Again, I wasn't talking about only trashing other people's plays. You are talking about situations that happen once and awhile, not every single time. We probably have different understandings about what he is doing, but my interpretation of the situation is that he rarely wins, and when he does it is in an irritating way. But even that is subjective; my friend and I were playing, and I had Rafiq set up for a one hit kill on the very next turn. I was running with no basic forests on the field, and I dropped one since I drew it, without even thinking. I knew I shouldn't, I was playing his elf deck and he has a few different things he threw in that deck specifically to shut Rafiq down. He saw what I did, and dropped Eladamri, and then cast Triumph of the Hordes and hit me with everything he had. It was still pretty early in the game, and it drives me nuts sometimes that he specifically throws things in his deck to deal with mine, except... Wait, isn't that part of the fun of the game? He won, fair and square, and even if I wanted the game to keep going for awhile longer, that doesn't make his win any less valid. Same thing with this guy, even if he wins in a way that we don't like, you can't invalidate his win. He won, move on, adapt to deal with it, and play again. It is much more sportsmanlike to congratulate him on his victory and play again, especially if the guy doesn't win very often. If you don't win a lot, every win counts.
I never understood the whole "if I am not winning, i am not having fun" way to play EDH. Seems to defeat the purpose of the game itself.
My friend and I have the resources and cards to play any EDH deck we feel like on a given saturday. Most of the time we shuffle up a big stack of 2 and 3 color generals and draw one then go with that.
Case in point this week, we are playing at a 4 player game and I have moat in hand. I know that if I slap moat down, the Krenko player will just sit there with his thumb up his rear end until the game ends or moat is destroyed (unlikely considering the other 2 decks). I choose not to play the moat, and eventually, the Krenko player recovers from a few wrath effects to steal the game. An impressive win for him in fact and an enjoyable game for all. Moat is in the deck to stop titans generating insane card advantage or eldrazi...not to crap on a person's whole deck.
Also, Sheldon, I summon thee to weigh in on the Banlist thread as to why Protean Hulk is banned but Tooth and Nail is not.
Two mana makes a world of difference...As well as the fact that protean hulk is a creature. Mainly the creature part to be honest. So many more ways to abuse a creature than a 9 mana sorcery.
Coffers is only really good in Mono-black. It can be used in two-color, but with less efficiency.
Any deck with G/B can reasonably run it. Even blue can make it work with trinket mage and tolaria west. Red seems to have a hard time putting it together though...
Dont forget that a foil Koth was going for insane bucks when the venser vs koth decks first got announced, now you can pick one up for nothing. The illusion that magic cares about prices on reprints is a myth perpetuated by people who make no decisions within wizards design teams. The fact that people want to argue that it does, even in the face of said design teams saying they dont care squat about the secondary market (why would they--- they make NO money from it), just makes me sad.
If anything, I think this has more to do with the standard metagame than anything else.
If there is always something that will decrease the price of the non-foil but increase the price of the pack foil, its wizards releasing a "premium" foil version of that card. Xiahou dun is a nice case in point, instead of driving the $100 price of the original down, for every $25 the judge foil dropped, the english pack xiahou went up the same amount.
A foil has to be unique to retain value if it is a premium foil. Either by being the only foiling of that card, having interesting art (not always a saving grace), or given a different border from the original.
She died to just about every removal in my 360 cube. There just isnt anything to cut in the first place...and she seems counterintuitive for the various W/x aggro build that usually develop.
I finally thought I would put my cube up here to get some feedback and for reference for myself and others at my shop that want to check it out. I feel the cube is pretty tight but I am slowly and surely supporting artifact.dec in the cube. Also that needs to be done is me bite the bullet and switch out jace 3 for tezz.
Card choices-
No Black Lotus: This is my personal preference and I might put one back in one day. To be honest, I just dont like the variance of Lotus.
Gifts Given: This card, though a serious beating, always tends to lead to interesting situations and game states as well as increasing the overall skill cap of the cube (if only slightly).
Alpha Orcish Artillery: Because red needed a two drop like this. Something with a little more bite than a Fireslinger...
Cube Size: 360 Cards
Breakdown: 50 Each Color, 50 Colorless, 60 Guild
Average Draft: 2 or 6-8 players, 1-2 times/week
Card Selection
Powered: Yes
Portal: Yes
"Un-" Cards: Yes, the single Gifts Given. Also, in the same category is the alpha Orcish Artillery. It is played as the misprinted 2CC version rather than the beta and up 3CC version.
I mean there is nine elementals, that really doesn't seem to be tribal. The majority of the deck looks pretty 5cGoodStuff.dec to me. Probably add more Elementals to be able to use Horde of Notions more?
hah, I forgot the most important one!
But really, there are not too many other strong ones. The purity, dread, etc line does not play well with horde of notions. And more often than not, the clones come down as elementals as well.
How can you possibly compare a small business to a single magic card? Lets look at it like this-- if you got lucky and paid $4 for a black lotus back in the day and now its worth $400 and you sold it-- that would be a pretty much best case scenario for magic.$360 after years of holding onto something. In that case--- sure, good investment. You got lucky. But most magic cards dont follow that trend. Instead, chart out the value of all the cards and you will see most cards spike in value when a set its first legal, then a huge drop in value once it rotates out, with a few recovering a little later on if the card rotates back into a format-- and very, very, very few ever hanging onto their value, let alone seeing an increase. When you buy a magic card, you have no real history to go on with that card and what it will do. All you know is that your odds are not very good that what youre buying will keep its value or increase.
With investing, you can look at that specific company. You can know what they do, what market share they control, you can get an idea of their performance, future business outlook, etc. You know what you're putting your money into. Ontop of that, most stocks trend upwards. Even with swings, values tend to increase making them good long term investments.
I was one of the few lucky ones. When duals rotated out of extended and the revised ones tanked to $5-7 each, I decided to get into type one and nabbed up 3 full playsets on the cheap, trading away most of my type 2 collection to get them. I had cards for me, my friend and cousin to try out whatever decks we wanted then, no arguing over who got the seas.
Long story short, they quit, I went to college, kept my cards in my room. Got back into magic after legacy had exploded and all of a sudden my duals were pushing between 50-120 bucks a pop! I was quite surprised and a little shocked to be honest (not to mention things like my mana drains, force of wills, CANDELABRAS and TABERNACLES [wtf was up with those prices? the candelabras were like 10 cards])
I sold off a playset this past year and built a 360 powered cube. I sold off another playset and got into EDH.
But to stay on topic, seeing magic as an investment is a bit on the wild side. I see them more as just commodities in a highly fluctuating and unpredictable market.
This deck was my answer to my friends complaint that tribal sucks in EDH. While not strictly a tribal deck, I did put emphasis around my general and the use of his abilities :).
Outside of money consideration:
2nd - Wind Drake, you're passing 3 exalted cards and 2 red cards, leaving you open for a nice blue deck, on power level the Knight is better and if you want to force exalted the Cathedral is better, but i would slam pick the Drake and run with it.
I take that cathedral like nothing. Easy, non committal pick that can go into any deck. Whats not to like about a first pick?
I would retort by saying that you can't just mindlessly vomit whatever cards you want without response. Magic is not a game of purely positives and never will be (no matter what sort of things they try and do to change it). I'm sorry but the "I can only have fun by no one stopping me" argument does not hold water and in fact makes you look like you don't know what you're doing. (in general not just directed at you.
which is why people consider spot removal/mass removal/counters as acceptable responses while land destruction and hand destruction are frowned upon. One deals with problems, the other inhibits the ability to play/enjoy the game. I dont care about winning, but I do care about being able to participate in interesting board states.
of which an important one is Expedition Map
I never understood the whole "if I am not winning, i am not having fun" way to play EDH. Seems to defeat the purpose of the game itself.
My friend and I have the resources and cards to play any EDH deck we feel like on a given saturday. Most of the time we shuffle up a big stack of 2 and 3 color generals and draw one then go with that.
Case in point this week, we are playing at a 4 player game and I have moat in hand. I know that if I slap moat down, the Krenko player will just sit there with his thumb up his rear end until the game ends or moat is destroyed (unlikely considering the other 2 decks). I choose not to play the moat, and eventually, the Krenko player recovers from a few wrath effects to steal the game. An impressive win for him in fact and an enjoyable game for all. Moat is in the deck to stop titans generating insane card advantage or eldrazi...not to crap on a person's whole deck.
Two mana makes a world of difference...As well as the fact that protean hulk is a creature. Mainly the creature part to be honest. So many more ways to abuse a creature than a 9 mana sorcery.
Any deck with G/B can reasonably run it. Even blue can make it work with trinket mage and tolaria west. Red seems to have a hard time putting it together though...
If anything, I think this has more to do with the standard metagame than anything else.
If there is always something that will decrease the price of the non-foil but increase the price of the pack foil, its wizards releasing a "premium" foil version of that card. Xiahou dun is a nice case in point, instead of driving the $100 price of the original down, for every $25 the judge foil dropped, the english pack xiahou went up the same amount.
A foil has to be unique to retain value if it is a premium foil. Either by being the only foiling of that card, having interesting art (not always a saving grace), or given a different border from the original.
Thank you very much.
Card choices-
No Black Lotus: This is my personal preference and I might put one back in one day. To be honest, I just dont like the variance of Lotus.
Gifts Given: This card, though a serious beating, always tends to lead to interesting situations and game states as well as increasing the overall skill cap of the cube (if only slightly).
Alpha Orcish Artillery: Because red needed a two drop like this. Something with a little more bite than a Fireslinger...
Cube Size: 360 Cards
Breakdown: 50 Each Color, 50 Colorless, 60 Guild
Average Draft: 2 or 6-8 players, 1-2 times/week
Card Selection
Powered: Yes
Portal: Yes
"Un-" Cards: Yes, the single Gifts Given. Also, in the same category is the alpha Orcish Artillery. It is played as the misprinted 2CC version rather than the beta and up 3CC version.
Any "Banned" Cards: No
Cube Design
Standard or Multiplayer: Standard
Proxies: No
Functional Reprints?: Yes
Perfect Creature/Non-Creature Balance: No
1 Elite Vanguard
1 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
1 Mother of Runes
1 Savannah Lions
1 Steppe Lynx
1 Student of Warfare
//2CC
1 Accorder Paladin
1 Cloistered Youth
1 Kor Skyfisher
1 Lone Missionary
1 Soltari Monk
1 Soltari Priest
1 Soltari Trooper
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Wall of Omens
1 Blade Splicer
1 Exalted Angel
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Mirror Entity
1 Silverblade Paladin
1 Soltari Champion
//4CC
1 Hero of Bladehold
1 Kor Sanctifiers
1 Restoration Angel
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Cloudgoat Ranger
1 Reveillark
//6CC
1 Sun Titan
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Land Tax
1 Mana Tithe
1 Path to Exile
1 Swords to Plowshares
//2CC
1 Balance
1 Disenchant
1 Journey to Nowhere
1 Ajani, Caller of the Pride
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Spectral Procession
//4CC
1 Ajani Goldmane
1 Armageddon
1 Day of Judgment
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Moat
1 Ravages of War
1 Wrath of God
1 Gideon Jura
//6CC
1 Catastrophe
1 Looter il-Kor
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Waterfront Bouncer
//3CC
1 Man-o'-War
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Serendib Efreet
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Willbender
1 Dungeon Geists
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
//5CC
1 Meloku the Clouded Mirror
1 Morphling
1 Mulldrifter
1 Faeri Conclave
1 Force of Will
//1CC
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Force Spike
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ponder
1 Preordain
//2CC
1 Arcane Denial
1 Counterspell
1 Impulse
1 Mana Drain
1 Mana Leak
1 Miscalculation
1 Remand
1 Time Walk
1 Capsize
1 Crystal Shard
1 Forbid
1 Intuition
1 Jace Beleren
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
//4CC
1 Control Magic
1 Cryptic Command
1 Deep Analysis
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Gifts Given
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Jace, Memory Adept
1 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
1 Treachery
//6CC
1 Time Spiral
1 Upheaval
1 Carnophage
1 Diregraf Ghoul
1 Gravecrawler
1 Sarcomancy
1 Vampire Lacerator
//2CC
1 Bloodghast
1 Dark Confidant
1 Dauthi Horror
1 Nantuko Shade
1 Nezumi Graverobber
1 Oona's Prowler
1 Vampire Hexmage
1 Bone Shredder
1 Hypnotic Specter
1 Vampire Nighthawk
//4CC
1 Braids, Cabal Minion
1 Nekrataal
1 Skinrender
//5CC
1 Ob Nixilis, the Fallen
1 Shriekmaw
1 Grave Titan
//8CC
1 Tombstalker
1 Snuff Out
1 Volrath’s Stronghold
//1CC
1 Dark Ritual
1 Duress
1 Imperial Seal
1 Innocent Blood
1 Reanimate
1 Thoughtseize
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Animate Dead
1 Bitterblossom
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Go for the Throat
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Sinkhole
//3CC
1 Buried Alive
1 Grim Tutor
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Necromancy
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Consuming Vapors
1 Damnation
1 Nether Void
//XCC
1 Mind Twist
1 Profane Command
1 Goblin Guide
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Greater Gargadon
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Jackal Pup
1 Mogg Fanatic
1 Spikeshot Elder
1 Stromkirk Noble
//2CC
1 Fireslinger
1 Hellspark Elemental
1 Kargan Dragonlord
1 Keldon Marauders
1 Lightning Mauler
1 Orcish Artillery
1 Plated Geopede
1 Stormblood Berserker
1 Torch Fiend
1 Blistering Firecat
1 Chandra's Phoenix
1 Keldon Vandals
1 Manic Vandal
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
//4CC
1 Avalanche Riders
1 Flametongue Kavu
1 Hellrider
1 Hero of Oxid Ridge
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Zealous Conscripts
//6CC
1 Inferno Titan
1 Fireblast
//1CC
1 Burst Lightning
1 Chain Lightning
1 Faithless Looting
1 Firebolt
1 Lightning Bolt
//2CC
1 Incinerate
1 Magma Jet
1 Pyroclasm
1 Arc Lightning
1 Chaos Warp
1 Char
1 Flames of the Firebrand
1 Molten Rain
1 Staggershock
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Koth of the Hammer
//5CC
1 Chandra Nalaar
//XCC
1 Devil’s Play
1 Earthquake
1 Rolling Earthquake
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Joraga Treespeaker
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Wild Nacatl
1 Wolfbitten Captive
//2CC
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Lotus Cobra
1 River Boa
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Strangleroot Geist
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Wild Mongrel
1 Call of the Herd
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nantuko Vigilante
1 Troll Ascetic
1 Uktabi Orangutan
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Yavimaya Elder
//4CC
1 Chameleon Colossus
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Vengevine
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Acidic Slime
1 Deranged Hermit
1 Genesis
1 Indrik Stomphowler
1 Thornling
1 Vorapede
//7CC
1 Hornet Queen
1 Treetop Village
//1CC
1 Rancor
//2CC
1 Life from the Loam
1 Regrowth
1 Survival of the Fittest
1 Sylvan Library
1 Beast Within
1 Cultivate
1 Kodama's Reach
1 Krosan Tusker
//4CC
1 Bramblecrush
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Plow Under
UB
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Shadowmage Infiltrator
1 Polluted Delta
1 Underground Sea
1 Watery Grave
UG
1 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
1 Mystic Snake
1 Trygon Predator
1 Breeding Pool
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Tropical Island
UW
1 Absorb
1 Celestial Colonnade
1 Venser, the Sojourner
1 Flooded Strand
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Tundra
UR
1 Electrolyze
1 Fire // Ice
1 Prophetic Bolt
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Steam Vents
1 Volcanic Island
BR
1 Bituminous Blast
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Terminate
1 Badlands
1 Blood Crypt
1 Bloodstained Mire
BG
1 Putrid Leech
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Bayou
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Verdant Catacombs
BW
1 Lingering Souls
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Vindicate
1 Godless Shrine
1 Marsh Flats
1 Scrubland
RG
1 Bloodbraid Elf
1 Kird Ape
1 Sarkon Vol
1 Stomping Ground
1 Taiga
1 Wooded Foothills
RW
1 Ajani Vengeant
1 Figure of Destiny
1 Slayers' Stronghold
1 Arid Mesa
1 Plateau
1 Sacred Foundry
GW
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Loam Lion
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Savannah
1 Temple Garden
1 Windswept Heath
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
//2CC
1 Grim Monolith
1 Coalition Relic
1 Masticore
1 Molten-Tail Masticore
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Triskelion
1 Myr Battlesphere
//8CC
1 Sundering Titan
1 Bonesplitter
1 Skullclamp
//2CC
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Grafted Wargear
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Batterskull
1 Cursed Scroll
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sensei's Divining Top
//2CC
1 Winter Orb
1 Scroll Rack
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Mimic Vat
1 Ring of Gix
1 Tangle Wire
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 Smokestack
//7CC
1 Karn Liberated
1 City of Brass
1 Grand Coliseum
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Maze of Ith
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Mishra’s Workshop
1 Mutavault
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Strip Mine
1 Wasteland
Just the idea of a mad orc shaman leading an army of rampaging zombies gives me the tingles :).
hah, I forgot the most important one!
But really, there are not too many other strong ones. The purity, dread, etc line does not play well with horde of notions. And more often than not, the clones come down as elementals as well.
I was one of the few lucky ones. When duals rotated out of extended and the revised ones tanked to $5-7 each, I decided to get into type one and nabbed up 3 full playsets on the cheap, trading away most of my type 2 collection to get them. I had cards for me, my friend and cousin to try out whatever decks we wanted then, no arguing over who got the seas.
Long story short, they quit, I went to college, kept my cards in my room. Got back into magic after legacy had exploded and all of a sudden my duals were pushing between 50-120 bucks a pop! I was quite surprised and a little shocked to be honest (not to mention things like my mana drains, force of wills, CANDELABRAS and TABERNACLES [wtf was up with those prices? the candelabras were like 10 cards])
I sold off a playset this past year and built a 360 powered cube. I sold off another playset and got into EDH.
But to stay on topic, seeing magic as an investment is a bit on the wild side. I see them more as just commodities in a highly fluctuating and unpredictable market.
Suited up in case I feel like switching out shriekmaw :).
I really want to find a way to get a deadeye navigator into there too... and maybe a slithermuse.
1 Avenger of Zendikar
1 Fulminator Mage
1 Shriekmaw
1 Mirror Entity
1 Maelstrom Wanderer
1 Flamekin Harbinger
1 Celestial Force
1 Verdant Force
1 Magnetic Force
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Primeval Titan
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Eternal Witness
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Genesis
1 Skyshroud Claim
1 Nature's Lore
1 Three Visits
1 Farseek
1 Explore
1 Sol Ring
1 Grim Monolith
1 Mana Crypt
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Skullclamp
1 Sensei's Diving Top
1 Necropotence
1 Mirari's Wake
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Future Sight
1 Survival of the Fittest
1 Grim Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Intuition
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Mana Drain
1 Pact of Negation
1 Cryptic Command
1 Time Stop
1 Rite of Replication
1 Tooth and Nail
1 Comet Storm
1 Insurrection
1 Damnation
1 Wrath of God
1 Vindicate
1 Beast Within
1 Decree of Pain
1 Regrowth
1 Austere Command
1 Reiterate
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Recurring Insight
1 Fact or Fiction
10 Dual
10 Fetches
1 of Each Basic
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Grounds
1 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Cabal Coffers
1 Temple of the False God
1 Vesuva
1 Deserted Temple
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Maze of Ith
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Kessig Wolfrun
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Petrified Field
1 Stripmine
This deck was my answer to my friends complaint that tribal sucks in EDH. While not strictly a tribal deck, I did put emphasis around my general and the use of his abilities :).
I take that cathedral like nothing. Easy, non committal pick that can go into any deck. Whats not to like about a first pick?
which is why people consider spot removal/mass removal/counters as acceptable responses while land destruction and hand destruction are frowned upon. One deals with problems, the other inhibits the ability to play/enjoy the game. I dont care about winning, but I do care about being able to participate in interesting board states.