I really don't think that its that big of an issue. One this deck uses Aether Vial in all formats where it is legal which it is in modern. Two Vexing Shusher can help push out creatures so its good in the sideboard. Three Grand Abolisher can effectively shut counter magic down provided it can be protected, also good sideboard material.
I do agree there are some issues based on a lack of diversity in CMC, however other popular and strong decks, for example small zoo has this problem but with one drops. I don't think the existence of Mental misstep has been a problem with Zoo at all and I don't think Hatebears will suffer so greatly from spell snare that it won't function.
and what about Engineered Explosives? when i started testing this archetype a month ago i kept losing to EE. teeg helps, but any burn or removal fixes that
Elves currently isnt overpowered? You are living under a rock.
The best Elves list in Modern is modified 2008-2009 Elves list + better kill finisher, which means its a turn 2-3kill almost all the time or it puts itself in such a good position it most definitely wins on turn 4...
Yes elves is overpowered, but is it a problem? no. look at data from old extended. 6 of the top 8 decks at pro tour berlin were elves, and both non-elf decks lost in the quarterfinals. people wanted something to be done about it, and wizards did nothing. why? because the metagame fixed itself. people started playing cards that beat elves, and elves became just another deck. the same will be true in modern. as soon as the format was announced, i built an elf list and started testing it. at first i was winning almost all of my games, and then people started playing sb hate, and now its just another list.
Dredge, currently without GGT, is getting along fine, its broken compared to the rest of the decks available, except the more broken Elves and Hypergenesis. Its only about 20% slower because GGT is being replaced by GThug.
calling it broken is an exaggeration. its a solid list, but its far from broken.
Honestly, Torm seems to be the only one who actually fully understands what Im talking about is based on previous experiences from 2006-2010 Extended seasons.
i started playing extended shortly after GP LA and have played it almost exclusively since then. from that experience, i can say that bannings are not necessary. the format has plenty of answers for these decks that most decks can play.
i agree that the artifact lands should be unbanned, but as for most of the other decisions, i disagree with. i can understand the desire to ban hypergenesis so i wont argue that point, but as for the rest, i have some issues.
Glimpse of Nature: Elves was just another deck in old extended. it won some high profile tournaments, but the metagame always responded by hating it out of the format and shortly thereafter it would be just another list. i dont think anything from the deck needs any bannings.
Bridge from Below: once again, another combo deck that i dont think needs to be hated out of the metagame. yes its a solid combo deck and very fast, but combo is good for the format, especially combos that actually require skill to play (aka anything not named hypergenesis). one of the reasons i think dredge was so good beyond its raw power was the fact that nobody ever tests against it. everyone always assumes a few extirpates or a relic of progenitus in the sideboard are going to be enough to win the matchup and dont test. then they actually play vs dredge and lose because the good dredge players know how to play around those cards. moral of the story TEST AGAINST DREDGE.
Disciple of the Vault/Arcbound Ravager: i think if you unban the artifact lands, then one of these should get banned, and im leaning towards disciple, but not both. once again, i think its good to have an aggro deck in the format that is as fast as the combos, so unbanning the artifact lands and banning disciple seems right to me.
I'm sorry am I missing something here ? I've been playing modern since it has been released as a format and have not played against any hypergenesis decks at all.
Same here. the first few weeks after the format was announced i saw alot of them, but since then people seem to be trying to branch out and find other archetypes. its not a deck that needs alot of work or testing to be able to win with, but its certainly one that you need to test against (until it gets banned). if you do not have a gameplan against it, you will lose to it, but if you manage to get your answers to it before they combo off, chances are you will win easily
affinity isnt terribly bad in this format. there have been several instances where i was playing vs or using affinity and won on turn 3, and frogmite is still good, enforcer though is a bit tough to cast regularly.
Boom//bust, not sold on destroying my own lands. Adding white? Forget about it. Not doing it.
try playing white, its incredible. it allows you to boom/bust on turn 2 without slowing yourself down at all, allows you to play a rather large Knight of the Reliquary, and gives you access to cards like Lightning Helix, Ajani Vengeant, and even Path to Exile. path might sound out of place in a LD deck, but once you've destroyed a few of their lands your so far ahead anyway that it doesnt even matter, and its very good vs zoo.
any chance someone will ever start a thread involving SFM without it eventually becoming a debate about the best 2-drop in modern?
i agree with cbus, this list just scoops to punishing fire. fire is just fantastic vs mystic decks because it deals with almost all creatures mystic decks play, kills walkers, and provides a late-game wincon, all while being essentially uncounterable and providing incredible CA. and the decks that have it also should have ancient grudge in the sideboard, and thats pretty good vs mystic also.
about dredge: its still a fantastic deck. everyone assumes that its dead now without the grave-troll, but what Jhoira said about it is spot on.
Gotta use loam. the card is excellent at allowing you to quickly recover from sacrificing lands to smallpox and deathcloud. and a singleton Worm Harvest goes a long way in that type of deck
the problem with the card is the once per turn clause. as it sits now, its like a weak putrid leech. it forces you to use up your own mana and keep you off your curve, and gives your opponent the ability to just respond with a burn spell and hose your plan. the card isnt terrible, but its not good either
My playgroup is going to start playing Modern, and I decided it was time to shell out for Goyfs and build Zoo. I tested this list a bit against Scepter-Chant, and I liked the way it played out. Going to test against other decks as they pop up in the meta. Here's the list I used:
1 of the Knights will become the 4th Goyf when I find it, and were're going to cut the Vials for either Punishing Fire or Lightning Helix. The sideboard is undetermined at the moment.
Thoughts?
go with the punishing fires. aether vial is nice, but punishing fire just wrecks so many decks in the format.
and what about Engineered Explosives? when i started testing this archetype a month ago i kept losing to EE. teeg helps, but any burn or removal fixes that
i'm primarily a combo player who has played extended almost exclusively for the last few years.
Yes elves is overpowered, but is it a problem? no. look at data from old extended. 6 of the top 8 decks at pro tour berlin were elves, and both non-elf decks lost in the quarterfinals. people wanted something to be done about it, and wizards did nothing. why? because the metagame fixed itself. people started playing cards that beat elves, and elves became just another deck. the same will be true in modern. as soon as the format was announced, i built an elf list and started testing it. at first i was winning almost all of my games, and then people started playing sb hate, and now its just another list.
calling it broken is an exaggeration. its a solid list, but its far from broken.
i started playing extended shortly after GP LA and have played it almost exclusively since then. from that experience, i can say that bannings are not necessary. the format has plenty of answers for these decks that most decks can play.
Glimpse of Nature: Elves was just another deck in old extended. it won some high profile tournaments, but the metagame always responded by hating it out of the format and shortly thereafter it would be just another list. i dont think anything from the deck needs any bannings.
Bridge from Below: once again, another combo deck that i dont think needs to be hated out of the metagame. yes its a solid combo deck and very fast, but combo is good for the format, especially combos that actually require skill to play (aka anything not named hypergenesis). one of the reasons i think dredge was so good beyond its raw power was the fact that nobody ever tests against it. everyone always assumes a few extirpates or a relic of progenitus in the sideboard are going to be enough to win the matchup and dont test. then they actually play vs dredge and lose because the good dredge players know how to play around those cards. moral of the story TEST AGAINST DREDGE.
Disciple of the Vault/Arcbound Ravager: i think if you unban the artifact lands, then one of these should get banned, and im leaning towards disciple, but not both. once again, i think its good to have an aggro deck in the format that is as fast as the combos, so unbanning the artifact lands and banning disciple seems right to me.
too late, hypergenesis and elves already have emrakul.
Same here. the first few weeks after the format was announced i saw alot of them, but since then people seem to be trying to branch out and find other archetypes. its not a deck that needs alot of work or testing to be able to win with, but its certainly one that you need to test against (until it gets banned). if you do not have a gameplan against it, you will lose to it, but if you manage to get your answers to it before they combo off, chances are you will win easily
try playing white, its incredible. it allows you to boom/bust on turn 2 without slowing yourself down at all, allows you to play a rather large Knight of the Reliquary, and gives you access to cards like Lightning Helix, Ajani Vengeant, and even Path to Exile. path might sound out of place in a LD deck, but once you've destroyed a few of their lands your so far ahead anyway that it doesnt even matter, and its very good vs zoo.
i agree with cbus, this list just scoops to punishing fire. fire is just fantastic vs mystic decks because it deals with almost all creatures mystic decks play, kills walkers, and provides a late-game wincon, all while being essentially uncounterable and providing incredible CA. and the decks that have it also should have ancient grudge in the sideboard, and thats pretty good vs mystic also.
about dredge: its still a fantastic deck. everyone assumes that its dead now without the grave-troll, but what Jhoira said about it is spot on.
go with the punishing fires. aether vial is nice, but punishing fire just wrecks so many decks in the format.