This isn't better than Path to Exile in older formats, it just compliments it. I suppose if you played 4 copies of Mana Leak and Angelic Ascension you could not use Path to Exile but Path being only one mana is pretty important to. This is only in the running because it can exile planeswalkers at instant speed for 2 Mana. It might not ba an all-star in standard but anything that exiles creatures and planeswalkers for just 2 Mana is going to be big business in standard. It might not be a 4 of in anything but whatever you are trading it for is probably going to be in your favor!
Yeah, just like Path to Exile's "A mode" was a 1 Mana ramp spell. The decks that want this card have very little to "trade" for a 4/4 flying angel. However they usually don't mind giving you a 4/4 they can get rid of very easily.
More like end of t2 exile whatever you just played. T3 play T3feri and bounce your angel. Draw a card. A mode for this right there.
See, the reason everyone is comparing this to Path or Trophy is because those cards gave relatively minor benefits to your opponent, while this one gives them something much better. My point was that people seem to be assuming "the decks that want this" are the decks that don't play creatures but are lacking cheap removal, and I'm not sure that's the case. I mean, can you imagine exiling their dude, taking a hit from a 4/4, then following it up with a shatter the sky? You're giving your opponent a 3-for-1. You'd have to really value the planeswalker killing aspect of this. Maybe it's worth it, but I'm not sure.
The only way blue/white control is getting rid of a 4/4 flyer "very easily" without ending up down a card is Teferi, as you mentioned, one of the strongest cards in standard that doesn't need any help. What t2 threat are you so eager to exile so that your teferi can bounce the angel? But yeah, I'll give you that this is good with Teferi. I just don't know if that is a reason to run this.
Add it plays better with Snapcaster Mage and doesn't non-bo with Mana Leak and this cards A mode is clearly the destruction mode.
Not sure I follow. Either "mode" of this card plays fine with Snapcaster mage - snappy even gives you the little body to upgrade for the angel, if you're so inclined. Not sure what you mean by either mode of this card being a nonbo (or combo?) with Mana Leak. What are you comparing it to in that regard?
You clearly don't understand UW control decks in Modern and Legacy!
First giving your opponent a land is the worst thing you cand do in modern. It's like giving them a Time Walk. It's basically a 0 for 2. If you don't understand that than I really don't know what to tell you.
Second there are lots of things I want to answer immediately that I can't in modern or legacy right now. LOTV, Karn Liberated, Wrenn and Six. Just to name a couple. Stuff I can't deal with without countering it outright. I can deal with 4/4 all day. Trust me it annoys the crap out of people.
The fact that it can target and is a good target for a "B mode" is what makes it so good.
The mode terminology was someone else. I just went with it. Ask them about that.
Yeah, just like Path to Exile's "A mode" was a 1 Mana ramp spell. The decks that want this card have very little to "trade" for a 4/4 flying angel. However they usually don't mind giving you a 4/4 they can get rid of very easily.
More like end of t2 exile whatever you just played. T3 play T3feri and bounce your angel. Draw a card. A mode for this right there.
See, the reason everyone is comparing this to Path or Trophy is because those cards gave relatively minor benefits to your opponent, while this one gives them something much better. My point was that people seem to be assuming "the decks that want this" are the decks that don't play creatures but are lacking cheap removal, and I'm not sure that's the case. I mean, can you imagine exiling their dude, taking a hit from a 4/4, then following it up with a shatter the sky? You're giving your opponent a 3-for-1. You'd have to really value the planeswalker killing aspect of this. Maybe it's worth it, but I'm not sure.
The only way blue/white control is getting rid of a 4/4 flyer "very easily" without ending up down a card is Teferi, as you mentioned, one of the strongest cards in standard that doesn't need any help. What t2 threat are you so eager to exile so that your teferi can bounce the angel? But yeah, I'll give you that this is good with Teferi. I just don't know if that is a reason to run this.
Add it plays better with Snapcaster Mage and doesn't non-bo with Mana Leak and this cards A mode is clearly the destruction mode.
Not sure I follow. Either "mode" of this card plays fine with Snapcaster mage - snappy even gives you the little body to upgrade for the angel, if you're so inclined. Not sure what you mean by either mode of this card being a nonbo (or combo?) with Mana Leak. What are you comparing it to in that regard?
Clearly you don't play much modern or legacy!
First giving your opponent a land is like giving them a Time Walk. Giving them a 4/4 is often better than ramping them.
There are a lot of things I want to answer on my opponents t2 or t3. Why don't I mention the highlights. T2 Wrenn and Six, T3 is a tie between LOTV and Karn Liberated. I'd rather deal with a 4/4.
Using it on Snapcaster Mage would be a B mode/ A&B mode option (if you target another copy with the flashback ability) but Snapcaster Mage would probably be like the only creature in the deck.
2 Mana answers to planeswalkers are Always going to see play in standard!
Quote from haloreaper117 »
Yeah, just like Path to Exile's "A mode" was a 1 Mana ramp spell. The decks that want this card have very little to "trade" for a 4/4 flying angel. However they usually don't mind giving you a 4/4 they can get rid of very easily.
More like end of t2 exile whatever you just played. T3 play T3feri and bounce your angel. Draw a card. A mode for this right there.
See, the reason everyone is comparing this to Path or Trophy is because those cards gave relatively minor benefits to your opponent, while this one gives them something much better. My point was that people seem to be assuming "the decks that want this" are the decks that don't play creatures but are lacking cheap removal, and I'm not sure that's the case. I mean, can you imagine exiling their dude, taking a hit from a 4/4, then following it up with a shatter the sky? You're giving your opponent a 3-for-1. You'd have to really value the planeswalker killing aspect of this. Maybe it's worth it, but I'm not sure.
The only way blue/white control is getting rid of a 4/4 flyer "very easily" without ending up down a card is Teferi, as you mentioned, one of the strongest cards in standard that doesn't need any help. What t2 threat are you so eager to exile so that your teferi can bounce the angel? But yeah, I'll give you that this is good with Teferi. I just don't know if that is a reason to run this.
Add it plays better with Snapcaster Mage and doesn't non-bo with Mana Leak and this cards A mode is clearly the destruction mode.
Not sure I follow. Either "mode" of this card plays fine with Snapcaster mage - snappy even gives you the little body to upgrade for the angel, if you're so inclined. Not sure what you mean by either mode of this card being a nonbo (or combo?) with Mana Leak. What are you comparing it to in that regard?
Clearly you don't play modern or legacy at all.
First giving your opponent a creature in non rotating formats just to blow up a creature is like giving your opponent a time walk. Giving them a 4/4 is better because you plan on dealing with those all the time.
There are lots of things you want to kill dead (exile) on any turn of the game. If you can think of a threat in modern or legacy you wouldn't want to answer on t2 or t3 let me know!
It combos well with Snapcaster because it gives you a good target for a "B mode" while being castable off the ability. This isn't the main reason you play it.
The "mode" idea was introduced by someone else. I went with it.
Yeah, just like Path to Exile's "A mode" was a 1 Mana ramp spell. The decks that want this card have very little to "trade" for a 4/4 flying angel. However they usually don't mind giving you a 4/4 they can get rid of very easily.
More like end of t2 exile whatever you just played. T3 play T3feri and bounce your angel. Draw a card. A mode for this right there.
Add it plays better with Snapcaster Mage and doesn't non-bo with Mana Leak and this cards A mode is clearly the destruction mode.
In constructed it's still good. It almost always trades for profit with a planeswalker. UW based control decks often have a soft spot in terms of dealing with walkers at instant speed. The trade of will be worth it as UW control decks will cast a sweeper afterward. The fact that it leaves a 4/4 will be a benefit as it could double as a win condition. This is gas and I have the "I told you so's" on pre order.
Yeah people said Path to Exile and Beast Within wouldn't see play either. I'll snap these up from anyone who thinks they are worthless too and cash out if they go gangbusters. For the record, I think this will see play in modern, pioneer, and standard.
Wow, so I guess pauper isn't much different than legacy or modern!
I'm probably going to still build a couple of decks because they are really cheap, I'd be less enthusiastic without Brainstorm, Ponder, and Preordain being legal though. As much as haters going to want to hate on big blue cantrips and Delver they are also a draw to other players being in the format in the first place. Also banning flicker effects seem silly to me too. I always love a good Tron ban but are flicker effects really that bad? Sorry if that last line was super ignorant. I'm just used to Tron doing truly terrifying things like T3 Karn and T4 Ulamog!!
Way late but if you are still stuck, poison might also fit. I'd try base UG with B basically for removal. Could try base GB with U for protaction but I think that would rule out Blighted agent witch is brutal if left unchecked!
SaltMaster 5000, my apologies for coming late to the party.
It seems more like you have some personal issues with the Hexproof deck. There are honestly too many ways to deal with hexproof creatures for it to be considered a problem. Plus it's a glass cannon! Have you tied running sacrifice effects in your sideboard?
If it at all validates your point shroud the keyword ability was created because it had been written out on so many cards that it had become something of an uncommon evergreen effect and was easier to just write it as a keyword ability. Unfortunately after just a few short years it became apparent that the shortcut of making it a keyword ability was causing an alarming amount of game rules violations because people just kept forgetting NOBODYcould target it and it was often played just like the Hexproof keyword ability of the modern era. After a few short turns the game state becomes completely compromised and the judge starts issuing game loses! They replaced Shroud with Hexproof solely to reduce all the game play violations and to make it play "more intuitively". It is a really stupid reason to change a rule but I can't even accurately describe the level of headaches Shroud cause tournament organizers. After that it turned out that small hexproof creatures with a bunch of enchantments was a viable strategy and had it's fans so they ultimately decided value added. Just an example of why hexproof decks are a benifit to the game, a friend of mine was looking to get into Modern and did not like burn. Hexproof.deck was at the time affordable, intuitive, and simple. It worked out great for him and he really enjoyed it. He's not a great technical player but really enjoys playing magic and Hexproof.dec would probably suit him well in pauper also! I used to feel the way you do until I realized I was just kind of being salty.
Looks like I got in too late for this one. I miss playing against birthing pod most! I loved the games where I could Shadow of a Doubt on T2, Spreading Sea T3, and Ajani Vengeant T4 and just lock them out on mana! Birthing Pod is more a victim of mob hate banning than Splinter Twin was. Not that Splinter Twin got a fair shake either though!
I'm going to start be saying I'm not trying to be a jerk. The short answer is there just isn't. Fetchlands are really necessary and essential for success in a large percentage of decks in Modern. Unless you have a good reason not to play them that is. If nothing else you will find yourself flooding out to opponents playing them as they thin lands from your deck and leave you with more relevant draws in the late game. There are alternative strategies that don't use them that might be cheaper. There are decks that are more likely to win without them that might be cheaper. Deaths Shadow is definitely not one of them. Unless you are ok with losing a lot and are just playing for fun. If it helps try not thinking about them as pieces of cardboard but tools or game pieces. Unfortunately for newer players looking to get into Modern it is not cheap! I have seen a lot (I mean a lot!) of people try to skimp on investment and get frustrated when they can't win and just quit playing magic all together. If the price is too steep I would suggest Pauper or Pioneer. Pauper will let you use older cards like brainstorm and lighting bolt. Pioneer uses newer cards but explicitly bans fetchlands. Again I'm not trying to be mean but I am only being honest.
@ haloreaper117- Your uninformed. Standard has only ever had fetches in them three times in M:tG’s history. The only time they caused a problem was when WotC, after saying for years fetches are fine in Standard without fetchable dual lands, included them in a Standard with fetchable duals.
And the shuffling taking up to much streaming time is a hollow excuse because not enough people watch streams of players playing games with real cards because there boring to watch. The heavy stream watchings are from Arena where shuffling time isn’t an issue.
I'm not uninformed, I played through all of those standard formats. I strongly believe they are too strong for standard legal sets for the reasons I mentioned above, only one of which you barely attempted to despute. Increased shuffling is the worst argument, I'll give you that. My other arguments are well informed and have experience behind them. Even in Zendikar block people were running 4 and 5 color decks then also. Landfall caused some power level issues as well. They reduce variance in game play and thinned decks or filled graveyards too quickly. Odyssey/Onslaught format ring a ball? I'd say it's been a developmental nightmare since they first printed them. By the way, you can't call someone uninformed and launch a super lame uninformed argument. At least articulate yourself and pose an actual debate! Regardless of my opinion I would say this banning indicates strongly that they won't be printing the fetch lands in a standard legal expansion again. I also believe if they do for some reason do decide to reprint them at some point they will then ban them in Pioneer as well. It is a smart move on WOTC part too! They can't really print more efficient lands, the shocks and fetches already come really close to breaking the basic land supremacy rule for starters. So in an effort to make more land cycles (and other cards that can't compete in other non- rotating formats too but that is a separate related topic) actually have value they would need a format that supplies demand for lands that aren't fetch lands.
Deathrite, Cruise and Dig are all fueled by fetches in the formats they're banned. They warped formats but I don't seeing them getting hit here because they are still pretty medium casting wise without the fetches and cheap cantrips that are ubiquitous in formats like legacy or even modern. I don't even see Aetherworks Marvel getting banned because of how anemic the energy mechanic is. Aside from the mechanic, the early shakings of the format are always defined by busted combo or really fast aggro and that's what kept marvel out of being big in Frontier. If anything gets banned it'll either be Saheeli/Felidar or T3/Oko. The recent planeswalkers are really strong in other formats and that is even more compounded in Pioneer. The format doesn't really have clean answers to Planeswalkers outside of AssTrophy, Decay, Downfall, Dreadbore and Bedevil. In a couple of months we will absolutely see just how much the WotS/Eld planeswalkers hit this format.
AssTrophy! LOL! Is that a thing now? That's funny!
You clearly don't understand UW control decks in Modern and Legacy!
First giving your opponent a land is the worst thing you cand do in modern. It's like giving them a Time Walk. It's basically a 0 for 2. If you don't understand that than I really don't know what to tell you.
Second there are lots of things I want to answer immediately that I can't in modern or legacy right now. LOTV, Karn Liberated, Wrenn and Six. Just to name a couple. Stuff I can't deal with without countering it outright. I can deal with 4/4 all day. Trust me it annoys the crap out of people.
The fact that it can target and is a good target for a "B mode" is what makes it so good.
The mode terminology was someone else. I just went with it. Ask them about that.
Clearly you don't play much modern or legacy!
First giving your opponent a land is like giving them a Time Walk. Giving them a 4/4 is often better than ramping them.
There are a lot of things I want to answer on my opponents t2 or t3. Why don't I mention the highlights. T2 Wrenn and Six, T3 is a tie between LOTV and Karn Liberated. I'd rather deal with a 4/4.
Using it on Snapcaster Mage would be a B mode/ A&B mode option (if you target another copy with the flashback ability) but Snapcaster Mage would probably be like the only creature in the deck.
2 Mana answers to planeswalkers are Always going to see play in standard!
Yeah, just like Path to Exile's "A mode" was a 1 Mana ramp spell. The decks that want this card have very little to "trade" for a 4/4 flying angel. However they usually don't mind giving you a 4/4 they can get rid of very easily.
More like end of t2 exile whatever you just played. T3 play T3feri and bounce your angel. Draw a card. A mode for this right there.
See, the reason everyone is comparing this to Path or Trophy is because those cards gave relatively minor benefits to your opponent, while this one gives them something much better. My point was that people seem to be assuming "the decks that want this" are the decks that don't play creatures but are lacking cheap removal, and I'm not sure that's the case. I mean, can you imagine exiling their dude, taking a hit from a 4/4, then following it up with a shatter the sky? You're giving your opponent a 3-for-1. You'd have to really value the planeswalker killing aspect of this. Maybe it's worth it, but I'm not sure.
The only way blue/white control is getting rid of a 4/4 flyer "very easily" without ending up down a card is Teferi, as you mentioned, one of the strongest cards in standard that doesn't need any help. What t2 threat are you so eager to exile so that your teferi can bounce the angel? But yeah, I'll give you that this is good with Teferi. I just don't know if that is a reason to run this.
Add it plays better with Snapcaster Mage and doesn't non-bo with Mana Leak and this cards A mode is clearly the destruction mode.
Not sure I follow. Either "mode" of this card plays fine with Snapcaster mage - snappy even gives you the little body to upgrade for the angel, if you're so inclined. Not sure what you mean by either mode of this card being a nonbo (or combo?) with Mana Leak. What are you comparing it to in that regard?
Clearly you don't play modern or legacy at all.
First giving your opponent a creature in non rotating formats just to blow up a creature is like giving your opponent a time walk. Giving them a 4/4 is better because you plan on dealing with those all the time.
There are lots of things you want to kill dead (exile) on any turn of the game. If you can think of a threat in modern or legacy you wouldn't want to answer on t2 or t3 let me know!
It combos well with Snapcaster because it gives you a good target for a "B mode" while being castable off the ability. This isn't the main reason you play it.
The "mode" idea was introduced by someone else. I went with it.
More like end of t2 exile whatever you just played. T3 play T3feri and bounce your angel. Draw a card. A mode for this right there.
Add it plays better with Snapcaster Mage and doesn't non-bo with Mana Leak and this cards A mode is clearly the destruction mode.
I'm probably going to still build a couple of decks because they are really cheap, I'd be less enthusiastic without Brainstorm, Ponder, and Preordain being legal though. As much as haters going to want to hate on big blue cantrips and Delver they are also a draw to other players being in the format in the first place. Also banning flicker effects seem silly to me too. I always love a good Tron ban but are flicker effects really that bad? Sorry if that last line was super ignorant. I'm just used to Tron doing truly terrifying things like T3 Karn and T4 Ulamog!!
It seems more like you have some personal issues with the Hexproof deck. There are honestly too many ways to deal with hexproof creatures for it to be considered a problem. Plus it's a glass cannon! Have you tied running sacrifice effects in your sideboard?
If it at all validates your point shroud the keyword ability was created because it had been written out on so many cards that it had become something of an uncommon evergreen effect and was easier to just write it as a keyword ability. Unfortunately after just a few short years it became apparent that the shortcut of making it a keyword ability was causing an alarming amount of game rules violations because people just kept forgetting NOBODYcould target it and it was often played just like the Hexproof keyword ability of the modern era. After a few short turns the game state becomes completely compromised and the judge starts issuing game loses! They replaced Shroud with Hexproof solely to reduce all the game play violations and to make it play "more intuitively". It is a really stupid reason to change a rule but I can't even accurately describe the level of headaches Shroud cause tournament organizers. After that it turned out that small hexproof creatures with a bunch of enchantments was a viable strategy and had it's fans so they ultimately decided value added. Just an example of why hexproof decks are a benifit to the game, a friend of mine was looking to get into Modern and did not like burn. Hexproof.deck was at the time affordable, intuitive, and simple. It worked out great for him and he really enjoyed it. He's not a great technical player but really enjoys playing magic and Hexproof.dec would probably suit him well in pauper also! I used to feel the way you do until I realized I was just kind of being salty.
I'm not uninformed, I played through all of those standard formats. I strongly believe they are too strong for standard legal sets for the reasons I mentioned above, only one of which you barely attempted to despute. Increased shuffling is the worst argument, I'll give you that. My other arguments are well informed and have experience behind them. Even in Zendikar block people were running 4 and 5 color decks then also. Landfall caused some power level issues as well. They reduce variance in game play and thinned decks or filled graveyards too quickly. Odyssey/Onslaught format ring a ball? I'd say it's been a developmental nightmare since they first printed them. By the way, you can't call someone uninformed and launch a super lame uninformed argument. At least articulate yourself and pose an actual debate! Regardless of my opinion I would say this banning indicates strongly that they won't be printing the fetch lands in a standard legal expansion again. I also believe if they do for some reason do decide to reprint them at some point they will then ban them in Pioneer as well. It is a smart move on WOTC part too! They can't really print more efficient lands, the shocks and fetches already come really close to breaking the basic land supremacy rule for starters. So in an effort to make more land cycles (and other cards that can't compete in other non- rotating formats too but that is a separate related topic) actually have value they would need a format that supplies demand for lands that aren't fetch lands.
Oath of Nissa
Layline of Abundance
Felidar Guardian
*A few of you guys beat me to it!*
AssTrophy! LOL! Is that a thing now? That's funny!