Quote from ZephynoirWait, so we're barbecuing Gaka's ???
exactly.
In Galspanic's bathtub
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Quote from YukoraAfter extensive discussion regarding the reasons behind closing the gutter and how to prevent such things from becoming an issue in the future, the decision has been made to reopen the gutter. In an effort to avoid conflict in the future and to facilitate channels for communication between staff, gutter members and other users, we are going to be enacting a few changes.
First, as has been discussed in the past, a forum will be created where gutter members and members of the general staff can discuss issues that relate to both. It will be a place that issues that gutter members have with individual staff members or moderator actions that have already passed through the formal appeal process will be discussed in this forum. This does two things, it provides a safe haven for gutter users to air their grievances without fear of repercussions, and it creates a space where the staff can readily address and view said grievances. We are creating this area with the goal of fostering communications and providing a more appropriate place for the types of discussions that have been taking place in helpdesks and Community Issues and have led to previous issues.
Second, along with the added influence this forum would bring, there will also be an added level of accountability for gutter members. While temporary gutter bans will remain in effect for individual infractions, gutter members found to be engaging in behavior such as flaming or trolling on the main forum, especially in relation to moderator actions that will now belong in the newly created subforum, will be subject to extended or permanent gutter bans based on the offense. We want to be clear that the use of the Gutter is a privilege afforded to the gutter members by the guttermods, and by the staff as a whole. We simply ask that that privilege be treated with the respect that it deserves. Rest assured, revoking of that privilege will be taking place on an individual basis. Unless something drastic happens, we do not intend to close the gutter or punish it members, rather, we intend to revoke the privilege of that forum to those that abuse it.
The goal of these changes is to allow the gutter to be reopened and operate as intended while increasing communication and accountability for all involved. Thank you all for your patience as we sorted through this situation.
Quote from YukoraYou cans till do that, in the helpdesks or CI forum as has always been done.
We're taking the direction we are in an attempt to curve the main-forum presence of the gutter where tensions between staff and some gutter members have grown due to repeated butting of heads. With this new forum, that tension between the staff and gutter members will hopefully be alleviated as there will be a designated place for such discussion to take place.
Reall, it's an effort to prevent some staff members from feeling like they're getting publicly ganged up on by members of the gutter usergroup, and it provides those same members with a clear-cut area to have their voices heard without fear of staff retaliation. This is an effort to cut down on tension and drama rather than trying to alienate non-gutter users.
As for why we are keeping this subforum to just gutter posters and staff members, throughout the course of the previous thread regarding this issue, it became blatantly apparent that detractors of the gutter will use any opportunity they can find to try and stir up issues about the gutter. Keeping this forum private will allow the gutter users to air their grievances without risk of back-and-forth bouts with their detractors. This is what would often result in moderator actions against gutter members, and would only further cause a rift between staff and gutter users. Again, we arrived at the conclusion that we did in an attempt to facilitate communication and remove sources of drama, which ultimately makes everyone's life easier and makes these forums better for everyone.
We will still be listening to user's complaints about the moderating staff and discussing any moderation or issues that may come up on these boards with any user that may have them. This can be done publicly via helpdesks or privately via messages.
As for the permanent gutterbans, no one has to worry about them as long as you are following the forum rules. If you become a gutter member, we ask that you treat that privilege with respect and responsibility.
For those of you who are wondering why we are reopening the gutter, it has a lot to do with the fact that we are not interested in removing features from these forums that users enjoy unless they are a clear detriment to the site. The gutter itself is not a detriment to the site. Some have, in both past and present, abused that privilege, and those few bad apples have given the forum a bad name in many people's eyes. However, the forum itself is not an issue, it is the behavior of some of its members. We are taking the stance that we are going to handle abuse of this privilege on an individual basis, but we do not want to enact stricter standards without providing a means of rebuttal as we are providing with this new forum.
We apologize for the brouhaha this move caused while we sorted out what to do. Some members of the staff did not feel like our old system as providing the results that we desired, so the gutter was suspended while we sorted out what to do. Now, I can't reopen the gutter myself as I am rather technologically challenged by the admin interface, but it should be up and running as soon as someone who won't accidentally blow up the forum by pushing buttons signs on.
Quote from AnnoraxBy making it invisible and making viewing opt-in, anyone who sees it (including an uncensored thread title on the forum index) has no excuse for complaining publicly about being offended by anything in the gutter, including said uncensored thread titles that would appear on the forum index.
Quote from Azrael »In sum, I'd encourage each of you to continue speaking your minds freely without undue regard to the rank of the participants in the conversation. If we lose that, we lose the most vital protection the userbase has from hasty decisions.
Quote from teefoif all goes well that is hopefully what will happen, i mean there is no reason for it to be down here any more and it just makes it more difficult for everyone
ria i ask you as an internet friend (like i assume we are i mean i have no beef with you not sure how you feel about me) but can you please put the gutter back in it's old place
please respond
Quote from rianalnnAnnorax moved it because he didn't want to see questionable thread titles up there. I'm not inclined to change it back, it made sense then & it still does.
Quote from Ximbad
wat?
Quote from Ximbad
If you're not a gutter member the forum is hidden. We only have one thread, practically. Annorax [Redacted to protect the sensitivities of some users].
Please respond.
Quote from teefoI didn't know who did it as I only referred to the people that did it as "the staff" and it was in fact N_S who said it was you, so I not sure why you are being so hostile towards me (at least that is how I read it).
What reason is there for it being in the red zone now the penalty is gone? it was only at the top of the page for people who are members of the gutter as sinbad said and every member of the gutter preferred it that way, so why is having it somewhere else for literally no reason except "because we said so"?
If someone wants to be a member of the gutter they should be fine with having it at the top of the page, if not then they can just leave the group right?
Also whilst you are responding can you tell me if you have a problem with me or not? it seems the way you are acting that you do and I am not sure why since I have done nothing to really upset you as far as I know, care to enlighten me?
Quote from ( N_S )Well in all truth, I dunno who did it, I just assumed it was ria because this happened in conjunction with the creation of the speakeasy which has been his own mastermind.
I dunno what is so shocking about reading "lets paint some fences" 99% out of the time, and only for people who willingly joined the gutter so...
Quote from ( N_S )Actually there was exactly the same discussion a few years in the past when jdski made the same move.
The argument was exactly this. Putting the gutter at the bottom only served to piss of people, because people who didn't cared about the gutter wouldn't see it anyway, and people who cared was pissed off by having to scroll all the way down.
Quote from ( N_S )Oh hey, I gutterbanned Annorax a while ago, so he is pretty much safe from witnessing the presence of the gutter on top of the forums.
The only "unwilling victims" of the Gutter are now the three admins, and they already have their own hidden threads on top, so the gutter is probably hidden well enough.
Quote from ( N_S )I can also gutterban anyone who is feeling offended by seeing the gutter on top. Easy solution for every problem caused!
I'm THAT generous. Just ask, and you shall receive.
Quote from rianalnn/never posts in here again
Quote from viperesqueAs of July 1, the Gutter subforum will be retired. This was not an easy decision, but we believe it is the right one for the good of the site.
What is the Gutter?
The Gutter is a hidden group of subforums that is essentially unmoderated in the conventional sense. Infractions and the like have never been employed in the Gutter, although for a time an active infraction would preclude a user from participating in the subforum. Notorious for its culture of hazing and attracting members with rocky relationships with the staff, the Gutter historically served as a place where watchdog discussions relating to staff conduct could be had, in addition to its role as an exclusive-membership sandbox.
Quote from viperesque
Why is the Gutter being retired?
First is the issue of bullying. The Gutter has an entrenched culture of attacking, hazing, and bullying new or unwelcome members. Although “what happens in the Gutter stays in the Gutter,” any member of Salvation is fair game for a roasting within, whether they are a member of the subforum or not. MTGSalvation as a community aims to support a culture of tolerance, and the hostile culture of the Gutter is in direct opposition to this goal. While this has been an ongoing concern of the staff, certain events of the past months have brought this to the fore.
Quote from viperesqueFirst was an incident discussed extensively here in Community Issues and in the Moderator Lounge, namely that we were slow to act when a potentially unstable member was getting verbally harassed. The staff considers this a very serious issue and we vowed to address it. As we worked to prevent a similar event from happening in the future, we became acutely aware of how closely tied cyberbullying has been to various suicides and school shootings. We then realized that the reality is that in most cases the repercussions of that negative culture will not be visible to us. We cannot not overlook the danger that the Gutter poses to people in real life. While there is no way to quantify the impact this has on a user, by allowing it a place to exist, the staff feel responsible for it.
Quote from viperesque
Second, while the problems associated with the gutter have risen to the forefront, the benefits of the subforum have diminished. With the formation of the Staff Inbox, the Ban Appeal Subforum, the implementation of a Staff Code of Conduct and a general push for increased professionalism from staff, the Gutter's role as a place for watchdog discussions has been marginalized.
Quote from viperesque
At the same time, Gutter members at all levels have shown that they will not report fellow gutter members for suspension evasion and the like, while attacking whichever senior staff member is chosen to watch over the subforum. This creates a situation contributing to staff burnout and increased rule-breaking rather than the beneficial role that Gutter members would previously claim. The staff is thus left in an uncomfortable position where we cannot properly monitor the forum without drawing extreme levels of hostility.
Quote from viperesque
What Will Happen to the Gutter?
The Gutter and its subforums will be moved to the Forbidden Zone, hidden from regular users, and closed for posting.
Quote from viperesqueAgain, this is not an action we take lightly.
We will try to answer and address your concerns and help dispel any lingering uncertainties you might have.
Quote from ExpiredRascalsThe following question was posed by an anonymous user to the staff:
Can the Gutter show and prove how over the past 7 years it's presence has enhanced and promoted MTGS site and the MTGS "community" as a whole in a positive light that encourages participation by individuals, families and other entities affiliated with the game whether it be on a casual or professional level and how a continued presence of the Gutter would be of future benefit to the site?
i think it is an interesting question to have answered and I would appreciate some commentary on this from members of the gutter.
Quote from urzassedatives
The 'problem' with MTGS has never been the gutter.
The problem is MTGS blaming the gutter for pointing out the obvious problems with posters in forum X. Rather than trying to fix or curb these kinds of posts, the gutter is labeled as 'trolls' or as 'flaming' and therefore ignored.
The forum doesn't get better when people accept that bad posting is 'okay'.
Quote from XimbadWhat I've learned so far:
The mods are willing to ignore anyone who attempts to move forward in the direction of a comprimise.
Everything that every gutter member does that is bad is the fault of the gutter.
Everything that every gutter member does that is good has nothing to do with the gutter.
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DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards | ||||||
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[DECK=looks like this] 1 card A 1 card B |
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Glad to see everyone in order. I apologize for the inexpediency of my posts, I have just had a lot preoccupying me.
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Anything important?
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Banner by Rivenor! check my sig for a link to the shop!
This is my deck for the new legendary creature Yeva, Nature's Herald. It's a Green Draw-Go style deck, that actually functions!
The idea is to get Yeva out after ramping into a hefty source of mana, and then..PLAY EVERYTHING!
Also, I will be on cockatrice regularly whenever I can. just look for me in the User List, it's the same name as on here. Feel free to buddy me!
Cockatrice Currently: ONLINE!
Before we get started, you may want to review the deck list. It's not just a mono-Green deck with Yeva slapped on the front, it is tailored to casting a bunch of creatures and going for the kill next turn. You don't ever cast creatures on your turn unless you absolutely have to. The goal is to cast things during upkeeps, combat phases, and end steps.
And for those wondering, yes, the title of this thread and sanity's thread are jokes at each other Though mine WAS the original DrawGrow
Sanity worked a long time on a green list, and when Yeva came out, slapped her on as the commander. To see the list, go here. Look at both, see which ya like!
1 Yeva, Nature's Herald
Creatures:26
1 Acidic Slime
1 Avenger of Zendikar
1 Carven Caryatid
1 Duplicant
1 Elvish Visionary
1 Eternal Witness
1 Farhaven Elf
1 Gaea's Herald
1 Kamahl, Fist of Krosa
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Primordial Sage
1 Regal Force
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Seedborn Muse
1 Soul of the Harvest
1 Terastodon
1 Timbermare
1 Uktabi Orangutan
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Wood Elves
1 Yavimaya Granger
1 Yavimaya Elder
1 Caged Sun
1 Cloud Key
1 Cloudstone Curio
1 Emerald Medallion
1 Erratic Portal
1 Extraplanar Lens
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Planar Gate
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Sol Ring
1 Swiftfoot Boots
1 Vedalken Orrery
1 Whispersilk Cloak
Enchantments: 10
1 Arboria
1 Asceticism
1 Burgeoning
1 Cream of the Crop
1 Earthcraft
1 Greater Good
1 Into the Wilds
1 Lurking Predators
1 Mirri's Guile
1 Recycle
Sorceries: 11
1 Explosive Vegetation
1 Harmonize
1 Kodama's Reach
1 Nature's Lore
1 Overwhelming Stampede
1 Primeval Light
1 Rampant Growth
1 Skyshroud Claim
1 Sylvan Tutor
1 Tooth and Nail
1 Whirlwind
1 Beast Within
1 Chord of Calling
1 Worldly Tutor
Lands: 35
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Deserted Temple
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
23 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Strip Mine
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wasteland
1 Winding Canyons
1 Yavimaya Hollow
Skyshroud ClaimHunting WildsVigorRiftsweeperKrosan GripExplorationStampeding SerowMaking your creatures cost less is essential to this deck working. Avenger of Zendikar feels so much sweeter when he only costs you 1GG. The most important thing to remember with thiese: Unless it will make you lose to play this before the creature, play this before the creature. These are the most important non-creature spells in the whole deck.
Seedborn Muse:
She is the bread and butter of this deck. If this deck had a lover, it would be Seedborn Muse. She essentially makes it so that you have as many turns as their are players, and can turn Yeva's ability and a hand full of fatties into freaking Christmas. Or whatever, some time where amazing things happen to you. If you can play the muse, play the muse.
Regal Force, Elvish Visionary, Wall of Blossoms, Recycle, soul of the Harvest, Greater Good:
I cannot stress how important card advantage is in this deck enough. Wall and Visionary are great little cantrip creatures, and combo amazingly with a bunch of cards in this deck. Ever wanted to pay G to draw three cards? This deck can do it.
Regal Force...is Regal Force. He draws a bunch of cards, fueling your hand for explosive plays with Seedborn Muse and Yeva. He's fun to Flash in just before a boar wipe, as well.
Recycle and Soul of the Harvest both provide card draw just for playing things. They turn any creature you play into a double cantrip, which is already pretty cool. Then, recycle takes it a step further, making anything you even attempt to cast a cantrip. Very powerful cards, especially Recycle. Don't fear the discard- You have plenty of Recursion here to take care of it.
Greater Good is a card I was just introduced to by our mutual friend Weebo, and I'm glad for it. It turns this deck into a turbo-engine ,drawing cards off of already used up Woodfall Primus', or refilling our hands with creatures after we draw too many lands in a row. I absolutely adore this card, and will say, it is a fantastic play in this deck.
Uktabi Orangutan and the other fairly strange, random utility creatures:
I needed small creatures that actually did things, that I could also use to cantrip and cast with Yeva, and with other spells in the deck. Uktabi Orangutan came up on my search, and I loved it. He has done well so far, always being useful for me. His friends have not been any slouches either. I have not once wished that I hadn't drawn any of my utility creatures, as my board was always set up, or set up enough, by the time I drew them.
Extraplanar Lens, and his ramping friends of justice:
Ramp in this deck is important. You can's have blowout turns without a heavy dose of mana, and so this deck is packed with ramp and mana doublers. Mana Reflection and Heartbeat of Spring did not make the cut simply because I hate using colored mana, and Heartbeat gives it to my opponents. No thank you! Anyway, the ramp and doubling has been enough for me so far, so I have seen no purpose in overdoing it thus far.
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So, if I play combo, I'm automatically a competitive tryhard, right? Wrong, like others have said. Maybe that's just how I have fun. And you know what, learn to play magic, because seriously it seems people are confusing "casual" with "terrible". A casual game of magic is people sitting down, playing a game with decks they like, and not caring how the game goes, just having fun with it. They're trying to win most likely, because hey it's a game ,that's the point, but there are no insults, there is no real competition. Competitive play is the exact same thing, only all parties involved are aware that the other people involved are definitely going to be trying to take victory at any cost, and they need to be prepared to do the same.
Just ask. Ask your playgroup "Hey guys, is this a more competitive-focused meta? I just need to know what I'm playing against." and in most cases, people respond pretty well to that attitude, and a lot of very competitive players I've met online and off have a less cutthroat deck as well as the cutthroat one, just for these situations. And if not? Oh well, it's okay, Magic is still a game of variance.
You know what is not casual? Treating people who don't think the same as you like crap for it, telling other people what to play because you don't like their deck, making people feel bad for how they play, insulting other players, treating every game you play like some kind of cockfight. Even the most competitive of players I have seen be less rude, mean, and/or spiteful than most self-proclaimed "casuals".
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My brain is dying
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Everyone is a Spike. Period.
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I'm a Green Mage usually, though my main deck right now is Blue, and even I'm tired of the blue hate. I would love to sit and play R/G aggro all day, but control decks and blue decks have a right to exist too. He's playing a really cool Ixidor deck, very unique, and a mono-blue deck that is not palinchron.dec or counterspell.dec, I know, I have his list and thoroughly enjoy the deck myself. It is a unique, cool take on an EDH deck, and his playgroup is just being butthurt over something that isn't craw wurm.dec and with blue mana in it doing okay.
Rhakee, keep playing your deck, and tell them they can just deal with it, or maybe learn to play, and if they have any doubt about that, send them my way and I'll tell them how they're terrible at Magic and should just sell their cards immediately.