Yeah, that's my thought for sure. I'm a little on budget (95% not budget, but 5 cards I'm just not playing competitively to bother with, so one of those is now Narset.
I have to say, I really, really wish Dovin, Hand of Control was playable, but that U/W mana symbol...
@yriel
RE: RiP
- I do think Dredge is nearly unwinnable without it.
- Living End, we basically have Chalice, but if we have RiP, we also disrupt them very effectively along a second line of attack.
- Whir Prison, what you noted effectively stops their wincons. This gives us an alternate wincon of milling them out, with Displacer-TKS comobo, to force them to draw out faster than us, while we pick apart their relevant cards inside the draw step. I've beaten Lantern and Whir this way. Also, many Whir play Thopter-Sword combo, which is best beaten with RiP.
- Storm and Hollow One, it just gives us another prison piece, and they are the aggro deck in those matches, so our job is to lock out their game plan, then beat them.
Humans are ~6% of the meta, graveyard decks in total are about 18% of the meta. Dredge and The Rock are as popular as Humans by itself. But you are correct, I would absolutely want enough answers to Humans and Spirits, which is why 3 Tocatli is probably correct right now.
RE: Tocatli vs Torpor Orb
Test it out. I'm just trying to share with you why we moved from Orb to Tocatli when it was released.
@yriel
Yeah, I don't know that we need Stony for if it doesn't help a very bad match. I'm really moving towards your Crackdowns, especially if Scales is in fact already at least even.
RiP is our only fast out to Dredge, and it helps against a wide variety of decks (I don't think it comes in against Phoenix). I know a lot of people don't like it against BG Midrange, but Kalitas, Goyf, Scooze all need the graveyard. Also good against Scales, Storm, Hollow One, Living End and even Whir Prison to stop them recycling lands and artifacts.
I think Tocatli is there primarily for two reasons: it is a creature that blocks and attacks if needed, and as a creature it can be protected by Displacer.
RE: Spirits: they have moved to 3 Damping Sphere for Tron and combo, and Hurkyl's Recall is better against Whir and Scales.
We've been having a conversation on the Spirits thread that Stony Silence isn't that great right now. It is valuable for Affinity, but that deck is much less present, and Hardened Scales, which is actually increasing in play, and Artifact Prison Control, where Whir is much less impacted by Stony than Lantern was. It is also good against Tron (they have a number of important activated artifacts, but it doesn't stop natural Tron or impact Wurmcoil), but maybe the play there is shutting down searching (I like Aven Mindcensor, as it also hits Titan decks pretty hard), and using land destruction.
I don't mind Consulate Crackdown, but Spirits can run Hurkyl's Recall as the much better card in those matches, since it returns them to their hand at instant speed for 2 mana. Crackdown does exile your opponent's artifacts, so that is quite good, its just that 5 mana is so much and I wish it was a Sorcery and not an Enchantment. Then again, that is just fine against Whir Prison and Lantern, it just is quite slow versus Hardened Scales and mostly worthless against Tron.
Maybe the key is to rethink boarding for Affinity/Scales, and make more use of Declaration in Stone, Settle the Wreckage, and Ratchet Bomb (Affinity/Scales, Whir) for those matches, with Crackdown added in (for Affinity/Scales, Whir) for the mid to late game blowout.
Thoughts?
Current sideboard 10 staples:
3 Rest in Peace
2 Declaration in Stone
2 Tocatli Honor Guard
1 Worship
1 Settle the Wreckage
1 Ratchet Bomb
Possible additional sideboard cards:
+1 Worship
+1 Tocatli Honor Guard
1 Karn, Scion of Urza
1 Endbringer
2 Stony Silence
1-2 Crackdown
1 Cast Out
1-2 Damping Sphere (Tron, but also becomes another Thalia.)
The deck is definitely decision-intensive and you are right, the correct Turn 1-2 play is complex, as often there are multiple good options, so which one is best remains.
Explosion Zone is interesting, but it is going to eat up a lot of mana to get there. You'll need 5 lands out, including itself, to pump it for 2 (not including SSG), which is not insignificant and not fast. On the other hand, against Humans, Elves, Spirits and the like, 1 or 2 is probably what we want anyway, if we are still alive. I don't know, I think it needs testing, but it is definitely worth testing.
I would also expect 3 Damping Sphere and 2 Disdainful Stroke in SpookyGoose's deck to make it solid against Tron, as much as we can be, and the card I think I fear the most in Whir Prison is Bridge and/or Whir into Bridge or EE, and Stony only stops EE. Sideboard, they can bring in Torpor Orb, which also ignored Stony.
Disdainful Stroke is probably okay against Whir, but mostly because removal is bad, but a deck with 4 Thalia + 4 Deputy should do pretty well against Whir.
@SpookyGoose
Results from GP Bilbao also interesting, and I don't know the lists of those Spirit decks, but I'm betting they ran 2-3 Stony and if they did, it didn't seem to matter much...
"Spirits went:
5-0 versus Mill (100%)
3-10 versus Hardened Scales (23.1%)
2-9 versus Affinity (18.2%)"
It makes good use of Thalia and Deputy, recognizes that Kira is important for protecting them. I'm not wholly sure on 3 Captain\1 Copter, but it is understandable, as it makes all the weaker creatures better and does filter. It loses the boom of CoCo and the draw engine of Obsession, but it has huge threat density, excellent removal, and the most important non-Spirits.
I am amazed he got away with ZERO Stony Silence, but maybe that was a reasonable call in this meta, especially just going with 3 Damping Sphere for Tron, Combo, but also Phoenix.
I have to say, I really, really wish Dovin, Hand of Control was playable, but that U/W mana symbol...
Curious to see how the meta shapes up.
RE: RiP
- I do think Dredge is nearly unwinnable without it.
- Living End, we basically have Chalice, but if we have RiP, we also disrupt them very effectively along a second line of attack.
- Whir Prison, what you noted effectively stops their wincons. This gives us an alternate wincon of milling them out, with Displacer-TKS comobo, to force them to draw out faster than us, while we pick apart their relevant cards inside the draw step. I've beaten Lantern and Whir this way. Also, many Whir play Thopter-Sword combo, which is best beaten with RiP.
- Storm and Hollow One, it just gives us another prison piece, and they are the aggro deck in those matches, so our job is to lock out their game plan, then beat them.
Humans are ~6% of the meta, graveyard decks in total are about 18% of the meta. Dredge and The Rock are as popular as Humans by itself. But you are correct, I would absolutely want enough answers to Humans and Spirits, which is why 3 Tocatli is probably correct right now.
RE: Tocatli vs Torpor Orb
Test it out. I'm just trying to share with you why we moved from Orb to Tocatli when it was released.
Yeah, I don't know that we need Stony for if it doesn't help a very bad match. I'm really moving towards your Crackdowns, especially if Scales is in fact already at least even.
RiP is our only fast out to Dredge, and it helps against a wide variety of decks (I don't think it comes in against Phoenix). I know a lot of people don't like it against BG Midrange, but Kalitas, Goyf, Scooze all need the graveyard. Also good against Scales, Storm, Hollow One, Living End and even Whir Prison to stop them recycling lands and artifacts.
I think Tocatli is there primarily for two reasons: it is a creature that blocks and attacks if needed, and as a creature it can be protected by Displacer.
RE: Spirits: they have moved to 3 Damping Sphere for Tron and combo, and Hurkyl's Recall is better against Whir and Scales.
I don't mind Consulate Crackdown, but Spirits can run Hurkyl's Recall as the much better card in those matches, since it returns them to their hand at instant speed for 2 mana. Crackdown does exile your opponent's artifacts, so that is quite good, its just that 5 mana is so much and I wish it was a Sorcery and not an Enchantment. Then again, that is just fine against Whir Prison and Lantern, it just is quite slow versus Hardened Scales and mostly worthless against Tron.
Maybe the key is to rethink boarding for Affinity/Scales, and make more use of Declaration in Stone, Settle the Wreckage, and Ratchet Bomb (Affinity/Scales, Whir) for those matches, with Crackdown added in (for Affinity/Scales, Whir) for the mid to late game blowout.
Thoughts?
Current sideboard 10 staples:
3 Rest in Peace
2 Declaration in Stone
2 Tocatli Honor Guard
1 Worship
1 Settle the Wreckage
1 Ratchet Bomb
Possible additional sideboard cards:
+1 Worship
+1 Tocatli Honor Guard
1 Karn, Scion of Urza
1 Endbringer
2 Stony Silence
1-2 Crackdown
1 Cast Out
1-2 Damping Sphere (Tron, but also becomes another Thalia.)
The deck is definitely decision-intensive and you are right, the correct Turn 1-2 play is complex, as often there are multiple good options, so which one is best remains.
Also, yes, Hurkyl seems pretty great, actually.
Disdainful Stroke is probably okay against Whir, but mostly because removal is bad, but a deck with 4 Thalia + 4 Deputy should do pretty well against Whir.
Results from GP Bilbao also interesting, and I don't know the lists of those Spirit decks, but I'm betting they ran 2-3 Stony and if they did, it didn't seem to matter much...
"Spirits went:
5-0 versus Mill (100%)
3-10 versus Hardened Scales (23.1%)
2-9 versus Affinity (18.2%)"
That all makes sense, and I found the build quite refreshingly tuned to the moment.
It makes good use of Thalia and Deputy, recognizes that Kira is important for protecting them. I'm not wholly sure on 3 Captain\1 Copter, but it is understandable, as it makes all the weaker creatures better and does filter. It loses the boom of CoCo and the draw engine of Obsession, but it has huge threat density, excellent removal, and the most important non-Spirits.
I am amazed he got away with ZERO Stony Silence, but maybe that was a reasonable call in this meta, especially just going with 3 Damping Sphere for Tron, Combo, but also Phoenix.