But you never do get Dust Bowl mana if you're on the draw
Him: Tomb/Winter Orb
You: Dryad Arbor
Him: Rishadan Port
You: Dust Bowl; at end of turn he taps your Bowl.
Him: untap port, play ghost town, tap down arbor
You: untap either land, play stronghold.
Him: rinse/repeat.
You: Untap 1 land, play another: but that never gives you 3 mana.
On the play however, he can't tap you fast enough. The match goes 4-1.
Sorry, typo: that was supposed to be against 15 (Bitterblossom).
Also: 6 vs. 7 is a draw, right?
If 7 ever gets Dust Bowl mana, he can sac arbor to kill port, which leaves a race between a 1/1 and recurring the sac'd arbor to kill it. 6 on the other hand can only untap 1 land (plus ghost town). That land has to be port to keep 7 off DB mana. Thus, neither can ever get to the point where the only land they untap is their arbor to kill. In fact, I'm not sure how 6 can win any match, seeing as he can only untap either port (his stall condition) or Arbor (his win condition) each turn...am I missing something?
@mogg
re #14: There's no way for him to stop me from Hex+Depths. I lead with Depths, then either A) he plays urborg, so I play Mishra's factory and use his urborg (all lands, not just ones you control, become swamps) for the black mana. or B) he doesn't play urborg, so I do and play hexmage. I said that in my post.
re #16: I play turn 1 urborg, his ideal play is turn 1 nexus, using the black from my urborg to cast encroach, taking my Dark Depths. I play factory/hexmage (I still have urborg). I play vesuva on factory, and activate the other and swing for 4, then 5 until he can use the megaliths, which isn't until he has hellbent.
re #21 (you): If I lead with Dark depths, you have to either A) vesuva that, or B) pithing Hexmage. You can't use Vesuva on Urborg, unless you pithing the hexmage, and I've already played my hexmage (which is the only time I lay down urborg here, so you can't stop hexmage using Vesuva). I think you assumed I made the wrong play and laid down Urborg first.
@knobbodi
re #9: Ah, forgot that Orzhova came in untapped. My bad.
re #11: I can attack for 6 each turn. Urborg taps to animate factory, Dark depths taps (it's a swamp from urborg) to animate vesuva-factory. So intead of going to 11, then 6, then 1, he goes to 10, then 4, then -2.
re# 19: I think that's the same thing as in 11, where I race faster than you thought.
@Wham
I must have been looking at the main chart or something, I thought I saw 4 in my points against you.
@Whoever's chart we're supposed to be paying attention to
Both charts have me at like 52, but I have me at about 74 (I was at 76, but knoboddi pointed out turn 2 Energy Field)
I think I gave good enough logic on each match (sans Field)...
05 - IOput - Vesuva is Tech
Dark Depths / Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth / Vampire Hexmage / Vesuva / Volrath's Stronghold
When he’s on the play, I can trade legends with every land he plays except his Vesuva. If he starts on Vesuva, I can play urborg, which force him to play his copy or I can Dark Depths for Marit Lage. At the end of the game, he ends up with either a Stronghold or a Vesuva, and I have a Factory. When I’m on the play, I can play, the same thing happens, but slightly more intricately. Because of all the legends, neither player can force a win, because both players can force the draw.
2-2 Draw
06 - Draco9 - Winter Ghost in the Ancient Port...what the heck is this Dryad doing here?
Rishadan Port / Ancient Tomb / Dryad Arbor / Ghost Town / Winter Orb
With me on the play, he has no way to stop turn 2 Marit. On the Draw…it takes a turn longer. I can untap 1 land and play 1 land, with another land from the turn before. Any 2=hexmage game.
6-0 (my favor)
08 - Personman - Dear Foil, Screw You. Sincerly, Boseiju.
Beacon of Destruction / Boseiju, Who Shelters All / Dwarven Hold / Mercadian Bazaar / Maze of Ith
The Maze keeps my best guy down, and the Beacon comes down just enough to make sure that, if he plays ideally, he stops me in my tracks at 2. I actually had to simulate this round like 4 times before I found a way for him to win on the draw (too bad I tried so hard). On the play however, he’s just faster, and it’s clear.
0-6 (his favor)
09 - VikingMetal4L - Energy Field is tech
Energy Field / Creeping Tar Pit / Orzhova, the Church of Deals / Dimir Aqueduct / Azorius Chancery
Yes, Energy Field is, in fact, Tech.
0-6 (his favor)
10 - bmh
Mishra's Factory / Nezumi Shortfang / The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale / Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth / Vesuva
We can both force a draw, meaning neither deck can win. Same shtick as my mirror match, only easier to calculate, because he doesn’t have Hexmage to factor in.
2-2 Draw
11 - BluffCityPanther
pendlehaven / rishadan port / inkmoth nexus / inkmoth nexus / pithing needle
He pithing needles the Hexmage. Now that that’s out of the way: I can’t race him by actually activating Dark Depths, so that’s just a swamp while Urborg is in play. I can race him because I have 3 creatures that do a 10th of the damage necessary to his 2. He can’t activate both Nexuses and Pendlehaven, and he can’t use pendelhaven on both attacks and blocks. If he tries to be defensive, he can’t attack, so I can just attack with 1 Factory, pump with the other and go 3/3 vs his 2/3. My factory will get 2 counters and his nexus will die. The process repeats with the other factory attacking and the first one pumping. Then I still have hexmage.
6-0 (my favor)
12 -BronYAur
Gemstone Caverns / Inkmoth Nexus / Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth / Dark Depths / Vampire Hexmage
This is my least favorite adaptation of this build. The other mirror at least could fight discard and counters better than mine with the Stronghold (whereas I just have to switch to beatdown), but I’m really not sure what Caverns is supposed to do here. However, this being a legend mirror, it’s a draw. The only advantage I have is Vesuva, but he can negotiate it so I never get the combo out anyway. The only advantage he has is the evasion on Nexus. Since my advantage gets me nowhere, I just copy Inkmoth with Vesuva, and forcing a draw since I have no mana to activate my factory, and he has nothing to do with his Caverns (luck counter or not).
2-2 Draw
13 - FuriouslySleepingIdea
Crucible of Worlds / Lake of the dead / Gods' eye, gate to the reikai / Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth / Mystifying Maze
I play turn 1 Urborg. His can never resolve his, he has no Swamps, so he has no Lake. If he uses my urborg to play God’s eye as a swamp, I play dark depths and kill him before he has Maze mana. If he plays Maze as a swamp, I play depths and kill him before he can get his maze back with crucible.
6-0 (my favor)
15 - Catmurderer - Sour Flower
Bitterblossom / Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth / Rishadon Port / Sheltered Valley / Spawning Pool
If he drops Urborg, I use his to get me combo off. If he doesn’t, I use mine. Even if he manages to get one extra faerie he doesn’t have to block with, I vesuva his Sheltered valley to negate that. My Merit+vesuva trades with his Bitterblossom+valley. His port trades with my Factory. Sigh, another stalemate.
2-2 Draw
16 - Shogun17 - Discard/Junk
Encroach / Badlands / Pendelhaven / Inkmoth Nexus / Keldon Megaliths
Encroach kills my combo, but if I play T1: Urborg, T2:Factory+Hexmage, Turn 3: Vesuva as Factory, Turn 4: Activate 1 factory, pump with the other, I can win the race on the play. On the draw, he kills my Urborg, then has a faster race, and even if I vesuva and block, he can megaliths me to death while I sit there tapping my lonely Factory.
3-3 Split
17 - Hinotama - Shelldock
Shelldock Isle / Emrakul, the Aeons Torn / Bazaar of Baghdad / Island / Rishadian Port
On the play, my guy swings before his guy comes in. On the draw, his guy comes in after mine, but he takes an extra turn (curse you!) and Annihilates my everything (CURSE YOU!).
3-3 Split
18 - WhammWhamme -
Rishadan Port / Rishadan Port / Boros Garrison / Inkmoth Nexus / Ajani Vengeant
On the play I win. On the Draw he can’t stick Ajani without blocking with his Nexus, and if he takes the time to do that, I can use my Vesuva on the Port, to Port on the Garrison or Nexus, depending.
6-0 (my favor)
19 - ~Tilde~ - Yo dawg, I heard you liked Blinkmoths...
Pendelhaven / Inkmoth Nexus / Blinkmoth Nexus / City of Traitors / Pithing Needle
He Piths my Hexmage either game. I can race him with my 3 threats unless he blocks and Pendlehavens. If he stays back to block I attack with one factory, pump with the other. If he assembles his double pump for a 3/4, I can just sit back and tick counters off Dark Depths. On the draw, he would win the race, so I block his inkmoth with my vesuva-inkmoth, and even though his creature wins that fight, it has a -1/-1 counter on it, and can never be safely activated again. He can’t outpace me in regular damage, because I have both factory and hexmage. If he sits back to block I use Dark depths.
6-0 (my favor)
20 - Parsley - Frosty
Saprazzan Cove / Saprazzan Skerry / Mishra's Factory / Mishra's Factory / Frost Titan
Frosty doesn’t actually show up until turn 4, 1 turn too late, and Factory can’t even block to stall a turn.
6-0 (my favor)
21 - Mogg
Inkmoth Nexus / Mishra's Factory / Pithing Needle / Rishadan Port / Vesuva
This felt like a hybrid deck, as it had the Inkmoths, Needles, Ports and Vesuvas I’d been fighting all day, as well as the only other Factory-Vesuva combo; but had no big splashy build around. What ends up happening is that he has no way to stop me from casting Hexmage. Once I have him out, I can win races unless he keeps back to block. Even if he attacks with Nexus and keeps Factory back to block, I can use my double factory to either race or trade then race with hexmage and the other factory. If he uses Vesuva to kill Urborg, Each of us can only use 1 manland a turn. He can’t race me with my Hexmage+Factory, and I can’t attack though his factory with its own pump effect because I can’t use my own. This was a pretty interesting draw.
2-2 Draw
Including the matchlisting already done by others, I ended with…
10 Full Wins (6*10=60)
2 Splits (2*2=6…these are worth 2 right?)
5 Draws (5*2=10)
3 Losses (0)
That totals to 74 points for my first 5CB tourney. Unless I’m wrong. : P
NOTE: I differ from Whammwamme on our match, but I can’t see how he sticks Ajani.
LEss stupid: Last stand week: players start the game with 1 life.
This is prettymuch the same as my On the Brink one (5 life). It would just be really funny to try to build a deck to win as soon as possible, but not on the first 2 turns, only it's really easy to kill your opponent, so you have to slow down on purpose.
The rule is in place to prevent the otherwise strategically sound strategy of submitting a deck which tends to win half its games per match. Since such a deck can count on winning at least half its games, and will tend to steal a few matches, it will generally score in the top third of decks.
I think I'm sensing a disparity in peoples' understandings of what the scoring system is.
Honestly, I think 2 decks that each win on the play is more fun/interesting than 2 decks that can force the draw. I think 2-2 for double draw and 3-3 for split match encourages fewer deus ex machina tactics that force draws.
So, I'm looking at the grid and the rules, is a split match (1 win, 1 lose) worth 2 or 3 points. If 2, why are there 3s in the grid? If 3, why do the rules say not?
Also, your deck can't be able to win until after your opponent has completed 2 full turns, correct? Same with moving multiple cards from hand? So you can't turn 1 Duress, turn 2 Duress again if you are on the play?
This isn't very fast, but I think this is the only 1 card use: Chameleon Colossus
It first breaks 1 million at 72 land. Sure you could heartbeat/gauntlet/candelabra etc. to get all kinds of more, and all kinds of faster, but I'm more of a fan of doing 67,108,864 damage with 96-99 forests and a 4 drop.
Both of those sound fine for me. I'm fine with prettymuch any restrictions, because everyone is still on a level playing field. How about BAN month? Each week for 4-5 weeks, nobody can use an card (other than a basic land) used in any deck that month. The first week would be normal, but each week we'd be seeing more and more creative decks due to the staples being out. Or maybe On the Brink week: everyone starts at 5 health. Counterspells and fast decks will be bigger than big splashy finishes or board control. Contrarily, we could do 100 health week, where those decks would shine.
Him: Tomb/Winter Orb
You: Dryad Arbor
Him: Rishadan Port
You: Dust Bowl; at end of turn he taps your Bowl.
Him: untap port, play ghost town, tap down arbor
You: untap either land, play stronghold.
Him: rinse/repeat.
You: Untap 1 land, play another: but that never gives you 3 mana.
On the play however, he can't tap you fast enough. The match goes 4-1.
Also: 6 vs. 7 is a draw, right?
If 7 ever gets Dust Bowl mana, he can sac arbor to kill port, which leaves a race between a 1/1 and recurring the sac'd arbor to kill it. 6 on the other hand can only untap 1 land (plus ghost town). That land has to be port to keep 7 off DB mana. Thus, neither can ever get to the point where the only land they untap is their arbor to kill. In fact, I'm not sure how 6 can win any match, seeing as he can only untap either port (his stall condition) or Arbor (his win condition) each turn...am I missing something?
re #14: There's no way for him to stop me from Hex+Depths. I lead with Depths, then either A) he plays urborg, so I play Mishra's factory and use his urborg (all lands, not just ones you control, become swamps) for the black mana. or B) he doesn't play urborg, so I do and play hexmage. I said that in my post.
re #16: I play turn 1 urborg, his ideal play is turn 1 nexus, using the black from my urborg to cast encroach, taking my Dark Depths. I play factory/hexmage (I still have urborg). I play vesuva on factory, and activate the other and swing for 4, then 5 until he can use the megaliths, which isn't until he has hellbent.
re #21 (you): If I lead with Dark depths, you have to either A) vesuva that, or B) pithing Hexmage. You can't use Vesuva on Urborg, unless you pithing the hexmage, and I've already played my hexmage (which is the only time I lay down urborg here, so you can't stop hexmage using Vesuva). I think you assumed I made the wrong play and laid down Urborg first.
re #9: Ah, forgot that Orzhova came in untapped. My bad.
re #11: I can attack for 6 each turn. Urborg taps to animate factory, Dark depths taps (it's a swamp from urborg) to animate vesuva-factory. So intead of going to 11, then 6, then 1, he goes to 10, then 4, then -2.
re# 19: I think that's the same thing as in 11, where I race faster than you thought.
@Wham
I must have been looking at the main chart or something, I thought I saw 4 in my points against you.
@Whoever's chart we're supposed to be paying attention to
Both charts have me at like 52, but I have me at about 74 (I was at 76, but knoboddi pointed out turn 2 Energy Field)
I think I gave good enough logic on each match (sans Field)...
Dark Depths / Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth / Vampire Hexmage / Vesuva / Volrath's Stronghold
When he’s on the play, I can trade legends with every land he plays except his Vesuva. If he starts on Vesuva, I can play urborg, which force him to play his copy or I can Dark Depths for Marit Lage. At the end of the game, he ends up with either a Stronghold or a Vesuva, and I have a Factory. When I’m on the play, I can play, the same thing happens, but slightly more intricately. Because of all the legends, neither player can force a win, because both players can force the draw.
2-2 Draw
06 - Draco9 - Winter Ghost in the Ancient Port...what the heck is this Dryad doing here?
Rishadan Port / Ancient Tomb / Dryad Arbor / Ghost Town / Winter Orb
With me on the play, he has no way to stop turn 2 Marit. On the Draw…it takes a turn longer. I can untap 1 land and play 1 land, with another land from the turn before. Any 2=hexmage game.
6-0 (my favor)
08 - Personman - Dear Foil, Screw You. Sincerly, Boseiju.
Beacon of Destruction / Boseiju, Who Shelters All / Dwarven Hold / Mercadian Bazaar / Maze of Ith
The Maze keeps my best guy down, and the Beacon comes down just enough to make sure that, if he plays ideally, he stops me in my tracks at 2. I actually had to simulate this round like 4 times before I found a way for him to win on the draw (too bad I tried so hard). On the play however, he’s just faster, and it’s clear.
0-6 (his favor)
09 - VikingMetal4L - Energy Field is tech
Energy Field / Creeping Tar Pit / Orzhova, the Church of Deals / Dimir Aqueduct / Azorius Chancery
Yes, Energy Field is, in fact, Tech.
0-6 (his favor)
10 - bmh
Mishra's Factory / Nezumi Shortfang / The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale / Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth / Vesuva
We can both force a draw, meaning neither deck can win. Same shtick as my mirror match, only easier to calculate, because he doesn’t have Hexmage to factor in.
2-2 Draw
11 - BluffCityPanther
pendlehaven / rishadan port / inkmoth nexus / inkmoth nexus / pithing needle
He pithing needles the Hexmage. Now that that’s out of the way: I can’t race him by actually activating Dark Depths, so that’s just a swamp while Urborg is in play. I can race him because I have 3 creatures that do a 10th of the damage necessary to his 2. He can’t activate both Nexuses and Pendlehaven, and he can’t use pendelhaven on both attacks and blocks. If he tries to be defensive, he can’t attack, so I can just attack with 1 Factory, pump with the other and go 3/3 vs his 2/3. My factory will get 2 counters and his nexus will die. The process repeats with the other factory attacking and the first one pumping. Then I still have hexmage.
6-0 (my favor)
12 -BronYAur
Gemstone Caverns / Inkmoth Nexus / Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth / Dark Depths / Vampire Hexmage
This is my least favorite adaptation of this build. The other mirror at least could fight discard and counters better than mine with the Stronghold (whereas I just have to switch to beatdown), but I’m really not sure what Caverns is supposed to do here. However, this being a legend mirror, it’s a draw. The only advantage I have is Vesuva, but he can negotiate it so I never get the combo out anyway. The only advantage he has is the evasion on Nexus. Since my advantage gets me nowhere, I just copy Inkmoth with Vesuva, and forcing a draw since I have no mana to activate my factory, and he has nothing to do with his Caverns (luck counter or not).
2-2 Draw
13 - FuriouslySleepingIdea
Crucible of Worlds / Lake of the dead / Gods' eye, gate to the reikai / Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth / Mystifying Maze
I play turn 1 Urborg. His can never resolve his, he has no Swamps, so he has no Lake. If he uses my urborg to play God’s eye as a swamp, I play dark depths and kill him before he has Maze mana. If he plays Maze as a swamp, I play depths and kill him before he can get his maze back with crucible.
6-0 (my favor)
15 - Catmurderer - Sour Flower
Bitterblossom / Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth / Rishadon Port / Sheltered Valley / Spawning Pool
If he drops Urborg, I use his to get me combo off. If he doesn’t, I use mine. Even if he manages to get one extra faerie he doesn’t have to block with, I vesuva his Sheltered valley to negate that. My Merit+vesuva trades with his Bitterblossom+valley. His port trades with my Factory. Sigh, another stalemate.
2-2 Draw
16 - Shogun17 - Discard/Junk
Encroach / Badlands / Pendelhaven / Inkmoth Nexus / Keldon Megaliths
Encroach kills my combo, but if I play T1: Urborg, T2:Factory+Hexmage, Turn 3: Vesuva as Factory, Turn 4: Activate 1 factory, pump with the other, I can win the race on the play. On the draw, he kills my Urborg, then has a faster race, and even if I vesuva and block, he can megaliths me to death while I sit there tapping my lonely Factory.
3-3 Split
17 - Hinotama - Shelldock
Shelldock Isle / Emrakul, the Aeons Torn / Bazaar of Baghdad / Island / Rishadian Port
On the play, my guy swings before his guy comes in. On the draw, his guy comes in after mine, but he takes an extra turn (curse you!) and Annihilates my everything (CURSE YOU!).
3-3 Split
18 - WhammWhamme -
Rishadan Port / Rishadan Port / Boros Garrison / Inkmoth Nexus / Ajani Vengeant
On the play I win. On the Draw he can’t stick Ajani without blocking with his Nexus, and if he takes the time to do that, I can use my Vesuva on the Port, to Port on the Garrison or Nexus, depending.
6-0 (my favor)
19 - ~Tilde~ - Yo dawg, I heard you liked Blinkmoths...
Pendelhaven / Inkmoth Nexus / Blinkmoth Nexus / City of Traitors / Pithing Needle
He Piths my Hexmage either game. I can race him with my 3 threats unless he blocks and Pendlehavens. If he stays back to block I attack with one factory, pump with the other. If he assembles his double pump for a 3/4, I can just sit back and tick counters off Dark Depths. On the draw, he would win the race, so I block his inkmoth with my vesuva-inkmoth, and even though his creature wins that fight, it has a -1/-1 counter on it, and can never be safely activated again. He can’t outpace me in regular damage, because I have both factory and hexmage. If he sits back to block I use Dark depths.
6-0 (my favor)
20 - Parsley - Frosty
Saprazzan Cove / Saprazzan Skerry / Mishra's Factory / Mishra's Factory / Frost Titan
Frosty doesn’t actually show up until turn 4, 1 turn too late, and Factory can’t even block to stall a turn.
6-0 (my favor)
21 - Mogg
Inkmoth Nexus / Mishra's Factory / Pithing Needle / Rishadan Port / Vesuva
This felt like a hybrid deck, as it had the Inkmoths, Needles, Ports and Vesuvas I’d been fighting all day, as well as the only other Factory-Vesuva combo; but had no big splashy build around. What ends up happening is that he has no way to stop me from casting Hexmage. Once I have him out, I can win races unless he keeps back to block. Even if he attacks with Nexus and keeps Factory back to block, I can use my double factory to either race or trade then race with hexmage and the other factory. If he uses Vesuva to kill Urborg, Each of us can only use 1 manland a turn. He can’t race me with my Hexmage+Factory, and I can’t attack though his factory with its own pump effect because I can’t use my own. This was a pretty interesting draw.
2-2 Draw
Including the matchlisting already done by others, I ended with…
10 Full Wins (6*10=60)
2 Splits (2*2=6…these are worth 2 right?)
5 Draws (5*2=10)
3 Losses (0)
That totals to 74 points for my first 5CB tourney. Unless I’m wrong. : P
NOTE: I differ from Whammwamme on our match, but I can’t see how he sticks Ajani.
This is prettymuch the same as my On the Brink one (5 life). It would just be really funny to try to build a deck to win as soon as possible, but not on the first 2 turns, only it's really easy to kill your opponent, so you have to slow down on purpose.
I think I'm sensing a disparity in peoples' understandings of what the scoring system is.
Honestly, I think 2 decks that each win on the play is more fun/interesting than 2 decks that can force the draw. I think 2-2 for double draw and 3-3 for split match encourages fewer deus ex machina tactics that force draws.
Also, your deck can't be able to win until after your opponent has completed 2 full turns, correct? Same with moving multiple cards from hand? So you can't turn 1 Duress, turn 2 Duress again if you are on the play?
It first breaks 1 million at 72 land. Sure you could heartbeat/gauntlet/candelabra etc. to get all kinds of more, and all kinds of faster, but I'm more of a fan of doing 67,108,864 damage with 96-99 forests and a 4 drop.