I concur with crazy monkey as far as wheels and the other looting cards are concerned. Why waste a slot for Wild Guess when you can use it for a pump spell or a cantrip?
To provide another side of the argument, I run almost *every* 2 CMC or less red "draw and discard" sorcery in my deck. My list is more of an all-in storm deck, and as far as I'm concerned, there are two states your hand can be in while playing Zada--either you have a cantrip, or you don't. If you have a cantrip, you're doing great, the filter spells are just gravy on top of it. If you *don't* have a cantrip, you're falling behind and you really want to find one, so filtering and wheeling is extremely useful there. The same logic also applies if you have cantrips but no creatures.
My biggest caveat to this is that if you're not playing as-fast-as-possible storm, the filtering spells lose a good amount of value. My deck essentially never wins through combat, and runs two pump spells total, relying on mass draw to get me where I need to go, taking out my opponents before a sweeper shows up. If you're more interested in a less glass cannon-y version, or one involving more creature combat, playing more ways to kill your opponent is definitely the right call. I still like Faithless Looting and Wheel of Fortune, but otherwise I agree with the consensus here. Just wanted to point out a context where those spells do some work.
Thank you for the responses! I'm pulling everything I listed out of the deck except Goblinslide. It's effect is similar to Young Pyromancer, so I want to give it a try. I'm also adding the Myr Battlesphere to the deck. As I've been rebuilding the deck, I came across a few other cards I'd appreciate feedback on:
Explosive Revelation - Similar to Zap and Flare, but far more random on damage. However, unlike Flare, you do draw the cards immediately.
Elixir of Immortality - I originally threw this in out of fear that I might deck myself. Since I don't own Reliquary Tower or Spellbook, I often have to discard cards when I draw. I thought this might help me cycle back around. What is the general consensus on the need for something like Elixir?
Thanks again!
Priest of Urabrask has always been a little underwhelming for me. It's free but it eats up a card in your hand, and I'm not a fan of playing bodies that don't also make tokens in some way except for when their abilities are extremely powerful, like with Magus of the Moon.
Elixir of Immortality is the kind of card I'd like to have in the deck, but also not really worth a slot, I've found. In general, if I've drawn enough cards that decking myself is a serious problem, I really should be able to win soon.
Explosive Revelation is interesting. My initial response is to dislike it because it costs 5, but the fact that it guarantees that you draw gas and not lands is very appealing. 5 mana is a lot, but it's definitely worth testing out I think. My particular build doesn't run many pump spells, but if you do, it's defintiely worthy of a testing slot at the very least. I might even give it a go, there's a lot of potential payoff there.
I don't get to play my Zada deck very often, since it's signifiantly above the power level of most of the group I play in, but I do update it with every new set for the few times I'm able to play it, and hot damn is Kari Zev's Expertise amazing in this deck. It's so absurdly powerful following up a draw spell. Every time I've cast it with a full grip I've just won shortly afterwards. It does have the downside of being useless on its own, but it saves such a crazy amount of mana that it's worth it.
With every new set that comes out, Wizards keeps including a card here or there that fits into Zada, and honestly I think this archetype is only a few unprinted cards away from being something truly fearsome. We just need a couple more Crimson Wisps type cards and we'll be there.
@Myrmadillo: I have to echo DementedKirby on this, you generally want to play the absolute cheapest forms of token production possible. Luckily in a Zada deck, those are often the cheapest cards in the deck. Goblinslide curves really awkwardly into Zada, and Flameshadow Conjuring is in a weird spot where you'll never want to play it before Zada and it curves horribly after her. I've never personally tested Genesis Chamber either, but Zada decks generally want to make lots of tokens and those don't ineract well with Genesis Chamber, unfortuantely.
I haven't been playing the deck much, unfortunately. My playgroup has skewed towards a lower power level recently, so I've been playing a version of the deck that runs a ton of energy creatures and outlets, using Zada as a means of generating absurd amounts of energy. It's fun, but not good by any stretch of the imagination.
From recent sets, the cards I'd be interesting in testing are Sevala, Heart of the Wilds, Magus of the Will, Recruiter of the Guard, and Ydris, Maelstrom Wielder if I was feeling adventurous.
And @Riverwolf, i didn't realize Support would work that way, that's pretty strong. I'll have to test it out should I remake the deck.
Have cards like Winds of Change and Collective Defiance been tested by anyone? I'm currently giving them a whirl in this deck. I'm uncertain of Collective Defiance at the moment as it's a bit expensive, but Winds of Change I've liked. This deck tends to either be looking for rituals or draw spells, and any hand without whichever of the two you're looking for isn't worth holding onto. And if you do have either of those, you're casting those instead of anything else anyways. Any thoughts?
Well, Renegade Tactics is a surprise I didn't expect to see. I've been considering rebuilding my Zada storm list recently, after playing Tazri for a while, and this and Spark of Creativity are definitely a good reason to do so.
I don't think that wizards would do that especially after that statement.
They'll wait 2 years when that statement has been mostly forgotten.
I remember when they revealed Mythic Rares they said wouldn't be used for chase tournament cards and you wouldn't need them for competitive play (and at the time the planeswalkers were pretty garbage except Jace, so it was believed). Now, pretty much every deck has at least a couple of planeswalkers + a few other good mythics - fat load of bull that was.
Hearing people misquote this gets tiring. Mark Rosewater never said that. Here is what he *actually* said, straight from the article:
"This now leads us to the next question: How are cards split between rare and mythic rare? Or more to the point, what kind of cards are going to become mythic rares? We want the flavor of mythic rare to be something that feels very special and unique. Generally speaking we expect that to mean cards like Planeswalkers, most legends, and epic-feeling creatures and spells. They will not just be a list of each set's most powerful tournament-level cards."
And they have absolutely held true to that definition. You are remembering incorrectly.
The problem is that when you go look at top lists, they ARE full of mythics. Due to the future future league they can pretty much tell what is gonna be played heavily, and they adjust accordingly to sell more packs.
There *are* decks in standard that have tons of mythics in them--Jund Delirium, for example, is the most egregious offender--but in this standard format out of all of them, you picked the wrong time to point to some sort of mythic conspiracy. Temur Emerge is another deck that does have mythics in it, but I would hardly describe it as 'filled' with them, unless your standards for how many mythics a deck 'should' have are very stringent. It has mythics alongside several commons that you see all the time in draft, and some other powerful rares.
I mean, let's take the most recent set, Eldritch Moon. For mythics, you have an Eldrazi Titan, two planeswalkers, a legendary creature depicting a corrupted form of a past mythic that Melds into a 9/10, and three tribal legendaries, all which fall under the cards MaRo specifically said would be mythic rares. Of the rest, you have a sorcery that puts Planeswalkers into play, a riff on Craterhoof Behemoth, and weird, unique cards like Mind's Dilation, Tree of Perdition, and Nahiri's Wrath. The only card here that could be an egregious offender is Grim Flayer, which is admittedly very pushed and likely mythic for it's power level, but even still that's 1 out of 15.
If you think mythics should never be constructed playable, or that there are too many, that's fine, but Wizards has never implied that they wouldn't make constructed playable mythics. In fact, the statement that mythics won't just be a list of the best tournament cards in a set even directly implies that some of them would appear on said list.
I don't think that wizards would do that especially after that statement.
They'll wait 2 years when that statement has been mostly forgotten.
I remember when they revealed Mythic Rares they said wouldn't be used for chase tournament cards and you wouldn't need them for competitive play (and at the time the planeswalkers were pretty garbage except Jace, so it was believed). Now, pretty much every deck has at least a couple of planeswalkers + a few other good mythics - fat load of bull that was.
Hearing people misquote this gets tiring. Mark Rosewater never said that. Here is what he *actually* said, straight from the article:
"This now leads us to the next question: How are cards split between rare and mythic rare? Or more to the point, what kind of cards are going to become mythic rares? We want the flavor of mythic rare to be something that feels very special and unique. Generally speaking we expect that to mean cards like Planeswalkers, most legends, and epic-feeling creatures and spells. They will not just be a list of each set's most powerful tournament-level cards."
And they have absolutely held true to that definition. You are remembering incorrectly.
I don't think people quite understand just how much of a win-win these things are. There is no universe where you *need* a Masterpiece printing for any reason at all, so these are just pure upside. If Wizards printed Masterpiece-exclusive cards, that would be horrible and I'd be complaining loudly, but if they're reprints they just mean that standard will be cheaper, and I have a chance of opening a 100 dollar card when I'm opening a box. And unlike BFZ, this set looks great even without the masterpieces, so there's no worry in my mind this time like there was last time that they're just trying to sell a subpar set with a gimmick.
I think people are overreacting to the idea of a 'fifth rarity', this really isn't that. The only possible downside this could bring could be that Wizards stops reprinting staples from other formats, but between the Masters Series and products like Conspiracy, I doubt that'll be the case. This is just extra gravy for the players, and it'll sell more packs for Wizards.
This set is one of the few I've seen that has impressed me on the back of the execution of the set's flavor, the cleverness of the cards' designs, *and* the sheer amount of powerful cards. Usually I have to pick two of those. The only sets that have done that for me since I've been playing--since Conflux--have been original Innistrad, New Phyrexia, Eldritch Moon, and now Kaladesh, apparently.
Energy is somewhat parasitic, yes, but that doesn't automatically make it poorly designed. The mechanic has a ton of design space, and on many cards is close enough to a more broad implementation of Charge Counters. The cards with it range from aggressive creatures to spellslinging engines, and the fact that they all work together will be really rewarding to play with.
Vehicles have downsides, but they also have tremendous upsides to make up for those. The fact that my Skysoverign will likely never die to a Planar Outburst unless I make some especially poor decisions is huge, and they're a naturally great way to make use of summoning sick Creatures. They dodge all sorcery speed removal, and are hugely undercosted when they're creatures. As with any mechanic, most won't be good enough to see any real standard play, but there are a few I would not be surprised to see in constructed formats.
Even ignoring the mechanics, this set has a boatload of interesting and powerful individual cards as well. The Planeswalkers all look great--Saheeli Rai I think is getting underrated, since she has less universal appeal, but I think she'll be great in specific kind of deck that is looking for a 3 mana planeswalker that can start sending out powerful hasted threats quickly. Enough has been said about Chandra and Nissa, so I'll let other people talk about how great they are. The Gearhulks remind me of much less oppressively powerful Titans, and each one shown so far seems like it'll provide a powerful new tool to many different decks.
And not only does this set have powerful cards for the Spikes among us, there are plenty of awesome build-arounds that excite the brewer in me. Metallurgic Summons seems very powerful in a deck built around it, Aetherflux Reservoir makes me want to build some sort of Storm/Eggs deck in standard, Ghirapur Orrery is ripe for some sort of deck that dumps its' hand early and would love to cast a free Ancestral Recall every turn, and Aetherworks Marvel shares a standard format with all three Eldrazi Titans.
This set looks phenomenal, for the Spike in me that likes powerful cards, the Timmy in me that's looking forward to slamming down gigantic airships crewed by massive artifact titans, and the Johnny in me that just wants people to have to sit and watch me try to play storm with 0-mana equipment, Aetherflux Reservoir, and Paradoxical Outcome.
Nissa looks great, reminds me of Nissa, Worldwaker, who saw plenty of play. The lands this Nissa makes are 5/5s and they can actually defend her, which is super important, though it also means that the lands will die to sweepers if your opponent has them. In general that's a tradeoff I'm willing to make. Her -3 is pretty great, especially in a Delirium deck that's been fattening its' graveyard anyways. A very notable play is that she can fetch an Emrakul out of the graveyard, and then ramp you to it the next turn. The Ultimate is a powerful tool if you ever need it in the match, and it's easy enough to achieve.
This card is *strong*, wow. Being able to flashback a counterspell or removal spell and then also get a 5/6 that can block Elder-Deep Fiends, eat Distended Mindbenders, and survive Kozilek's Returns is going to be so good in standard. This card seems great, and the fact that it's restricted to instants only is the reason it's allowed to have such great stats. If it hit sorceries too it'd have to be way more expensive, as there are so many huge sorceries this could be abused with.
Don't Vedalken have four arms? That's very South Asian-esque as far as I'm concerned; a lot of mythology from that region has creatures and deities with four or more arms. Including multiple faces and legs.
Mirran Vedalken have four arms. Having a humanoid race of blue, four-armed creatures is... culturally insensitive. I'd recommend reading this.
Oh yeah, I remember the cultural fallout when Kamigawa was released. Or when Innistrad based the planes' religion on christianity sprinkled with pop-culture references.
I mean I get it, Wizards wants to make money and tries hard to not get someone on the wrong foot, but that doesn't mean that four-armed Vedalken would have been inherently insensitive.
Agreed, and especially when it comes to a religion like Hinduism, where it is so intertwined with the culture and history of the country that it can be difficult to separate the two. I'm Indian, and raised Hindu, and if I were to try to design an Indian-inspired fantasy set without referencing Hinduism, I'd have a hell of a time trying to do that, and I'm not sure the end result would necessarily be better for it.
In Glen Cook's fantasy series, The Black Company, there is a setting named Taglios, which strongly correlates to South Asia in terms of its' inspirations. The gods and religions are reminiscient of Hindu gods and practices, and the man did his research--I was pleasantly surprised to see detailed, faithful references to specific myths beyond the most obvious ones available within the setting. Taglios took inspiration from Indian society, both the good and bad of it, and the world was stronger for it.
If you create a setting and spend your time trying to tiptoe around the things that make that steting unique in real life, I think you run the risk of either creating a shallow world, or else one that doesn't actually evoke the setting you're taking inspiration from. A four-armed vedalken wouldn't have even registered in my mind as being possibly offensive. Innistrad's Church of Avacyn was allowed to be as detailed and evocative as it was because it took inspiration from Christianity in our own world, and the inquisition was a warped version of real historical events. Taking inspiration from a culture is not inherently culutrally insensitive.
Gideon is a character with a lot of potential, but they're not really doing anything with him. He had a really interesting characterization in the Purifying Fire, and we left him in that book as he was conflicted with the concept of what is 'lawful' not always being 'good', and meeting Chandra had altered his perception of the world and its' values. And then this is never brought up again. It ends up feeling almost like Creative hasn't even read The Purifying Fire, there are so few elements of that Gideon in the Gideon we have here.
And then in the story leading into BFZ, we saw that he had a hero complex to a dangerously self-destructive degree, and he was literally working himself to death trying to save two worlds by himself. That's compelling, and a really interesting character flaw. And then all traces of that vanished too.
He just exists to be a leader and a rallying point, but a lot of the reason for that is just us being told by other characters that he is. I haven't been convinced yet, though the Gideon we saw in the aforementioned two stories could definitely provide a reason to follow him.
Gideon and Nissa are the Gatewatch characters with the least depth, and I hope that changes soon, though I'm not optimistic. BFZ was more about them than the other two Gatewatch members that were present, and we got jack in terms of character development from them there. Eldritch Moon did a world of good for Jace and Liliana's characters, so hopefully another set does for Gideon what EMN did for Jace/Liliana.
Wild Defiance feels like it could run the risk of being 'win-more'. If we already have our engine online and we're casting spells, I'd rather play an additional cantrip, because at least that can help us draw into something if we needed it.
I think the possible downside of Mirrorwing Dragon isn't really an issue, the vast majority of decks don't run any ways to turn this against us. I'm just not sold on the concept of adding additional copies of this effect just yet.
To provide another side of the argument, I run almost *every* 2 CMC or less red "draw and discard" sorcery in my deck. My list is more of an all-in storm deck, and as far as I'm concerned, there are two states your hand can be in while playing Zada--either you have a cantrip, or you don't. If you have a cantrip, you're doing great, the filter spells are just gravy on top of it. If you *don't* have a cantrip, you're falling behind and you really want to find one, so filtering and wheeling is extremely useful there. The same logic also applies if you have cantrips but no creatures.
My biggest caveat to this is that if you're not playing as-fast-as-possible storm, the filtering spells lose a good amount of value. My deck essentially never wins through combat, and runs two pump spells total, relying on mass draw to get me where I need to go, taking out my opponents before a sweeper shows up. If you're more interested in a less glass cannon-y version, or one involving more creature combat, playing more ways to kill your opponent is definitely the right call. I still like Faithless Looting and Wheel of Fortune, but otherwise I agree with the consensus here. Just wanted to point out a context where those spells do some work.
Priest of Urabrask has always been a little underwhelming for me. It's free but it eats up a card in your hand, and I'm not a fan of playing bodies that don't also make tokens in some way except for when their abilities are extremely powerful, like with Magus of the Moon.
Elixir of Immortality is the kind of card I'd like to have in the deck, but also not really worth a slot, I've found. In general, if I've drawn enough cards that decking myself is a serious problem, I really should be able to win soon.
Explosive Revelation is interesting. My initial response is to dislike it because it costs 5, but the fact that it guarantees that you draw gas and not lands is very appealing. 5 mana is a lot, but it's definitely worth testing out I think. My particular build doesn't run many pump spells, but if you do, it's defintiely worthy of a testing slot at the very least. I might even give it a go, there's a lot of potential payoff there.
With every new set that comes out, Wizards keeps including a card here or there that fits into Zada, and honestly I think this archetype is only a few unprinted cards away from being something truly fearsome. We just need a couple more Crimson Wisps type cards and we'll be there.
@Myrmadillo: I have to echo DementedKirby on this, you generally want to play the absolute cheapest forms of token production possible. Luckily in a Zada deck, those are often the cheapest cards in the deck. Goblinslide curves really awkwardly into Zada, and Flameshadow Conjuring is in a weird spot where you'll never want to play it before Zada and it curves horribly after her. I've never personally tested Genesis Chamber either, but Zada decks generally want to make lots of tokens and those don't ineract well with Genesis Chamber, unfortuantely.
From recent sets, the cards I'd be interesting in testing are Sevala, Heart of the Wilds, Magus of the Will, Recruiter of the Guard, and Ydris, Maelstrom Wielder if I was feeling adventurous.
And @Riverwolf, i didn't realize Support would work that way, that's pretty strong. I'll have to test it out should I remake the deck.
Ah, yes. Bant Company, scourge of standard, filled with such overpriced mythics such as Collected Company, Sylvan Advocate, Spell Queller, Tireless Tracker, Thalia, Heretic Cathar, and--oh wait, right, none of those are mythics.
There *are* decks in standard that have tons of mythics in them--Jund Delirium, for example, is the most egregious offender--but in this standard format out of all of them, you picked the wrong time to point to some sort of mythic conspiracy. Temur Emerge is another deck that does have mythics in it, but I would hardly describe it as 'filled' with them, unless your standards for how many mythics a deck 'should' have are very stringent. It has mythics alongside several commons that you see all the time in draft, and some other powerful rares.
I mean, let's take the most recent set, Eldritch Moon. For mythics, you have an Eldrazi Titan, two planeswalkers, a legendary creature depicting a corrupted form of a past mythic that Melds into a 9/10, and three tribal legendaries, all which fall under the cards MaRo specifically said would be mythic rares. Of the rest, you have a sorcery that puts Planeswalkers into play, a riff on Craterhoof Behemoth, and weird, unique cards like Mind's Dilation, Tree of Perdition, and Nahiri's Wrath. The only card here that could be an egregious offender is Grim Flayer, which is admittedly very pushed and likely mythic for it's power level, but even still that's 1 out of 15.
If you think mythics should never be constructed playable, or that there are too many, that's fine, but Wizards has never implied that they wouldn't make constructed playable mythics. In fact, the statement that mythics won't just be a list of the best tournament cards in a set even directly implies that some of them would appear on said list.
Hearing people misquote this gets tiring. Mark Rosewater never said that. Here is what he *actually* said, straight from the article:
"This now leads us to the next question: How are cards split between rare and mythic rare? Or more to the point, what kind of cards are going to become mythic rares? We want the flavor of mythic rare to be something that feels very special and unique. Generally speaking we expect that to mean cards like Planeswalkers, most legends, and epic-feeling creatures and spells. They will not just be a list of each set's most powerful tournament-level cards."
And they have absolutely held true to that definition. You are remembering incorrectly.
I think people are overreacting to the idea of a 'fifth rarity', this really isn't that. The only possible downside this could bring could be that Wizards stops reprinting staples from other formats, but between the Masters Series and products like Conspiracy, I doubt that'll be the case. This is just extra gravy for the players, and it'll sell more packs for Wizards.
Energy is somewhat parasitic, yes, but that doesn't automatically make it poorly designed. The mechanic has a ton of design space, and on many cards is close enough to a more broad implementation of Charge Counters. The cards with it range from aggressive creatures to spellslinging engines, and the fact that they all work together will be really rewarding to play with.
Vehicles have downsides, but they also have tremendous upsides to make up for those. The fact that my Skysoverign will likely never die to a Planar Outburst unless I make some especially poor decisions is huge, and they're a naturally great way to make use of summoning sick Creatures. They dodge all sorcery speed removal, and are hugely undercosted when they're creatures. As with any mechanic, most won't be good enough to see any real standard play, but there are a few I would not be surprised to see in constructed formats.
Even ignoring the mechanics, this set has a boatload of interesting and powerful individual cards as well. The Planeswalkers all look great--Saheeli Rai I think is getting underrated, since she has less universal appeal, but I think she'll be great in specific kind of deck that is looking for a 3 mana planeswalker that can start sending out powerful hasted threats quickly. Enough has been said about Chandra and Nissa, so I'll let other people talk about how great they are. The Gearhulks remind me of much less oppressively powerful Titans, and each one shown so far seems like it'll provide a powerful new tool to many different decks.
And not only does this set have powerful cards for the Spikes among us, there are plenty of awesome build-arounds that excite the brewer in me. Metallurgic Summons seems very powerful in a deck built around it, Aetherflux Reservoir makes me want to build some sort of Storm/Eggs deck in standard, Ghirapur Orrery is ripe for some sort of deck that dumps its' hand early and would love to cast a free Ancestral Recall every turn, and Aetherworks Marvel shares a standard format with all three Eldrazi Titans.
This set looks phenomenal, for the Spike in me that likes powerful cards, the Timmy in me that's looking forward to slamming down gigantic airships crewed by massive artifact titans, and the Johnny in me that just wants people to have to sit and watch me try to play storm with 0-mana equipment, Aetherflux Reservoir, and Paradoxical Outcome.
Agreed, and especially when it comes to a religion like Hinduism, where it is so intertwined with the culture and history of the country that it can be difficult to separate the two. I'm Indian, and raised Hindu, and if I were to try to design an Indian-inspired fantasy set without referencing Hinduism, I'd have a hell of a time trying to do that, and I'm not sure the end result would necessarily be better for it.
In Glen Cook's fantasy series, The Black Company, there is a setting named Taglios, which strongly correlates to South Asia in terms of its' inspirations. The gods and religions are reminiscient of Hindu gods and practices, and the man did his research--I was pleasantly surprised to see detailed, faithful references to specific myths beyond the most obvious ones available within the setting. Taglios took inspiration from Indian society, both the good and bad of it, and the world was stronger for it.
If you create a setting and spend your time trying to tiptoe around the things that make that steting unique in real life, I think you run the risk of either creating a shallow world, or else one that doesn't actually evoke the setting you're taking inspiration from. A four-armed vedalken wouldn't have even registered in my mind as being possibly offensive. Innistrad's Church of Avacyn was allowed to be as detailed and evocative as it was because it took inspiration from Christianity in our own world, and the inquisition was a warped version of real historical events. Taking inspiration from a culture is not inherently culutrally insensitive.
And then in the story leading into BFZ, we saw that he had a hero complex to a dangerously self-destructive degree, and he was literally working himself to death trying to save two worlds by himself. That's compelling, and a really interesting character flaw. And then all traces of that vanished too.
He just exists to be a leader and a rallying point, but a lot of the reason for that is just us being told by other characters that he is. I haven't been convinced yet, though the Gideon we saw in the aforementioned two stories could definitely provide a reason to follow him.
Gideon and Nissa are the Gatewatch characters with the least depth, and I hope that changes soon, though I'm not optimistic. BFZ was more about them than the other two Gatewatch members that were present, and we got jack in terms of character development from them there. Eldritch Moon did a world of good for Jace and Liliana's characters, so hopefully another set does for Gideon what EMN did for Jace/Liliana.
I think the possible downside of Mirrorwing Dragon isn't really an issue, the vast majority of decks don't run any ways to turn this against us. I'm just not sold on the concept of adding additional copies of this effect just yet.