Ancient Den (The Artifact lands make Affinity too powerful, they need to stay banned.) Batterskull (I still maintain that SFM is not too broken without Batterskull, it would also help Thopter Sword out.) Blazing Shoal (Too fast, and there is nothing else that would stop the deck.) Chrome Mox (Free acceleration is too good and Chrome Mox would enable too many turn 3 wins with decks such as Splinter Twin) Deathrite Shaman (With Scavenging Ooze in the format, we have no need of another maindeck graveyard-hater. It is pushing graveyard-based decks out of the format, it allows 4 color manabases (Ajundi) to be made too easily, and it is what pushed Jund over the top in the first place.) Dread Return (It makes Dredge a little too fast.) Glimpse of Nature (It makes Combo Elves too fast.) Grapeshot (It would help slow down Storm to a reasonable level and make it much more vulnerable to removal.) Great Furnace (See Ancient Den.) Green Sun's Zenith? (I'm on the fence on this one.) Hypergenesis (Too fast, too powerful, too broken.) Jace, the Mind Sculptor (Too powerful.) Mental Misstep (Would warp the format horribly and it would be run in almost every deck.) Ponder (While both Ponder and Preordain shouldn't have been banned, one of them needed to be and Ponder is more powerful than Preordain.) Punishing Fire (Ruins small creatures.) Rite of Flame (One ritual from Storm needed to be banned, and this one was played in the least amount of other decks.) Seat of the Synod (See Ancient Den.) Skullclamp (Broken as can be.) Thespian's Stage (Dark Depths would be inconsistent without Thespian's Stage, and it would help keep 8-Post at reasonable levels.) Tree of Tales (See Ancient Den.) Umezawa's Jitte (Would hurt aggro and would be too powerful with Stoneforge Mystic.) Vault of Whispers (See Ancient Den.) Vesuva (12-Post was too powerful, 8-Post was fine. If Vesuva was banned, Cloudpost could come off.)
Some of this I agree with most of it I don't I agree with Skullclamp,Jitte,Punishing,Chrome Mox and Hypergenisis, the others I don't and I'll explain why.
The artifact lands: Affinity isn't that good anyway and the artifact lands would only make it slightly better but it would also put it at a disadvantage in terms of making any artifact hate the other player has better.
Ponder: Neither ponder or preordain needed to be banned and neither one should be it was a silly ban, there is no reason for it.
Dread Return: With all the hate that has been printed and especially in newer sets Dredge would be anything but broken, in fact I would say it wouldn't even be that good and since there are yard hate cards in mainboards already
I really don't think this is necessary to be on the banned list.
Mental Misstep: Modern doesn't revolve around 1 mana cards like other formats do, it mostly revolves around 2 drops so this would be acceptable to come off the ban list I think it would give some decks a tool they would want like the UX tempo decks, it would give them a tool against the most prevalent removal cards, but it wouldn't brake anything I don't think.
Cloudpost: Ok I'll give you that right now these are pretty broken and until some answers are printed I don't think it should come off BUT what I think needs to happen is something akin to wasteland that doesn't suck as bad as tectonic edge should be printed to hose these THEN I think this should come off.
Rite of Flame:Storm wasn't broken the thing is no one wanted to play the hate cards that were very prevalent.
Green Sun's Zenith: this card is meh it's good but not broken it grabs good creatures but the thing is you only get green creatures and you have to spend oodles of mana on it limiting how good this thing can be now if this was Natural Order or Survival of the fittest then yea it would be WAY too good for modern.
Stoneforge Mystic: This one isn't a problem it's a creature just kill it before it drops the equip,counter it or destroy the equipment.
As for the ones you listed that aren't banned already I've either already listed reasons why I don't think they should be banned already or I shouldn't have to.
Still red sligh not being relevant doesn't have anything to do with the thesis of your argument it doesn't exist and I would go even further than that by saying that since it existed was clearly an aggro deck it dissproves your point.
The problem is that in actuality, there are no archetypes, only philosophies of play.
A deck isn't aggro, or control. It's a deck. It may be piloted in an aggro or control fashion depending on what they're running, who they're facing and how the whole beatdown/control dynamic plays out.
1. what is your source that jund was "more hated" than dredge/faeries? Unless you have a quote, or something, that seems pretty much your opinion, which means nothing when you're trying to say, "By MY opinion, they should/shouldn't have done this by their policy"
2. what is your source for combo being 50%+ of the meta (which you keep throwing around).
3. they also banned caw-blade (which actually is the most hated deck, according to wizard's bans and associated discussion on tourney attendance, given how they treated it in standard) very thoroughly, so your main complaint seems to be that a deck that was hated in standard, but brought very few standard cards to the modern version was left unbanned.
You realize Jund's extended/modern Engine then was "Goyf, thoughtseize, Bob, plus good cards" more than it was "BBE + Blightniing + Bittyblast," right? Like, BBE was in the deck. It would have been a deck with or without BBE (it might have been GB, like we're seeing now, it might have been Doran or another Junk deck, it might have been BUG, but BGx was a deck because you had bob and goyf).
Like, right now, are you seriously arguing that dredge, which put up dominating (at times) numbers in extended too, and faeries, which was a top extended deck is the same as Jund, where you're playing Bob/Goyf more than you're playing BBE?
Or are you arguing that they should have banned cards from modern for any unpopular standard color combination? "Well, modern jund runs... basically BBE from the standard version, but we should probably ban bob and goyf... people might be reminded of standard jund!"
If you want to know if those cards/decks would be fine in the meta? Probably. Would they possibly (not certainly, but is it possible?) have a negative effect on tournament attendance?
From WOTC's view, apparently, so there isn't much point in pushing for them to be unbanned unless you have a reason that fits their logic. For example, the one point I agreed with was that Sword could probably make a return, given the GY hate we have, and given that it wasn't a dominant and hated deck for a huge period of time, although it certainly smashed people in that one extended season, so it just may be off the table. Like, I don't think Sword of the Meek is that widely disliked, but maybe I'm wrong, but I'd be willing to discuss it. It might just be "too good" though, if you can prettttyyy much just squeeze it, thirst, and foundry into current UWR lists, or UW Tron lists, and kill people out of nowhere at a relatively low cost.
a deck or card not being liked is NOT a reason to ban it as that is a HIGHLY subjective thing, power level of the card is not because the card in question can be tested in actual play there is NO way to actually test how "hated" a card is therefore it shouldn't be a factor in deciding a ban.
As was said by ness subjectivity is not a part of an objective plan also he was dead on when he said that UWR, the only "control" deck in the format is not a control deck but a tempo deck.
Just like others in this thread have said GOD IS the right word as this set is based upon
Greco-Roman mythology to an extent and the gods in that mythology were almost always gods and not gods and goddesses,it only is in other religions such as Christianity and Judaism that the distinction is made, And yes it is sexist to make that distinction in the first place.
I'm pretty sure that's exactly what people are arguing and the only reason I've been playing devil's advocate this entire time. I've constantly pointed out that I believe this card to be good. It's only when people start comparing it to BSA/Thundermaw (beyond the obvious fact that it's a 5CMC core set mythic) that I've felt the need to speak up and explain why that's not the case.
I also still can't stress enough just how good Baneslayer was in her setting and I feel like your totally discounting this fact. There's something to be said for a card that essentially deterred the entire meta from attacking into her when she hit the board but could also go on the offensive just as easily. For instance, she shut down Jund's aerial game which was rather dominate at the time. Point is, when she hit the board you got everything you were going to get for your five mana investment. She didn't take time to get online and give you a ROI.
I also still can't stress enough just how good Baneslayer was in her setting and I feel like your totally discounting this fact. There's something to be said for a card that essentially deterred the entire meta from attacking into her when she hit the board but could also go on the offensive just as easily. For instance, she shut down Jund's aerial game which was rather dominate at the time. Point is, when she hit the board you got everything you were going to get for your five mana investment. She didn't take time to get online and give you a ROI.[/QUOTE]
This man knows his stuff, I couldn't put it better myself but let me try Baneslayer Angel put your opponent into a spot that if they didn't have removal they were screwed it didn't need haste it didn't need anything to BE the board when it was played not be on the board it was the board anything you did up to that point was negated simply by her presence, this isn't close to that this is an ok attacker that may win the game IF you give it haste as unlike some of the other examples like thundermaw or hellrider it doesn't have haste naturally and unlike thragtusk it doesn't do anything when it enters or leaves the battlefield.
In other words like DTG has been saying this thing is good but not good ENOUGH, look no ones telling anyone not to play this card but don't be surprised if it loses you a game/games because of being generally terrible against any kind of removal, oh and baneslayer was only good for her time then they printed the titans.
This seems fine, though kind of hard to read the list, you should change it to sections of at least card type. Splitting it by card usage would be even better.[QUOTE]
Ok thank you, I fixed it.
[QUOTE]What is your meta like? What generals are you up against?
I don't know I play on cockatrice so the meta is whatever people want to play I guess.
What are your reasons for not playing mana elves?
They help speed out all of those fun midrangey cards./[QUOTE] manadorks aren't really the kind of thing your looking for in a jund deck they aren't very efficient and they lose value in the mid-late game when you have lots of lands so a lot of the time they are dead draws.
skullclamp is a really good card but besides tokens who would you really like to put it on? the creatures I run are all very high impact and most have more than 1 toughness and then the ones that do are like dark confidant and grim lavamancer so they're not very good for clamping it's the same reason I don't run jitte.
This seems fine, though kind of hard to read the list, you should change it to sections of at least card type. Splitting it by card usage would be even better.
[QUOTE]What is your meta like? What generals are you up against?
I don't know I play on cockatrice so the meta is whatever people want to play I guess.
What are your reasons for not playing mana elves?
They help speed out all of those fun midrangey cards.[QUOTE] manadorks aren't really the kind of thing your looking for in a jund deck they aren't very efficient and they lose value in the mid-late game when you have lots of lands so a lot of the time they are dead draws.
skullclamp is a really good card but besides tokens who would you really like to put it on? the creatures I run are all very high impact and most have more than 1 toughness and then the ones that do are like dark confidant and grim lavamancer so they're not very good for clamping it's the same reason I don't run jitte.
Ok so I went ahead and separated the cards into type I felt that there were a lot of cards that did more than 1 thing so I didn't want to do that but thanks for the help guys, I don't know if i like birthing pod here but I can try it I guess, also SAUS yea I really don't ever play my commander unless I know I can get in for the kill with him so most of the time he just sits there but there aren't any really amazing leaders for jund so I guess that's ok after all I don't ever have to play him if I don't need him.
Some of this I agree with most of it I don't I agree with Skullclamp,Jitte,Punishing,Chrome Mox and Hypergenisis, the others I don't and I'll explain why.
The artifact lands: Affinity isn't that good anyway and the artifact lands would only make it slightly better but it would also put it at a disadvantage in terms of making any artifact hate the other player has better.
Ponder: Neither ponder or preordain needed to be banned and neither one should be it was a silly ban, there is no reason for it.
Dread Return: With all the hate that has been printed and especially in newer sets Dredge would be anything but broken, in fact I would say it wouldn't even be that good and since there are yard hate cards in mainboards already
I really don't think this is necessary to be on the banned list.
Mental Misstep: Modern doesn't revolve around 1 mana cards like other formats do, it mostly revolves around 2 drops so this would be acceptable to come off the ban list I think it would give some decks a tool they would want like the UX tempo decks, it would give them a tool against the most prevalent removal cards, but it wouldn't brake anything I don't think.
Cloudpost: Ok I'll give you that right now these are pretty broken and until some answers are printed I don't think it should come off BUT what I think needs to happen is something akin to wasteland that doesn't suck as bad as tectonic edge should be printed to hose these THEN I think this should come off.
Rite of Flame:Storm wasn't broken the thing is no one wanted to play the hate cards that were very prevalent.
Green Sun's Zenith: this card is meh it's good but not broken it grabs good creatures but the thing is you only get green creatures and you have to spend oodles of mana on it limiting how good this thing can be now if this was Natural Order or Survival of the fittest then yea it would be WAY too good for modern.
Stoneforge Mystic: This one isn't a problem it's a creature just kill it before it drops the equip,counter it or destroy the equipment.
As for the ones you listed that aren't banned already I've either already listed reasons why I don't think they should be banned already or I shouldn't have to.
Also would you say that there is no such thing as a Methodist because it's a very narrow definition of the christian religion?
Still red sligh not being relevant doesn't have anything to do with the thesis of your argument it doesn't exist and I would go even further than that by saying that since it existed was clearly an aggro deck it dissproves your point.
Well this is BS if I've ever heard it you don't think that mono red sligh is an aggro deck?
?
Then what is it?
When would you be playing defense in such a deck?
Or how about UW control?
that deck is clearly a combo deck right?
And TES or ANT is a control deck right?
a deck or card not being liked is NOT a reason to ban it as that is a HIGHLY subjective thing, power level of the card is not because the card in question can be tested in actual play there is NO way to actually test how "hated" a card is therefore it shouldn't be a factor in deciding a ban.
As was said by ness subjectivity is not a part of an objective plan also he was dead on when he said that UWR, the only "control" deck in the format is not a control deck but a tempo deck.
Aww dat's cute.
It's not a control deck though,it's closer to prison which as said before is a completely different archetype.
Look I'm not saying destroy aggro or combo just let a control deck that ISN'T UWR have a chance to shine.
And what does counterspell have to do with legacy? It's hardly ever seen and if it is it's like a 1-2 of.
BTW voted for other,this is other
Counterspell UU
Counter target spell.
Simple,Useful very good yet not broken and could make an impact on the format, I would really appreciate this.
Greco-Roman mythology to an extent and the gods in that mythology were almost always gods and not gods and goddesses,it only is in other religions such as Christianity and Judaism that the distinction is made, And yes it is sexist to make that distinction in the first place.
I also still can't stress enough just how good Baneslayer was in her setting and I feel like your totally discounting this fact. There's something to be said for a card that essentially deterred the entire meta from attacking into her when she hit the board but could also go on the offensive just as easily. For instance, she shut down Jund's aerial game which was rather dominate at the time. Point is, when she hit the board you got everything you were going to get for your five mana investment. She didn't take time to get online and give you a ROI.[/QUOTE]
This man knows his stuff, I couldn't put it better myself but let me try Baneslayer Angel put your opponent into a spot that if they didn't have removal they were screwed it didn't need haste it didn't need anything to BE the board when it was played not be on the board it was the board anything you did up to that point was negated simply by her presence, this isn't close to that this is an ok attacker that may win the game IF you give it haste as unlike some of the other examples like thundermaw or hellrider it doesn't have haste naturally and unlike thragtusk it doesn't do anything when it enters or leaves the battlefield.
In other words like DTG has been saying this thing is good but not good ENOUGH, look no ones telling anyone not to play this card but don't be surprised if it loses you a game/games because of being generally terrible against any kind of removal, oh and baneslayer was only good for her time then they printed the titans.
skullclamp is a really good card but besides tokens who would you really like to put it on? the creatures I run are all very high impact and most have more than 1 toughness and then the ones that do are like dark confidant and grim lavamancer so they're not very good for clamping it's the same reason I don't run jitte.
skullclamp is a really good card but besides tokens who would you really like to put it on? the creatures I run are all very high impact and most have more than 1 toughness and then the ones that do are like dark confidant and grim lavamancer so they're not very good for clamping it's the same reason I don't run jitte.