magic collection off a bridge.
By making these cards TWD, they're saying that if I want to play these cards, I have to support the walking dead and play with cards that have their names and images on them. That is a massive barf from me. As mentioned, none of these hugely appeal (I guess I might want to try Negan out? But it's certainly not a pressing need) but who knows what the future might hold with future lairs that might have more interesting mechanics with flavor I dislike? I also don't relish the idea of getting my ass kicked by Ronald McDonald because they pushed their mcdonalds crossover to hell and back. Silver border lets me say "no", black border does not.
All that said, I'm certainly not calling for deposing the RC. I wish they had banned them, and I think they should have, but I do understand their reasoning - a banlist really isn't the "proper" way to prevent these things from happening. I happen to think it's still an effective way, and that when faced with the potential ruination of the format, efficacy is more important that decorum, but I don't think they should get removed for their opinion, definitely not.
Even if you don't care about the predatory business model, even if you don't care about the risks to tournament formats, even if you don't care about the effective extending of the reserved list, even if you don't care about the international magic community, even if you don't care about having functional advertisements for a commercial product in the middle of your game, even if you like the walking dead for some reason (why am I not surprised you like that god-awful excuse for television?), even if you think the designs are interesting, even if you don't care about magic get polluted with every IP WotC can whore itself out to, even if you don't care about the sanctity of black borders, even if you don't find the depiction of living actors on magic cards cringey as hell, even if you don't care about the health of LGSs which are already dying...why on this green Earth would any human being get "HYPED" to pay $50 for 5 unproven cards that cost wotc pennies to make? Do you just love getting ripped off?
Every new player to the game would need to learn the additional rules, it's not already in place for new players who may be deterred by convoluted rules like multiple banlists. And by this point, most players who play commander probably started playing without BaaC existing. So it's no longer "already in place".
I cannot fathom why someone could care so much about losing 3 cards. If they banned my three favorite cards in the whole game (maybe...life from the loam, sunforger, and Phelddagrif?) I wouldn't still be whining about it five years later. WotC has printed thousand and thousands of cards since that time, pick some of those to play and GET OVER IT.
1) It's a blatantly predatory business model. "If you miss a drop, it's gone forever" or whatever their stupid slogan is. They're obviously preying on peoples' FOMO to sell these things, because people are worried they might want it later and the price will skyrocket. It's the same psychologically manipulative tactics that mobile games have been "pioneering" in an effort to force people to part with their money as effectively as possible. This was semi-acceptable with reprints since at least those cards were already available at whatever the price was, but with these, there's really no telling where the price will go.
2) The price is extortionary. Ignoring the tokens because who gives a damn, you're paying $10 per card, assuming you're in a place where you don't have to pay import taxes or whatever else. That's a price we're used to because of the singles market, but the reason some singles are worth $10+ is because of all the many, many, many cards that AREN'T worth that much. For every $10 piece of cardboard WotC produces for a penny, they make hundreds of worthless cards for the same cost, and leave it to the secondary market to sort out what is worth what. By straight-up selling cards for $10, they're putting in almost zero effort and blatantly ripping players off.
3) There is already a precedent for crossovers in magic, in fact there have been two: silver border cards, which almost everyone I've met is happy to allow in a game of casual commander so long as they aren't being abused, and the godzilla "alt-art" versions from Ikoria. Either of these would have been acceptable to most people, but they didn't do either - because if they did alt-arts, then they wouldn't be able to prey on FOMO because most people would just pick them up in a normal version, and if they did silver-border, then players wouldn't consider them "real cards" and so they wouldn't feel it as necessary to pick them up and they won't sell as many copies (likely only fans of TWD would pick them up, which imo ought to be the goal anyway). It's a blatantly greedy move to push the cards without regard for how players are going to feel about them.
4) Having non-magic IP, especially modern day real-world-adjacent IP, forced into the game is annoying and immersion breaking. Personally I'm a little luke-warm on this point since I'd be happy to see, for example, a set based around lord of the rings or some similarly venerable IP, but as someone who watched the first 3-4 seasons of TWD, it's a garbage show that gets way more marketing push than it deserves. Having TWD cards forced into the the game feels like an advertisement for a commercial product, not a fun flavor change.
5) Selling these cards online only cuts out the LGS, which are already struggling significantly thanks to the pandemic, and certainly haven't been helped by the advent of arena either. It's a move that feels like it's focused on the short-term gains of "cutting out the middle-man", but at the sacrifice of the long-term health of paper play.
6) These aren't available in all regions, which isn't fair to players in those regions (I'm also lukewarm on this point since I don't think anyone should buy them).
7) If they ever become tournament viable - probably not this batch, but who knows with future batches - not only might that cause a catastrophic price surge, but it also might mean that high-level magic play is being dominated by Mickey Mouse or whatever other cringy IP WotC is shilling for.
8) Probably the most minor note, but I guess Negan has done some bad stuff on the show (beyond the expected murder and whatnot) to where it might be kinda weird to play him as a commander - like imagine if Jeffrey Epstein was a commander. No clue, I finally gave up right about the time he was introduced and at this point I refuse to care about TWD on principle.
9) most importantly, these set a TERRIBLE precedent for what could happen in the future. Tons of crossovers with awful IPs (someone's mentioned fortnite is possible...just shoot me), the potential for legacy-viable cards, or maybe even standard-legal cards, or even just powerful commanders that become must-haves, at extortionary prices that cut out LGSs while they bleed commander players dry. Some of those are more slippery-slopey than others, but the additional IPs is basically confirmed by WotC. If this was a one-and-done product I'd be annoyed but I'd get over it, but I think this is likely to be the beginning of the end for what we once called magic - and I don't say that lightly. I've never felt this way before in almost twenty years of playing, in fact I've usually defended WotC. But this is completely different, and if we don't do something about it, this game is going to go downhill very quickly.
So what did we lose by dropping BaaC? Erayo, oh, what a bummer, what a fun card to play against. Braids, oh, what a bummer, what a fun card to play against. Rofellos, oh great, another expensive reserved list auto-include for mono-green (speaking as someone who still owns one, btw). More importantly, we're talking about a tiny number of cards in the grand scheme of things. Having a whole additional rule and banned list, just so a few people get to play with one questionable card they like is not a worthwhile tradeoff of complexity for payoff.
I'm happy to complain about the RC kowtowing to wotc over this walking dead disaster, but this whinging over BaaC has got to STOP. It's been what, five years? And a whopping THREE CARDS? Holy hell, GET OVER IT.
Plus I'm sure most people wouldn't mind you playing it anyway (outside the companion zone obviously) if you ask in advance.
Also, while it's easy enough now, ten years down the line it might be a lot more confusing to need to learn a barely-used decade-old mechanic just to understand the banlist. And god forbid they add more "banned as X" lists. For simplicity's sake, I think it was absolutely the correct call.
If some famous commander personality like the command zone tried, maybe they'd have SOME traction (although still almost certainly fail). If EDHrec tried, same thing most likely. If WotC DID depose the RC, maybe in the kerfuffle there'd be a chance for someone else to take up the mantle, though it'd still be very unlikely. But randos in the community absolutely no chance ever.
People are upset about the walking dead thing for a lot of reasons, but I think the biggest reason is that how they sell secret lairs is predatory. It's the same BS a lot of video games use, trying to trigger people's FOMO so they'll buy stuff they don't even really want, just because they're worried they won't be able to buy it later, or it'll get way more expensive and they'll wish they had it, etc. When it was just alt versions of existing cards, at least the value of the originals couldn't go up, so it didn't tip people off. With this, it's obvious wotc is preying on commander players specifically. The RC should have banned them to protect the commander community from being taken advantage of.
Plus, I mean, I really don't want to play a version of magic that's getting infested by other franchises. Least of all a crappy one like TWD. If it's silver border I'm usually happy to allow it. But forcing us to accept it is massively overreaching imo. It's the difference between asking to visit and home invasion.
This is yet another reason I hate hate HATE the "fix" wotc imposed on companions btw, it doesn't fix "free" companions at all, because even at 3 more they're still a free card. Just a free crappy card instead of a free good one. If the fix was, say, you lose 5 life at the start of the game if you have a companion, then Lutri probably could have joined commander, and people wouldn't run free companions just because they're free (like the kaheera in creatureless vintage/legacy, although at least it costs a sideboard spot in that format).
but yes, that said, it doesn’t work in commander since it’s functionally a wish, even though it’s very restrictive. But it doesn’t hurt to ask.
-everyone's scale is going to be a bit different - one guys 10 is T&T cEDH, another guys 10 is niv combo, another guys 10 is anything with fetches in it.
-even if everyone got on the same page and we had a perfect scale with clear markers of strength (this deck is exactly a 6, so if you're stronger you're 6+ and if you're weaker you're 5-)...players, especially edh players, are still really bad at gauging how good their decks are. It's really not that easy to be sure either. Some decks look insane one game and awful other games depending on lots of factors. Unless you're playing your deck over and over against a wide variety of decks it's be really hard to get it down a specific number.
Most people say their decks are 7s because narrowing it down more precisely is difficult. Not because the scale is bad. If you make precons 2s, then instead of everyone saying 7, some people will say 4 and some will say 7, and it will still be a total crapshoot which is actually better.
Tbh I rarely have major issues with power level discrepancies, and a power level discussion usually does fine even if it's not very precise - within a reasonable margin of error, multiplayer usually sorts things out.
As long as we’re playing armchair psychologist, you strike me as someone who’s been in the same small town most of their life and can’t relate to anyone in different circumstances. I’m one of the newest arrivals at this LGS, and most people have been playing there for years and years, often with tight-knit groups that sometimes don’t even consider playing with other people. It can be quite difficult already just finding a game when everyone else has a ton of history together, and I’m frequently the odd man out. I’m in no position to make demands or be selective who I play with.
I’ve read your second paragraph a dozen times and it still makes no sense to me. Legacy players mostly have tiered decks - yes, sure. The compromise is not playing legacy - what? How is that a compromise exactly? Players play commander instead of legacy as a refuge from the repetitive nature of legacy and other constructed formats. Players feel the power scale should be non-existent - not remotely? Nearly everyone tries to put a number on their decks in an effort to keep everyone at the same level of power. Is that not what you mean by power scale? I’m Seriously confused.
Don’t get me wrong - I still enjoy it. A lot. Sitting around waiting for a pod sucks, but actually playing is great 90%+ of the time. And I’ve started to make some friends, even among the more obstinate combo players. And I’m certainly not having problems with my win%. But it’s frustrating to have games end in such a deflating way sometimes, and for players to be seemingly unaware or unwilling to remove those cards even when no one seems to like them, because they think they’re supposed to play them. But I still look forward to commander night(s) every time it comes around, 100%. And while I do ***** and moan about the LGS environment, it has the perk of endless variety. It’s really not that bad, I’m just disappointed that it could be better so easily and isn’t. So you can stop with the nonsense psychoanalysis routine.
I’d hardly call it “my group“, it’s clearly been going on for quite a while and I have Almost no control over It. I do try to change people’s minds when I think it’s appropriate, but it’s a rotating cast of 30+ people, so anything I do is pretty much a drop in the bucket.
Hahaha, seriously? That's wild. I've never seen anyone do either of those things, not in any commander game, prerelease, or limited tournament I've played in over the years. I definitely get a little salty sometimes (hell, my opponent last night was quite a salt-monster after I beat him) but that's mind-blowing to me. Worst I ever saw, that I can recall, was my opponent stand up and slam his hands on the wall when I (admittedly rather dickishly) got him on a rules technicality during a prerelease. He still won anyway...I probably deserved it.
How does one compromise in an LGS environment? If my opponent plays a combo deck, I have essentially no control over that. For that matter, if I wanted to play a nasty deck (which I sometimes do on accident, usually followed by apologies and a deck switch), they wouldn't have any control over that either.
One of the biggest differences in the mentality between standard/modern/legacy/vintage/KBPTL/etc is that commander was built on acknowledging accountability for your opponents' fun. Yes, compromise would be ideal, and that's something that's possible with an established group, but in an LGS environment that's not really an option.
Part of what annoys me is that, for the majority of these players, they don't seem to WANT to play combo. They just put it in to compete with the other decks doing the same. After a game ends in a combo, rarely does anyone actually seem pleased, even the person who did it. The player gleefully assembling a crazy combo I don't begrudge, that can be a fantastic ending to the game, but when the game has gotten less fun for everyone because of the increased power level I think we've made a wrong step somewhere.
If you thought pubstomping WAS fun, though, would that make it OK? You'd still be taking responsibility for your own fun, wouldn't you?
It's really convenient when the things you find fun is also what will make the game fun for your opponents - that's great, genuinely. But what about when the things you find fun AREN'T fun for your opponents? I don't think taking responsibility SOLELY for your own fun is enough, you have to also keep your opponents' experiences in mind.
Not that this seems to apply to my meta though - nobody really seems to enjoy combo, they just do it anyway to stay competitive.
So your solution is basically just to have the exact same playgroup situation that you do. Very helpful.
Two things:
1) A lot of people aren't playing dedicated combo decks, just decks that happen to have a combo or two in them. While I don't mind a wild janky 4-card combo, especially if I haven't seen it before, when someone sticks DEN and peregrine drake into their blink deck because one is a powerful etb enabler and one is a powerful etb, it's still a pretty boring way for the game to end - and even more frustrating in some ways, because at least the fast combo deck will end a short game in a boring way and you can quickly recalibrate. The accidental combo deck ends a long and interesting game in a boring way.
2) I've had many different groups I play with come and go over the years, and that's not necessarily a cure-all either since even friends are going to have disagreements about how they want the game to go. It can help. But I'm not going to stay in one place my whole life just to avoid new playgroups. I'm still relatively new to this country, and the few friends here I do have don't play magic, so I don't have a ton of alternatives to playing at an LGS, and whoever/whatever shows up, shows up. We can have the power level conversation and that might head off the cEDH combo decks, but the blink deck that happens to have a combo is probably not.
I find combo a very unsatisfying way to end a game - especially when it's the same boring, well-trod combos that have been winning games for years and years. A game that was interesting and unique ending yet again to high tide palinchron is extremely frustrating imo.
Playing a game of commander is like telling a story. A combo win is the equivalent of "rocks fall, everyone dies".
Great, do it somewhere else.
Great, do it somewhere else.
That's exactly the logic I hear from players at my LGS. And you know what I think to myself? If you don't like long games, GO PLAY ANOTHER FORMAT. When I started playing, 2+ hour games were the norm, sometimes as long as 5 hours or more. And we loved it.
Part of this is the fault of commander becoming too popular. More people means that it's no longer a specialized format exclusively for people who want a long epic game. Personally I think the life total should be lowered to encourage non-combo strategies, but that's another conversation. There's a multitude of factors pushing commander more and more competitive, few of them intentional. But intentional or not, the ones who benefit from it are the cEDH players, so they receive the brunt of my furious rage.
Whoever first thought up [insert combo/deck here] has my respect - although I still don't want to play with them. The million imitators? No, I think it's boring as hell. Plagiarism isn't a work of art. It's a competitive necessity, but art it ain't. And while I understand people netdecking for standard, I find netdecking for commander to be nothing short of pathetic. And I think the only people who would find it "awesome" are those too green to know any better.
I get why new players are impressed by expensive cards, and I know that's part of the allure of playing these decks. I'm not complaining when people are impressed by my collection, it's kinda fun. I don't blame them, it's nobody's fault, really. But that doesn't mean it's not contributing to the degradation of the format.
A cEDH player is exactly the kind of person I'd expect would make a metaphor involving katanas. No offense.
That experience has not been mine, nor most people's from what I can tell.
I don't think it'll ever go extinct by any stretch. But the line will be less and less well-defined. Most people at my LGS are still playing at a relatively low power level and I don't think that'll change - thank god for the reserved list sometimes. But will change, and is changing, is the culture. cEDH is less and less a separate format now than it was a few years ago, or a few years before that. The new players aspire to play at the cEDH table, held back only by budget and skill (skill in cedh, lol that must have been a typo). cEDH decks are more and more likely to join in at non-cEDH tables. Because there aren't "cEDH decks" and "everything else" anymore, it's a slow gradation of power as people strive to push their decks to the lofty plateau of perceived cEDH greatness. Some people self-limit, to be sure, but that percentage is getting lower and lower with every year. And wotc doesn't exactly help when they print obnoxious commanders every set, making it easier and easier to stretch the limits of what power level is acceptable.
For someone called cranky, I am out-cranky-ing the hell out of you right now.
When I first started playing commander, playing any infinite combos was tryhard behavior. Now, if I polled the players at my LGS I doubt a single one doesn't have a deck with a combo wincon in it somewhere. I've repeatedly heard people say that they need to have a combo somewhere in the deck to make it viable, and it makes me cringe. When I lose a game, a solid 70% of the time it's from a combo. That used to be almost unheard of. And I know it's not just me because everyone else I've talked to online has seen the format shift more competitive as well. Posts about someone's once-casual group shifting closer to cEDH are commonplace.
How much is this the fault of cEDH as compared to the existence of online resources or wotc's power creep? Hard to say, they all contribute. Is the blurring of the line intentional subversion on cEDH's part - are they "out to get [the format]"? Most likely not. But it's still happening, and cEDH players sure aren't in a hurry to prevent it. They want to talk about their format, the same as everyone else does, and this is the unavoidable result. All the time I'll see people ask for help, get answered by a cEDH player with cEDH advice, and they'll gobble it up because they lack the experience to understand the distinction. I see it online, I see it in person. I see the reverence new players have for the local cEDH players' decks, and how they wish they could build decks like them.
Keeping a casual format casual may well be an impossible task, and one day the difference between commander and cEDH may well be almost indistinguishable. They're getting closer together every day. Of course some people will always keep the flame alive, so the two formats will never truly be one, but mainstream commander is constantly in a slide towards more and more competitive - slow, yes, but inexorable. And cEDH will always be happy to receive the benefits of that, whistling a jaunty tune and pretending that it's just a coincidence.