This comes up from time to time in my EDH group, and I want to make sure we're playing this correctly.
If Eternal Witness is in my library, and I search for it with Wargate or Chord of Calling or Green Sun's Zenith, will the spell I used to tutor it out be a legit target for the witness's recursion ability? That is, can I cast wargate for 3, get eternal witness, and then return the wargate to my hand with the witness?
Same question, but this time with, say Living Death. If I cast living death with a witness in the graveyard, can I return the living death to my hand when the witness comes into play?
FYI, we've been playing as though the answer is NO to both scenarios, and that the spells in question only end up in the graveyard after the witness' ability has finished... but we've always been a little sketchy.
If I have Mikaeus, the Unhallowed in play, and I sacrifice Arcbound Ravager to itself, moving the counters with modular onto Mikaeus or some other creature, does the undying see the ravager as having had no +1/+1 counters? Or does undying check the state of the ravager at the moment it died? Thanks in advance for clarifying this for me.
Thanks a bunch, everyone! I'm glad I wasn't the only one who thought it worked that way. Any historians out there know whether it ever used to work the way I, and apparently "i_am_brucelee" thought it worked? Or have I just been playing wrong for ~1.5 decades? ;-)
It's my first main phase. I say "move to my combat step?" as a question. My opponent says "Tap your Spirit," and uses his priest to do so.
My question is simple: are we still in my first main phase? Can I play my warlord now, and then attack with it? Is there any way to phrase my intention to pass priority to my opponent, to give him a chance to use his priest on my spirit, which will result in our remaining in my first main phase should he take the bait?
I guess I'm unclear on how "entering combat" works, because at FNM recently the judge told me that by saying "move to my combat step?" as a question, when my opponent then tapped my spirit, we were officially beyond my first main phase, and were within the combat phase. This was contrary to my understanding, so please set me straight.
Dream Halls - to clarify, the spells must be colored... i.e., you cannot discard a land to cast an artifact? No Eldrazi shenanigans here? I'm guessing no.
Also, is this the place to ask EDH-centric rules questions? Can I use dream halls to cast my general from the command zone? If not, can you tell me instead whether I could use Dram Halls to play a face down exiled card from, say, praetor's grasp?
Whoa nelly... last night, piloting my Arcanis the Omnipotent deck against The Mimeoplasm, Sliver Queen, and Zedruu the Greathearted, I tapped down to 4 to play time stretch, and had the goods to make it go infinite on my first bonus turn... I was on the cusp of victory, when the Zedruu pilot cast Wild Ricochet, took four turns in a row, each involving blasting his own stuffy doll with nin, the pain artist, drawing damn near the rest of his deck. He put me out of my misery on the spot, and ended up killing all three of the rest of us in fairly short order.
I still feel like the pyromancer ascension builds have the advantage of being able to transition into the archive trap combo. But this is pure theorycraft. Has anyone tried this? Spellskite does little to thwart either the pyro combo, or the transitional milling plan. Anyone?
If you still feel like hating on the deck, remember that one HUGE appeal of this strategy is the pricetag. In a world of Jace The Wallet Sculptor, those of us who are kids, or who have kids, gotta find the path of least re$i$tance, if you catch my drift. If you ranked decks with a ratio of effectiveness : pricetag, this deck would rank high.
Okay, that said, I'm curious whether anyone has feelings about Treasure Hunt / Halimar Depths? Also, there's some splash bonus with Preordain I suppose. I'm assuming the hunts would take the place of See Beyond. It's marginal, but I feel like treasure hunt should be able to average you more cards than the consistent 2 of the See Beyond?
Lastly, is there any reason to want Mindbreak Trap in the side for the mirror? I think Mental Misstep is probably the best, plus the side is pretty tight I think... but I figured I'd throw it out there.
I really like the idea of trapmaker's snare / Archive trap in the side. But I also like the idea of Splinter Twin / Deceiver Exarch. Plus, I personally want to have room for Slagstorm in the side too... I see pyroclasm in a lot of lists, and I dig that since it's cheaper, but I think the flexibility of slagstorm will push it over the edge, since it can hit the players if you need it to, plus if you double it, you can do 3 to the creatures, and 3 to the players, or 6 to either... you can kill a baneslayer, etc., or bring down a Big Jace... lots more flexibility than pyroclasm will ever have.
So yeah, I'm thinking of the following sideboard right now, but plan to play with mindbreak trap and archive trap at some point:
Perhaps you have to choose targets when the ability is announced?
I am neither a judge nor an expert (which is why I'm here, after all), but that phrase seems familiar... it looks like I'll want some clarification on this new scenario though. Do you choose the two creatures when you activate Arena, or when it resolves?
(EDIT) Oops... missed that reply. Thanks Archonoid!
Bennie Smith's article here includes the following quote:
Quote from "Bennie Smith" »
Then, as a flash of inspiration I added Arena; Norin could jump in the Arena, tapping down a creature an opponent controls, put damage on the stack and then play an instant to have Norin slip out the back door to avoid the consequences.
I'm wondering if this is still the case post-M10 rules changes... the article may well be older.
The question is whether activating Arena, choosing Norin and another creature, then playing an instant with Arena on the stack will end up resolving with the creature taking damage and Norin returning to his owner's battlefield at EOT.
Thanks in advance!
BTW, my guess is no. I suspect that Norin will be RFG... err... 'Exiled' by the time the Arena resolves, and will thus not deal any damage to the other creature.
500 players in MODO isn't equivalent to real-world PTQs primarily because we're talking about a global pool of players.
If the wizards model is successful, then are you of the opinion that nothing is wrong with the PTQ system? "If it ain't broke, don't fix it?" That sort of thing?
Hahaha. Awesome quote. But don't forget that the MTGSalvation forum isn't necessarily a representative sampling of PTQ attendees.
Obviously (OBVIOUSLY) you go to a Pro Tour QUALIFIER, to try and qualify. That's obviously goal #1.
But there are tons of players, like me, who understand that our own chances of being #1 that day are slim. And the majority of PTQ attendees are in this boat. We have to ask ourselves whether playing "for the competition" or whatever, is worth it.
Now, if hefty prizes went down to 16th place, it stands to reason more folks like me would show up, since hey, even if I don't win, I can still walk away with some packs.
Consider this: why must the TO lose their (allegedly) slim profit margin to support these hypothetical increased prizes we're talking about? Imagine that WotC sent an additional case of product solely for use as bonus prizes to each PTQ? What then? Would you still contend that this would have no effect on attendance?
It seem that the people arguing that more prizes wouldn't mean better attendance are taking this (IMO illogical) stance mostly because they want to defend the TOs against what they perceive as Smennen's unfair attack on their monopoly.
So remove the TO from the equation. Yeah, Smennen has argued that competition would be better, and this is free market capitalist economic dogma... it's hard to deny Adam Smith. (For the record, I'm not sure that there's enough potential competitors, at least in my area, Albuquerque NM, to fill the void, even if competition were allowed... Glen Goddard is pretty much the only show in town, and entry into that market is pretty high... you have to buy tons of product to get competitive wholesale pricing, etc...) But for the moment, ignore the TOs. Let's assume the Godfather here, WotC, would be responsible for the extra prizes. What then? Still think more prizes wouldn't mean better turnout?
I think it's interesting that there are these incentives to artificially control the supply of Magic cards. Once a set is designed, magic cards are like coca-cola... they cost pennies to manufacture. But who is served by keeping the supply so low? What would it hurt for WotC to allow another ten cases per PTQ of each set to be printed, and to simply give them away as excess prizes to increase attendance? At some point, it would lower card sales...
I guess I'm trying to beat around the WotC bush. Why are we focused on the TOs, but willing to give Hasbro a pass? They've come to the conclusion that their profits are maximized by controlling the supply and allowing the TOs to decide on prize structure (and to make TOs pay for all the prize product)...
Furthermore, all the economic discussion that may or may not apply to a TO like Glen (does he find the intersection between his supply and demand curves? Who the hell knows, but probably not!) certainly apply to a corporation like Hasbro. They're definitely looking at how to maximize profits... indeed, they're legally bound to do so, right? So what enters into their calculus?
Seems to me that WotC might be the better place to start, rather than these TOs, who, if Glen Goddard is any indication, are just random comic-shop owners doing this on the side for some extra cash... most of them probably like Magic, and want to see it succeed, beyond their own financial interest. But WotC has a very clear mandate to max out their profitability. If the PTQs are really in a state of crisis (again, I haven't played in them since roughly the moment mythic rares first appeared), then what can WotC do about it, and what are they / aren't they doing?
Also... mythics? Anyone? Man, I can't stand Mythic Rares. Ruined Magic for me... at least until the economy improves significantly.
I got as far as Sam Stoddard telling smennen that nobody agrees with him, so I figured I'd post.
I completely agree with Menendian here. There is a system of regional monopolies, not only for PTQs, but for things like pre-releases too. Even certain fiat-money products like From the Vault: whatever, are sold exclusively to certain shops.
Smennen's counterfactual of the $1,000,000 prize PTQ hasn't been refuted, that I've seen. The notion that more prizes would increase attendance seems undeniable to me, yet many deny it.
I know Glen Goddard personally. He has a vested interest in this argument. You can't expect a TO with a monopoly on a region's PTQs to speak objectively about this, can you? Glen's a great guy, but we're not debating Glen or Pete Hoefling's (Or whoever's) personal virtue, we're talking about reforming the PTQ system to try an increase attendance.
Now I know this discussion's gone pretty steeply down the "prizes" rabbit hole. My initial reaction to Glen's article was different.
As someone who has played magic since the very early Legends days, back when I was like 14 years old, I've gone through a lot of transitions. When I graduated college, and lived as a bachelor, I bought playsets of every set that came out so I could compete in Standard. Now I have two kids, a wife, and a mortgage.
The #1 cost prohibiting me from continuing to play competitive magic is not the cost of travel, but the cost of the cards.
I personally blame mythic rares for this, and would love to hear anyone else's thoughts on this matter.
If mythic rares were abandoned as just another honest mistake, like banding or interrupts or pre-6th / pre-10th rules, I think the game would benefit.
I simply can't afford to keep even a single deck up and running for Standard, particularly when dominant decks tend to use 2-5 mythic rare playsets.
The cost of a deck has increased sharply. So I'm relegated to limited play and increasingly underpowered legacy (as crap like Jace The Mind Sculptor keep coming out, costing $80 while they're in-print).
So anyway, does anyone share this feeling? And more importantly, does anyone have an argument to the contrary? I'd love to hear thoughts on mythics and their effect on the turnout at competitive events.
I'm a case study of a person who was long a PTQ competitor, striving to make the PT, but eventually giving in to the prohibitive cost of acquiring cards.
EDIT - also, I loved the argument against Smennen that "you're too long winded"... that because he's loquacious, he must be wrong. A nice anti-rationalist, no-nothing, Luddite sentiment, IMO. If you can't say something in one sentence, it's wrong? WTF? Thanks for keeping the faith, smennen... I know the pain as a fellow "loquacian" haha.
If Eternal Witness is in my library, and I search for it with Wargate or Chord of Calling or Green Sun's Zenith, will the spell I used to tutor it out be a legit target for the witness's recursion ability? That is, can I cast wargate for 3, get eternal witness, and then return the wargate to my hand with the witness?
Same question, but this time with, say Living Death. If I cast living death with a witness in the graveyard, can I return the living death to my hand when the witness comes into play?
FYI, we've been playing as though the answer is NO to both scenarios, and that the spells in question only end up in the graveyard after the witness' ability has finished... but we've always been a little sketchy.
It's my first main phase. I say "move to my combat step?" as a question. My opponent says "Tap your Spirit," and uses his priest to do so.
My question is simple: are we still in my first main phase? Can I play my warlord now, and then attack with it? Is there any way to phrase my intention to pass priority to my opponent, to give him a chance to use his priest on my spirit, which will result in our remaining in my first main phase should he take the bait?
I guess I'm unclear on how "entering combat" works, because at FNM recently the judge told me that by saying "move to my combat step?" as a question, when my opponent then tapped my spirit, we were officially beyond my first main phase, and were within the combat phase. This was contrary to my understanding, so please set me straight.
Also, is this the place to ask EDH-centric rules questions? Can I use dream halls to cast my general from the command zone? If not, can you tell me instead whether I could use Dram Halls to play a face down exiled card from, say, praetor's grasp?
EPIC GOAT WIN
I still feel like the pyromancer ascension builds have the advantage of being able to transition into the archive trap combo. But this is pure theorycraft. Has anyone tried this? Spellskite does little to thwart either the pyro combo, or the transitional milling plan. Anyone?
(and Spellskite)
</curious>
I disagree with the hateful hate speech here. How are you going to hate this deck? Duress / Surgical Extraction? The deck sports Mental Misstep and Mana Leak, and some folks even use Deprive. So we still have outs.
If you still feel like hating on the deck, remember that one HUGE appeal of this strategy is the pricetag. In a world of Jace The Wallet Sculptor, those of us who are kids, or who have kids, gotta find the path of least re$i$tance, if you catch my drift. If you ranked decks with a ratio of effectiveness : pricetag, this deck would rank high.
Okay, that said, I'm curious whether anyone has feelings about Treasure Hunt / Halimar Depths? Also, there's some splash bonus with Preordain I suppose. I'm assuming the hunts would take the place of See Beyond. It's marginal, but I feel like treasure hunt should be able to average you more cards than the consistent 2 of the See Beyond?
Lastly, is there any reason to want Mindbreak Trap in the side for the mirror? I think Mental Misstep is probably the best, plus the side is pretty tight I think... but I figured I'd throw it out there.
I really like the idea of trapmaker's snare / Archive trap in the side. But I also like the idea of Splinter Twin / Deceiver Exarch. Plus, I personally want to have room for Slagstorm in the side too... I see pyroclasm in a lot of lists, and I dig that since it's cheaper, but I think the flexibility of slagstorm will push it over the edge, since it can hit the players if you need it to, plus if you double it, you can do 3 to the creatures, and 3 to the players, or 6 to either... you can kill a baneslayer, etc., or bring down a Big Jace... lots more flexibility than pyroclasm will ever have.
So yeah, I'm thinking of the following sideboard right now, but plan to play with mindbreak trap and archive trap at some point:
I could see it going:
... but is there any reason to run both ( / all three) combos?
I am neither a judge nor an expert (which is why I'm here, after all), but that phrase seems familiar... it looks like I'll want some clarification on this new scenario though. Do you choose the two creatures when you activate Arena, or when it resolves?
(EDIT) Oops... missed that reply. Thanks Archonoid!
I'm wondering if this is still the case post-M10 rules changes... the article may well be older.
Norin the Wary
Arena
The question is whether activating Arena, choosing Norin and another creature, then playing an instant with Arena on the stack will end up resolving with the creature taking damage and Norin returning to his owner's battlefield at EOT.
Thanks in advance!
BTW, my guess is no. I suspect that Norin will be RFG... err... 'Exiled' by the time the Arena resolves, and will thus not deal any damage to the other creature.
Double-post merged. -Carsten
500 players in MODO isn't equivalent to real-world PTQs primarily because we're talking about a global pool of players.
If the wizards model is successful, then are you of the opinion that nothing is wrong with the PTQ system? "If it ain't broke, don't fix it?" That sort of thing?
Hahaha. Awesome quote. But don't forget that the MTGSalvation forum isn't necessarily a representative sampling of PTQ attendees.
Obviously (OBVIOUSLY) you go to a Pro Tour QUALIFIER, to try and qualify. That's obviously goal #1.
But there are tons of players, like me, who understand that our own chances of being #1 that day are slim. And the majority of PTQ attendees are in this boat. We have to ask ourselves whether playing "for the competition" or whatever, is worth it.
Now, if hefty prizes went down to 16th place, it stands to reason more folks like me would show up, since hey, even if I don't win, I can still walk away with some packs.
Consider this: why must the TO lose their (allegedly) slim profit margin to support these hypothetical increased prizes we're talking about? Imagine that WotC sent an additional case of product solely for use as bonus prizes to each PTQ? What then? Would you still contend that this would have no effect on attendance?
It seem that the people arguing that more prizes wouldn't mean better attendance are taking this (IMO illogical) stance mostly because they want to defend the TOs against what they perceive as Smennen's unfair attack on their monopoly.
So remove the TO from the equation. Yeah, Smennen has argued that competition would be better, and this is free market capitalist economic dogma... it's hard to deny Adam Smith. (For the record, I'm not sure that there's enough potential competitors, at least in my area, Albuquerque NM, to fill the void, even if competition were allowed... Glen Goddard is pretty much the only show in town, and entry into that market is pretty high... you have to buy tons of product to get competitive wholesale pricing, etc...) But for the moment, ignore the TOs. Let's assume the Godfather here, WotC, would be responsible for the extra prizes. What then? Still think more prizes wouldn't mean better turnout?
I think it's interesting that there are these incentives to artificially control the supply of Magic cards. Once a set is designed, magic cards are like coca-cola... they cost pennies to manufacture. But who is served by keeping the supply so low? What would it hurt for WotC to allow another ten cases per PTQ of each set to be printed, and to simply give them away as excess prizes to increase attendance? At some point, it would lower card sales...
I guess I'm trying to beat around the WotC bush. Why are we focused on the TOs, but willing to give Hasbro a pass? They've come to the conclusion that their profits are maximized by controlling the supply and allowing the TOs to decide on prize structure (and to make TOs pay for all the prize product)...
Furthermore, all the economic discussion that may or may not apply to a TO like Glen (does he find the intersection between his supply and demand curves? Who the hell knows, but probably not!) certainly apply to a corporation like Hasbro. They're definitely looking at how to maximize profits... indeed, they're legally bound to do so, right? So what enters into their calculus?
Seems to me that WotC might be the better place to start, rather than these TOs, who, if Glen Goddard is any indication, are just random comic-shop owners doing this on the side for some extra cash... most of them probably like Magic, and want to see it succeed, beyond their own financial interest. But WotC has a very clear mandate to max out their profitability. If the PTQs are really in a state of crisis (again, I haven't played in them since roughly the moment mythic rares first appeared), then what can WotC do about it, and what are they / aren't they doing?
Also... mythics? Anyone?
I completely agree with Menendian here. There is a system of regional monopolies, not only for PTQs, but for things like pre-releases too. Even certain fiat-money products like From the Vault: whatever, are sold exclusively to certain shops.
Smennen's counterfactual of the $1,000,000 prize PTQ hasn't been refuted, that I've seen. The notion that more prizes would increase attendance seems undeniable to me, yet many deny it.
I know Glen Goddard personally. He has a vested interest in this argument. You can't expect a TO with a monopoly on a region's PTQs to speak objectively about this, can you? Glen's a great guy, but we're not debating Glen or Pete Hoefling's (Or whoever's) personal virtue, we're talking about reforming the PTQ system to try an increase attendance.
Now I know this discussion's gone pretty steeply down the "prizes" rabbit hole. My initial reaction to Glen's article was different.
As someone who has played magic since the very early Legends days, back when I was like 14 years old, I've gone through a lot of transitions. When I graduated college, and lived as a bachelor, I bought playsets of every set that came out so I could compete in Standard. Now I have two kids, a wife, and a mortgage.
The #1 cost prohibiting me from continuing to play competitive magic is not the cost of travel, but the cost of the cards.
I personally blame mythic rares for this, and would love to hear anyone else's thoughts on this matter.
If mythic rares were abandoned as just another honest mistake, like banding or interrupts or pre-6th / pre-10th rules, I think the game would benefit.
I simply can't afford to keep even a single deck up and running for Standard, particularly when dominant decks tend to use 2-5 mythic rare playsets.
The cost of a deck has increased sharply. So I'm relegated to limited play and increasingly underpowered legacy (as crap like Jace The Mind Sculptor keep coming out, costing $80 while they're in-print).
So anyway, does anyone share this feeling? And more importantly, does anyone have an argument to the contrary? I'd love to hear thoughts on mythics and their effect on the turnout at competitive events.
I'm a case study of a person who was long a PTQ competitor, striving to make the PT, but eventually giving in to the prohibitive cost of acquiring cards.
EDIT - also, I loved the argument against Smennen that "you're too long winded"... that because he's loquacious, he must be wrong. A nice anti-rationalist, no-nothing, Luddite sentiment, IMO. If you can't say something in one sentence, it's wrong? WTF? Thanks for keeping the faith, smennen... I know the pain as a fellow "loquacian" haha.