1. Without Wasteland to keep them in check they make mana too consistent
2. They introduce far too much unnecessary shuffling
3. Because the combination of Fetches and Shocks is so powerful the fetches effectively prevent other dual lands from seeing play, which reduces diversity by limiting the ways that players can construct their decks.
4. It would remove a huge barrier to entry without ruining standard with 2 years of fetches and shuffling.
Wizards should have banned them when the format was created.
If Fetches get banned, then UWR, Pod, Twin (RUG anyway), and Scapeshift die with it, and any hope that Esper and Grixis had of reaching the big leagues get's crushed. Every 3 color mana base completely folds to Blood Moon.
If WOTC bans fetches they may as well sign the death certificate of modern, as all the players who have invested in these decks, in what is supposed to be a stable and non-rotating format, will just quit.
Reprinting the Onslaught fetches is the most likely course of action, but reprinting Zendikar would be great too. A reprint will drop the prices (not as much as people hope though) and, assuming the reprint is in a standard set, make the lands readily available to all players.
Plenty of 3 color decks will be able to exist without losing to blood moon, but it is true that the format would be different. There is no reason to get that hyperbolic.
The fetches shouldn't be reprinted for standard. The shuffling is terrible and they should be kept far away.
I really don't think I am being hyperbolic at all. If 3 color decks existed after the banning of fetch lands, which I'm sure they still would as people currently enjoy playing them, pretty much a guaranteed way to take down a GP is to just play Skred Red or Blue Moon. Without an early fetch for a basic, the game very often ends. Yes shuffling happens, but I hardly think it is a game-breaking annoyance.
Okay. So they lose to blood moon and the meta shifts back and forth. What's the problem? That said, I think you are overestimating how good Blood Moon would be in this scenario.
1. Without Wasteland to keep them in check they make mana too consistent
2. They introduce far too much unnecessary shuffling
3. Because the combination of Fetches and Shocks is so powerful the fetches effectively prevent other dual lands from seeing play, which reduces diversity by limiting the ways that players can construct their decks.
4. It would remove a huge barrier to entry without ruining standard with 2 years of fetches and shuffling.
Wizards should have banned them when the format was created.
If Fetches get banned, then UWR, Pod, Twin (RUG anyway), and Scapeshift die with it, and any hope that Esper and Grixis had of reaching the big leagues get's crushed. Every 3 color mana base completely folds to Blood Moon.
If WOTC bans fetches they may as well sign the death certificate of modern, as all the players who have invested in these decks, in what is supposed to be a stable and non-rotating format, will just quit.
Reprinting the Onslaught fetches is the most likely course of action, but reprinting Zendikar would be great too. A reprint will drop the prices (not as much as people hope though) and, assuming the reprint is in a standard set, make the lands readily available to all players.
Plenty of 3 color decks will be able to exist without losing to blood moon, but it is true that the format would be different. There is no reason to get that hyperbolic.
The fetches shouldn't be reprinted for standard. The shuffling is terrible and they should be kept far away.
So basically you'd just want a nonfunctional format? Between banning fetches, Bolt, and Goyf Modern would have 500 person GPs.
Goyf would be fine witch fetches, and I never said I wanted to ban bolt.
That "strange MTGO goldfish ranking" is, in fact ranking "which creatures show up in top decks."
Guys, when wizards starts banning cards that arent actually broken just because some people hate them for whatever reason, modern becomes a joke. I mean whats next preord--- oh.
Top decks being defined how?
What is a broken card? Tarmogoyf has a negative impact on the format so I think it should be banned. The fact that it is too expensive for many people to play doesn't mean it isn't busted.
While I do thing those reasons are the reason a decent number of people want goyf banned it could also do with the sheer large amount goyf in the format. I kinda view it like ponder or preordain. The cards arent overpowered but they can lean the format to blue. Goyf does a similar thing.
Goyf is only the #6 creature and #17 card in the format. It is not played that much.
I care far more about which creatures show up in top decks than I do about some strange MTGO goldfish ranking. Tarmogoyf is expensive so a lot of players don't have it, but it continues to define the format and probably always will. I'm honestly not sure what you hoped to prove.
1. Without Wasteland to keep them in check they make mana too consistent
2. They introduce far too much unnecessary shuffling
3. Because the combination of Fetches and Shocks is so powerful the fetches effectively prevent other dual lands from seeing play, which reduces diversity by limiting the ways that players can construct their decks.
4. It would remove a huge barrier to entry without ruining standard with 2 years of fetches and shuffling.
Wizards should have banned them when the format was created.
If Fetches get banned, then UWR, Pod, Twin (RUG anyway), and Scapeshift die with it, and any hope that Esper and Grixis had of reaching the big leagues get's crushed. Every 3 color mana base completely folds to Blood Moon.
If WOTC bans fetches they may as well sign the death certificate of modern, as all the players who have invested in these decks, in what is supposed to be a stable and non-rotating format, will just quit.
Reprinting the Onslaught fetches is the most likely course of action, but reprinting Zendikar would be great too. A reprint will drop the prices (not as much as people hope though) and, assuming the reprint is in a standard set, make the lands readily available to all players.
Plenty of 3 color decks will be able to exist without losing to blood moon, but it is true that the format would be different. There is no reason to get that hyperbolic.
The fetches shouldn't be reprinted for standard. The shuffling is terrible and they should be kept far away.
Goyf definitely deserves a spot on the ban list. The combination of Goyf and Bolt would be really hard for aggressive decks to deal with even if Modern wasn't a combo heavy format, and Goyf warps green decks around itself in a way that is unhealthy. The fact that it's a huge barrier to entry is another reason to want it gone as well. Note that I have a playset of future sight goyfs so this isn't sour grapes.
1. Without Wasteland to keep them in check they make mana too consistent
2. They introduce far too much unnecessary shuffling
3. Because the combination of Fetches and Shocks is so powerful the fetches effectively prevent other dual lands from seeing play, which reduces diversity by limiting the ways that players can construct their decks.
4. It would remove a huge barrier to entry without ruining standard with 2 years of fetches and shuffling.
Wizards should have banned them when the format was created.
Some of the reprints and some cards with barely any Standard applications (Eidolon of Rhetoric) show that there is at least marginal concern at Wizards towards formats other than Standard.
1st part: Wizards have proven themselves to be VERY concerned with EDH and trying to make cards for it, so they should follow through with Modern soon (And Theros was an example of them wanting to do a Limited Set).
2nd: Well, it's just good business sense to listen to your customers.
All future sets will be "limited sets." Limited is one of the most popular formats, and it sells packs for obvious reasons. Let's just say there is more than reason that Limited is represented at every Pro Tour. Additionally, Wizards has been making cards with Modern in mind. The 2/2 flash flyer from M15 and many other cards are clear examples. The problem is that it is hard to make cards that have a big impact on modern without harming standard
None because Suspend-1 and sorcery speed is a very significant draw back.
Exactly the point, but he seems to think if we had Sorcery Bolt it would be too powerful.
Has nothing to do with power. A sorcery speed bolt would be weaker then a lot of burn spells, yet be good enough for the majority of burn decks. I want some flexibility in building, not having every red deck build be exactly the same. Wotc is paying attention to consistency, we really dont need a red deck so consistent we have people talking about banning cards from it.
No. No it would not. 1 mana for 3 damage to a creature or player is busted level good and that will still be true even if the spell in question is a sorcery. Aggro decks have enough trouble as it is, and allowing decks to play 8 bolts would make them completely unplayable. Bolt itself already oppresses them.
Larger card pool, non rotating, means more decks, more decks almost always means more skill is needed in side boarding and meta gaming.
The reason Standard changes so much is every 12 ish weeks there are ~250 cards infused into the format. Decks that once had an upper hand have been nullified, so there is a shift in the meta. Anyone that has played Standard competitively for any time understands this.
Where the ~250 cards effect Standard in that way, maybe 1 or 2 make it into Modern because of the power level of the format. With the bigger cards pool Modern has better options from older sets the majority of times.
That all being said, I would say Modern is much more skill intensive then Standard.
You say a lot of things bocephus, and none of them are ever supported by evidence or logical reasoning. That is why I do not address you most of the time.
I understand that that logic isn't your argument and others have also raised a similar perspective, not necessarily claiming it as their own. It is a terrible argument regardless of the source though. If Wizards want to sell packs, they will require a mass of worthy cards in each set for people to justify spending the money on the booster lottery.
If Wizards are claiming that the Pro Tour sells packs because it is Standard format then it would follow the logic that the Journey Block Pro Tour sells Theros Block packs - It didn't. If there are good cards in a set not only will it sell itself, but it can be showcased at a Modern PT in the same way that Pro Tour RTR was Modern and featured a tonne of new RTR cards. The problem is that there are only a few tier 2 decks that aren't RTR block heavy. All of the top decks are M14/RTR Block heavy. Take the M14 & RTR Block cards out of Mono Blue Devotion and you're left with around 10 cards. Mono Black Devotion? 15 cards. GW Aggro? 15 cards. UW Control? 7 or so cards.
This isn't to say that rotation will see the end of these archetypes or that Khans won't bring other great cards and new archetypes, but the fact that there are no tier 1 decks in standard that can even exist similarly to their current builds shows just how poor the design of the set is. Wizards may argue that the player base has failed to take advantage of the gems that they have hidden throughout the set, but the pros and the brewers share some pretty serious levels of collective intelligence and skill and would have discovered if something is broken and abusable. Instead we have had the same 3 top tier decks for over 9 months, with only RW Burn having moved from a fringe deck to a genuine tier 1 deck. A further example of this is that Craig Wescoe's GW deck that he took to the M15 PT closely resembles the deck he won Block PT Dragon's Maze with over 12 months ago.
This is one of the worst standards in history though, so I don't think your argument is a good reason to say that the pro tour shouldn't be standard focused. Standard shifts, and sometimes there are real problems. That does not mean that Standard isn't a better format to feature in general. It rather obviously is.
I disagree. Yes, Standard is a good format to feature (in a business sense) because it promotes the latest and greatest the most, but Modern is also a great format to feature for two reasons:
1. It shows Magic at a far "higher" and more diverse level, which is great to remind people who still have their collections but haven't been in the Standard loop for a while why they love this game and should "come back" to it more actively - in short: A Modern Pro Tour is great to get "inactive" players to return, which also sells packs !
Higher in what sense? I don't think Modern is more skill intensive than most Standard formats, and it certainly isn't as skill intensive as Limited or Legacy. It's a stale format filled with midrange combo decks like Twin and Melira pod. Secondly, getting people back into Magic to play Modern actually doesn't make Wizards much money. I don't think that would happen much anyway, but that is not Wizard's goal.
2. It puts the "C" (collectible) back into the CCG that is Magic, it builds trust that - even if most of the cards lose most of their value - players can still happily hold on to their Sphinx's Revelations, Mutavaults, Thoughtseizes, Shocklands etc. and not lose much value in the long run ! Yes, this would still be true without a Modern Pro Tour, but a Modern Pro Tour puts this fact into the spot light !
Also: I disagree that this Standard season was especially bad, it had quite a bit of diversity in archetypes, only the innovation was lacking until PT M15. It's just that watching Standard all the time gets dull - because Standard can only change so much - and now we'll have an entire year of only Standard Pro Tours all the time, which will get incredibly dull.
Your opinion on this standard is noted, but I just think you are wrong. Standard is almost never this stale and the decks change much more than this most of the time. A lot of pros agree with me, and although that does not make me right in and of itself you should rethink your position. Factually speaking this cannot be compared to most standard seasons from the past.
Modern PTs were easily my favorite to watch, they just showed off how much "bigger" than Standard Magic as a whole is, how much more diverse, how much crazier and "out there". The match between Dickmann and Pardee to make the Top 8 of Pro Tour Born of the Gods alone speaks volumes !
I know a lot of people like modern, but "I like x" is not a reason for Wizards to feature it. I like Limited, but we won't see a limited only pro tour top 8 in the near future.
In my opinion, the skill level in Modern is much higher than in Standard, simply because there are a lot more decks out there that you need to know how to stop, if you can race them, etc. It's all much more complex than Standard (just the amount of possible sideboard options alone makes your head spin, for example).
I think you can't compare not getting a Limited only PT to Modern getting axed entirely. You get plenty of Limited goodness every single Pro Tour !
The skill ceiling in standard varies from format to format, but in general I think you are wrong. A lot of the Modern metagame remains the same, the decks aren't that hard to play, and I don't really buy that it's hard to know how to sideboard in powerful hate cards. In the case of the pro tour a new standard format requires a lot of metagaming, deck building, and the ability to adapt to unforeseen situations.
I understand that that logic isn't your argument and others have also raised a similar perspective, not necessarily claiming it as their own. It is a terrible argument regardless of the source though. If Wizards want to sell packs, they will require a mass of worthy cards in each set for people to justify spending the money on the booster lottery.
If Wizards are claiming that the Pro Tour sells packs because it is Standard format then it would follow the logic that the Journey Block Pro Tour sells Theros Block packs - It didn't. If there are good cards in a set not only will it sell itself, but it can be showcased at a Modern PT in the same way that Pro Tour RTR was Modern and featured a tonne of new RTR cards. The problem is that there are only a few tier 2 decks that aren't RTR block heavy. All of the top decks are M14/RTR Block heavy. Take the M14 & RTR Block cards out of Mono Blue Devotion and you're left with around 10 cards. Mono Black Devotion? 15 cards. GW Aggro? 15 cards. UW Control? 7 or so cards.
This isn't to say that rotation will see the end of these archetypes or that Khans won't bring other great cards and new archetypes, but the fact that there are no tier 1 decks in standard that can even exist similarly to their current builds shows just how poor the design of the set is. Wizards may argue that the player base has failed to take advantage of the gems that they have hidden throughout the set, but the pros and the brewers share some pretty serious levels of collective intelligence and skill and would have discovered if something is broken and abusable. Instead we have had the same 3 top tier decks for over 9 months, with only RW Burn having moved from a fringe deck to a genuine tier 1 deck. A further example of this is that Craig Wescoe's GW deck that he took to the M15 PT closely resembles the deck he won Block PT Dragon's Maze with over 12 months ago.
This is one of the worst standards in history though, so I don't think your argument is a good reason to say that the pro tour shouldn't be standard focused. Standard shifts, and sometimes there are real problems. That does not mean that Standard isn't a better format to feature in general. It rather obviously is.
I disagree. Yes, Standard is a good format to feature (in a business sense) because it promotes the latest and greatest the most, but Modern is also a great format to feature for two reasons:
1. It shows Magic at a far "higher" and more diverse level, which is great to remind people who still have their collections but haven't been in the Standard loop for a while why they love this game and should "come back" to it more actively - in short: A Modern Pro Tour is great to get "inactive" players to return, which also sells packs !
Higher in what sense? I don't think Modern is more skill intensive than most Standard formats, and it certainly isn't as skill intensive as Limited or Legacy. It's a stale format filled with midrange combo decks like Twin and Melira pod. Secondly, getting people back into Magic to play Modern actually doesn't make Wizards much money. I don't think that would happen much anyway, but that is not Wizard's goal.
2. It puts the "C" (collectible) back into the CCG that is Magic, it builds trust that - even if most of the cards lose most of their value - players can still happily hold on to their Sphinx's Revelations, Mutavaults, Thoughtseizes, Shocklands etc. and not lose much value in the long run ! Yes, this would still be true without a Modern Pro Tour, but a Modern Pro Tour puts this fact into the spot light !
Also: I disagree that this Standard season was especially bad, it had quite a bit of diversity in archetypes, only the innovation was lacking until PT M15. It's just that watching Standard all the time gets dull - because Standard can only change so much - and now we'll have an entire year of only Standard Pro Tours all the time, which will get incredibly dull.
Your opinion on this standard is noted, but I just think you are wrong. Standard is almost never this stale and the decks change much more than this most of the time. A lot of pros agree with me, and although that does not make me right in and of itself you should rethink your position. Factually speaking this cannot be compared to most standard seasons from the past.
Modern PTs were easily my favorite to watch, they just showed off how much "bigger" than Standard Magic as a whole is, how much more diverse, how much crazier and "out there". The match between Dickmann and Pardee to make the Top 8 of Pro Tour Born of the Gods alone speaks volumes !
I know a lot of people like modern, but "I like x" is not a reason for Wizards to feature it. I like Limited, but we won't see a limited only pro tour top 8 in the near future.
I understand that that logic isn't your argument and others have also raised a similar perspective, not necessarily claiming it as their own. It is a terrible argument regardless of the source though. If Wizards want to sell packs, they will require a mass of worthy cards in each set for people to justify spending the money on the booster lottery.
If Wizards are claiming that the Pro Tour sells packs because it is Standard format then it would follow the logic that the Journey Block Pro Tour sells Theros Block packs - It didn't. If there are good cards in a set not only will it sell itself, but it can be showcased at a Modern PT in the same way that Pro Tour RTR was Modern and featured a tonne of new RTR cards. The problem is that there are only a few tier 2 decks that aren't RTR block heavy. All of the top decks are M14/RTR Block heavy. Take the M14 & RTR Block cards out of Mono Blue Devotion and you're left with around 10 cards. Mono Black Devotion? 15 cards. GW Aggro? 15 cards. UW Control? 7 or so cards.
This isn't to say that rotation will see the end of these archetypes or that Khans won't bring other great cards and new archetypes, but the fact that there are no tier 1 decks in standard that can even exist similarly to their current builds shows just how poor the design of the set is. Wizards may argue that the player base has failed to take advantage of the gems that they have hidden throughout the set, but the pros and the brewers share some pretty serious levels of collective intelligence and skill and would have discovered if something is broken and abusable. Instead we have had the same 3 top tier decks for over 9 months, with only RW Burn having moved from a fringe deck to a genuine tier 1 deck. A further example of this is that Craig Wescoe's GW deck that he took to the M15 PT closely resembles the deck he won Block PT Dragon's Maze with over 12 months ago.
This is one of the worst standards in history though, so I don't think your argument is a good reason to say that the pro tour shouldn't be standard focused. Standard shifts, and sometimes there are real problems. That does not mean that Standard isn't a better format to feature in general. It rather obviously is.
Red is quite overdrafted in MTGO 8-4s, and I disagree strongly that it can support 4 drafters well. The fact that a card is "playable" does not mean that it is good. My strategy for the format is to only enter red if I see something truly great, such as a lightning strike or a cone of flame. I will pass the 2/2 intimidate guy for a slightly weaker card gladly if it means I can avoid red.
Okay. So they lose to blood moon and the meta shifts back and forth. What's the problem? That said, I think you are overestimating how good Blood Moon would be in this scenario.
Wizards prints a vanilla 20/20 for 1 mana. Fair card? Yes or no?
Top decks being defined how?
What is a broken card? Tarmogoyf has a negative impact on the format so I think it should be banned. The fact that it is too expensive for many people to play doesn't mean it isn't busted.
I care far more about which creatures show up in top decks than I do about some strange MTGO goldfish ranking. Tarmogoyf is expensive so a lot of players don't have it, but it continues to define the format and probably always will. I'm honestly not sure what you hoped to prove.
The fetches shouldn't be reprinted for standard. The shuffling is terrible and they should be kept far away.
1. Without Wasteland to keep them in check they make mana too consistent
2. They introduce far too much unnecessary shuffling
3. Because the combination of Fetches and Shocks is so powerful the fetches effectively prevent other dual lands from seeing play, which reduces diversity by limiting the ways that players can construct their decks.
4. It would remove a huge barrier to entry without ruining standard with 2 years of fetches and shuffling.
Wizards should have banned them when the format was created.
All future sets will be "limited sets." Limited is one of the most popular formats, and it sells packs for obvious reasons. Let's just say there is more than reason that Limited is represented at every Pro Tour. Additionally, Wizards has been making cards with Modern in mind. The 2/2 flash flyer from M15 and many other cards are clear examples. The problem is that it is hard to make cards that have a big impact on modern without harming standard
No. No it would not. 1 mana for 3 damage to a creature or player is busted level good and that will still be true even if the spell in question is a sorcery. Aggro decks have enough trouble as it is, and allowing decks to play 8 bolts would make them completely unplayable. Bolt itself already oppresses them.
You say a lot of things bocephus, and none of them are ever supported by evidence or logical reasoning. That is why I do not address you most of the time.
The skill ceiling in standard varies from format to format, but in general I think you are wrong. A lot of the Modern metagame remains the same, the decks aren't that hard to play, and I don't really buy that it's hard to know how to sideboard in powerful hate cards. In the case of the pro tour a new standard format requires a lot of metagaming, deck building, and the ability to adapt to unforeseen situations.
Higher in what sense? I don't think Modern is more skill intensive than most Standard formats, and it certainly isn't as skill intensive as Limited or Legacy. It's a stale format filled with midrange combo decks like Twin and Melira pod. Secondly, getting people back into Magic to play Modern actually doesn't make Wizards much money. I don't think that would happen much anyway, but that is not Wizard's goal.
Your opinion on this standard is noted, but I just think you are wrong. Standard is almost never this stale and the decks change much more than this most of the time. A lot of pros agree with me, and although that does not make me right in and of itself you should rethink your position. Factually speaking this cannot be compared to most standard seasons from the past.
I know a lot of people like modern, but "I like x" is not a reason for Wizards to feature it. I like Limited, but we won't see a limited only pro tour top 8 in the near future.
This is one of the worst standards in history though, so I don't think your argument is a good reason to say that the pro tour shouldn't be standard focused. Standard shifts, and sometimes there are real problems. That does not mean that Standard isn't a better format to feature in general. It rather obviously is.