i posted earlier, but i think people were concentrating on other posts to answer my question. what is good sideboard for the mirror? my meta is nothing but elves which is why i tend to not run elves, but i feel like running them tonight. Is incremental blight good v mirror? what else is good?
Pretty much in the mirror, after Sb, you would want more spot removal (so the Slaughter Pacts, Shriekmaws or whatever else you might have), and Primal Command to help with the race and tutor for important creatures like Shriekmaw or Colossus. Blight is also an option, but it can be clunky at times, so I'd rather have the Command/Shriekmaw/Pact package.
And why are you guys wasting time arguing that Tarmogoyf is bad for this deck? Sure if you play it on turn 2 is can be a 0/1 at times. And sure, its not an elf nor fast. But is this deck really trying to win the game on turn 3-5? Have you guys tried dropping this turn 2-4 as a 3/4+? Against decks like Merfolk and RDW, theres not many ways they can deal with it. Or late game when you topdeck that 2/1 Archer facing down a Llanowar Elf? If you want to be super aggro, and go all tribal, thats a completley different deck. If goyf really isn't 'good' enough for this deck, don't you think the pros at the PT would realize and not play it? Seriously, people call goyf the best creature in Standard for a reason.
Yeah the Bitterblossoms seems reasonable but at least 3-4 Kitchen Finks and the Primal Commands are comming in. With 4 more potential Bitterblossoms, I'm not sure if we can take that many cards out of the MD, as there aren't really any terribly bad cards in the MD, that seem obvious to take out to make place for Blossoms. As for the Mind Shatters if you feel that theres no way you can sacriface some of the other matchups for the Shatters then the SB similar to Gindys is also really great. If you end up facing the mirror all day, then that'll end up being a even better decision. All I've done is advise people that Mind Shatter is potentially a great Sb for Ramp and Lark decks, and it should be worth some testing time.
*Edit - The Primal Commands are mainly for aggro/mirror, because of the life gain that helps the race, tutoring for the crucial Colossus and the time walk by putting a land on top. Oh and the shuffle yard against Lark. But against Merfolk I don't think its needed cuz its a bit costly, and since all of our creatures tend to be bigger anyways, more spot removal from SB is enough. Also, the Eyeblights seems pretty bad, even the matchup you say its good for (Doran), they would only be relavent on Doran, and everything else seems pointless. And I really don't see what else you bring it in against, so its basically a waste of SB space.
I run 3 Garruks, I would run 4 if I could make room (although sometimes it seems a bit overkill). I've put myself out of the people that say Garruks aren't as good because Faeries/Lark fly over and it dies so easily to Rdw. Garruk is a card that can add on tremendous pressure by making beasts, playing two spells on a turn or force your opponent to do whatever it takes to kill it or weaken it so they don't die to overrun.
I wouldn't side in the Blossoms against Doran because you already have enough cards comming in, and the Blossoms aren't the greatest in that matchup, but I'd run Bitterblossom against Ramp. The card shines most against decks with board sweepers as they help you rebuild and continue bashing (with the help of manlands) even after the ***s and Firespouts. Plus it speeds up the clock with Garruks. I also like the semi surprise factor of Blossom, even if people have been following the PT coverage I think they'll put you on a Squall Line/Cloudthresher Sb way more than the Bitterblossoms so when you go turn2 Blossom they are usually caught off guard, and most of the time Cloudthreshers would be sided out, etc. So things like bluffing Cloudthreshers/Squall Lines vs Faeries is still relavent.
Just out of curiosity, do Lark players side their Crovaxs in not knowing that we have Blossoms in our deck? I'd assume most players don't know we have the Blossom, and Crovax against our GB Elf deck seems half bad, as it is pretty slow, doesn't really kill anything, and most of the time just negates the Perfect's pump.
okay, so ive been testing bitterblossom and terror over nameless
bitterblossom: its a house vs faeries, ive had games where im on the play, i play turn 2 blossom, i dont have a seize, turn 3 blossom, they dont have one, i overrun them
or garruk for the win, when it comes to bitterblossom, it yes... does not have synergy, or wait... it does with garruk actually... so yes, it is good, and vs lark, although they are a combo deck, they will overun and fly over teferi's moat quick
So from saying Blossoms is a house to switching back to Squall Lines so quickly, I really want to know what you found in your testing that cause you to go back to Squall Lines.
With the 4 Rune Snags and maybe 1-2 Pacts (might or might not still be in deck after Sb) Lark have, theres a good chance the Mind Shatter would be resolving. Even if they have the Snags, they would probaly be forced to countering the early creatures like Vanquisher or Perfect.
Secondly with up to 6 mana elves and Wayfinders, this deck can also create mana pretty fast. Usually 5-7 by turn 4-5, so that would be the perfect Mind Shatter for 3-5. When a Mind Shatter hit, it will more than likely be his whole hand or maybe with at most 1-2 cards left. Sure, you might of put some creatures into the yard which he can bring back with Lark, but more importantly stuff that he does not want in the yard are also there, Moats, ***s, Larks/Body Doubles, etc. So now they would have to topdeck a Lark or something relavent while you're smashing them. Plus, removing cards from the yard is Primal Commands job.
I understand your argument towards the Faerie as I've tried testing with it. I'd agree the times when they attempt to Body Double with 2-3 creatures in yard or the rare times when they evoke Lark, its really great to surprise them with the Faerie. But its just too narrow of a Sb card that would only be relavent vs Lark and maybe the Persist Combo if anyone is running it. So why not play Mind Shatter, a card that does more against more decks, hit cards that really hurt you (***s/Moat) Because if they start evoking Lark or start attempting to loop the combo, the game has gone too late, and it is already unlikely for you to win.
they only play rune snag, how often are you going to get it countered
but in retrospect i guess i understand that its better to rip apart the graveyard in the new U/W/r version
they dont play mirror entity so its much harder for them to aggro out... i see where your coming from
@papertowels: im not sure i get something, vs mana ramp, you have shriekmaws, your own colossus's, your own garruk's, your own tarmogoyfs, slaughter pact and if you play it... terror vs r/g and b/g big mana
and vs g/w big mana, you chump oversoul like there is no tomorrow, or you overun them by having 6 creatures out with 2-3 man lands to there 1-2 dudes and attack then profane for the win
or chump and just keep shriekmawing to death, not to mention you have your own kitchen finks, IMO, mind shatter sucks hard and is kind of bad vs mana ramp
IMO, just take out the mind shatters from the board for +2 maw +1 finks, vs mana ramp, if they skred or incinerate a shriekmaw, okay.. just profane and bring it back, or just play another one, if they incinerate it, better it then you or your garruk IMO
idk, maybe im wrong, maybe ill eat my words, but it just doesn't seem to good to me, especially since discarding 2-3 cards at random vs mana ramp doesn't really do much if they harmonize or primal for a big guy next turn...
im still torn between hurrican + squall line vs bitterblossom in the board...
But the thing is you make the Ramp matchup a lot easier than it is. Sure you have your own colossus, and all the other creatures. But a Colossus to them is just a Mouth of Ronom, Oblivion Ring, Skred, ***, etc target as to you, its a near impossible creature for you to get rid of. They won't really try to race you because ramp deck will stick a Wall, ramp up for a while and *** or Firespout when you play enough creatures, then as you try to build up the army they stick a Colossus, Oversoul, etc which you cannot deal with.
So sure Shriekmaws/Slaughter Pacts can come in after board as they're Ok substitutes for getting rid of big guys, but trust me Shriekmaws won't be going as far as you would think with all the spot removal they have. The whole point of Mind Shatters is to play it early mid game to almost clear their whole hand which are usually all the business spells, as they're finishing ramping. But you really have to test it yourself, because you can't really just put them in your Sb just because I like it (and Mikey, I'm not sure how much you test but your opinion seems to be easily swayed as just a day or so before you're strongly considering Mind Shatters in Sb to today's where you're thinking it 'sucks hard'), the many times I've done it on turn 4-5 and clearing their hands has prove to me that it is worth those 3 Sb slots against those decks. The key thing is most of the time it is unexpecting, they think they're safe no matter what creatures you slam down, because a *** is comming next turn, followed by big creatures.
It seems like I'm getting too high on the card, and I've said before I'm not 100% about leaving them in, simply because of what I had to cut to make room for them. But from my testing they've been really good in the specific matchups.
i like mind shatter instead of the faerie, mind shatter can rip the wrath from there hand, faerie never does enough
saydie: i remember i heard randy say something that john finkel told him, most reveillark decks have 4 removal spells in 4 wraths
you try to make sure they kill only 4 good creatures with there 4 removal spells, same with faeries, use your man lands too your advantage vs mass removal decks instead of over committing
i mean hell, you got 8 man lands!
so anyway... i said this in my previous post
was i right? cause i keep going back and fourth in my head
but if i think about it, wolf skull is a really weak top deck after turn 8 or 9, same with paragon(cant give man lands trample, lol)
but garruk and tarmogoyf are always strong at any point
Not sure what there is to debate about.Tarmogoyf and Garruk simply outclasses Paragon and Wolk Skull, there might be some consideration if the deck was more of a mono green balls out elf deck, but in this GB Rockish type of Elf deck Goyf and Garruk are def better.
So I've got my sideboard down to:
4x Bitterblossom
3x Kitchen Finks
3x Mind Shatter
2x Primal Command
2x Slaughter Pact
1x Shriekmaw
I know by cutting Shriekmaws it can potentially weaken my mirror match, but I just don't want to be sitting across a Ramp deck and almost have nothing to bring in. I understand that the Shriekmaws can come in against Lark because of Moat, but I'd rather have Shatter taking it out of their hands than a 3/2 beating them down. The 1 Shriekmaw seems fine with the Primal Command package as removal tutor, but most of the times I'd be getting myself a Colossus anyways. Five cards comming in against mirror seems fine. But if I feel that during the next week, the meta has really shifted heavily to GB Elves and other green aggro decks, then I'd no problem bringing back more Shriekmaws and spot removal.
There is also no way that this deck has room for Bitterblossom. It doesn't fit with the style of the deck at all, and it is slower than this deck ever wants to be.
Sure, Bitterblossom isn't the fast card in the world. But the point is that against faeries, they are playing limited amounts of creature (usually 4 Scion, 4 Clique, 4 Sprite MD). After sideboards they would side out Scions because they're not going to race you now, but instead bring in Damnations and Masticores, in an attempt to clear the board and clog the ground to control the game.[/font]
Now the game plan vs faeries changes. Obviously you still try to get out the gate as fast as possible, but if they Damnation, or even have a Masticore with a few tokens, that can totally stop you in your tracks and they can easily stablize with Commands and Cliques.
Bitterblossom helps create early pressure (A 1/1 a turn isn't terribly slow), refill after damnation and fly over Masticore. Isn't that a lot better than holding a grip full of Cloudthreshers and Squall Lines, when they have limited amount of flyers and you either don't have much creatures due to Damnation or can't get through because of Masticore.
I understand Blossom doesn't really fit the 'style' of this deck as I've never agree to people playing Blossom in the MD at the early stages. But in the SB against even more slow and controling decks, Blossoms are a lot better than Squall Lines and Cloudthreshers especially with Faeries evolving into a more control deck.
Yeah, the Bitterblossoms are great because they are not just pinpoint slots in the side board for a specific deck like Threshers and Squall lines were. Against Lark, or slower decks (like ramp) that don't punish you for the slow life loss are decks Blossom shines against.
Yeah I'll probaly switch over to Terror as well. My main arguments towards Inversion was the Goyf pump and more elves in the deck (Helps Palace and Vanquisher). But with more potentially more mirror matchs and another Colossus in the deck, terrors should be fine.
well actually, vs lark we have primal command and shriekmaw, but mind shatter isn't a bad idea
i used to play it in mannequin and it worked amazing, also i would not cut wayfinder
i just went down to 2 garruk and i think ill take out the squall lines and cloudthreshers in favor of 4 blossoms and the 3rd garruk, at least im playing the 3rd garruk in the board, which playing 2 main instead of 3 isn't that much of a bad edge
as for mind shatter, i have no room... sadly... what do you play papertowels? 2 or 3
actually, whats your deck if i may asks?
Yeah against Lark, we already have a few options to bring in. But other than the Commands, the rest are pretty weak (Shriekmaw, and potentially Squall Lines) Shriekmaw is a reactive card to Moat, with 4 Thoughtseizes and 3 Mind Shatter, hopefully we'll be able to rip out the important cards (Lark, ***, Moat, etc.) And follow it up with Command to shuffle them back into library to avoid being topdecked with Lark.
My list I tested before the PT was very similar to Gindy. With the differences being MD, -2 Garruks +2 Primal Commands, -1 Wayfinder + 1 Boreal Druid,
-1 Thoughtseize +1 Shriekmaw, -1 Colossus +1 Profane Command and Inversions over Terrors.
But now, with so many creature decks, Garruks should def be in the MD and it is proven that Colossus is the nuts. Now I've changed the list so its identical to Gindy's except -1 Wayfinder +1 Garruk, and still not sure with Inversion and Terror. Gindy's Sb also looks good, so the only changes I made is -2 Squall Line, -2 Cloudthreshers + 4 Bitterblossom, which leaves us with:
I'm considering cutting the lone Thresher and a Finks for at least 2 Shatters, I really want to fit the 3rd one in there as I think 3 Shatters is the optimal number, but everything in Sb seems so tight.
*Also I don't think have cards like Garruk or Profane Command in Sbs is good, as they are too good and almost always should be in the MD, having 1-2 in Sb, just seems akward, and a waste of valueable Sb space.
I don't understand why anybody would not include Primal Commands in their Sb. It just does so much against so many different decks. Yes, you can play Krosan Grip that will help remove the Moat, but does it do as much as the Command, which can shuffle Lark's graveyard, gain 7 against RDW, or gain tremendous tempo by putting a land on top and finding a Shriekmaw, Colossus.
Also, I strongly advise testing Bitterblossoms against Faeries in place of the Squall Lines and Cloudthreshers. The games we win vs Faeries is when we put a lot of pressure of them, forcing them to play Damnation or lose. We are the aggro deck of the matchup, the Blossom make their flyers less scary, and along with manlands we are somewhat fine with Damnation. It just seems really good, either with Garruks (honestly think it should be -1 Wayfinder +1 Garruk from Gindy's list), fighting their flyers, refilling creatures after Damnation or flying over Masticore, all looks better compare to Threshers and Squall Lines.
With the Mind Shatters, again you have to test it out yourself. At first I had doubts because a 5-7 cost spell in an elf deck doesn't seem too great. But with mana elves and Wayfinders, it make it a lot easier and faster. Plus, the sb right doesn't seem to have anything against the Ramp decks or even Lark. Going into a tourny like Regionals, the field will be diverse, and you would want something for all the popular decks.
What do you guys feel about the Bitterblossom Sb plan against faeries? It seemed to work out well for Nakamura, because now Faeries don't even run the 3-4 Pestermites/Vend. Cliques in favour of terrors. And after boards they tend to be even more creature short cutting Scions for more controlling cards like Masticore and Damnations.
If the 'new' faeries is like PV's version then, having Cloudthreshers and Squall Lines seem to be strictly worse compare to Bitterblossoms. And I also think 3 Mind Shatters should have a place in the Sb. The current sb seems pretty narrow, targeting Faeries, RDW, and Mirror/Rock decks only. A Mind Shatter for 3-5 can be easily played by turn 4-6, and will pretty much destroy your opponent. It would go against all Ramp decks (GW, GR, GB), Lark, Wafo Deck, and random controlish decks you can encounter at Regionals.
Dude, Vexing Shusher is the very only target vs counterspells. That is pretty obvious. But we must admit that any player with +1700 or >100 IQ will counterspell your wish to prevent you from tutoring Vexing Shusher...I mean... WE ALL KNOW he is the format. And also I know that Oversoul of dusk is annoying against riftwing...if he resolves obv.
I´d rather draw Vexing Shusher against a control match than draw Glittering Wish and pray it resolves....
Please don't make it sound like just because you're up against a deck with counters in it, nothing will EVER resolve. Being a Faeries player myself, I know that just because I'm running something like 12 counters doesn't mean I know I will counter every important spell my opponent plays. Obv I know the Wish has to be countered. But do I actually have one of the counters in hand? Do I want to save it because he still has 4 mana open? etc.
Playing against decks with counters in it, you have to be smart and bait out counters. Sure, Wish will probaly be countered, but it is a card that HAS to be countered. Because it only costs 2, there can be a lot of times where you play a harmonize (which is likely to be countered), then you playing the Wish. Or you playing a Wish that will likely be countered then following that up with a evoked Cloudthresher which wrecks them.
I understand your arguments towards Wish, as I'm not a 100% supporter myself. But saying Wish sucks just because it will be countered and rather playing like 4 Shushers in SB instead is a bit too much. Especially when Wish is so good in all the other matchups.
The big mana decks tend to have problems against counter decks because most of their spells are likely to be countered, but if you play smart, eventually 1-2 important spells will land. But with a deck like this with so many powerful creatures only resolving 1-2 spells/creatures (Crovax/Thresher) is devastating.
On a side note, would Faerie Macabre be able to replace Stonecloaker? I understand cloaker being able to continueously remove cards from the yard. But sometimes when Lark evokes, it only requires removing 2 cards at once to do the job, plus its not like you will always be leaving 6+ mana up to use cloaker.
I'd say Johm's list is pretty optimal. But I would suggest the following:
-1 Twilight Shepherd
+1 Oversoul of Dusk
Oversoul is just too good of a card to be only playing two in the deck. I really think the third Oversoul is a lot better than the random 1 of Twilight.
-1 Cloudthresher/Aeon Chronicler
+1 Crovax
I haven't really tested the Chronicler, but it seems pretty slow. And Crovax would be a game win if it lands vs Faeries and is very helpful vs random elf/goblin decks. Plus by pulling out 1 Crovax from the SB it frees up two spaces.
Also I think there should be at least 2-3 Mouth of Ronoms in the deck, potentially replacing Reflecting Pool? Because they seem a bit out of place as you never need double of any of the splashed colours.
So basically we all know the more popular decks out there are Lark, Faeries, some sort of RDW, G/x Aggro, etc. And its obvious that Lark is a bad matchup (but I really thing with 3 Primal Commands MD, at least 3 Stonecloakers, Acid Mosses, the matchup is very winnable), we should at least try to make the Faerie matchup a lot better, as this deck should already trumps RDW, and MOST of the G/x Aggro (yes, I know Teeg can be a problem). With just 3-4 Cloudthreshers, a Crovax, and Shusher/Firespout it doesn't seem like the matchup is anymore than a 55-65 advantage for us. Would Raking Canopy (more dedicated hate) or Guttural Response be good options?
This is because I would never see myself really needing to Wishing for Finks or the extra Moat that you can either bring into MD, or another extra for the Wishes might not be too effectively. I even don't see why the Enforcer needs to be in there, but I guess it can win you games against random Mono Black decks popping out.
Oh and lastly, would a 1 of Loxodon Warhammer be a good inclusion? This might seem random, but I used to run 1 in the R/G Ramp deck and the times you put it on a goyf or even siege gang tokens, it changes the game dramatically. I can see it being able to race G/x Aggro or Faeries because of the big creatures that are available in the deck.
So what do you guys think? Any ideas/comments are welcomed.
Pretty much in the mirror, after Sb, you would want more spot removal (so the Slaughter Pacts, Shriekmaws or whatever else you might have), and Primal Command to help with the race and tutor for important creatures like Shriekmaw or Colossus. Blight is also an option, but it can be clunky at times, so I'd rather have the Command/Shriekmaw/Pact package.
And why are you guys wasting time arguing that Tarmogoyf is bad for this deck? Sure if you play it on turn 2 is can be a 0/1 at times. And sure, its not an elf nor fast. But is this deck really trying to win the game on turn 3-5? Have you guys tried dropping this turn 2-4 as a 3/4+? Against decks like Merfolk and RDW, theres not many ways they can deal with it. Or late game when you topdeck that 2/1 Archer facing down a Llanowar Elf? If you want to be super aggro, and go all tribal, thats a completley different deck. If goyf really isn't 'good' enough for this deck, don't you think the pros at the PT would realize and not play it? Seriously, people call goyf the best creature in Standard for a reason.
*Edit - The Primal Commands are mainly for aggro/mirror, because of the life gain that helps the race, tutoring for the crucial Colossus and the time walk by putting a land on top. Oh and the shuffle yard against Lark. But against Merfolk I don't think its needed cuz its a bit costly, and since all of our creatures tend to be bigger anyways, more spot removal from SB is enough. Also, the Eyeblights seems pretty bad, even the matchup you say its good for (Doran), they would only be relavent on Doran, and everything else seems pointless. And I really don't see what else you bring it in against, so its basically a waste of SB space.
I wouldn't side in the Blossoms against Doran because you already have enough cards comming in, and the Blossoms aren't the greatest in that matchup, but I'd run Bitterblossom against Ramp. The card shines most against decks with board sweepers as they help you rebuild and continue bashing (with the help of manlands) even after the ***s and Firespouts. Plus it speeds up the clock with Garruks. I also like the semi surprise factor of Blossom, even if people have been following the PT coverage I think they'll put you on a Squall Line/Cloudthresher Sb way more than the Bitterblossoms so when you go turn2 Blossom they are usually caught off guard, and most of the time Cloudthreshers would be sided out, etc. So things like bluffing Cloudthreshers/Squall Lines vs Faeries is still relavent.
So from saying Blossoms is a house to switching back to Squall Lines so quickly, I really want to know what you found in your testing that cause you to go back to Squall Lines.
Secondly with up to 6 mana elves and Wayfinders, this deck can also create mana pretty fast. Usually 5-7 by turn 4-5, so that would be the perfect Mind Shatter for 3-5. When a Mind Shatter hit, it will more than likely be his whole hand or maybe with at most 1-2 cards left. Sure, you might of put some creatures into the yard which he can bring back with Lark, but more importantly stuff that he does not want in the yard are also there, Moats, ***s, Larks/Body Doubles, etc. So now they would have to topdeck a Lark or something relavent while you're smashing them. Plus, removing cards from the yard is Primal Commands job.
I understand your argument towards the Faerie as I've tried testing with it. I'd agree the times when they attempt to Body Double with 2-3 creatures in yard or the rare times when they evoke Lark, its really great to surprise them with the Faerie. But its just too narrow of a Sb card that would only be relavent vs Lark and maybe the Persist Combo if anyone is running it. So why not play Mind Shatter, a card that does more against more decks, hit cards that really hurt you (***s/Moat) Because if they start evoking Lark or start attempting to loop the combo, the game has gone too late, and it is already unlikely for you to win.
But the thing is you make the Ramp matchup a lot easier than it is. Sure you have your own colossus, and all the other creatures. But a Colossus to them is just a Mouth of Ronom, Oblivion Ring, Skred, ***, etc target as to you, its a near impossible creature for you to get rid of. They won't really try to race you because ramp deck will stick a Wall, ramp up for a while and *** or Firespout when you play enough creatures, then as you try to build up the army they stick a Colossus, Oversoul, etc which you cannot deal with.
So sure Shriekmaws/Slaughter Pacts can come in after board as they're Ok substitutes for getting rid of big guys, but trust me Shriekmaws won't be going as far as you would think with all the spot removal they have. The whole point of Mind Shatters is to play it early mid game to almost clear their whole hand which are usually all the business spells, as they're finishing ramping. But you really have to test it yourself, because you can't really just put them in your Sb just because I like it (and Mikey, I'm not sure how much you test but your opinion seems to be easily swayed as just a day or so before you're strongly considering Mind Shatters in Sb to today's where you're thinking it 'sucks hard'), the many times I've done it on turn 4-5 and clearing their hands has prove to me that it is worth those 3 Sb slots against those decks. The key thing is most of the time it is unexpecting, they think they're safe no matter what creatures you slam down, because a *** is comming next turn, followed by big creatures.
It seems like I'm getting too high on the card, and I've said before I'm not 100% about leaving them in, simply because of what I had to cut to make room for them. But from my testing they've been really good in the specific matchups.
Not sure what there is to debate about.Tarmogoyf and Garruk simply outclasses Paragon and Wolk Skull, there might be some consideration if the deck was more of a mono green balls out elf deck, but in this GB Rockish type of Elf deck Goyf and Garruk are def better.
So I've got my sideboard down to:
4x Bitterblossom
3x Kitchen Finks
3x Mind Shatter
2x Primal Command
2x Slaughter Pact
1x Shriekmaw
I know by cutting Shriekmaws it can potentially weaken my mirror match, but I just don't want to be sitting across a Ramp deck and almost have nothing to bring in. I understand that the Shriekmaws can come in against Lark because of Moat, but I'd rather have Shatter taking it out of their hands than a 3/2 beating them down. The 1 Shriekmaw seems fine with the Primal Command package as removal tutor, but most of the times I'd be getting myself a Colossus anyways. Five cards comming in against mirror seems fine. But if I feel that during the next week, the meta has really shifted heavily to GB Elves and other green aggro decks, then I'd no problem bringing back more Shriekmaws and spot removal.
Sure, Bitterblossom isn't the fast card in the world. But the point is that against faeries, they are playing limited amounts of creature (usually 4 Scion, 4 Clique, 4 Sprite MD). After sideboards they would side out Scions because they're not going to race you now, but instead bring in Damnations and Masticores, in an attempt to clear the board and clog the ground to control the game.[/font]
Now the game plan vs faeries changes. Obviously you still try to get out the gate as fast as possible, but if they Damnation, or even have a Masticore with a few tokens, that can totally stop you in your tracks and they can easily stablize with Commands and Cliques.
Bitterblossom helps create early pressure (A 1/1 a turn isn't terribly slow), refill after damnation and fly over Masticore. Isn't that a lot better than holding a grip full of Cloudthreshers and Squall Lines, when they have limited amount of flyers and you either don't have much creatures due to Damnation or can't get through because of Masticore.
I understand Blossom doesn't really fit the 'style' of this deck as I've never agree to people playing Blossom in the MD at the early stages. But in the SB against even more slow and controling decks, Blossoms are a lot better than Squall Lines and Cloudthreshers especially with Faeries evolving into a more control deck.
Yeah I'll probaly switch over to Terror as well. My main arguments towards Inversion was the Goyf pump and more elves in the deck (Helps Palace and Vanquisher). But with more potentially more mirror matchs and another Colossus in the deck, terrors should be fine.
Yeah against Lark, we already have a few options to bring in. But other than the Commands, the rest are pretty weak (Shriekmaw, and potentially Squall Lines) Shriekmaw is a reactive card to Moat, with 4 Thoughtseizes and 3 Mind Shatter, hopefully we'll be able to rip out the important cards (Lark, ***, Moat, etc.) And follow it up with Command to shuffle them back into library to avoid being topdecked with Lark.
My list I tested before the PT was very similar to Gindy. With the differences being MD, -2 Garruks +2 Primal Commands, -1 Wayfinder + 1 Boreal Druid,
-1 Thoughtseize +1 Shriekmaw, -1 Colossus +1 Profane Command and Inversions over Terrors.
But now, with so many creature decks, Garruks should def be in the MD and it is proven that Colossus is the nuts. Now I've changed the list so its identical to Gindy's except -1 Wayfinder +1 Garruk, and still not sure with Inversion and Terror. Gindy's Sb also looks good, so the only changes I made is -2 Squall Line, -2 Cloudthreshers + 4 Bitterblossom, which leaves us with:
4 Bitterblossom
1 Cloudthresher
4 Kitchen Finks
2 Primal Command
2 Shriekmaw
2 Slaughter Pact
I'm considering cutting the lone Thresher and a Finks for at least 2 Shatters, I really want to fit the 3rd one in there as I think 3 Shatters is the optimal number, but everything in Sb seems so tight.
*Also I don't think have cards like Garruk or Profane Command in Sbs is good, as they are too good and almost always should be in the MD, having 1-2 in Sb, just seems akward, and a waste of valueable Sb space.
Also, I strongly advise testing Bitterblossoms against Faeries in place of the Squall Lines and Cloudthreshers. The games we win vs Faeries is when we put a lot of pressure of them, forcing them to play Damnation or lose. We are the aggro deck of the matchup, the Blossom make their flyers less scary, and along with manlands we are somewhat fine with Damnation. It just seems really good, either with Garruks (honestly think it should be -1 Wayfinder +1 Garruk from Gindy's list), fighting their flyers, refilling creatures after Damnation or flying over Masticore, all looks better compare to Threshers and Squall Lines.
With the Mind Shatters, again you have to test it out yourself. At first I had doubts because a 5-7 cost spell in an elf deck doesn't seem too great. But with mana elves and Wayfinders, it make it a lot easier and faster. Plus, the sb right doesn't seem to have anything against the Ramp decks or even Lark. Going into a tourny like Regionals, the field will be diverse, and you would want something for all the popular decks.
If the 'new' faeries is like PV's version then, having Cloudthreshers and Squall Lines seem to be strictly worse compare to Bitterblossoms. And I also think 3 Mind Shatters should have a place in the Sb. The current sb seems pretty narrow, targeting Faeries, RDW, and Mirror/Rock decks only. A Mind Shatter for 3-5 can be easily played by turn 4-6, and will pretty much destroy your opponent. It would go against all Ramp decks (GW, GR, GB), Lark, Wafo Deck, and random controlish decks you can encounter at Regionals.
Please don't make it sound like just because you're up against a deck with counters in it, nothing will EVER resolve. Being a Faeries player myself, I know that just because I'm running something like 12 counters doesn't mean I know I will counter every important spell my opponent plays. Obv I know the Wish has to be countered. But do I actually have one of the counters in hand? Do I want to save it because he still has 4 mana open? etc.
Playing against decks with counters in it, you have to be smart and bait out counters. Sure, Wish will probaly be countered, but it is a card that HAS to be countered. Because it only costs 2, there can be a lot of times where you play a harmonize (which is likely to be countered), then you playing the Wish. Or you playing a Wish that will likely be countered then following that up with a evoked Cloudthresher which wrecks them.
I understand your arguments towards Wish, as I'm not a 100% supporter myself. But saying Wish sucks just because it will be countered and rather playing like 4 Shushers in SB instead is a bit too much. Especially when Wish is so good in all the other matchups.
The big mana decks tend to have problems against counter decks because most of their spells are likely to be countered, but if you play smart, eventually 1-2 important spells will land. But with a deck like this with so many powerful creatures only resolving 1-2 spells/creatures (Crovax/Thresher) is devastating.
On a side note, would Faerie Macabre be able to replace Stonecloaker? I understand cloaker being able to continueously remove cards from the yard. But sometimes when Lark evokes, it only requires removing 2 cards at once to do the job, plus its not like you will always be leaving 6+ mana up to use cloaker.
-1 Twilight Shepherd
+1 Oversoul of Dusk
Oversoul is just too good of a card to be only playing two in the deck. I really think the third Oversoul is a lot better than the random 1 of Twilight.
-1 Cloudthresher/Aeon Chronicler
+1 Crovax
I haven't really tested the Chronicler, but it seems pretty slow. And Crovax would be a game win if it lands vs Faeries and is very helpful vs random elf/goblin decks. Plus by pulling out 1 Crovax from the SB it frees up two spaces.
Also I think there should be at least 2-3 Mouth of Ronoms in the deck, potentially replacing Reflecting Pool? Because they seem a bit out of place as you never need double of any of the splashed colours.
So basically we all know the more popular decks out there are Lark, Faeries, some sort of RDW, G/x Aggro, etc. And its obvious that Lark is a bad matchup (but I really thing with 3 Primal Commands MD, at least 3 Stonecloakers, Acid Mosses, the matchup is very winnable), we should at least try to make the Faerie matchup a lot better, as this deck should already trumps RDW, and MOST of the G/x Aggro (yes, I know Teeg can be a problem). With just 3-4 Cloudthreshers, a Crovax, and Shusher/Firespout it doesn't seem like the matchup is anymore than a 55-65 advantage for us. Would Raking Canopy (more dedicated hate) or Guttural Response be good options?
My suggested SB changes from Johm list would be something like:
3 Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
3 Stonecloaker
3 Guttural Response
1 Teferi's Moat
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Firespout
1 Mystic Enforcer
1 Dawnglow Infusion
1 Harmonic Sliver
This is because I would never see myself really needing to Wishing for Finks or the extra Moat that you can either bring into MD, or another extra for the Wishes might not be too effectively. I even don't see why the Enforcer needs to be in there, but I guess it can win you games against random Mono Black decks popping out.
Oh and lastly, would a 1 of Loxodon Warhammer be a good inclusion? This might seem random, but I used to run 1 in the R/G Ramp deck and the times you put it on a goyf or even siege gang tokens, it changes the game dramatically. I can see it being able to race G/x Aggro or Faeries because of the big creatures that are available in the deck.
So what do you guys think? Any ideas/comments are welcomed.