It seems like a lot of people are caught up on comparing this to other cards such as Haze of Pollen and Harvest Season when those cards are green and unless you are running a WG deck, won't do you any good. These are better at what they do, ramp, prevent damage or replace itself, but not at removal. Let's not pretend that EXILING an opposing Sun Titan isn't worth the mana. Maybe not by itself, but this won't be the only thing it hits. Personally, I think the ramp potential for MONO white decks is high. They can replace the creatures they exile with tokens and you can also control how many are exiled with your attack. It has potential, I will be testing it out for control.
Looking at the options listed so far, these are the ones I'm leaning towards.
Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim - Ayli promotes lifegain and can very easily increase my life total very quickly. With creatures that recur/can be recurred, this could be a very viable option. Karlov of the Ghost Council - Karlov can do great things when you gain life, but my biggest concern here is he doesn't have a way to grant me life as the others do. But he is solid removal and a beater. Oloro, Ageless Ascetic - Oloro is very hefty compared to the others, but he does not have to be out to benefit from his lifegain. And he becomes card advantage later in the game. Very nice pros. Sydri, Galvanic Genius - Sydri is efficient, promotes lifegain, and is creature removal or a deterrent to blocking. I like the upsides she brings.
Edit
@Burntgerbil - I like this idea with the Pestilence creatures, but what is a reliable way to give all creatures lifelink? I only know a few cards that do this.
Sydri is an interesting idea. She can gain a lot of life and have the chance to kill other creatures. Having to deal damage might be a little difficult sometimes, but the deathtouch helps.
Trostani, is a great idea for this, however, I have a friend that uses her for a token swarm fog style deck. But no doubt that she can gain the life which he usually has around 200 life at any given time.
Selenia is definitely a life manipulation deck. She could be a lot of fun to tinker around with, but the win conditions would be pretty obvious with her to pay my life to take opponents out with. Luckily she is hard to get rid of. I'll have to give her some thought if this is what I'm looking for. I want to be able to use the life to do things as well, not just as a balancing tool to determine when someone dies.
I am looking to build a commander deck that relies heavily on gaining/manipulating life as a resource to cast spells and activate abilities that have strong synergy and combo potential. I know the go to colors for this type of deck are W/B, but I want to look at the broader spectrum to find a color identity or a commander that either interacts with life gain, or triggers life gain. It doesn't have to be an obvious option such as Karlov of the Ghost Council. My meta frowns upon infinite combos, but strong synergies and other fun combos are allowed. No commander is off limits, so the "unfun" factor is not an issue that many commanders put off. I don't necessarily intend to win by having a lot of life, although there will be cards added for this purpose. I plan to use the life as a buffer for combat damage, aside from commander damage, which I plan to stop in other ways.
I look to use Aetherflux Reservoir as an example of the types of cards I am looking for. And ways to gain a LOT of life. If anyone has any experience with this type of a deck, please post your thoughts and ideas.
Thanks for any input and I hope to get a fun idea brewing!
Q: I have Decree of Silence in play with no depletion counters, along with Guile, and an opponent plays a spell. Normally the Decree would counter that spell and I'd put a counter on it. However it's my understanding that Guile's ability is a replacement effect, so the spell never actually gets countered. If this is right, does that mean I don't put a counter on the Decree?
A: You're right in the respect that Guile's ability is a replacement effect, but the Decree still gets a counter. Decree actually countering the spell is not the requirement for the depletion counter being added. The ability will trigger and Decree of Silence will try to counter the spell. Guile will replace that with its own “RFG it and you may play it for free” ability. Even though Decree technically didn't counter the spell, the ability triggered and will do as much as it can. Add a depletion counter.
It looks like this is correct. For some reason I was under the impression that the depletion counter would not get added since it was a replacement effect. I may rethink a few things on them, but they still work well together. I may look at adding some way to recur the decree, or to remove the counters, but it may stray a little from my goal. Thanks for pointing this out.
I would only put in the Guile/Decree lock if you have a quick way of finishing the game... as otherwise, those cards together pretty much say, "Stop playing this game" to your opponents.
I understand that sentiment. I will have ways to close out the game and not just have a million answers and no threats. The Decree/Guile is just another way to end the game anyway. Any opponent that doesn't want to continue is fine to concede. And if they continue, I steal their win conditions. But truthfully, I will have plenty of ways to end it on my own.
Another Mayael player! check out the primer in my signature to peruse for some more ideas. There are some great ideas in the thread and maybe it will spark some inspiration. My list is more dedicated to an angel and dragon theme, all of which as we know have high power and are great targets for Mayael.
Just from a quick look, Spellbreaker Behemoth is a great creature, but if you plan to be activating Mayael more, she will make them near uncounterable anyway with her activation aside from a short list of spells. Spearbreaker Behemoth I have noticed has been a great boon to the deck making things indestrucuble when I need it. I love extra combat steps, but Hellkite Charger may be hard to activate during a turn when you activate Mayael. That will be a total of 8RRRGW to activate both in one turn. That can be hard in a heavy mana cost deck. I'd recommend some cheap creatures that can fetch lands or generate mana. Lotus Cobra, Wood Elves, Sakura-Tribe Elder, and the above mentioned Karametra's Acolyte.
I hope this helps and take a look at my thread for more ideas.
I have taken a skim through your list, mostly at the spells/enchantments. There are some good ideas that definitely inspection, so I may consider more tradeouts.
Spellbreaker is a good point. I think that stayed as long as it did because Mayael draws a bit of hate after she activates a few times, often forcing me to start hard-casting. That being said, he's on the edge now...we'll see what effect, if any, he has on the next game or two.
Charger may stay, however...the potential for end-game shenanigans with FaF is too great to ignore. If I had an extra Bear Umbra, I'd use that as well. He will, however, be on the watch list.
Haven't made these changes final yet, but so far, I'm looking at this:
- Hymn of Rebirth doesn't seem to fit in the deck's theme, but it's an iffy prospect...recursion is rarely a bad idea.
- Emrakul, the Promised End If he has to go, he has to go...not as much of a thing as I thought he might be.
- The Chain Veil Not sure if this is something that should go...are 3 PWs enough value to keep it in?
- Spellbreaker Behemoth Fair point made, going.
- Aurelia, the Warleader Another iffy one...again, swinging for two attacks per round is something I like with big beats
You made some good cuts in my opinion. The Chain Veil is usually only good in a dedicated planeswalker deck. If you ever have it without your planewalkers you will wish you had something else about 96% of the time (3% of the deck has planeswalkers).
Emrakul is a very good card regardless of his cast trigger. It's hard to beat a 13/13 Flying, Trample, and pro to most spot removal. But he can just as easily be replaced by another good target.
Aurelia, the War Leader is a personal favorite of mine. At least she triggers on her attack which means a good alpha strike with all of your creatures twice. However, I chose not go with her for the fact Mayael is not able to grab her off the top.
Hymn of Rebirth is a a nice spell, but doesn't suit the deck. Instead of grabbing creatures from the yard, empty the ones you have in your hand/deck with Selvala's Stampede. This is a card I have yet to get into my list but I have every intention of adding.
Another Mayael player! check out the primer in my signature to peruse for some more ideas. There are some great ideas in the thread and maybe it will spark some inspiration. My list is more dedicated to an angel and dragon theme, all of which as we know have high power and are great targets for Mayael.
Just from a quick look, Spellbreaker Behemoth is a great creature, but if you plan to be activating Mayael more, she will make them near uncounterable anyway with her activation aside from a short list of spells. Spearbreaker Behemoth I have noticed has been a great boon to the deck making things indestrucuble when I need it. I love extra combat steps, but Hellkite Charger may be hard to activate during a turn when you activate Mayael. That will be a total of 8RRRGW to activate both in one turn. That can be hard in a heavy mana cost deck. I'd recommend some cheap creatures that can fetch lands or generate mana. Lotus Cobra, Wood Elves, Sakura-Tribe Elder, and the above mentioned Karametra's Acolyte.
I hope this helps and take a look at my thread for more ideas.
These were the ones I was considering as the high end counterspells along with Force of Will, They pull the most weight with the flexibility they provide. My only question is how many of these should be included (High cmc)? They are better with Baral out for sure.
They are as hard a counterspell lock together as I've ever seen. Also, cycling Decree can counter a Split-Second spell.
I did not think of this interaction when putting the list together. I wanted to use both and the interaction never occurred to me. Definitely going to include both now. Thanks for the synergy.
Spell Burst (This spell loves to eat smaller spells. 2U + X: Counter target spell of mana cost X. Return this to your hand.) Rethink (and on the flip side we have Spell Burst's bigger brother that loves to eat the big spells.)
I was thinking of this list for cost reduction to make the most of our cheap spells and looting capability. Spell Burst and Rethink are actually quite good in this list. They can counter multiple/high cmc cards which is what this format is all about afterall. I will put them in the list.
As far as how many counters are too many counters, what is the consensus on that? I want a decent amount in here, both permanent sources of counters and instants for Baral's reduction. I think adding in a small wizard package is the direction I will take this as well as add in the necessary instant/sorcery spells.
I have not seen any other ideas with Baral yet and wanted to get some ideas on what is the best way to build him. Mostly, what is the correct amount of counter magic that we want to include in a list such as this? He triggers off of countering spells to loot a card which digs through the deck. A very powerful effect. And his cost reduction of instants and sorcerys is not something to overlook. It makes Rewind generate more mana. He may be more of a typical spellslinger build utilizing his cost reduction and looting ability. I feel more cost reduction cards should definitely be added to make our spells as cheap as possible and open up more mana for counterspells when needed. Here are my thoughts on the types of counterspells he wants to run.
Of course there are quite a few instant ans sorcery counterspells to look at as well. How many should we include? Most, if not all of the 2 mana or less counterspells are good options.
CMC 0-1
I'll leave the counterspells that cost more than 3 out, obviously these will be a case by case basis on which will make the cut. Aside from the counterspells, what do you guys think as far as the rest of the deck is concerned? What are some good wincons, should this be primarily spell slinger, or maybe even a tribal wizard tribal subtheme? Thanks for any input you have!
Why would you not also use Mass Polymorph? The only token producing planeswalkers are Elspeth and Nissa in your list. With Derevi out you can still flip into Deepglow Skate and it gives you a fourth way to do it.
I see how hard to it to make a list with so many +1 counter synergies.
I've always been underwhelmed by Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit. Her single counter doesn't do much. She is a smaller version of Cathars' Crusade but more specific with the who gets the counter. I don't see anything in my list I would cut to include her unfortunately. Inspiring Call is a pretty interesting card. I should always get a lot of value out of it. I do have many other creatures that will allow me to draw cards with +1/+1 counters so it may not be needed but having a burst draw might prove useful. I'll add it to the list for testing. Vulturous Zombie has always been better in a deck with a lot of forced sacing, milling, or discarding. I feel he may be a little underwhelming for what he gives. If anything else, he is another big beater, but I'm not lacking on them. Bioshift was something I'd considered. I still have it on the back of my mind to test. I think that it could be underwhelming as a one time trick which makes me more reluctant on its inclusion. Skullbriar, the Walking Grave was on the list but did not make the cut. The fact that he needs to connect to gain counters is hard if he is not your commander where he can come down turn one or two. When I draw into him, if it is late game it will be hard for him to gain his own counters. I may revisit him in the future, but for now I will leave him out.
Thanks for the great suggestions. I'll test out Inspiring Call once everything comes in and I can post how the deck performs.
Spike Weaver is a pretty classic combo with +1/+1 counters. Could help you to race without worrying about getting nailed on the crack-back. Mindless Automaton is another one that, while it may be underwhelming on its own, gets a lot better when you can mess with the number of +1/+1 counters it has.
Spike Weaver has always been a great inclusion in these types of decks. I think he will be added to my list to test out. My only reservation with him is simply how defensive do I want to be with this deck. But the fact that when I tap out to attack my opponents, he can always come in handy to stop them from attacking me. Mindless Automaton is a fantastic card and I absolutely feel he can find a place with the other cards like him such as Sage of Fables. I'll see what my drawing looks like to see if I can make room. The fact that he is a creature is great since I can recur him when needed.
Awesome suggestions! I will include my Cards to Test in the OP.
I normally would run Fertillid, however with only 10 basics and other cards that search them out, Nature's Lore, Farseek, Cultivate, Sakura-Tribe Elder, I feel it will probably not do much. I actually plan to drop to less than 10 basics with a few other duals/utility. If I see the need to adding in more basics, I'll probably revisit putting him in the list. Thanks for the great suggestion!
I started a thread with these exact two partner commanders. Here is the link to my list; Reyhan and Ishai. Maybe it will give you some good ideas for your list.
I was originally thinking a Gahiji, Honored One style deck. Pillowfort and reward hitting eachother and tokens. But I want to utilize the high land count to win. Any ideas?
Looking at the options listed so far, these are the ones I'm leaning towards.
Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim - Ayli promotes lifegain and can very easily increase my life total very quickly. With creatures that recur/can be recurred, this could be a very viable option.
Karlov of the Ghost Council - Karlov can do great things when you gain life, but my biggest concern here is he doesn't have a way to grant me life as the others do. But he is solid removal and a beater.
Oloro, Ageless Ascetic - Oloro is very hefty compared to the others, but he does not have to be out to benefit from his lifegain. And he becomes card advantage later in the game. Very nice pros.
Sydri, Galvanic Genius - Sydri is efficient, promotes lifegain, and is creature removal or a deterrent to blocking. I like the upsides she brings.
What are your thoughts on Ikra Shidiqi, the Usurper paired with someone? I'm not sure of the right pairing off hand, maybe Tymna the Weaver or Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa?
Edit
@Burntgerbil - I like this idea with the Pestilence creatures, but what is a reliable way to give all creatures lifelink? I only know a few cards that do this.
Trostani, is a great idea for this, however, I have a friend that uses her for a token swarm fog style deck. But no doubt that she can gain the life which he usually has around 200 life at any given time.
Selenia is definitely a life manipulation deck. She could be a lot of fun to tinker around with, but the win conditions would be pretty obvious with her to pay my life to take opponents out with. Luckily she is hard to get rid of. I'll have to give her some thought if this is what I'm looking for. I want to be able to use the life to do things as well, not just as a balancing tool to determine when someone dies.
Thanks for the great suggestions!
I look to use Aetherflux Reservoir as an example of the types of cards I am looking for. And ways to gain a LOT of life. If anyone has any experience with this type of a deck, please post your thoughts and ideas.
Thanks for any input and I hope to get a fun idea brewing!
It looks like this is correct. For some reason I was under the impression that the depletion counter would not get added since it was a replacement effect. I may rethink a few things on them, but they still work well together. I may look at adding some way to recur the decree, or to remove the counters, but it may stray a little from my goal. Thanks for pointing this out.
I understand that sentiment. I will have ways to close out the game and not just have a million answers and no threats. The Decree/Guile is just another way to end the game anyway. Any opponent that doesn't want to continue is fine to concede. And if they continue, I steal their win conditions. But truthfully, I will have plenty of ways to end it on my own.
You made some good cuts in my opinion. The Chain Veil is usually only good in a dedicated planeswalker deck. If you ever have it without your planewalkers you will wish you had something else about 96% of the time (3% of the deck has planeswalkers).
Emrakul is a very good card regardless of his cast trigger. It's hard to beat a 13/13 Flying, Trample, and pro to most spot removal. But he can just as easily be replaced by another good target.
Aurelia, the War Leader is a personal favorite of mine. At least she triggers on her attack which means a good alpha strike with all of your creatures twice. However, I chose not go with her for the fact Mayael is not able to grab her off the top.
Hymn of Rebirth is a a nice spell, but doesn't suit the deck. Instead of grabbing creatures from the yard, empty the ones you have in your hand/deck with Selvala's Stampede. This is a card I have yet to get into my list but I have every intention of adding.
Just from a quick look, Spellbreaker Behemoth is a great creature, but if you plan to be activating Mayael more, she will make them near uncounterable anyway with her activation aside from a short list of spells. Spearbreaker Behemoth I have noticed has been a great boon to the deck making things indestrucuble when I need it. I love extra combat steps, but Hellkite Charger may be hard to activate during a turn when you activate Mayael. That will be a total of 8RRRGW to activate both in one turn. That can be hard in a heavy mana cost deck. I'd recommend some cheap creatures that can fetch lands or generate mana. Lotus Cobra, Wood Elves, Sakura-Tribe Elder, and the above mentioned Karametra's Acolyte.
I hope this helps and take a look at my thread for more ideas.
These were the ones I was considering as the high end counterspells along with Force of Will, They pull the most weight with the flexibility they provide. My only question is how many of these should be included (High cmc)? They are better with Baral out for sure.
I did not think of this interaction when putting the list together. I wanted to use both and the interaction never occurred to me. Definitely going to include both now. Thanks for the synergy.
I was thinking of this list for cost reduction to make the most of our cheap spells and looting capability. Spell Burst and Rethink are actually quite good in this list. They can counter multiple/high cmc cards which is what this format is all about afterall. I will put them in the list.
As far as how many counters are too many counters, what is the consensus on that? I want a decent amount in here, both permanent sources of counters and instants for Baral's reduction. I think adding in a small wizard package is the direction I will take this as well as add in the necessary instant/sorcery spells.
I have not seen any other ideas with Baral yet and wanted to get some ideas on what is the best way to build him. Mostly, what is the correct amount of counter magic that we want to include in a list such as this? He triggers off of countering spells to loot a card which digs through the deck. A very powerful effect. And his cost reduction of instants and sorcerys is not something to overlook. It makes Rewind generate more mana. He may be more of a typical spellslinger build utilizing his cost reduction and looting ability. I feel more cost reduction cards should definitely be added to make our spells as cheap as possible and open up more mana for counterspells when needed. Here are my thoughts on the types of counterspells he wants to run.
Permanents
Of course there are quite a few instant ans sorcery counterspells to look at as well. How many should we include? Most, if not all of the 2 mana or less counterspells are good options.
CMC 0-1
CMC 2
And many of the CMC 3 counterspells are better with his cost reduction.
CMC 3
I'll leave the counterspells that cost more than 3 out, obviously these will be a case by case basis on which will make the cut. Aside from the counterspells, what do you guys think as far as the rest of the deck is concerned? What are some good wincons, should this be primarily spell slinger, or maybe even a tribal wizard tribal subtheme? Thanks for any input you have!
I've always been underwhelmed by Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit. Her single counter doesn't do much. She is a smaller version of Cathars' Crusade but more specific with the who gets the counter. I don't see anything in my list I would cut to include her unfortunately.
Inspiring Call is a pretty interesting card. I should always get a lot of value out of it. I do have many other creatures that will allow me to draw cards with +1/+1 counters so it may not be needed but having a burst draw might prove useful. I'll add it to the list for testing.
Vulturous Zombie has always been better in a deck with a lot of forced sacing, milling, or discarding. I feel he may be a little underwhelming for what he gives. If anything else, he is another big beater, but I'm not lacking on them.
Bioshift was something I'd considered. I still have it on the back of my mind to test. I think that it could be underwhelming as a one time trick which makes me more reluctant on its inclusion.
Skullbriar, the Walking Grave was on the list but did not make the cut. The fact that he needs to connect to gain counters is hard if he is not your commander where he can come down turn one or two. When I draw into him, if it is late game it will be hard for him to gain his own counters. I may revisit him in the future, but for now I will leave him out.
Thanks for the great suggestions. I'll test out Inspiring Call once everything comes in and I can post how the deck performs.
Spike Weaver has always been a great inclusion in these types of decks. I think he will be added to my list to test out. My only reservation with him is simply how defensive do I want to be with this deck. But the fact that when I tap out to attack my opponents, he can always come in handy to stop them from attacking me.
Mindless Automaton is a fantastic card and I absolutely feel he can find a place with the other cards like him such as Sage of Fables. I'll see what my drawing looks like to see if I can make room. The fact that he is a creature is great since I can recur him when needed.
Awesome suggestions! I will include my Cards to Test in the OP.
I normally would run Fertillid, however with only 10 basics and other cards that search them out, Nature's Lore, Farseek, Cultivate, Sakura-Tribe Elder, I feel it will probably not do much. I actually plan to drop to less than 10 basics with a few other duals/utility. If I see the need to adding in more basics, I'll probably revisit putting him in the list. Thanks for the great suggestion!
There are quite a few ways you could go with this. If you want tokens and benefits from hitting other players, using Gahiji, Honored One in Kyanio and Tiro will work very well on theme as well as using Edric, Spymaster of Trest. Some good token generators are Avenger of Zendikar, who focuses on lands, Rampaging Baloths, Omnath, Locus of Rage, Emeria Angel to name a few that can trigger off of their free land per turn. Garruk, Primal Hunter's ultimate puts 6/6 for each land you control. Liege of the Tangle, can make your lands into an army. Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer gets bigger the more lands you have. Nissa, Voice of Zendikar gets a lot of value. There are a lot of ways to focus on the land aspect of Kyanios and Tiro.