Those lands don't tap for colored mana. There aren't that many colored mana utility lands that enter the battlefield untapped.
And these new lands produce colorless pain free. You can think of them as dual lands now with colorless being a full fledged color these days. They are pretty good overall imo, not great but solid.
discard, permission(counterspells), prison strategies, land destruction and mana denial
depending on the meta and the build turns has used all of these different ways to control the board while assembling the combo.
the ur with 4 bolts and 4 snapcaster is more focused on tempo. a ur version with 4 ssg and 4 cotv main is more a prisonish build.
the ub turns at gp vegas was more about discard and permission. in some metas turns plays a lot of spreading seas and ghost quarters in addition to gigadrowses and exhaustions and boomerangs to hit lands
i think we can agree that turn isn't a pure control deck but we should also agree that everything that is not a land or a combo piece is here to provide control elements, be it discard, prison, mana denial, tempo or whatever one prefers to play.
i don't know f that's enough to call turns a control deck but calling it a combo deck is wrong as well... the right definition is that turns decks have all these characteristics
See, you didn't read the whole thread. I was literally calling people out for assuming all control strategies are counterspells while ignoring black and white control decks. Sigh. Turns isn't control. Its tempo / combo. We have no mono blue control decks because blue control cannot stand on its own. I have been very clear about white and black being full fledged control bases. The whole point of this thread is to:
1. Agree that blue control is garbage in modern
2. Figure out why people can't see black as the control color of modern
3. Stop saying modern has no control decks just because blue is trash. We have control just not counterspell control.
turns is a tempo/control deck that closes games with a 16 cards combo
Its tempo combo sure. There's little to no control in there at all. Why? because blue lacks efficient answers, and it takes a 16 card combo to be a reliable blue finisher.
resource denial is both a tempo and control thing tho.. in this way it is a control deck.
I assume you mean gigadrowse and exhaustion when you say resource denial, but if you stop to think about it those are their actually their tempo heavy hitters. They don't destroy or counter anything, they just stall the game into the turns where the combo goes off. It's an easy mistake to make, but there is no way you can consider turns to be much control at all. Remand isn't a hard counter, and it's rare to see a list with anything other than Remand. Occasionally you see a copy or two of Cryptic, but that hardly makes it a control deck.
Control doesnt mean only permission in form of Counters tho.
Uh I know that, but what blue is doing in Turns isn't control either, are you arguing that Turns has control elements that are not counterspells? If so what elements?
I think stinkweed is a rather interesting choice. It resists just about everything short of path to exile. Hadn't considered it but worth some thought.
The math on your smallpox land count doesn't hold up however. Neither does the idea that because we aren't using fetch lands and our opponents are (possibly) using them that we can land our 3 drops faster and more consistently. The fetchland "land thinning" has math has been debunked many times. Simple google search will fix that for you.
If you think Turns is a control deck then I don't think we can have any meaningful discussions about control decks. Gl.
turns is a tempo/control deck that closes games with a 16 cards combo
Its tempo combo sure. There's little to no control in there at all. Why? because blue lacks efficient answers, and it takes a 16 card combo to be a reliable blue finisher.
resource denial is both a tempo and control thing tho.. in this way it is a control deck.
I assume you mean gigadrowse and exhaustion when you say resource denial, but if you stop to think about it those are their actually their tempo heavy hitters. They don't destroy or counter anything, they just stall the game into the turns where the combo goes off. It's an easy mistake to make, but there is no way you can consider turns to be much control at all. Remand isn't a hard counter, and it's rare to see a list with anything other than Remand. Occasionally you see a copy or two of Cryptic, but that hardly makes it a control deck.
If you think Turns is a control deck then I don't think we can have any meaningful discussions about control decks. Gl.
turns is a tempo/control deck that closes games with a 16 cards combo
Its tempo combo sure. There's little to no control in there at all. Why? because blue lacks efficient answers, and it takes a 16 card combo to be a reliable blue finisher.
UW is a successful reactive control deck in the format and has significant meta share. It's completely off-base to claim the format has no successful blue reliant, reactive control deck.
That's because it has a control base that can stand on its own: white. UW control leans heavily on white for answers, sweepers and threats. It's is more board control than counterspells. Blue control cannot stand on its own, I stand by that statement. It lacks finishers and efficient answers. White and Black, the other two control bases, both can stand on their own. Control decks with blue in them need one of the other control bases.
So yes you can have UW control, but you cannot have say UG control. You can have BG control though (obviously). If you try and do UR you get a tempo deck, and tempo is something that Blue does well in Modern. Now you may have success with tempo, but that doesn't give control players the right "feel" they are looking for. There are no draw go UR, late game decks because UR lacks a control base that can stand on its own.
Can someone explain to me why Bloodbraid Elf needs to be on the banlist when Jund midrange isn't even tier 2 and cards like Collected Company are more powerful?
I think the main reason is that is simple and very powerful. It give the impression that a plant can pilot it successfully and the loses tend to be miserable and the game are hopeless. I find that out by playing blue tron, sure is less powerful, but it have its good match up where you crush your opponent, but it looks like a deck that requires skill and give the impression that the game wasn't completely one sided, so the opponents don't get salty. Personally I know several guy who dislike "classic" tron but like blue tron.
The point is: people don't hate tron in particular, people hate deck that looks dumb and overpowered.
If all tron was blue tron there would be little to no hate for it. Blue tron is much more fair.
All he said was his plan involves stopping. It doesn't say anything about how many cards / strategies he wants banned before that happens, or when it will happen.
It does kind of imply that the process happens then you repeat it X times, though I read it as most others did initially. But the wording is odd, if X=0 seems like the process should still happen with 0 repeats. Has WOTC clarified this at all?
its less eficient than the other cards in the deck, but its like a rack that helps activate itself
maybe it fits better in a more midrange version with less racks (since more than 8 might be to many), less discard and more ways to control the board and win behind lili + torment and the remaining racks
just an idea
I don't hate it but man why couldn't it cost 1 less.
I want to talk about Liliana's Defeat. At first I thought this card had a chance to see play, but that was before I learned that Dark Betrayal was a card. I don't value the planeswalker clause of Lili's defeat over the instant speed of dark betrayal. Dark Betrayal see no play currently so I have a hard time seeing a future for Lilis Defeat. For me so far the best part of the new card was learning of the existence of the dark betrayal. I think i actually WILL use betrayal in some of my sideboards vs Grixis death shadow.
1. Agree that blue control is garbage in modern
2. Figure out why people can't see black as the control color of modern
3. Stop saying modern has no control decks just because blue is trash. We have control just not counterspell control.
The math on your smallpox land count doesn't hold up however. Neither does the idea that because we aren't using fetch lands and our opponents are (possibly) using them that we can land our 3 drops faster and more consistently. The fetchland "land thinning" has math has been debunked many times. Simple google search will fix that for you.
Regarding land counts I'll refer you to this excellent article from channel fireball: https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/how-many-lands-do-you-need-to-consistently-hit-your-land-drops/
If it's too much for you to read scroll to the end for the conclusion.
So yes you can have UW control, but you cannot have say UG control. You can have BG control though (obviously). If you try and do UR you get a tempo deck, and tempo is something that Blue does well in Modern. Now you may have success with tempo, but that doesn't give control players the right "feel" they are looking for. There are no draw go UR, late game decks because UR lacks a control base that can stand on its own.