My problem with this whole thing is that stupidly broken combo decks STILL exist in the format. Sun Titan+Saffi Eriksdotter+Sac outlet. Kiki-Jiki+Pestermite/Deceiver Exarch. Witness+Shard+Time Stretch. Academy Ruins+Mindslaver. Thopter Sword. Etc. They all win the game on the spot, basically. There are answers, of course, but there are also answers to nearly every combo on the "banned" list.
I fail to see how Elves+Staff is any more broken than Slaver lock. I fail to see how Sol Ring is fair at 7$ but moxes are broken at $400. I fail to see how Lion's Eye Diamond would even be a decent card in this format. Recurring Nightmare? Why is that even on the list? The example someone cited (6 mana for +5CA with very specific cards) honestly does not seem that great. That's just good synergy. Top+Future Sight is far better synergy.
I also fail to see how some combos are "in the spirit of the format" (thopter sword, bear umbra+relentless assault in Uril) but others are not (Upheaval, Staff, Protean Hulk, "Kokusho combo" that doesn't even exist). Yet Armageddon effects that reset hours and hours of play aren't "against the spirit of the format"? Cards that are banned for price level concerns is completely idiotic in a casual format. Play what you have.
Honestly, I think "competitive" EDH should be played with no banned or restricted list (because Vintage manages to have deck diversity even with all these cards accessible) and a set of house rules for each group that bans what bothers them. I am perfectly fine with lots of cards on that list (Staff, Protean Hulk, Balance, Gifts, etc) but I think lots of cards not on there should be banned for "fun factor" (Obliterate, Armageddon, Erayo). I play EDH casually and I think the idea of a banned list for a casual format is laughable. But for those people who DO need a banned list to have a fair "competitive" format, this one is currently woefully inadequate.
The 1vs1 Banlist here and the "French" banlist do a better job, though are still really bad. The good thing is at least they make some attempt to be objective and ban cards for a reason instead of "because I said so."
This is my my U/b control deck so far for post rotation. It puts snapcaster to pretty good use i'd say. I dont really thing he NEEDS to be paired with swords outside of white to be honest, but i think he's stronger in black.
U/b Control
Mana leak-4
Stoic rebuttal-2
Duress-3
Go for the throat-2
Dismember -3
Black Sun’s Zenith-1
Forbidden alchemy-2
Think twice-3
Visions of beyond-4
Ponder-2
Once upon a midnight dreary, while I Pondered, weak and weary
over many a quaint and curious website and card-trading store
While I nodded, nearly sleeping, suddenly there came a beeping,
A sound of something's soft upkeeping, beeping in the tab I explore.
"Tis some notification, I muttered, clutt'ring up my night before.
Only this, and nothing more.
You have to allow the Spellskite's ability to resolve first, changing the spells target to Spellskite. Then, in response to the original spell that still hasn't resolved, you can Apostle's Blessing. That would accomplish what you're after.
If you try to stack the abilities such that the Spellskite's trigger has not resolved when you cast Apostle's Blessing, the Spellskite's trigger will be countered on resolution as Spellskite is not a legal target for the spell.
I thought all Commander cared about was Red mana symbols in the text or mana cost? In that case Civilized Scholar would indeed be playable in mono-Blue.
For that matter, Flashback seems to get around the combo as well. You're casting a spell, presumably during your main phase on an empty stack, and the Pool says it has to be cast from your hand, which Flashback is not.
How is Sun Titan, Teferi, Elspeth, or Celestial Colonnade not a win condition? This is a draw-go style control deck. Academy ruins does deserve a spot though, should be in the list.
Changed manabase to accomodate Creeping Tar Pit. Unblockable is really pretty good, 3 power is strong, etc. Also upped the basic land count to dodge Blood Moon effects. Added one Baneslayer Angel to the main.
What do you guys think about Intervention Pact/Pact of Negation maindeck? Both are decent on a stick in the late game and can be tutored for with Teachings... better than Silence/Angel's Grace? At least the Pacts are good on their own...
Derp. So, Pacts are pretty good when they're tutorable and able to be put on a stick... so why not just run Hive Mind as a late-game win con? Or is Knowledge Pool lock with Teferi just as good?
I actually think this might be constructed playable. A grixis colored deck (new enemy duals!) with this as a finisher? Decently costed flyer with relevant abilities that grows? Being black helps blank Doom Blade... almost like a modern-day Psychatog?
The potential problem with hexproof is the same as with Caw-Blade: the fact that a card is answerable means pretty much nothing to how good it is.
Phyrexian Obliterator is still an awesome card despite dying to pretty much everything. The reason it's not played in competitive standard is NOT because it is easily answered, it's because it doesn't do enough for you. A titan, once resolved, will at least get you one activation of its triggered ability. If it dies after that, well, you just cast an overpriced Arc Lightning or something. You still did something.
Similarly, a Stoneforge Mystic dies to basically everything. A Batterskull, even if its tinkered out on turn 3, still dies to a lot of different, variable, versatile spells in the current metagame. They were still absolutely amazing cards, because no sane player puts all their eggs in one basket. They don't keep hands of 6 lands, Stoneforge and then cry once it's answered. They run permission to protect their Mystics. They run card advantage like Hawks to hold swords and beat in Mystic's place. They run versatile win conditions like Sun Titan, Jace the Mind Sculptor, and Gideon Jura, along with Celestial Colonnade.
How is hexproof any different?
Stoneforge had inherent card advantage by tutoring up an equipment. It had tempo advantage by cheating that equipment into play. No hexproof creature has any of those things. What they have is something called virtual card advantage.
Every targeted removal spell in your opponents deck (most decks run 4+ maindeck creature removal) is worthless against your hexproof threat. With a Spirit Mantle, this virtual card advantage increases, because now any substantial blocking creature is similarly worthless (those creatures can swing back, of course, but chances are they are more easily answered than a hexproof unblockable.) Throw in some bomby enhancement spell like Angelic Destiny, a Sword, or something and suddenly whole swarms of cards you might draw are now worthless, simply because you'll be dead before they impact the game.
Those arguing that there are answers for hexproof are right. But those arguing that those answers are a) always played and available, b) unanswerable themselves, or c) somehow make hexproof a bad ability because of their existence are mistaken. Aggro-control has always been a valid archetype. Having a hard-to-answer creature, with creature pumps like Swords/Destiny, ways to make it evasive like Spirit Mantle, ALONG WITH a removal and light permission suite and alternate win conditions is a valid archetype. Check out the Mono-Blue Illusions decks that have top 8'd recently. The same principle applies: Play guys, make those guys larger/difficult to remove/evasive, apply pressure, counter attempts by the opponent to turn the game around: game over.
Hey everyone, this is my first post on the forums here, but I've been lurking for a while. I've been pretty excited for Modern since it was announced as a PT format, and I've been testing a wide variety of decks. Recently I attended a paper Modern tournament in my area (Baltimore metro) with a Jund midrange list with Goyfs, Fires combo, and sideboard Boom/Bust and I went 2-2 before dropping. I beat 2 Zoo players (what I expected the meta to be, as my deck was built to handle it) and lost horribly to 12 Post in various forms. I'm convinced 12 Post is the deck to play right now, the UG version particularly. Looking at that tournament, the only decks doing consistently well were Pyromancer's Ascension, Melira combo (seems like he got lucky, watched his opponents misplay 2/3 rounds) and two U/G 12 Post lists. They have efficient permission in Remand, Spell Snare, and Condescend, fast mana with the Post package, Ghost Quarter/Life from the Loam to fight other Post builds, and inevitability with a Gifts package for Slaver lock. Plus the standard Eldrazi/Primeval Titan win conditions. It is probably the best deck in the format.
But! I have never been one to play the "best deck" So I've been trying to brew lists that can fight both Zoo and 12 Post while having a good match against the field. I wanted to play a permission-style control deck, so I came up with this:
Any help would be appreciated! Here is a breakdown of some of the card choices: Mystical Teachings: The main power of the deck. I only splashed black very slightly through fetches just because this card is so good. It lets you tutor up all of the Silver-Bullet win conditions that hose a specific deck on a Scepter: Silence is the main one since Teferi+Silence Stick is pretty much a lock, Angel's Grace destroys others, Boomerang on a stick is awesome... Basically they're cards that are situationally good but not necessarily always wanted. The deck thankfully gets enough card advantage through the Stick that you can afford to draw one-ofs in the early game and just not use them until you need to. Teachings also finds counters when needed and in the long run can be flashed back to find others. And I shouldn't need to remind you how awesome it is with Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir.
Path to Exile I'm convinced this is the best removal spell in the format. Hits nearly everything, dodges Persist and grave triggers, beats indestructible, etc. On a Stick it absolutely demolishes Zoo. You Path every one of their beaters and just manually counter their Burn and Pridemages.
Remand/Rune Snag: Man, I miss Counterspell! Remand is good because on a stick, it's basically 2, T: Draw a card. Your opponent wastes their turn replaying the same spell that you'll probably just Rune Snag anyway. Rune Snag is in my opinion better than Mana Leak because this deck is the definition of long-game control. It's the closest thing we have to a 2cc hard counter in the format (believe me, I tested Deprive...) and its also the only thing that will counter big spells out of 12 Post reliably. They run four Primeval Titans, we have 4 Rune Snag
Muddle The Mixture: Actually pretty good, both as a spell and a tutor for Stick/Boomerang. Might want to find space for one or two more.
Elspeth, Knight-Errant/Sun Titan: Confused on the split. Might want 2 of either. Elspeth is card advantage, a blocker, a win condition, cheaper and thus easier to play with permission backup, amazing in lots of ways... Sun Titan recurs fetches/Ghost Quarter, beats harder, is tutorable with Teachings if Teferi is out, etc. I'm going to cut one for either a third Teferi or a second copy of the other... leaning towards cutting Elspeth. Baneslayer Angel maindeck is also an option.
Sideboard: Wall of Denial: I know this card is unorthodox, but I absolutely love it in any creature-based matchup. Nearly unkillable, giant body, flying... everything you want. Basically 3cc: remove your opponent's best creature for the rest of the game.
Baneslayer Angel: Similar idea. Might be worth it in the main. Evasive wincon that kills aggro if it sticks and sometimes just puts the game out of reach for any non-combo kill deck.
Mindbreak Trap/Gather Specimens: Tutorable with Teachings, good answer to 12 Post. If you can get it online Specimens also stops Living End. Might be better as Bribery but I like it being tutorable with Teachings. Open for suggestions here.
Shadow of Doubt: Randomly hoses some decks like Birthing Pod and makes a stick a Jayemdae Tome that doesn't suck. Cool plays include responding to fetchlands for a cantripping Sinkhole, making your Ghost Quarters into Wastelands, and effectively nullifying your opponents Eye of Ugin. Might deserve a spot main, cycles at worst!
Trickbind: Kind of awesome. It stops Annihilator and Eldrazi cast triggers, can counter Melira combo for a turn, can nuke a Mindslaver or even Expedition Map, and getting Trickbind on a Stick is your best answer to Slaver lock.
So let me know what you think! Please refrain from the typical "Control won't work in an unknown meta," because the meta is basically known right now since the online dailies. 12 Post, Zoo, Red, various Midrange, Ascension, Melira combo, and Affinity. If I can get game against those decks I am more than happy losing to a few out-of-left-field decks.
I fail to see how Elves+Staff is any more broken than Slaver lock. I fail to see how Sol Ring is fair at 7$ but moxes are broken at $400. I fail to see how Lion's Eye Diamond would even be a decent card in this format. Recurring Nightmare? Why is that even on the list? The example someone cited (6 mana for +5CA with very specific cards) honestly does not seem that great. That's just good synergy. Top+Future Sight is far better synergy.
I also fail to see how some combos are "in the spirit of the format" (thopter sword, bear umbra+relentless assault in Uril) but others are not (Upheaval, Staff, Protean Hulk, "Kokusho combo" that doesn't even exist). Yet Armageddon effects that reset hours and hours of play aren't "against the spirit of the format"? Cards that are banned for price level concerns is completely idiotic in a casual format. Play what you have.
Honestly, I think "competitive" EDH should be played with no banned or restricted list (because Vintage manages to have deck diversity even with all these cards accessible) and a set of house rules for each group that bans what bothers them. I am perfectly fine with lots of cards on that list (Staff, Protean Hulk, Balance, Gifts, etc) but I think lots of cards not on there should be banned for "fun factor" (Obliterate, Armageddon, Erayo). I play EDH casually and I think the idea of a banned list for a casual format is laughable. But for those people who DO need a banned list to have a fair "competitive" format, this one is currently woefully inadequate.
The 1vs1 Banlist here and the "French" banlist do a better job, though are still really bad. The good thing is at least they make some attempt to be objective and ban cards for a reason instead of "because I said so."
Duress rotates.
over many a quaint and curious website and card-trading store
While I nodded, nearly sleeping, suddenly there came a beeping,
A sound of something's soft upkeeping, beeping in the tab I explore.
"Tis some notification, I muttered, clutt'ring up my night before.
Only this, and nothing more.
If you try to stack the abilities such that the Spellskite's trigger has not resolved when you cast Apostle's Blessing, the Spellskite's trigger will be countered on resolution as Spellskite is not a legal target for the spell.
Changed manabase to accomodate Creeping Tar Pit. Unblockable is really pretty good, 3 power is strong, etc. Also upped the basic land count to dodge Blood Moon effects. Added one Baneslayer Angel to the main.
What do you guys think about Intervention Pact/Pact of Negation maindeck? Both are decent on a stick in the late game and can be tutored for with Teachings... better than Silence/Angel's Grace? At least the Pacts are good on their own...
Derp. So, Pacts are pretty good when they're tutorable and able to be put on a stick... so why not just run Hive Mind as a late-game win con? Or is Knowledge Pool lock with Teferi just as good?
Phyrexian Obliterator is still an awesome card despite dying to pretty much everything. The reason it's not played in competitive standard is NOT because it is easily answered, it's because it doesn't do enough for you. A titan, once resolved, will at least get you one activation of its triggered ability. If it dies after that, well, you just cast an overpriced Arc Lightning or something. You still did something.
Similarly, a Stoneforge Mystic dies to basically everything. A Batterskull, even if its tinkered out on turn 3, still dies to a lot of different, variable, versatile spells in the current metagame. They were still absolutely amazing cards, because no sane player puts all their eggs in one basket. They don't keep hands of 6 lands, Stoneforge and then cry once it's answered. They run permission to protect their Mystics. They run card advantage like Hawks to hold swords and beat in Mystic's place. They run versatile win conditions like Sun Titan, Jace the Mind Sculptor, and Gideon Jura, along with Celestial Colonnade.
How is hexproof any different?
Stoneforge had inherent card advantage by tutoring up an equipment. It had tempo advantage by cheating that equipment into play. No hexproof creature has any of those things. What they have is something called virtual card advantage.
Every targeted removal spell in your opponents deck (most decks run 4+ maindeck creature removal) is worthless against your hexproof threat. With a Spirit Mantle, this virtual card advantage increases, because now any substantial blocking creature is similarly worthless (those creatures can swing back, of course, but chances are they are more easily answered than a hexproof unblockable.) Throw in some bomby enhancement spell like Angelic Destiny, a Sword, or something and suddenly whole swarms of cards you might draw are now worthless, simply because you'll be dead before they impact the game.
Those arguing that there are answers for hexproof are right. But those arguing that those answers are a) always played and available, b) unanswerable themselves, or c) somehow make hexproof a bad ability because of their existence are mistaken. Aggro-control has always been a valid archetype. Having a hard-to-answer creature, with creature pumps like Swords/Destiny, ways to make it evasive like Spirit Mantle, ALONG WITH a removal and light permission suite and alternate win conditions is a valid archetype. Check out the Mono-Blue Illusions decks that have top 8'd recently. The same principle applies: Play guys, make those guys larger/difficult to remove/evasive, apply pressure, counter attempts by the opponent to turn the game around: game over.
But! I have never been one to play the "best deck" So I've been trying to brew lists that can fight both Zoo and 12 Post while having a good match against the field. I wanted to play a permission-style control deck, so I came up with this:
4 Hallowed Fountain
1 Watery Grave
1 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Island
2 Plains
2 Swamp
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Academy Ruins
Spells
4 Preordain
4 Remand
4 Rune Snag
4 Path to Exile
2 Wrath of God
4 Isochron Scepter
2 Muddle the Mixture
3 Mystical Teachings
1 Pact of Negation
1 Pollen Lullaby
2 Silence
Creatures
2 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Sun Titan
4 Wall of Denial
1 Baneslayer Angel
2 Wrath of God
1 Gather Specimens
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Pact of Negation
1 Intervention Pact
1 Shadow of Doubt
1 Into the Roil
1 Trickbind
1 Angel's Grace
Any help would be appreciated! Here is a breakdown of some of the card choices:
Mystical Teachings: The main power of the deck. I only splashed black very slightly through fetches just because this card is so good. It lets you tutor up all of the Silver-Bullet win conditions that hose a specific deck on a Scepter: Silence is the main one since Teferi+Silence Stick is pretty much a lock, Angel's Grace destroys others, Boomerang on a stick is awesome... Basically they're cards that are situationally good but not necessarily always wanted. The deck thankfully gets enough card advantage through the Stick that you can afford to draw one-ofs in the early game and just not use them until you need to. Teachings also finds counters when needed and in the long run can be flashed back to find others. And I shouldn't need to remind you how awesome it is with Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir.
Path to Exile I'm convinced this is the best removal spell in the format. Hits nearly everything, dodges Persist and grave triggers, beats indestructible, etc. On a Stick it absolutely demolishes Zoo. You Path every one of their beaters and just manually counter their Burn and Pridemages.
Remand/Rune Snag: Man, I miss Counterspell! Remand is good because on a stick, it's basically 2, T: Draw a card. Your opponent wastes their turn replaying the same spell that you'll probably just Rune Snag anyway. Rune Snag is in my opinion better than Mana Leak because this deck is the definition of long-game control. It's the closest thing we have to a 2cc hard counter in the format (believe me, I tested Deprive...) and its also the only thing that will counter big spells out of 12 Post reliably. They run four Primeval Titans, we have 4 Rune Snag
Muddle The Mixture: Actually pretty good, both as a spell and a tutor for Stick/Boomerang. Might want to find space for one or two more.
Elspeth, Knight-Errant/Sun Titan: Confused on the split. Might want 2 of either. Elspeth is card advantage, a blocker, a win condition, cheaper and thus easier to play with permission backup, amazing in lots of ways... Sun Titan recurs fetches/Ghost Quarter, beats harder, is tutorable with Teachings if Teferi is out, etc. I'm going to cut one for either a third Teferi or a second copy of the other... leaning towards cutting Elspeth. Baneslayer Angel maindeck is also an option.
Sideboard:
Wall of Denial: I know this card is unorthodox, but I absolutely love it in any creature-based matchup. Nearly unkillable, giant body, flying... everything you want. Basically 3cc: remove your opponent's best creature for the rest of the game.
Baneslayer Angel: Similar idea. Might be worth it in the main. Evasive wincon that kills aggro if it sticks and sometimes just puts the game out of reach for any non-combo kill deck.
Mindbreak Trap/Gather Specimens: Tutorable with Teachings, good answer to 12 Post. If you can get it online Specimens also stops Living End. Might be better as Bribery but I like it being tutorable with Teachings. Open for suggestions here.
Shadow of Doubt: Randomly hoses some decks like Birthing Pod and makes a stick a Jayemdae Tome that doesn't suck. Cool plays include responding to fetchlands for a cantripping Sinkhole, making your Ghost Quarters into Wastelands, and effectively nullifying your opponents Eye of Ugin. Might deserve a spot main, cycles at worst!
Trickbind: Kind of awesome. It stops Annihilator and Eldrazi cast triggers, can counter Melira combo for a turn, can nuke a Mindslaver or even Expedition Map, and getting Trickbind on a Stick is your best answer to Slaver lock.
So let me know what you think! Please refrain from the typical "Control won't work in an unknown meta," because the meta is basically known right now since the online dailies. 12 Post, Zoo, Red, various Midrange, Ascension, Melira combo, and Affinity. If I can get game against those decks I am more than happy losing to a few out-of-left-field decks.