I honestly was hoping you'd tell me my list was bad, because the variation in this deck is absolutely extreme.
I'll give your verbatim list a few rounds and see if there's anything that jumps out at me. I suspect that you are feeling the pains of being so linear though.
I think Claim//Fame is certain to see play. I could see it giving UR Kiln Fiend a resurge, now with a black splash for Fatal Push and Claim plus some sideboard cards.
Claim//fame also costs 3 mana. Khologhan's command is an instant, is better against affinity and burn, and you don't need a creature in your graveyard to play it.
You don't have to cast both halves at once. Claim this turn, and then Fame next turn once they can attack.
Kommand puts a critter in your hand, claim puts it on the battlefield, big difference.
Regarding Stifle Pigeon - if it allow your effects to be targeted I think it would counter the Cycle if no other targets were available.
It's a good deck that a monkey could pilot effectively. Find lands, tap lands, cast huge things early. Wow that was so challenging. Should I cast this Karn here on turn 3? Gee I dunno, well ok then here I go...
Magic is a hard game boy design.
There is no decks that are easy to play.
Sure some decks are harder than other, but even the easiest decks are hard to pilot.
Even decks like mono red Goblin are hard to play.
I Can do the same things for 8racks.
"8 racks is so stupid, even a monkey Can play it.
Hey sir Can i play my cards ? Nope discard lel. Ho and please sir, may you sacrifice everything you have on the board?
Wow so fun. Discard, discard, discard, discard, wait, wait a little more, win. Wow that was fair and fun"
True but this is a thread about how we all hate Tron!
Seriously though if you consider all of the Modern decks we have, on the easy end of the spectrum you have Burn. Tron is way closer to that side than the other side.
It's a good deck that a monkey could pilot effectively. Find lands, tap lands, cast huge things early. Wow that was so challenging. Should I cast this Karn here on turn 3? Gee I dunno, well ok then here I go...
I don't think this does enough to warrant inclusion in any snapcaster deck.
It might make it in Abzan or elves where they can cast it off of 1-2 mana dorks and suffer 0 drawback.
I've never seen a BUG deck or a RUG deck that rely on mana dorks enough to really work around the drawback the single token doesn't seem stronger than the Black wraith one in a Snapcaster deck. Maybe Bant runs this and helps that color shard become a thing that doesn't revolve around dropping Eldrazi but I doubt that also.
Im picturing some kind of "Next Level Blue" (NLU) remix. Current snapcaster decks aren't running green, but now they have a new reason to try it. Two mana for a 5/4 is pretty good, draw backs be damned. I think it's a fair card if played on Turn 2, and it just get's better from there. The later you cast it, the less the draw back matters. It's a great top deck.
This card is going to be a problem for us. It makes their critters discard proof. It goes in every deck that is running critters and black, which is a lot of them. Snapcaster loves this card. In a lot of ways this card is the answer to Fatal Push for creature decks.
It's not all bad though.
-The decks that will use this are also vulnerable to Graveyard hate.
-Rest in Peace and Leyline of the Void will be needed. We may even want to dust off our Grafdiggers.
-GoyfRack can use it for itself
-MythRack can drop pox and use Path to Exile
The point of this thread is how godawful blue is as a stand alone control color. And yeah, it's bad. White has big problems too but at least it can stand on it's own as a control shell. Meanwhile Black just keeps on getting better.
The really bizarre part is how slow people are to adapt to this. Anytime someone says control deck, they STILL immediately assume blue counterspell draw go. Sorry but that deck isn't a thing in Modern. From now on start thinking about Black Discard and removal as control in Modern. Get with the times people!
it's ironic you say this...
blue has competitive mono-color decks: folk and taking turns
black has 1 in the rack, I'll let you be the judge on how competitive these 3 decks are relative to one another
I think you're referring to yourself when you say "it's bizarre how people think control refers to mono blue." Control isn't really a thing in modern by design, players love modern because there is no control deck, there is no successful reactive strategy because that is miserable to play against.
You're way off on almost the entire post. First off you list Turns and Merfolk as your examples of mono blue decks. But I never said there weren't any competitive mono blue decks. I said that there aren't any mono blue CONTROL DECKS. Because blue control cannot stand on its own. It's a pretty big difference and you use this false premise to flail about in the rest of your post. Why would I compare the power of 8Rack to Turns or Folk? They have nothing to do with each other and comparing how "competitive" (whatever the hell that means) they are is nonsense.
Furthermore, there ARE control decks in modern. You suffer from the exact mentality I was warning people about earlier. You cannot distinguish control decks from reactive control decks. You are correct when you say there aren't any successful reactive control decks but talking about how bad reactive blue is was the whole point of this thread!! My God man open your eyes.
Claim is absurdly strong in Modern. It helps Blue out a lot giving snapcaster even more value. Picture Turn 1 Thoughtseize or IoK and you reveal Claim // Fame and Goyf. Discard the goyf and it comes back for less mana than it's casting cost. Discard the Claim and you still get your Goyf and you can Fame it to boot!
The green last stand looks playable in UG decks where you can snapcaster it back. Maybe a new BUG deck will be viable! Overall this set is pretty great.
EDIT: Deleted response. Private message me if you want my current Goyfrack /8Rock lists.
Well, I have no idea what you deleted. If you have a more up to date list than on your youtube, I'd appreciate it. But I would also appreciate comments on the card choices.
I do have updated lists, I just don't like posting them here due to the awful moderation and toxicity of MTGS. I'll PM them to you.
One thing I found surprising while testing goyfrack was how underwhelming Abrupt Decay is. On the surface you would think it would be an auto include 3-4 copies, but its actually a lot worse than Fatal Push in practice because of one thing: It can't hit manlands. Manlands are one of our weaknesses because we have a hard time forcing them to be discarded, and they are also immune to Liliana's edict. It hits chalice set to 0 though, so if you are 100% sure you will face chalice keep them maindeck as you SECONDARY removal. Fatal Push is the primary removal and should get 4 copies.
I'm still laughing at the naysayers on this board that tried to convince me that Fatal Push was a bad card. I said it was the black lightning bolt and get trolled. Currently it's the MOST played card in the entire format, with Path to Exile number 2 and Lightning Bolt way down at number 3. Huh. Imagine that.
I hope you wouldn't mind, 8 Rack was my first ever MTG deck, and it's been setting in my desk for too long in favor of other decks. I was hoping you could give me some tuning advice for the following problems:
I found that taking a mulligan is rarely feasible, as most of the deck trades 1 for 1, and that puts us behind the curve.
The biggest issue, consistency: 8 Rack needs to draw the perfect quantity of rack(s), board control and hand disruption. It often just doesn't line up, and our top decks are often abysmal.
Do you still stand by 1 or 2 Bontu's mainboard, or is it entirely relegated to SB tech?
Do you still agree that bridgeless is the way to go?
I've tried slotting Necrogen Mists both for its persistent discard, allowing for more aggressive mulligans and consistency, as well as to combat Leyline of Sanctity, but deemed it too slow. Any thoughts on combating these issues?
I agree with Reapers assessment above. This is a pretty clean list, I a bit surprised you find variance to be one of your top issues, as the deck has a ton of redundancy. One thing I see is 4 smallpox sitting next to 4 wrench mind. I think you can shave a copy of each to open up some more room. If it were me I would keep the urborg count at 4 as well. Try 2x copies of Ensnaring Bridge in those spots, or 2 more removal.
Keep in mind you are going all in on max linearity. You basically have no plan B if they get around your hand destruction. This is certainly a viable way to go, but you will lose games because of it make no mistake. I have always preferred plan B configurations using cards such as Pack Rat and Asylum Visitor.
Driven // Despair is a card seriously worth brewing with for Golgari 8Rack. Just add some dredge which is already decent fuel for Raven's Crime.
It might be better for Loampox but I bet 8rack might be able to squeeze 1 or 2 in. Maybe we could make some sort of Hybrid?
We run so few creatures, even in GoyFrack that Driven rarely will trigger, and if 8rack is connecting with critters than both halves of this card have to fall into the win more category of effects. Close, but no cigar for me.
Of the current spoilers, only Bontu's is a clear winner for 8Rack so far, but it's a really nice card. If that's the only one we get I'll still call it a big win.
Hence my "Now I doubt it will actually see play because GB is just loaded with ridiculously powerful cards but I believe the power level of that card is above average when compared to what other color combos get." comment.
I would LOVE to see a similarly powerful split card in UR or WB.
EDIT: Not every card has to slot into an existing deck for it to be good. At some point there will be a culmination of effects that creates a new deck and I am saying this card certainly has the power level to be playable in modern. I'm not saying it will be, but compare it to failure // comply for instance; it's an apples to oranges comparison, but it's a rotten apples to fresh oranges comparison for sure.
You've got the "shiny new card" goggles on. Give it a couple weeks and you will forget you ever thought about Driven // Despair.
Meh I wouldn't be too sure about that. Cards like CoCo fall into the "they only ever get better over time" blanket that both pod and GSZ fall into. It's not at that power level YET, but as new critters are pinted and new decks are designed to abuse it, it may also get the ban hammer for the exact same reason the others are banned.
Vastly underrated opinion of the card. We most certainly did not have the effect on those cards because they only targeted a limited number of creatures and didn't provide trample. Nor did they add another function like despair does. It is two different mass evasion effects. Sure, it does nothing in some situations but that is the cost of such a powerful card. Those are all big differences that make driven // despair a much better card, even at sorcery speed. I'm actually kind of shocked that each side only costs 2.
Now I doubt it will actually see play because GB is just loaded with ridiculously powerful cards but I believe the power level of that card is above average when compared to what other color combos get.
I mean it's okish, but really, what card are you gonna take out to use this? I guarantee that card you pick is better on its own than Driven // Despair.
Regarding Stifle Pigeon - if it allow your effects to be targeted I think it would counter the Cycle if no other targets were available.
Seriously though if you consider all of the Modern decks we have, on the easy end of the spectrum you have Burn. Tron is way closer to that side than the other side.
If you think Turns is a control deck then I don't think we can have any meaningful discussions about control decks. Gl.
Claim // Fame
This card is going to be a problem for us. It makes their critters discard proof. It goes in every deck that is running critters and black, which is a lot of them. Snapcaster loves this card. In a lot of ways this card is the answer to Fatal Push for creature decks.
It's not all bad though.
-The decks that will use this are also vulnerable to Graveyard hate.
-Rest in Peace and Leyline of the Void will be needed. We may even want to dust off our Grafdiggers.
-GoyfRack can use it for itself
-MythRack can drop pox and use Path to Exile
Furthermore, there ARE control decks in modern. You suffer from the exact mentality I was warning people about earlier. You cannot distinguish control decks from reactive control decks. You are correct when you say there aren't any successful reactive control decks but talking about how bad reactive blue is was the whole point of this thread!! My God man open your eyes.
The green last stand looks playable in UG decks where you can snapcaster it back. Maybe a new BUG deck will be viable! Overall this set is pretty great.
One thing I found surprising while testing goyfrack was how underwhelming Abrupt Decay is. On the surface you would think it would be an auto include 3-4 copies, but its actually a lot worse than Fatal Push in practice because of one thing: It can't hit manlands. Manlands are one of our weaknesses because we have a hard time forcing them to be discarded, and they are also immune to Liliana's edict. It hits chalice set to 0 though, so if you are 100% sure you will face chalice keep them maindeck as you SECONDARY removal. Fatal Push is the primary removal and should get 4 copies.
I'm still laughing at the naysayers on this board that tried to convince me that Fatal Push was a bad card. I said it was the black lightning bolt and get trolled. Currently it's the MOST played card in the entire format, with Path to Exile number 2 and Lightning Bolt way down at number 3. Huh. Imagine that.
I agree with Reapers assessment above. This is a pretty clean list, I a bit surprised you find variance to be one of your top issues, as the deck has a ton of redundancy. One thing I see is 4 smallpox sitting next to 4 wrench mind. I think you can shave a copy of each to open up some more room. If it were me I would keep the urborg count at 4 as well. Try 2x copies of Ensnaring Bridge in those spots, or 2 more removal.
Keep in mind you are going all in on max linearity. You basically have no plan B if they get around your hand destruction. This is certainly a viable way to go, but you will lose games because of it make no mistake. I have always preferred plan B configurations using cards such as Pack Rat and Asylum Visitor.
Of the current spoilers, only Bontu's is a clear winner for 8Rack so far, but it's a really nice card. If that's the only one we get I'll still call it a big win.