@ShinyMan
I agree with kysg, the main thing is to not let it resolve. Sure, they gain life and draw, and we can't stop that, but you definitely can't allow it to resolve.
I thought about, and sort of like, the 12 1 drop creatures. 19 lands is a bit greedy given the sideboard (that CMC goes up quite a bit and I would prefer more counter to Melody), and I still have reservations about the mix of 21 spells, since only 2 Dive Down seems light, but i can say that looking at all of the Esper Control, Esper Midrange, and Sultai Midrange. On the other hand, if the top of your curve is 3 and you run 6 draw spells + Obsession, maybe 19 is all you need. I'd be curious to hear if he had mana issues.
Sadly, the best result in the Open proper was Kat Light 52nd Place at StarCityGames.com Open on 1/26/2019 Standard
I have to say, I really, really do not like Biomancer in the deck. No evasion is a huge problem. However, swap the Biomancers and Quenches for 4 Mist-Cloaked and you have almost the same 60. This build is even more all-in on Ptreramander with 18 creatures and 23 spells.
What I would love to hear from both of them is how they did against 1) Mono-R and Mono-W/Azorius Aggro Matches and 2) Esper/Sultai Midrange.
@magic_geek
Ok, you win. Has to be Mono-U to work. I've gotten tire of protecting Deputy of Detention and losing 1-2 damage on Djinn.
I think I am still running 3 Spell Pierce main, but only because I am only going to run 2 Sphinx and 3 Opt, with a Chart in the sideboard for the control-y matches.
The most disappointing card that still needs to be in the deck is Pteramander. Flying just isn't unblockable. On the other hand, I don't know the right mix. 3/1 Mist-Cloaked/Pteramander is what I am testing.
After some testing tonight (6 games against a Reclamation-Nexus deck aka the deck made with two cards that are going to be banned...), a few more notes:
I don't like Sphinx, actually. If the deck was only about getting Curious Obsession, I can see it, but on the other hand, I find myself with them in hand for multiple turns without drawing land when what I need is an Opt or a Depose // Deploy to draw a counterspell. I also agree on the higher spell count to fuel Pteramander (that was my point, after all, in my post.) I think as much as we are an Obsession deck, we also have to be a tempo deck and more draw spells + 4 Pteramander is what I want to build around. If you think Djinn with a Glacial or two on the field is bad, try sitting at 3 lands with 2 Sphinx in hand, wishing you could draw some extra cards and counter the spell you know is coming.
I'm not arguing with your Djinn math. Sometimes it is going to hurt, but Pteramander changes how the deck plays an end game.
Deputy has been amazing so far, and I typically do not want to cast it turn 3, so I am not looking for a single white source until turns 4 or 5. 8 isn't optimal, but it is adequate with enough draw.
Retort definitely not replaceable. Quench is great against faster decks, but not control and combo.
I think your mix of Pierce and Capture is inverted. Nexus nonsense absolutely needs to be countered, as do red burn spells.
Chalice is mostly 4 or 0, with some exceptions (sometimes keep 2 against decks on the draw where it is still good, but possibly too slow on the draw.)
- If the deck you are playing against relies on a lot of 0-1-2 mana spells, Chalice is a 4-of.
- I frequently take it out e.g. against Humans, Spirits, Merfolk, etc, where it is obviously bad.
- On the play vs. on the draw matters. On the play versus Amulet Titan, 4-of. On the draw, 0-2.
Lots of sideboarding advice in the thread. Useful discussion of playing against midrange on p. 11.
Mulligan, in the blind game 1, if you don't have aggression or a lock piece, with enough mana to play out the first two turns at least. You need one or both of those. Acceleration is also important. If your hand is 2 lands, SSG, Thalia, Chalice and anything else, keep it. Same for Temple, land, SSG, TKS and anything else. Hand with no Chalice, no turn 1-2 Thalia, no turn 2 Eldrazi is pretty much always a mulligan, unless it is something stupid like turn 3 smasher into turn 4 smasher because you have 3 Temple, 2 Smasher, but that again is acceleration and aggression.
Post-board mulligan depends on knowing the opposing deck.
Week One, you have to be able to beat Boros Aggro and Mono-R Aggro. I suspect this is why Frank Karsten had two Surge Mare in the main.
I've been testing UW (if it takes off, probably need a new thread, though I am tempted to say this ought to be Island Tempo, so that mono-U vs. Azorius is less a thing because the differences are marginal), so here are a couple of quick thoughts:
1. It is possibleDeputy of Detention is a much better card than Exclusion Mage. 2/2 Main/Side. It is probably also the only Azorius card you want main. EDIT: On the other hand, and I have thought about this, Mage causes them to have to tap out again to replay the card and you don't really have to protect Mage. Deputy, on the other hand, is likely to be the target of removal, which will simply put what you exiled back play. But Depute hits all of the non-land permanents, and of course that, plus hitting multiples of the same target (token and non-token creatures alike) is the real appeal.
2. Depose // Deploy is better than Chart a Course, and Depose doesn't need W mana. Tap, Draw 1 at instant speed provides defense and draw, which is what a deck like our wants. The Deploy portion is potentially significant lifegain against aggro if they are just beating and burning. We will typically have 2 creatures out by turn 4, maybe 3, and Deploy will often buy us enough time to close the game.
I haven't tried it in the main, only in the sideboard, but I am happy giving it 2-3 slots.
3. I didn't want any other Azorius card.
4. Yes, sometimes you will get burned by buddy lands with Djinn, but it isn't that often. At the same time, you typically only need one W mana to be able to operate fully effectively.
5. I really like replacing Opt with Sphinx. Given the tempo nature of the deck, starting out aggressively into protection, with the slightly improved chance to get turn 1 creature, turn 2 Curious Obsession feels much better than holding up mana to draw into cards. I am going with Frank Karsten on this: 3 Sphinx, 21 lands, only keep opening hands with Sphinx or Obsession. So far, slightly, but noticeably, better results.
6. I swapped two Wizard's Retort for two Quench main, which has also felt good. I put the two Retorts in the sideboard.
7. Pteramander is amazing, but I am still on the fence about swapping out Mist-Cloaked Herald for it. Note, that if you want 4 Pteramander, you probably want to drop 3 Sphinx and the presumable 1-of additional 1 drop creature in favor of 4 Opt so your instant and sorcery count is 19, at least. I think 15 Instant and Sorcery is a bit light to convert Pteramander consistently, if you run 4. You could also swap the two Surge Mare for 2 Depose // Deploy to get up to 21. I think deciding on Pteramander as a 1-of or 4-of rests on this call to no small degree, otherwise it is a flying, but blockable, MCH in most games.
Deep Freeze for rando Niv-Mizzet? Maybe just another counterspell? I am betting the decks to beat are going to be Aggro; mid-range decks that figure they can beat aggro (GB, but also Boros/Naya Angels, what with sweepers that don't kill their own creatures, good targeted removal and aggressive creatures with lifegain and ways to use Shalai in Naya now); stupid Combo decks. I'm not sure how much Niv-Mizzet will be a thing Week One (except in the sideboard of the combo decks??), but I am betting that counters will be great.
...The deck that went 10 -0 is an exception to this.
His deck has TWELVE unique cards in it's sideboard.
Of those 12 cards, Karn is a unique outlier, and Jace is mentioned only on page 1.
(I mentioned wanting an Island in the board, but didn't do it.)
Firstly, thanks for the Jace breakdown. It seems surprisingly strong in this deck.
Secondly, while he runs 12 unique cards in the SB, notice how many of them are simply +N of an effect already in the maindeck:
+1 Sleep
+1 Spell Pierce
+1 Warkite
+2 Exclusion Mage
+1 Island
Even the other additional counterspells are just more or less +4 Wizard's Retort.
Overall, 8 of those cards (for a total of 10 actual cards) are just additional copies of main deck cards. So 1-ofs make sense in that setting, since they are often +1/+2 of an existing effect. Very smart execution.
My response is quite simple: Does that card interrupt combo? That is the only reason to run Thalia, to slow our opponents down so we can beat them because we are the better fair deck.
I might just take a week off of mono blue to let the 20-land decks go through the meta and burn out. I expect people to adapt and for the counter-adaptation to be to get a little bigger. If Wr aggro settles in at the 23 land MOCS list then I like our chances. The twenty or fewer lands decks are just bad matchups for us.
There have been rumblings of 18 and 16 land decks. I hope this is a joke.
Yeah, unless someone has magically found a better card than Djinn...
-2, +1, +1... repeat. Control doesn't have a lot of ways to get rid of him and deal with our cast creatures so you can usually get a couple of loots off as well as making some durdles. And if they can't kill your creature for some reason, you can always +1, +1, ultimate, make a pair of 2/2s and keep going.
Also, I don't know how much I like it, but I get her logic and she has had it work out well.
I also don't mind to some degree that we are getting ignored because we will get hated on less, but the delusion that Boros Aggro, GW Tokens, Golgari mid-range, Izzet Drakes, and Jeskai Control are the only decks worth talking about is crazy (Mono-R at least gets a mention.) Mono-U had only one in the PT, but went 10-0. Jim Davis specifically predicted not a single Mono-U deck better than 8-2, but the only one went 10-0. The SCG "analysis" is equally "Blue-blind".
I almost thought Ari Lax was ignoring Mono-U as well, and then he end this with this:
"What About My Other Deck?
Mono-Blue is the same everywhere. Never tap out unless you must. If you do, hope they don't have it and if you play against it, try to kill their things at instant speed then again on your turn."
I agree with kysg, the main thing is to not let it resolve. Sure, they gain life and draw, and we can't stop that, but you definitely can't allow it to resolve.
4 Merfolk Trickster
4 Mist-Cloaked Herald
4 Pteramander
4 Siren Stormtamer
4 Tempest Djinn
Lands (19)
19 Island
4 Curious Obsession
2 Dive Down
3 Essence Capture
4 Opt
2 Spell Pierce
4 Wizard's Retort
2 Chart a Course
1 Diamond Mare
2 Exclusion Mage
2 Blink of an Eye
1 Disdainful Stroke
1 Dive Down
2 Negate
1 Spell Pierce
1 Jace, Cunning Castaway
2 Entrancing Melody
2 Sleep
I thought about, and sort of like, the 12 1 drop creatures. 19 lands is a bit greedy given the sideboard (that CMC goes up quite a bit and I would prefer more counter to Melody), and I still have reservations about the mix of 21 spells, since only 2 Dive Down seems light, but i can say that looking at all of the Esper Control, Esper Midrange, and Sultai Midrange. On the other hand, if the top of your curve is 3 and you run 6 draw spells + Obsession, maybe 19 is all you need. I'd be curious to hear if he had mana issues.
Sadly, the best result in the Open proper was Kat Light 52nd Place at StarCityGames.com Open on 1/26/2019 Standard
2 Benthic Biomancer
4 Merfolk Trickster
4 Pteramander
4 Siren Stormtamer
4 Tempest Djinn
Lands (19)
19 Island
Spells (23)
4 Curious Obsession
3 Dive Down
2 Essence Capture
4 Opt
2 Quench
2 Spell Pierce
4 Wizard's Retort
2 Chart a Course
4 Diamond Mare
2 Exclusion Mage
2 Disdainful Stroke
1 Dive Down
2 Negate
2 Entrancing Melody
2 Sleep
I have to say, I really, really do not like Biomancer in the deck. No evasion is a huge problem. However, swap the Biomancers and Quenches for 4 Mist-Cloaked and you have almost the same 60. This build is even more all-in on Ptreramander with 18 creatures and 23 spells.
What I would love to hear from both of them is how they did against 1) Mono-R and Mono-W/Azorius Aggro Matches and 2) Esper/Sultai Midrange.
Ok, you win. Has to be Mono-U to work. I've gotten tire of protecting Deputy of Detention and losing 1-2 damage on Djinn.
I think I am still running 3 Spell Pierce main, but only because I am only going to run 2 Sphinx and 3 Opt, with a Chart in the sideboard for the control-y matches.
The most disappointing card that still needs to be in the deck is Pteramander. Flying just isn't unblockable. On the other hand, I don't know the right mix. 3/1 Mist-Cloaked/Pteramander is what I am testing.
I don't like Sphinx, actually. If the deck was only about getting Curious Obsession, I can see it, but on the other hand, I find myself with them in hand for multiple turns without drawing land when what I need is an Opt or a Depose // Deploy to draw a counterspell. I also agree on the higher spell count to fuel Pteramander (that was my point, after all, in my post.) I think as much as we are an Obsession deck, we also have to be a tempo deck and more draw spells + 4 Pteramander is what I want to build around. If you think Djinn with a Glacial or two on the field is bad, try sitting at 3 lands with 2 Sphinx in hand, wishing you could draw some extra cards and counter the spell you know is coming.
I'm not arguing with your Djinn math. Sometimes it is going to hurt, but Pteramander changes how the deck plays an end game.
Deputy has been amazing so far, and I typically do not want to cast it turn 3, so I am not looking for a single white source until turns 4 or 5. 8 isn't optimal, but it is adequate with enough draw.
Retort definitely not replaceable. Quench is great against faster decks, but not control and combo.
I think your mix of Pierce and Capture is inverted. Nexus nonsense absolutely needs to be countered, as do red burn spells.
4 Siren Stormtamer
4 Pteramander
4 Merfolk Trickster
4 Tempest Djinn
1 Surge Mare
2 Deputy of Detention
Spells 21
4 Curious Obsession
4 Dive Down
4 Wizard’s Retort
3 Opt
3 Spell Pierce
2 Depose // Deploy
1 Essence Capture
12 Island
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Negate
2 Essence Capture
2 Surge Mare
2 Deputy of Detention
2 Jace, Cunning Castaway
1 Sleep
1 Entrancing Melody
1 Disdainful Stroke
If the format slows down, I can see risking some Sphinx in place of Surge Mare and going up a land.
- If the deck you are playing against relies on a lot of 0-1-2 mana spells, Chalice is a 4-of.
- I frequently take it out e.g. against Humans, Spirits, Merfolk, etc, where it is obviously bad.
- On the play vs. on the draw matters. On the play versus Amulet Titan, 4-of. On the draw, 0-2.
Lots of sideboarding advice in the thread. Useful discussion of playing against midrange on p. 11.
Mulligan, in the blind game 1, if you don't have aggression or a lock piece, with enough mana to play out the first two turns at least. You need one or both of those. Acceleration is also important. If your hand is 2 lands, SSG, Thalia, Chalice and anything else, keep it. Same for Temple, land, SSG, TKS and anything else. Hand with no Chalice, no turn 1-2 Thalia, no turn 2 Eldrazi is pretty much always a mulligan, unless it is something stupid like turn 3 smasher into turn 4 smasher because you have 3 Temple, 2 Smasher, but that again is acceleration and aggression.
Post-board mulligan depends on knowing the opposing deck.
I've been testing UW (if it takes off, probably need a new thread, though I am tempted to say this ought to be Island Tempo, so that mono-U vs. Azorius is less a thing because the differences are marginal), so here are a couple of quick thoughts:
1. It is possible Deputy of Detention is a much better card than Exclusion Mage. 2/2 Main/Side. It is probably also the only Azorius card you want main. EDIT: On the other hand, and I have thought about this, Mage causes them to have to tap out again to replay the card and you don't really have to protect Mage. Deputy, on the other hand, is likely to be the target of removal, which will simply put what you exiled back play. But Depute hits all of the non-land permanents, and of course that, plus hitting multiples of the same target (token and non-token creatures alike) is the real appeal.
2. Depose // Deploy is better than Chart a Course, and Depose doesn't need W mana. Tap, Draw 1 at instant speed provides defense and draw, which is what a deck like our wants. The Deploy portion is potentially significant lifegain against aggro if they are just beating and burning. We will typically have 2 creatures out by turn 4, maybe 3, and Deploy will often buy us enough time to close the game.
I haven't tried it in the main, only in the sideboard, but I am happy giving it 2-3 slots.
3. I didn't want any other Azorius card.
4. Yes, sometimes you will get burned by buddy lands with Djinn, but it isn't that often. At the same time, you typically only need one W mana to be able to operate fully effectively.
5. I really like replacing Opt with Sphinx. Given the tempo nature of the deck, starting out aggressively into protection, with the slightly improved chance to get turn 1 creature, turn 2 Curious Obsession feels much better than holding up mana to draw into cards. I am going with Frank Karsten on this: 3 Sphinx, 21 lands, only keep opening hands with Sphinx or Obsession. So far, slightly, but noticeably, better results.
6. I swapped two Wizard's Retort for two Quench main, which has also felt good. I put the two Retorts in the sideboard.
7. Pteramander is amazing, but I am still on the fence about swapping out Mist-Cloaked Herald for it. Note, that if you want 4 Pteramander, you probably want to drop 3 Sphinx and the presumable 1-of additional 1 drop creature in favor of 4 Opt so your instant and sorcery count is 19, at least. I think 15 Instant and Sorcery is a bit light to convert Pteramander consistently, if you run 4. You could also swap the two Surge Mare for 2 Depose // Deploy to get up to 21. I think deciding on Pteramander as a 1-of or 4-of rests on this call to no small degree, otherwise it is a flying, but blockable, MCH in most games.
Preliminary List for this weekend:
4 Siren Stormtamer
4 Mist-Cloaked Herald
1 Pteramander
4 Merfolk Trickster
2 Surge Mare
4 Tempest Djinn
2 Deputy of Detention
3 Sphinx of Foresight
4 Curious Obsession
4 Dive Down
2 Spell Pierce
1 Essence Capture
2 Wizard’s Retort
2 Quench
Lands 21
13 Island
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Glacial Fortress
3 Depose // Deploy
2 Wizard's Retort
2 Essence Capture
2 Negate
2 Surge Mare
2 Deputy of Detention
1 Sleep
1 Deep Freeze
Deep Freeze for rando Niv-Mizzet? Maybe just another counterspell? I am betting the decks to beat are going to be Aggro; mid-range decks that figure they can beat aggro (GB, but also Boros/Naya Angels, what with sweepers that don't kill their own creatures, good targeted removal and aggressive creatures with lifegain and ways to use Shalai in Naya now); stupid Combo decks. I'm not sure how much Niv-Mizzet will be a thing Week One (except in the sideboard of the combo decks??), but I am betting that counters will be great.
The math on Sphinx is interesting, seemingly more important than Opt, and obviously a threat as the game progresses. Go Maths!
I would like to hear how his games against the Phoenix decks went.
Firstly, thanks for the Jace breakdown. It seems surprisingly strong in this deck.
Secondly, while he runs 12 unique cards in the SB, notice how many of them are simply +N of an effect already in the maindeck:
+1 Sleep
+1 Spell Pierce
+1 Warkite
+2 Exclusion Mage
+1 Island
Even the other additional counterspells are just more or less +4 Wizard's Retort.
Overall, 8 of those cards (for a total of 10 actual cards) are just additional copies of main deck cards. So 1-ofs make sense in that setting, since they are often +1/+2 of an existing effect. Very smart execution.
I would also like to see a sideboard plan.
Welcome aboard!
My response is quite simple: Does that card interrupt combo? That is the only reason to run Thalia, to slow our opponents down so we can beat them because we are the better fair deck.
Yeah, unless someone has magically found a better card than Djinn...
Also, I don't know how much I like it, but I get her logic and she has had it work out well.
More creatures, one Spell Pierce and no Essence Scatter, very interesting.
I also don't mind to some degree that we are getting ignored because we will get hated on less, but the delusion that Boros Aggro, GW Tokens, Golgari mid-range, Izzet Drakes, and Jeskai Control are the only decks worth talking about is crazy (Mono-R at least gets a mention.) Mono-U had only one in the PT, but went 10-0. Jim Davis specifically predicted not a single Mono-U deck better than 8-2, but the only one went 10-0. The SCG "analysis" is equally "Blue-blind".
I almost thought Ari Lax was ignoring Mono-U as well, and then he end this with this:
"What About My Other Deck?
Mono-Blue is the same everywhere. Never tap out unless you must. If you do, hope they don't have it and if you play against it, try to kill their things at instant speed then again on your turn."
4 Drogskol Captain
1 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Mausoleum Wanderer
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Phantasmal Image
1 Rattlechains
3 Reflector Mage
2 Selfless Spirit
4 Spell Queller
4 Supreme Phantom
Instant (6)
4 Collected Company
2 Path to Exile
Artifact (3)
3 Aether Vial
3 Botanical Sanctum
1 Breeding Pool
1 Cavern of Souls
3 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Hallowed Fountain
3 Horizon Canopy
1 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Moorland Haunt
1 Plains
1 Temple Garden
2 Windswept Heath
1 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Disdainful Stroke
1 Dromoka's Command
2 Knight of Autumn
3 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Unified Will
1 Worship