Wow, this is really interesting. I've had Falkenrath Aristocrat on the bench for a few months now, and am looking for any excuse to give her a call up to the big leagues. On the other hand, Olivia has been nothing but a monster for us, taking control of games that its owner had no business still participating in. Any kind of game that goes long tends to get dominated by Olivia, and the mere threat of her bite.
Has Falkenrath Aristocrat performed well in your BR aggro decks? Or has Olivia just been underwhelming in midrange and control, in your experience?
Huh. A little bit surprised at how high Taurean Mauler is on the list, compared to some of the other good red three drops. I'd never even considered this card for cube, but maybe it's worth a glance. How has this card been for your group?
450, and 14 equipment. Flayer Husk, Basilisk Collar, and Loxodon Warhammer are the ones I have in addition to your 11.
For what it's worth, the equipment package we run has nothing to do with Stoneforge Mystic. These cards are all legitimately strong enough to include on their own. Stoneforge puts them over the top, of course, but any green / red aggro deck would be happy to pack a Jitte + Sword, for example. Aggro decks often need that extra punch to break through creatures stalemates, or to punish do-nothing control decks, and equipment goes a long way towards solving that problem.
Edit:
If you've got 11 equipment, that means each drafter should see approximately 11 / 450 * 45 = 1.1 pieces of equipment per draft. Your friend probably just got unlucky, as normally you would average just a hair over one piece per person.
I had very good experiences with Frenzied Goblin in the MTGO cube with my red aggro decks. It should be noted that the official cube is slow as molasses, so Faltering an opponent's best blocker every turn made for a big game. The goblin was never the flashiest card in my deck, nor the most powerful, but as one of those lunch-pail pluggers, I appreciated all the hard work he did.
I've got him in my actual 450 cube as well, which has a decidedly more aggro slant to it. While I've barely seen him in action there, I suspect he'll be merely passable. Probably borderline, and a card I'll cut when I see a stronger 1-drop printed.
Thanks for all the great feedback, everyone. Your arguments were very convincing. I just went and cut Mystic Snake from my cube.
*ducks and runs*
Okay, okay. Let me back up for a second. I didn't start this thread to troll anyone, and I see why everyone thinks so highly of this card. I also better understand why it's never worked for us.
I run a bit of an odd duck cube. It's Modern (but not really Modern, as it's got Stoneforge Mystic and Jace, the Mind Sculptor and some other miscellany, but I digress). As such, the colour identity skews a bit differently from your typical Vintage cube. Reanimator in black is a lame duck strategy at best, green has very few card draw and recursion options, and blue has only so many repeatable bounce effects. In general, the graveyard as a zone isn't nearly as abusable as in typical cubes. As I mentioned above, our heavy blue decks don't typically reach out to green for help. Control decks like the removal and attrition of black, while tempo decks like the versatility of white and the reach of red. Green, unfortunately, just isn't the eye candy that blue fancies.
It looks like Mystic Snake is rightfully a staple in pretty much any normal cube. I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything with regards to why it underperformed for us, and the myriad interactions you've listed allayed my doubts.
I know this is a fairly popular card, and a staple in Peasant and Pauper cubes. Does it have any place in regular cubes?
I had this for the first time in my deck last week, and found it slow and ungainly. I'd somehow tricked myself into thinking that the convoke would make the casting cost cheaper over time, but really, you're still tapping five of something for one token, whether they be lands or creatures. I found it difficult to do this while maintaining any kind of pressure on the opponent.
Thanks for the feedback - very much appreciated, guys. I'll try just Rude Awakening for now, as I'm not sure I want to pull the trigger on a nine mana spell quite yet. If that experiment goes well, the case for Tooth and Nail will be that much stronger.
Avenger of Zendikar is in no danger of leaving my cube, but I think I'll swap out Cloudthresher for Hornet Queen. I put in ol' tentacle head thinking green could appreciate a big, vanilla beater, but for whatever reason it never got shuffled into our packs. I'm thinking a swarm of angry bees not only blocks better, but could punch through damage faster too.
Green ramp is a supported archetype in my cube, and I'm looking to boost the number of finishers available to it. I want to play at least one of the two, and could be persuaded to put in both.
On a related note, Hornet Queen seems to be picking up in popularity. I haven't tried it, because frankly it looks terrible on paper, compared to something like Avenger of Zendikar (which, to be honest, read terribly on first glance too). But it sounds like this card plays better than it reads. I don't have much support for reanimator - is Hornet Queen still worthwhile?
I know that folks here are pretty high on Mystic Snake, as being one of the top two or three U/G cards. My playgroup has never really gotten him to work, though, so I'm considering cutting him from my Modern cube. But I wanted to consider people's thoughts and feedback first.
In our drafts, we find that G/x decks can often benefit from a splash of blue, for tempo, counters, and various other shenanigans. A card with a UU casting cost is a bit of a tough sell in these decks, though. On the other hand, the U/x tempo decks that we build very rarely want green. These decks are usually better off splashing red for direct damage, or white for efficient bodies and utility. Green just doesn't bring enough to the table to be considered.
A card like Mystic Snake, with its uneven colour balance, finds itself in a tough spot, as it ideally wants to be played in U/g tempo. But that's not an archetype that appears for us in practice. How well does this card work for you? What types of decks do people have the best experience jamming him in?
Yeah, Tooth and Nail immediately came to mind after watching the entirety of that draft video. In every situation where Travis was casting Genesis Wave, he needed a specific creature to show up. Tooth and Nail would definitely have been more reliable.
There's something to be said about the unbridled excitement and joy of casting a Wave for 8. That said, for actual power and consistency, Tooth and Nail should take the cake every time.
I totally know what you mean about the kick. I'm watching Travis Woo's MTGO cube draft over on CFB right now. "It's not so much about winning, as it is generating a massive overkill."
I'm really tempted to put it in my own cube now, too, but common sense keeps pulling me back to reality. I think it works so well in the MTGO cube because that one's large and relatively low powered, usually leading to slow, grindy games. It probably wouldn't fare well in the typical smaller, tight lists, where aggro could overrun you before you got the chance to set up a sweet wave for six.
I agree with Reuben in the Facebook thread at the bottom of the article. Goblin Guide is way more important to the mono red archetype than Koth is. There's quite a few good finishers at 4 cmc, but only one critter than hits your opponent for 2 before their first land drop.
Is Tattermunge Maniac cube-worthy? I've been on the fence a few times about including him, but the drawback seems so rough that I've always erred on the side of benching him.
Edit: Regarding Siege-Gang Commander, I actually find LSV's strategy works well for me: leave him in the sideboard, and bring him against creature-heavy decks where you expect a ground stall. Keeps the maindeck svelte and trim, until you need him.
I had this guy in my U/B control deck last week, and on average, he brought back about one creature each time I played him. I didn't have too many other "must kill" creatures in my deck, so the Lich usually ended up eating a piece of removal the turn after I dropped him. That said, as long as I had some open mana right after casting him, it was a surefire way to eek out extra value.
Like eidolon, I replaced Nemesis of Reason with the Lich. I think after a few drafts, I can safely say that the power level of Nemesis is a fair bit higher in a limited environment. The Lich feels like a much more interesting and interactive card, though, so we're willing to leave him in for a while.
larger groups. you're more likely to get the pieces you need to make the deck in question if you have more packs to look at. legacy style burn is just not remotely draftable in winston and very, very unlikely in 4 man drafts. once you get up to 6 and 8 man drafts, i'd expect the card to see more play if at least one person in your group actively pursues that deck. in your case i think it's probably a good include. i'd definitely test it at the least.
Excellent point. I see where the source of disagreement from most folks is coming from now. Yeah, this card would probably suck hard in a head to head!
Wow, this is really interesting. I've had Falkenrath Aristocrat on the bench for a few months now, and am looking for any excuse to give her a call up to the big leagues. On the other hand, Olivia has been nothing but a monster for us, taking control of games that its owner had no business still participating in. Any kind of game that goes long tends to get dominated by Olivia, and the mere threat of her bite.
Has Falkenrath Aristocrat performed well in your BR aggro decks? Or has Olivia just been underwhelming in midrange and control, in your experience?
Huh. A little bit surprised at how high Taurean Mauler is on the list, compared to some of the other good red three drops. I'd never even considered this card for cube, but maybe it's worth a glance. How has this card been for your group?
For what it's worth, the equipment package we run has nothing to do with Stoneforge Mystic. These cards are all legitimately strong enough to include on their own. Stoneforge puts them over the top, of course, but any green / red aggro deck would be happy to pack a Jitte + Sword, for example. Aggro decks often need that extra punch to break through creatures stalemates, or to punish do-nothing control decks, and equipment goes a long way towards solving that problem.
Edit:
If you've got 11 equipment, that means each drafter should see approximately 11 / 450 * 45 = 1.1 pieces of equipment per draft. Your friend probably just got unlucky, as normally you would average just a hair over one piece per person.
I've got him in my actual 450 cube as well, which has a decidedly more aggro slant to it. While I've barely seen him in action there, I suspect he'll be merely passable. Probably borderline, and a card I'll cut when I see a stronger 1-drop printed.
*ducks and runs*
Okay, okay. Let me back up for a second. I didn't start this thread to troll anyone, and I see why everyone thinks so highly of this card. I also better understand why it's never worked for us.
I run a bit of an odd duck cube. It's Modern (but not really Modern, as it's got Stoneforge Mystic and Jace, the Mind Sculptor and some other miscellany, but I digress). As such, the colour identity skews a bit differently from your typical Vintage cube. Reanimator in black is a lame duck strategy at best, green has very few card draw and recursion options, and blue has only so many repeatable bounce effects. In general, the graveyard as a zone isn't nearly as abusable as in typical cubes. As I mentioned above, our heavy blue decks don't typically reach out to green for help. Control decks like the removal and attrition of black, while tempo decks like the versatility of white and the reach of red. Green, unfortunately, just isn't the eye candy that blue fancies.
It looks like Mystic Snake is rightfully a staple in pretty much any normal cube. I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything with regards to why it underperformed for us, and the myriad interactions you've listed allayed my doubts.
I know this is a fairly popular card, and a staple in Peasant and Pauper cubes. Does it have any place in regular cubes?
I had this for the first time in my deck last week, and found it slow and ungainly. I'd somehow tricked myself into thinking that the convoke would make the casting cost cheaper over time, but really, you're still tapping five of something for one token, whether they be lands or creatures. I found it difficult to do this while maintaining any kind of pressure on the opponent.
Please provide your input!
Avenger of Zendikar is in no danger of leaving my cube, but I think I'll swap out Cloudthresher for Hornet Queen. I put in ol' tentacle head thinking green could appreciate a big, vanilla beater, but for whatever reason it never got shuffled into our packs. I'm thinking a swarm of angry bees not only blocks better, but could punch through damage faster too.
Green ramp is a supported archetype in my cube, and I'm looking to boost the number of finishers available to it. I want to play at least one of the two, and could be persuaded to put in both.
On a related note, Hornet Queen seems to be picking up in popularity. I haven't tried it, because frankly it looks terrible on paper, compared to something like Avenger of Zendikar (which, to be honest, read terribly on first glance too). But it sounds like this card plays better than it reads. I don't have much support for reanimator - is Hornet Queen still worthwhile?
I know that folks here are pretty high on Mystic Snake, as being one of the top two or three U/G cards. My playgroup has never really gotten him to work, though, so I'm considering cutting him from my Modern cube. But I wanted to consider people's thoughts and feedback first.
In our drafts, we find that G/x decks can often benefit from a splash of blue, for tempo, counters, and various other shenanigans. A card with a UU casting cost is a bit of a tough sell in these decks, though. On the other hand, the U/x tempo decks that we build very rarely want green. These decks are usually better off splashing red for direct damage, or white for efficient bodies and utility. Green just doesn't bring enough to the table to be considered.
A card like Mystic Snake, with its uneven colour balance, finds itself in a tough spot, as it ideally wants to be played in U/g tempo. But that's not an archetype that appears for us in practice. How well does this card work for you? What types of decks do people have the best experience jamming him in?
There's something to be said about the unbridled excitement and joy of casting a Wave for 8. That said, for actual power and consistency, Tooth and Nail should take the cake every time.
I'm really tempted to put it in my own cube now, too, but common sense keeps pulling me back to reality. I think it works so well in the MTGO cube because that one's large and relatively low powered, usually leading to slow, grindy games. It probably wouldn't fare well in the typical smaller, tight lists, where aggro could overrun you before you got the chance to set up a sweet wave for six.
Is Tattermunge Maniac cube-worthy? I've been on the fence a few times about including him, but the drawback seems so rough that I've always erred on the side of benching him.
Edit: Regarding Siege-Gang Commander, I actually find LSV's strategy works well for me: leave him in the sideboard, and bring him against creature-heavy decks where you expect a ground stall. Keeps the maindeck svelte and trim, until you need him.
Like eidolon, I replaced Nemesis of Reason with the Lich. I think after a few drafts, I can safely say that the power level of Nemesis is a fair bit higher in a limited environment. The Lich feels like a much more interesting and interactive card, though, so we're willing to leave him in for a while.
Excellent point. I see where the source of disagreement from most folks is coming from now. Yeah, this card would probably suck hard in a head to head!