I'm still running MBI for now since I'm new and it's what I have. I know what you mean about permission decks. Still, I haven't seen much clarity at my locals. The proliferation of Artifact stuff is hard for us to deal with, destroying artifacts is not our strong suit. Ratchet Bomb seems like our best option and Spellskite does seem less valuable, though I keep a couple in the SB anyway since at my locals there are still some people using G-aggro and G-infect, so being able to steal their +x/+x pump is nice.
Apostle's Blessing is actually nice right now to be able to swing past permission stuff, or at least force my opponent to stop that too. I might bump it to 4, I just didn't want to be stuck with too few creatures.
I'm siding into a lot of card removal and hand control right now, as a result. I've got the Geth's in, but I'm really considering going with 2 Mind Rot and Distress, I just don't like the way my mana ramp is looking with the probability of losing Duress and Inquisition of Kozilek in October. I lose 4 1CMC and 2 2CMC. Also, the handful of 4 and 5CMC cards are pretty critical (Skittles, Lashwrithe, Batterskull). Losing that much 1CMC and adding several 2 and 3CMC spells seems tough on us.
Ok, so I read a ton of stuff from different people on the B/x Infect thread and looking at M12 and what we lose Oct. 1, unless Innistrad is amazing for us, is it me or is MBI kinda in a lot of trouble? I mean, i don't know what we'll get for U/B Infect or R/B Infect either.
We're losing a lot of our control that did so well on the mana curve (unlike our creatures) and we're not getting terribly mana efficient creatures in return (and nothing with Infect for us in M12)
Inquisition of Kozilek B
Duress B
Sign in Blood BB
Disfigure B
What are we getting in return?
Distress BB That's a pretty high cost, and BB, not even 1B, to replace Duress and IoK.
For our draw issues, any thoughts on Infiltration Lens? Keep one SiB, add two IL? It is efficient, if we get blocked.
seriously, the last few post have been... below serious discussion. Seriously people.
I can see how Viral Drake might be interesting, but not INSTEAD of contagion clasp. The Magnet/Clasp engine is vital in any non-combo, non-too-aggro decks.
I'll be testingRatchet Bomb as a solution to our aggro-problems.
And I'm liking torpor orb more and more over Spellskite. Spellskite eats burn, but it doesn't shut Valakut down very good. the Orb shuts down Valakut and Combo completely, but doesn't do anything against RDW, which Ratchet bomb does however.
Like I think I said, I'm new to MTG, so I'm trying to understand the advantages of each. After some play testing, I think I understand why Clasps instead, but I'm dropping that route entirely at this time.
Thanks.
Edit:
Lots of silence. Also on MBI thread. Is Infect in trouble?
I'm testing with the following deck. I'm not happy with the Island/Swamp, I end up with bad draw with a lot of one or the other because I have the luck of a snow cone in Hell. I've tried various ratios, too, not just 6/6 and nothing seems to work well.
I really didn't like Contagion Clasp/Tumble Magnet in my locals. the -1/-1 was ok, but I almost never wanted to spend 4 mana to proliferate. Ratchet is nice though.
I know Jace Beleren is not necessary, but except against aggro, where I side him out anyways, he's good. Lot of control decks in my locals.
Ah, the -1/-1? Ok, that's good against decks running a lot of x/1, but so far I'm playing against a lot of decks in my locals that don't run many x/1 creatures. I do see a lot of people run it with Tumble Magnets in non-Blue decks for stall with some limited removal though.
Makes sense though. I guess I'll see how it plays out.
So why Contagion Clasp instead of Viral Drake? Drake gives a 1/4 body with Infect and Proliferate and Flying, i.e. it's pretty awesome. Yes, slower to get out, but it would seem better in every other respect. What MTG insight am I missing here? Artifact is less subject to destruction, maybe?
I am a newer player and I started with Mono-Black Infect, but quickly realized U/B Infect had some nice possibilities. Had no idea about the Kibler deck until today, but this is what I had come up with looking towards Oct. 1. I Dropped (almost) everything M2011 and anything Zendikar Cycle, and what I didn't drop, I indicated what I plan to roll in.
Losing Jace Beleren and Into the Roil hurts.
I was wondering what the thoughts were about Viral Drake and Inexorable Tide. They seem to hit too late, but Viral Drake seems like a viable alternative to Contagion Clasp because it puts an Infect/Proliferate 1/4 body out there for the same cost to proliferate.
I'm not running Necropede here because I want Spellskite out early, it is such a game altering card and a better body. Inkmoth Nexus is my key to dropping that first, proliferate-able poison.
EDIT: Geth's Verdict get(h)s around Hexproof/Shroud, but it's a BB, which is not consistent yet, until we get 3rd set of U/B Lands again.
I suppose the support cards make a difference as well.
My locals deck design is not really based on proliferation for Mono, so I am not running Virulent Wound and Contagion Clasp in my MB, which really do work nicely with Necropede. That was part of what led to Plague Stinger vs. Plague Myr, as essentially Flying vs. Mana. I think that if you are going Lashwrithe, extra mana early can be very beneficial in a way that wouldn't matter in a slower proliferation deck with Necropedes, Virulent Wound, and Contagion Clasp, with maybe Ratchet Bombs and Tumble Magnets as proliferation-based tech for destruction and delay.
This is a variation of the Ick, That's Infected proliferate build I was tinkering with earlier:
Still contemplating what to do after the Zendikar Cycle cycles out stuff. Need more U/B lands. Not having 12 made for some serious inconsistency. Ideas to make this valid post-Beleren?
So I like infect, I like control, but I am tinkering with a U/B version instead of Mono-Black (I don't have the materials for Mono-G or B/W). I'm tired of turn 5 having no hand, even with 3-4 Sign in Blood/Tezzeret's Gambit.
Here is what I am thinking as my base cards, but I'm not sure how to sort this out. I am also thinking towards the new meta, so no Zendikar Cycle cards not being reprinted in the new meta.
Basic Questions:
- What and how much Blue draw? I'm thinking Ponder, but maybe Preordain is better. And is 4 Preordain/Ponder and 4 Tezzeret's Gambit too much?
- Jace Beleren or not? He's a big investment, but he really does speed U/B.
- Sword of X or Lashwrithe? Swords are awfully nice: Feast and Famine, Vengeance (Trample, Vigilance, First Strike, on a +2/+0!), and Body and Mind all have some nice benefits. However, Lashwrithe + Crusader is 2 turn win generally, while Lashwrithe + Skittles is 1-2 turn win.
- Spell negation (Mana Leak) versus hand control (Despise, Duress, Distress)
- Do I still need Spellskite and Phyrexian Metamorph, or is it really only for Mono-Black Control Infect?
Of course, I'm not using a lot of hand control from Mono-Black Infect and I am using a lot more creatures than U/B Control:
2x Despise
2x Duress
4x Apostle's Blessing (Nice spot tech against Instants, but not needed really in a deck with 4 Mana Leak)
4x Lashwrithe (Pretty much the wind condition in Mon-Black Control, whether combat or infect)
I'm liking Cellar Door's lineup overall but I am really torn between what is the best 1/1 to run in the deck.
Necropede, takes out 2/2 without any assistance, also can weaken something if it goes down to a 1/1. However, does not fly which limits its attacking, but also what it can defend against; does not produce mana, best possible mana Turn 3 is 3.
Plague Stinger, flies, which makes it a better attacker and defender. However, it does not stop anything bigger than a 1/1 and does not generate mana.
Plague Myr, generates Mana. Possible 4 mana on turn 3, 6 mana on turn 4, with a body to do a little defending, which also means possibly Hasted Skittles turn 4, or Lashwrithe on Myr turn 3 at 4/4. It works best with combos like this, however, and probably needs to be run in 4s.
Each one frankly is really good in its own way. Has anyone seen any differences with consistency?
One thing that occurs to me is that Spellskite is a great 2 mana defender, and if we are running 3, well, as cool as Necropede is, it's not worth it, since our real attackers are Crusader, Inkmoth, Skittles, preferably with a nice Lashwrithe boost.
In which case, I think the real question is Plague Myr or Plague Stinger, flying or mana?
why would you play mutagenic growth when you can use vampiric bite, virulent swipe, etc, the black instants?
I'm not saying you would use it, I'm just saying that it would be a better choice than Dark Favor.
I will say, on Dark Favor's behalf, it does make a 5/3 Phyrexian Crusader until the Crusader dies, changes zones, etc. for the cost of 1B and 1 life.
However it seems that, despite the higher casting cost, equipment artifacts would be a better choice because you can always re-equip them to another creature.
It works very good against the current Tier 1 decks
Act of Aggression also works in a mirror match very well, and Apostle Blessing gives removal and artifact immunity (Tumble Magnet wont work)
Isn't 64 cards a bit much, especially with no draw? Wouldn't you benefit from putting Virulent in the SB for something else (Only decks that aggro 1/1 or 2/2 stuff early get hurt by this at all)? And why Plague Stinger if you have 4 Inkmoth Nexus and 4 Plague Myr, given the rest of your focus?
Apostle's Blessing is actually nice right now to be able to swing past permission stuff, or at least force my opponent to stop that too. I might bump it to 4, I just didn't want to be stuck with too few creatures.
I'm siding into a lot of card removal and hand control right now, as a result. I've got the Geth's in, but I'm really considering going with 2 Mind Rot and Distress, I just don't like the way my mana ramp is looking with the probability of losing Duress and Inquisition of Kozilek in October. I lose 4 1CMC and 2 2CMC. Also, the handful of 4 and 5CMC cards are pretty critical (Skittles, Lashwrithe, Batterskull). Losing that much 1CMC and adding several 2 and 3CMC spells seems tough on us.
CMC Mana ramp now:
1 13 cards
2 16 cards
3 7 cards
4 5 cards
5 3 cards
4 Inkmoth Nexus
16 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
Creatures 11
4 Phyrexian Crusader
2 Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Necropede
Artifacts 8
3 Lashwrite
1 Batterskull
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Contagion Clasp
3 Go for the Throat
2 Dismember
3 Apostle's Blessing
Sorcery 9
1 Duress
2 Despise
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Sign in Blood
1 Tezzeret's Gambit
3 Geth's Verdict
2 Spellskite
4 Surgical Extraction
1 Memoricide
1 Duress
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Black Sun's Zenith
I'll let you know how this goes tomorrow, I would like to see what you think is sensible right now, as far as it goes, Archie.
Still don't know what i will do post-M11 for Draw and Hand Control. Hopefully we get something.
4 Inkmoth Nexus
16 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
Creatures: 10
2 Spellskite
4 Phyrexian Crusader
2 Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
Artifacts: 6
4 Lashwrithe
2 Contagion Clasp
3 Go for the Throat
2 Disfigure
3 Geth's Verdict
1 Doom Blade
Sorcery: 11
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Distress
1 Despise
1 Tezzeret's Gambit
2 Sign in Blood
2 Mind Rot
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Black Sun’s Zenith
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Memoricide
1 Doom Blade
1 Despise
1 Duress
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Hex Parasite
Ok, so I read a ton of stuff from different people on the B/x Infect thread and looking at M12 and what we lose Oct. 1, unless Innistrad is amazing for us, is it me or is MBI kinda in a lot of trouble? I mean, i don't know what we'll get for U/B Infect or R/B Infect either.
We're losing a lot of our control that did so well on the mana curve (unlike our creatures) and we're not getting terribly mana efficient creatures in return (and nothing with Infect for us in M12)
Inquisition of Kozilek B
Duress B
Sign in Blood BB
Disfigure B
What are we getting in return?
Distress BB That's a pretty high cost, and BB, not even 1B, to replace Duress and IoK.
For our draw issues, any thoughts on Infiltration Lens? Keep one SiB, add two IL? It is efficient, if we get blocked.
That seems to be about it.
Like I think I said, I'm new to MTG, so I'm trying to understand the advantages of each. After some play testing, I think I understand why Clasps instead, but I'm dropping that route entirely at this time.
Thanks.
Edit:
Lots of silence. Also on MBI thread. Is Infect in trouble?
I'm testing with the following deck. I'm not happy with the Island/Swamp, I end up with bad draw with a lot of one or the other because I have the luck of a snow cone in Hell. I've tried various ratios, too, not just 6/6 and nothing seems to work well.
I really didn't like Contagion Clasp/Tumble Magnet in my locals. the -1/-1 was ok, but I almost never wanted to spend 4 mana to proliferate. Ratchet is nice though.
I know Jace Beleren is not necessary, but except against aggro, where I side him out anyways, he's good. Lot of control decks in my locals.
4 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Drowned Catacomb
6 Island
6 Swamp
Creatures 10
2 Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
4 Phyrexian Crusader
2 Spellskite
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
Instant 12
2 Dismember
3 Go for the Throat
4 Mana Leak
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Preordain
2 Ponder
1 Tezzeret's Gambit
1 Despise
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
Artifact 3
1 Batterskull
2 Sword of Vengeance (no Sword of Feast and Famine)
Planeswalker 2
2 Jace Beleren
2 Mental Misstep
1 Surgical Extraction
4 Spreading Seas
2 Corrupted Conscience
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Black Sun's Zenith
Makes sense though. I guess I'll see how it plays out.
I'm guessing 6 creatures + Spellskite, from your description, means 4 Phyrexian Vatmother, 2 Spellskite.
Spreading Seas seems like a great choice, but I'm looking at U/B Infect choices and with a lot of removal (4 Inquisition of Kozilek, 2? Despise, and 2? Duress?), 2 BSZs,
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Contagion Clasp
2 Tumble Magnet
2 Tezzeret's Gambit
1 Jace Beleren
3 Corrupted Resolve
4 Virulent Wound
4 Inkmoth Nexus
6 Creatures
18 more Lands, I'm guessing
That's 54 without a single Go For the Throat, Into the Roil, Dismember. At 2, 2, 2 of those, you have 60.
Or 54 + 2 Go for the Throat, 3 Preordain and 1 Mana Leak.
Something like that, I'm guessing.
SB, I'm guessing
4 Spreading Seas
3 Memoricide
+ 8
Close?
Losing Jace Beleren and Into the Roil hurts.
I was wondering what the thoughts were about Viral Drake and Inexorable Tide. They seem to hit too late, but Viral Drake seems like a viable alternative to Contagion Clasp because it puts an Infect/Proliferate 1/4 body out there for the same cost to proliferate.
What is a better SB combination: Memoricide or Surgical Extraction? Is Whispering Specter (which is really a one-shot hand control) worth using at all if I go Viral Drake?
I'm not running Necropede here because I want Spellskite out early, it is such a game altering card and a better body. Inkmoth Nexus is my key to dropping that first, proliferate-able poison.
EDIT: Geth's Verdict get(h)s around Hexproof/Shroud, but it's a BB, which is not consistent yet, until we get 3rd set of U/B Lands again.
4x Darkslick Shores
4x Drowned Catacomb
5x Swamp
6x Island
4x Inkmoth Nexus
Creatures (14)
4x Phyrexian Crusader
2x Phyrexian Metamorph
2x Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
2x Spellskite
3x Viral Drake
1x Whispering Specter
2x Dismember
4x Go For the Throat
4x Mana Leak
Sorcery (14)
3x Inquisition of Kozilek (Distress after Oct. 30)
1x Duress (Distress after Oct. 30)
1x Despise
4x Ponder
2x Tezzeret's Gambit
2x Black Sun's Zenith
1x Caress of Phyrexia
4x Doom Blade
3x Surgical Extraction OR Memoricide
2x Hex Parasite
2x Corrupted Conscience
4x Virulent Wound
Maybeboard
2x Contagion Clasp
2x Tumble Magnet
2x Ratchet Bomb
I'm not running Spreading Seas because it goes away Sept. 30.
My locals deck design is not really based on proliferation for Mono, so I am not running Virulent Wound and Contagion Clasp in my MB, which really do work nicely with Necropede. That was part of what led to Plague Stinger vs. Plague Myr, as essentially Flying vs. Mana. I think that if you are going Lashwrithe, extra mana early can be very beneficial in a way that wouldn't matter in a slower proliferation deck with Necropedes, Virulent Wound, and Contagion Clasp, with maybe Ratchet Bombs and Tumble Magnets as proliferation-based tech for destruction and delay.
This is a variation of the Ick, That's Infected proliferate build I was tinkering with earlier:
2 Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
4 Phyrexian Crusader
4 Necropede
4 Ichor Rats
Sorcery/Instant: 16
2 Black Sun's Zenith
4 Go for the Throat
4 Virulent Wound
2 Dismember
4 Tezzeret's Gambit
3 Contagion Clasp
3 Tumble Magnet
2 Ratchet Bomb
Land:23
4 Inkmoth Nexus
15 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Memoricide
2 Caress of Phyrexia
4 Doom Blade
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Despise
1 Duress
4x Darkslick Shores
4x Drowned Catacomb
4x Swamp
2x Tectonic Edge
6x Island
4x Inkmoth Nexus
Creatures (18)
4x Phyrexian Crusader
2x Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
2x Spellskite
Instant (10)
2x Dismember
4x Go For the Throat
4x Mana Leak
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Duress
4x Ponder
2x Tezzeret's Gambit
2x Despise
2x Caress of Phyrexia
Artifact (2)
2x Contagion Clasp
Planeswalker (2)
2x Jace Beleren
2x Doom Blade
2x Geth's Verdict
2x Black Sun's Zenith
3x Memoricide
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Corrupted Conscience
2x Phyrexian Metamorph
Still contemplating what to do after the Zendikar Cycle cycles out stuff. Need more U/B lands. Not having 12 made for some serious inconsistency. Ideas to make this valid post-Beleren?
Here is what I am thinking as my base cards, but I'm not sure how to sort this out. I am also thinking towards the new meta, so no Zendikar Cycle cards not being reprinted in the new meta.
Basic Questions:
- What and how much Blue draw? I'm thinking Ponder, but maybe Preordain is better. And is 4 Preordain/Ponder and 4 Tezzeret's Gambit too much?
- Jace Beleren or not? He's a big investment, but he really does speed U/B.
- Sword of X or Lashwrithe? Swords are awfully nice: Feast and Famine, Vengeance (Trample, Vigilance, First Strike, on a +2/+0!), and Body and Mind all have some nice benefits. However, Lashwrithe + Crusader is 2 turn win generally, while Lashwrithe + Skittles is 1-2 turn win.
- Spell negation (Mana Leak) versus hand control (Despise, Duress, Distress)
- Do I still need Spellskite and Phyrexian Metamorph, or is it really only for Mono-Black Control Infect?
Land (23)
4x Darkslick Shores
4x Drowned Catacomb
4x Inkmoth Nexus
7x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
Sorcery (12)
4x Distress (instead of Inquisition of Kozilek)
4x Ponder
4x Tezzeret's Gambit
Artifact (4)
4x Sword of Body and Mind
2x Dismember
4x Go for the Throat
2x Into the Roil
4x Memory Leak
Creature (11)
4x Phyrexian Crusader
2x Phyrexian Metamorph
2x Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
3x Spellskite
Planeswalker (3)
3x Jace Beleren
3x Doom Blade
2x Memoricide
2x Black Sun's Zenith
4x Sword of Feast and Famine
4x Surgical Extraction
Of course, I'm not using a lot of hand control from Mono-Black Infect and I am using a lot more creatures than U/B Control:
2x Despise
2x Duress
4x Apostle's Blessing (Nice spot tech against Instants, but not needed really in a deck with 4 Mana Leak)
4x Lashwrithe (Pretty much the wind condition in Mon-Black Control, whether combat or infect)
4x Sword of Vengeance
Necropede, takes out 2/2 without any assistance, also can weaken something if it goes down to a 1/1. However, does not fly which limits its attacking, but also what it can defend against; does not produce mana, best possible mana Turn 3 is 3.
Plague Stinger, flies, which makes it a better attacker and defender. However, it does not stop anything bigger than a 1/1 and does not generate mana.
Plague Myr, generates Mana. Possible 4 mana on turn 3, 6 mana on turn 4, with a body to do a little defending, which also means possibly Hasted Skittles turn 4, or Lashwrithe on Myr turn 3 at 4/4. It works best with combos like this, however, and probably needs to be run in 4s.
Each one frankly is really good in its own way. Has anyone seen any differences with consistency?
One thing that occurs to me is that Spellskite is a great 2 mana defender, and if we are running 3, well, as cool as Necropede is, it's not worth it, since our real attackers are Crusader, Inkmoth, Skittles, preferably with a nice Lashwrithe boost.
In which case, I think the real question is Plague Myr or Plague Stinger, flying or mana?
I'm not saying you would use it, I'm just saying that it would be a better choice than Dark Favor.
I will say, on Dark Favor's behalf, it does make a 5/3 Phyrexian Crusader until the Crusader dies, changes zones, etc. for the cost of 1B and 1 life.
However it seems that, despite the higher casting cost, equipment artifacts would be a better choice because you can always re-equip them to another creature.
Isn't 64 cards a bit much, especially with no draw? Wouldn't you benefit from putting Virulent in the SB for something else (Only decks that aggro 1/1 or 2/2 stuff early get hurt by this at all)? And why Plague Stinger if you have 4 Inkmoth Nexus and 4 Plague Myr, given the rest of your focus?
I would prefer Swiftfoot Boots: Haste and Hexproof for 2 mana, 1 mana to equip. Not Lashwrithe, but quite handy nonetheless.